Spare a thought for MACC ATSA's

[Ayr-in-ya-JockStrap]

What happens to MACC ATSA's when NPC finally becomes reality?

Here's my options:

Go to the tower.
Go to the tower.
Go to the tower.
Go to the tower.
Go to the tower.
Go to Scotland and hope you have a job that is more robust than SACTA.
Go to Scotland and hope you have a job that isn't made redundant 5 years later when SACTA comes in!
Get re-employed 6 Months later when ATC System (known as SACTA) fails and then get laid off when fixed!
Go somewhere else!!
Go and kill yourself!!

The last suggestion really is tongue-in-cheek!

Will relocation be part of any redundancy package?

A serious question for those on the wings!!!

Regards to the Barron!!!:D

[Pilsbury Dough Boy]

The staff "north of the border" are only too aware, over the next 12 months, maybe less, the ATSA's are going to be subject to staff reductions. Some maybe posted to MACC!

[Fidgell]

Go and kill yourself!!
The last suggestion really is tongue-in-cheek!

I do sympathise with you but tongue in cheek or not, bit tasteless that mate....

[DC10RealMan]

Ayr-in-your-jockstrap,

I sympathise completely with your position. I am afraid when it comes to people in the ATSA grade, management have no concern about your fears or doubts. They will ignore the situation then when forced to, prevaricate and deliberately mislead you until the technical solution has been found then you will be dumped. This is nothing personal and I am sure that in a few years as tecnology progresses atcos will find themselves in the same position. Heres a radical solution!, there is or will be a surplus of ATSAs so instead of recruiting new staff from outside nats why not give the surplus ATSAs a go at becoming controllers if they so wish. They surely cannot do any worse than the existing students, after all controlling is hardly rocket science is it.

[anotherthing]

I believe a few of TC atsas are in the same position... they will have to move to swanwick, but not all jobs are guaranteed... some will be lost a few years down the line. A bit off if you have to move your whole family, then be 'asked' to take early retirement.

Note the "I believe".... I am not 100% sure, maybe a TC ATSA can enlighten us

[Roffa]

Heres a radical solution!, there is or will be a surplus of ATSAs so instead of recruiting new staff from outside nats why not give the surplus ATSAs a go at becoming controllers if they so wish. They surely cannot do any worse than the existing students, after all controlling is hardly rocket science is it.

I don't think it's particularly radical but it would certainly have my support.

Give me a keen atsa over a uni graduate who doesn't know one end of an aeroplane to another and who is attracted just by the salary any day of the week.

[loubylou]

DC10REALMAN - that's already happening

louby

[DC10RealMan]

Porco,

I am sorry if I mislead you, I was being sarcastic. The point I was trying to make is that nats has existing staff who are familiar with ATC and its environs and are a known "quantity" and are highly qualified who they potentially intend to make redundant. One the other hand they are recruiting external candidates most of whom have no experience and some of whom their motives are suspect (in it for the pay cheque). It is utter nonsense!

[Ayr-in-ya-JockStrap]

I do sympathise with you but tongue in cheek or not, bit tasteless that mate....

Sorry! Did not mean to cause any offence. Just trying to highlight the utter frustration that ATSA's must be suffering.:O

[Ayr-in-ya-JockStrap]

The staff "north of the border" are only too aware, over the next 12 months, maybe less, the ATSA's are going to be subject to staff reductions. Some maybe posted to MACC!
:hmm: Hmm! Not heard this one. What the latest news from the "far north" then?

[Roffa]

Porco,
I am sorry if I mislead you, I was being sarcastic. The point I was trying to make is that nats has existing staff who are familiar with ATC and its environs and are a known "quantity" and are highly qualified who they potentially intend to make redundant. One the other hand they are recruiting external candidates most of whom have no experience and some of whom their motives are suspect (in it for the pay cheque). It is utter nonsense!

Sarcastic or not I still agree with the premise :)

[TATC]

What about those ATSA'a who are ex trainee controllers would you include them in this redistribution of skills. I know of a few who have made enquiries about possibly getting back into the controlling side of things jsut to be told by management that there is no procedure for that sort of thing, and wait for the next trawl for failed trainees.

This next trawl is probably going to be in about 2 years after those succesful from the last one have had time to train, so the effectiveness of giving failed ATCO's another try.

[captainlj]

"Heres a radical solution!, there is or will be a surplus of ATSAs so instead of recruiting new staff from outside nats why not give the surplus ATSAs a go at becoming controllers if they so wish. They surely cannot do any worse than the existing students, after all controlling is hardly rocket science is it."


This is no radical solution, it's a realistic and dam right fantastic idea, and surely money saving for the company as we will now have to employ jumped up uni students who just fancy getting paid to do a job they have no interest in.

Most ATSA's have a huge interest in aviation(otherwise why would they put up with some ATCO's:bored: ) only joking.

But on the serious side, cant someone close to Mr Barron put this idea to him, it'd save a whole lot of upset when people get laid off, plus training could be cut shorter due to ATSA Air Traffic knowledge.


ATSA's get behind this!! :D


Just an idea, no doubt someone will kick the idea back in its place.

[anotherthing]

TATC

one can re apply after x amount of years if one has failed a rating course. Whether one is employed as an ATSA should be neither here nor there as long as the pre requisite (x) number of years have passed.

I for one think we should be looking to ATSAs to apply; they might not make it, but i reckon the pass rate percentile would be higher than for the same number of people just off the street. And the ATSAs would have a bit more insight into ATC, something the new course structures do not, sadly, allow students to achieve.

However, I am sure Barron et al would be against ATSAs applying as they would go to the college on their current pay, hence an ex ATSA trainee would cost more than a £10k + sell the Big Issue to stay alive, off the street trainee.

And therein lies the crux of the problem methinks - management short term outlook - money over results :ugh:

[TATC]

TATC

one can re apply after x amount of years if one has failed a rating course. Whether one is employed as an ATSA should be neither here nor there as long as the pre requisite (x) number of years have passed.

I for one think we should be looking to ATSAs to apply; they might not make it, but i reckon the pass rate percentile would be higher than for the same number of people just off the street. And the ATSAs would have a bit more insight into ATC, something the new course structures do not, sadly, allow students to achieve.

However, I am sure Barron et al would be against ATSAs applying as they would go to the college on their current pay, hence an ex ATSA trainee would cost more than a £10k + sell the Big Issue to stay alive, off the street trainee.

And therein lies the crux of the problem methinks - management short term outlook - money over results :ugh:

I assume by failinga rating course you are referring to failing whilst at the college - I was more thinking of people failing while training at a unit

[anotherthing]

TATC;

I believe if you have failed at a unit, the same applies. If you got as far as a board and failed 3 attempts, I think (though stand to be corrected) that you can try again after 5 years?

This is all off the top of my head - someone else out there may have the figures to hand.

[loubylou]

QWERTY9 - that ATSA's are indeed being encouraged to go for a cadetship - I have heard on the grapevine that this is the case and a few of the ATSA's at my unit are going on cadetships too

louby

[SilentHandover]

As a current ATSA who is due to start college in January I have had huge amounts of encouragement in applying for a cadetship from my immediate line manager and unit management.
Whether this is because they are fed up of having me around or not is another matter though :uhoh: :)

[eyeinthesky]

NPC opens Autumn 2010. It's now Autumn 2006. That gives you almost 4 years to find an alternative. How many companies give you 4 years notice of redundancy?

Face it: If your job is being replaced by a machine, you are redundant. You can either sit around and moan about how unfair it is and hope the company gives you more than statutory redundancy, or you can spend the 4 years training, searching or whatever you need to do to resolve the situation.

ATCOs will eventually be in the same boat if you believe some of the techno experts about the future of ATM.

Retiring into the foxhole to await the barrage..

[Pilsbury Dough Boy]

:hmm: Hmm! Not heard this one. What the latest news from the "far north" then?

with the introduction of SAATS the new Oceanic flight data processing system next tue (18 nov) evening. The Oceanic ATSA staff are going to be reduced over the next twelve months by up to 15 ATSA's. Reduced from 45 to 30. There are also planning to reduce the Airways ATSA's over the next 12 months as well, I don't know by how many. Some of the ATSA's are not old enough to consider VSS a viable option and will have to consider a posting to keep their jobs, MACC vacancies were mentioned to them.

[g m c]

:ugh: i was told january 2010
is autumn breaking news?

[mocoman]

You can either sit around and moan about how unfair it is and hope the company gives you more than statutory redundancy, or you can spend the 4 years training, searching or whatever you need to do to resolve the situation.


Hear ye: Hear ye.......:ugh:

[Bigears]

If this were in the NATS Forum, then I'd bet there would be a free and frank discussion which would 'educate' those in Ivory Towers or centres .......I for one won't enter this debate on an open forum (washing dirty linen in public).

[Widger]

It's not really fair to compare moving to Scotland with those who are being let out of HMP West Drayton on remand and relocated to the Old Folks retirement home on the south coast!

[NO 7]

with the introduction of SAATS the new Oceanic flight data processing system next tue (18 nov) evening.

Ummm I is confused! Well - more so than normal :\ Coz my calendar says Nov 18 2006 is a Saturday. Maybe it will be live whenever Nov 18 falls on a Tuesday? :E

[Air.Farce.1]

:ugh: i was told january 2010
is autumn breaking news?
GM at Scacc says "O" date Jan 2010. :yuk: Now, he will be retired by then ( unless he stays on to 65 ! ), so its no skin off his nose to predict such a date.
Now does that mean the FIR will be open, and not forgetting the canteen, or all sectors fully operational ? :zzz: :zzz: :} .
Personally I would take any date with a pinch of salt !
NATS managers have a track record of incompetence when it comes to "O" dates,(remember Swanwick) and other things too numerous to mention! :confused:
Watch this space.........
:} :}

[Pilsbury Dough Boy]

with the introduction of SAATS the new Oceanic flight data processing system next tue (18 nov) evening.

Ummm I is confused! Well - more so than normal :\ Coz my calendar says Nov 18 2006 is a Saturday. Maybe it will be live whenever Nov 18 falls on a Tuesday? :E

As i said SAATS is being introduced on tue evening 21 nov not sat the 18

[REVOLUTION]

It's not really fair to compare moving to Scotland with those who are being let out of HMP West Drayton on remand and relocated to the Old Folks retirement home on the south coast!

......Why?

[Ayr-in-ya-JockStrap]

Face it: If your job is being replaced by a machine, you are redundant. You can either sit around and moan about how unfair it is and hope the company gives you more than statutory redundancy, or you can spend the 4 years training, searching or whatever you need to do to resolve the situation.

..

What if the ATSA in question is over the cut off age for ATCO training?
I agree opportunities do exist within NATS to specialise, but you are still at the mercy of a promotion board and if you are no good at presentations or interviews (despite being the best candidate for the job) you have little chance.
What if the ATSA in question neither has the money or the time to do further training outside of NATS?

I think your response EITS, is a touch simplistic and a tad arrogant.

Rant complete, getting back to the original point of this thread, with SACTA now delayed (upto five years I've heard) and the company saying they may need to retain ATSAs to keep NODE operational, what are people's thoughts on a MACC ATSA being posted to NPC and then a few years down the line being laid off when SACTA comes online?

I for one believe that a relocation package should be included in any redundancy deal to allow the laid off ATSAs to relocate back to their place of origin.

[Gonzo]

Ayr,

What if the ATSA in question is over the cut off age for ATCO training?

Firstly, there is none due to recent Age Discrimination legislation.

Secondly, ATSAs are deemed to have 'relevant aviation experience', and so there never was an age limit for them.

[Ali Bongo]

I agree opportunities do exist within NATS to specialise, but you are still at the mercy of a promotion board and if you are no good at presentations or interviews (despite being the best candidate for the job) you have little chance.


Surely if you aren't good at presenations and interviews you aren't the best person for the job? :confused:

[eyeinthesky]

QUOTE
a touch simplistic and a tad arrogant.
UNQUOTE

maybe.... (and sorry for the duff gen on Autumn vs Jan 2006. Slight slip of the keyboard).

My point remains: there are several alternatives, some of which you listed in your opening post. If you don't like any of those, you have several years to find another one, maybe outside this industry, which might involve a little time and financial commitment on your part. How many workers at other companies too numerous to mention have that luxury when a decision is made to rationalise, cost-cut or whatever you call it? If you don't want to or feel unable to take that opportunity, don't moan at what you end up with.

Nobody owes us a living!

[BDiONU]

Nobody owes us a living!
Gasp! You mean working for NATS isn't a job for life?! No one told me :ooh:

BD

[Ayr-in-ya-JockStrap]

Surely if you aren't good at presenations and interviews you aren't the best person for the job? :confused:
Ali Bongo, this is an issue that really infuriates me and a lot of others I know. There is one instance I know about where there were several good candidates for a post that required a computer literate person in the very least. The person who was successful couldn't work a calculator! He then upset all of his staff in his charge, sucked upto management and got promoted. That what I call being progressive!

So, no AB, as a MORI poll would put it, I strongly disagree.

[Ayr-in-ya-JockStrap]

[quote=Gonzo;2971031]Firstly, there is none due to recent Age Discrimination legislation.

[quote]

Happy to hear this Gonzo. I hope reality bears the same ideal as the law!

[Gonzo]

It does, actually. I have personally interviewed a candidate who was over the now abolished age limit, and he gave one of the best interview performances I've seen.

[Ayr-in-ya-JockStrap]

QUOTE
a touch simplistic and a tad arrogant.
UNQUOTE


Nobody owes us a living!

Absolutely, but you did make the alternatives sound all too easy. When you are faced with this reality, it is much different from imagining what it must be like. I agree the ball is in our court in deciding our future but we do have an obligation to ourselves (and our families) to campaign for fair severence terms as would any ATCO in the same position!

A final point. When your in aviation, it seems impossible to get a job outside of aviation. Competition for jobs in aviation is fierce. Or, perhaps I am just no good at presentations and interviews!:uhoh:

Aaaargh!!!! SEND ME TO THE TOWER!!!:{

[DC10RealMan]

At Swanwick there is an VN for atco 1 local area supervisors, and apparently they are not getting the "right" kind of people because the "right" kind of .
people will not go through the hoop jumping exercise that the rest of us have to go through for non-atco jobs. So no problem!, they remove the hoop jumping and just go to the old styled interview because they need the "right" people. If this equitable?, I think not but then in nats "all employees are equal, but some are more equal than others" to paraphase George Orwell. One further thing I was recently asked if I had considered applying for a cadetship, I replyed that I would "rather put my **** in a vice" Oh! by the way I am fifty next month!!!!!

[SPRATLEVEL300]

Nurse, the vice please:\

[TATC]

As a current ATSA who is due to start college in January I have had huge amounts of encouragement in applying for a cadetship from my immediate line manager and unit management.
Whether this is because they are fed up of having me around or not is another matter though :uhoh: :)

Just out of interest will you be still be getting paid your ATSA pay while at the college or have you had to take a drop to the 10k salary the abinitios ar eon. Also how di you apply for the cadetship - did you go through your unit management or direct to HR

[SilentHandover]

I applied via the NATS website the same as all other applicants, I am also lucky enough to mark time at my current salary.

[Air.Farce.1]

Ayr,
Firstly, there is none due to recent Age Discrimination legislation.
Secondly, ATSAs are deemed to have 'relevant aviation experience', and so there never was an age limit for them.
So all 60 year old ATSA's can apply for a cadetship ?
Or 64 year olds in 4 years time ?? :}
A piece of cake then and the answer to all the ATSA job worries, and ATCO recruitment problems.................maybe not.....:ugh: :ugh:

[atsatoo]

To silent handover;

Congrats on your course and all the best with it.

Tell me, have you had any gaurantees re - your current post, ie, will it still be there should you fail, will you go to your current unit if you pass?

I have found nothing but 100% support at unit level, but little or non from NATS itself with the prospect of no job if I failed, or a 'posting somewhere, maybe' at best, succesfully putting me off.

With a settled family to support and a reasonable salary with little responsibility as is, I have decided to stay put. For the moment.

Best of luck to you,

[Gonzo]

Yeah, great news SH! :ok:

[SilentHandover]

atsatoo
No such reassurance of a job to come back should I not make it, my current job is being got rid of as I leave even, but as a famous man once said 'He who dares wins Rodders'. I don't actually have any T n C's from the company yet but I understand that the agreement is a job at your current grade, not necessarily at your previous unit or at the same point on the scale.

Gonzo

Many thanks, your reassuring style and smile on my interview day made all the difference :ok:

[atsatoo]

That did actually cross my mind when I posted, sorry to hit you with negative vibes.
Go to it though, with the ATSA experience, sure you'll do fine!!:)

[Gonzo]

And before anyone jumps in claiming favouritism, no, I didn't personally interview SH, my colleague on the day did. Neither of us knew it was SH, just that it was an ATSA from LGW.