EGLL landers on the dep runway.....

[Gonzo]

So there I was in the VCR this morning while TEAM was is progress.

We get 10 DME checks on inbound a/c to the departure runway. (sometimes!:E )

However, we have to protect the Glide Path critical area out to 15 DME.

So what happens if an a/c at 11-15 miles has a bit of a nasty because of a dodgy GP indication.

Who's at fault?

[Tinpot Radio]

After careful consideration Gonzy I would have to say it would be entirely your fault!.....did you really expect any other answer from the dark side?
You agreed to the inbound and then let all those departures taxi through the glide signal!

Anyway, you wouldn't have your "nasty" with another LL inbound because of the lateral separation you should have (even when I'm doing it), but just with the Thames / SVFR traffic underneath. Hopefully with 2 different controllers allegedly monitoring their planes, at least one of them should notice the LL inbound dipping below the glide (note the obvious advantage that I can not be in both positions at the same time!).

About the 10 check - if DEPs did not consistently say "I see the Speedbird" on first answering the phone before anyone can get a word in, then FIN might not consider it such a pointless phonecall and thus be more inclined to make it on a more regular basis - but what the hell do I know, I'm not even valid:}

PS are you going to have a small party when your post and your birth year are one and the same - not long to go now? :ok:

[Spitoon]

Right, up front I'll admit that I don't work LL and I don't know what TEAM is. But. I'm a bit puzzled - were you in LVPs? If not, why are you guarding the ILS critical area? In non-LVP ops surely you would only need to safeguard the sensitive areas. Or have I misunderstood something here?



I know! Should have been the other way round. It's been too long since I had much to do with aerodromes.....

[AlanM]

Gonzzie me old mucker.

Why are you asking us to decipher your inane post and MATS pt2.

Are you saying YOU operated in contravention to the Pt2 or the Pt2 is crap?

Either way, the only people who care/in the poo will be LHR tower. GO SORT.

Tinpot Minor OUT!! :ugh:

[RANT ON]zzzzzzzzHeathrowzzzzzzzboringzzzzzzzzzz[/RANT OFF]


(On a serious note - give us some more clues - was it LVPs - who agreed to it - what does the book say? etc)

[Gonzo]

Woah everyone! :p
By 'nasty' I didn't necessarily mean an airprox.....GP fluctuations on 27L can get pretty extreme, even to the extent of full 'fly up' deflection. Perhaps a poor choice of words on my part.
Spitoon, Tactically Enhanced Arrival Mode is a procedure where we can land up to 6 an hour on the departure runway if inbound delay gets over 20 minutes. Departures from the south of 27L (i.e. T4 departures) taxi through the 27L GP critical area while lining up. Our Part 2 says we cannot do this if inbound aircraft to 27L are within 15 miles from touchdown. In non-LVPs on this config, we safeguard the critical area. In LVPs we safeguard the sensitive area.
Tinpot: Yes, Deps might anwswer the phone with 'I've got the xxx', but the fact that FIN is ringing him is a greast indicator of the ensuing phone call, and an excellent reminder.
Mossman: Agree to what? eh? More clues? How much alcohol have you consumed this evening?????
I did not operate in contravention of the Part 2, no. In my short stint in Deps, I made damn sure all my southsiders were on the runway by the time the inbound got to 15 miles. Of course, that meant my departure rate decreased significantly, and had to field quite a few questions from crews I was holding back for the landers.

[AlanM]

OK OK

what is your point then in asking us who is at fault??

Mr Spink.... you are confusing us..... :=

WHO Agreed to TEAM (assuming your GP wasn't protected.... you don't just get a 10 mile check)

P.S> I can give you the email/phone number for your ops if you want (or pop in and see there "open door" policy down below!)

[Gonzo]

Well :mad: me, you lot are hard work! :p

WHO Agreed to TEAM (assuming your GP wasn't protected.... you don't just get a 10 mile check)

We did, of course. Unless you lot don't have to ask anymore! :eek:

So you think we should safeguard the GP permanently from TEAM approval to TEAM stop? Which this morning, if I'm not mistaken, was 'enhanced' TEAM which is approved for the duration of the whole shift?

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I read this thread with disbelief... IMHO it should be discussed amongst colleagues, not in an open forum because, as usual, it's turning into an unprofessional slagging match.

The 10 mile check was introduced some years back. Prior to that it had been a 6 mile check - not a spoken one but a coded ring on the direct phone line from Approach. Tower controllers in those days were trained to watched the DFTI (don't know what they call it now) and to KNOW where the approaching landers were..... The Air controller would ring and tell Approach if he had traffic which might interfere with the ILS or the #2 Director would advise the pilot that he may experience interference on the ILS. What happened to those simple procedures?

If all this is beyond you all, what's wrong with a note on the ATIS that the ILS on the departure runway may be subject to QRM?

[Gonzo]

HD, I'm afraid the days of informing a/c there will be fluctuations on the GP is long gone.

We have to safeguard the 27L GP as soon as an a/c gets to 15 DME. No questions asked, we just have to do it. It makes 27L deps in TEAM a hell of a job when you might only get 20 miles between inbounds.

Because of the set up of our ATM, with the AFDAS window (new name for the AMA) at the bottom, if you do manage to spot the inbound you might only see it at 15 miles out. Too late to rectify things if you've got a 747 just entering the GP critical area.

[Giles Wembley-Hogg]

Gonzo

When APP ring up to say that they are TEAMing, can't you coordinate that noone is allowed to follow the GP above 2000'? It won't make any difference to the aircraft as we'll still be trying to follow a CDA anyway.

Just my thoughts on where you might like to start your discussion with TC OPS! (I'll let someone else sort out the worries about interactions with the helos!)

G W-H

[anotherthing]

Gonzo

being a mere TC Area guy, I am a little confused..... if the ILS causes such a problem during TEAM, how does the likes of Gatwick (the busiest single runway airfield in the world) manage??

A serious question and certainly not a dig...... I can understand concerns if in LVPs (even I remember that far back to my college days when we did every discipline, unlike the kids now).

HD

Calm down, calm down.

I do not see any unprofessional slagging match happening here and I am sure Gonzo would agree.... the nearest to the mark was tinpot radio, but if you read his post it was said tongue in cheek.....

Maybe you have been away too long and the idea of sarcasm is starting to become a distant memory :E

I agree if things are going to be heated it should be in the NATS forum, but this seems a fairly civilised thread so far, with a little bit of the usual ribbing thrown in for good measure.

Oh Gonzo, just to add my pennys worth, even though I do not have a clue what you are alluding to, I say it's entirely your fault, as you work in the Golden Tower (thats a joke HD!!)

[Gonzo]

There are various options floating around, such as LLZ/DME only, or as you say GP from 2000. For various reasons they never get through the process.

[loubylou]

I don't work at Heathrow -so feel free to disregard this!;)
But if the procedure is that you have to protect the glide from the time an inbound is at 15D, then surely you ought to be getting at the least 20D checks in order to be able to achieve this? It strikes me that by only getting 10D checks then you're not being helped by the procedure:hmm:

Just a thought :p

louby

[Gonzo]

Louby, my point exactly! :D

[Roffa]

There are various options floating around, such as LLZ/DME only, or as you say GP from 2000. For various reasons they never get through the process.

LLZ/DME is what our opposite tower watch usually seem to want when teaming on to 27L.

Works fine in my experience.

[Del Prado]

f the ILS causes such a problem during TEAM, how does the likes of Gatwick (the busiest single runway airfield in the world) manage??

by lining them up from one side of the runway. or if there's something being towed from the maintenance area, tell the inbound they may experience fluctuations in GP!

[Gonzo]

I don't know how the taxiways at KK interact with their GP critical areas. We don't have the problem on 09R, as the displaced threshold means that the GP antenna is further away from the taxiway (holding point S11). 27L however has no displaced threshold, and the taxiway from SB1 is a lot closer to the GP antenna.

[25check]

relevant discussion considering a recent post on another thread!

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=252394

[anotherthing]

Gonzo

thanks for the succinct explanation.

Still your fault though if I have to get LACC to hold out!!!! :E

[Tinpot Radio]

Hey, I only posted because to get things going, the thread was unanswered for over 2 hours (must be a record!).

Unless I am going blind, I can't even find a reference in TC pt2 that says we have to give a 10 check in TEAM, but do it cos I'm told to.

I agree with Louby that a 20 check would solve the problem, but would you want a 10 also as 20 miles is quite a long time away?

Yes, my first post was nothing but "tongue in cheek", however the point stands that with the current rules as they are Air Deps can be the only person responsible as it is only he and not approach who have anything to do with the departing traffic.

Don't worry about Mr M, I think his side of the bed must be up against a wall in his new house!!:(

[AlanM]

But Mr Buckler... if we went on about unsafe or unworkable procedures on here then there would be permanent threads! (and this isn't the best forum for that)

Adam, did you bring it up at last weeks LHR best practice mtg??? (between tower and approach)

[Tinpot Radio]

I don't think the point had occured to the fellow last week.

Must have been a moment of inspiration whilst he was sat with feet on the SUP's desk yesterday!:ok: :zzz:

Anyway, I wouldn't call it an unsafe procedure, just another one of those slightly grey areas that we are so fond of.

TPR

[25check]

Is it just me who is a bit disturbed with the use of identifying names on this thread?

[AlanM]

Just you Geoff.:ouch: You Ealing boys are all the same :)

[Gonzo]

Didn't realise that was you, TPR! :ugh:

It came to me in a flash of inspiration while I only had 35 at the holding point yesterday.

[Dizzee Rascal]

Is it just me who is a bit disturbed with the use of identifying names on this thread?

AlanM never sticks to the rules.............ever!!;)

[Giles Wembley-Hogg]

Just before you all go off topic, I'd just like to make the point that LLZ/DME is not the way forward in my opinion. It takes away a level of safety provided by the G/S, it makes the CDA harder (not impossible, I admit) and if you consider the times of the day TEAMing often starts and how long the crews have been awake by then, hardly the best choice of solution from a human factors point of view.

That is not to say that the LLZ/DME doesn't provide an opportunity for consenting adults, just that I really don't think it should form the basis of an SOP. Duty of care and all that, after all!

G W-H

[Gonzo]

Yes, I agree GWH. To actually turn off the GP signal and not use it, even though fully serviceable, doesn't feel right to me.

[Point Seven]

Gonzo

As your erstwhile colleague at the time of the incident, I mean event, I would suggest that your assertion that the rules need a re-visitation is quite correct. The guranteeing of the GP to 15DME means that, once established within that distance, we in the VCR must ensure signal integrity by not transitting the GP Critical Area. Which current procedures do not fully cover.

And please feel free to ignore the jocks from Thames Radio. I'm sure that your post just carried more interest than the Times crossword or AlanM's latest diet book.

P7

[2miles600feet]

I do believe the last time AlanM took this much interest in Heathrow Approach Control procedures was shortly before he failed to validate them.

[Gonzo]

P7, is something wrong? We seem to be agreeing more and more of late......:}

[AlanM]

Any other sectors incapable of solving their own problems??

Bless them. As if they haven't wasted enough tears on the EFPS/new tower.......

Come along Point Seven - peoples destiny is in your hands... back to the office/drawing board Dale??

Welcome to the NATS the rest of the company has to deal with.:ok:

[Del Prado]

can't approach descend to 3000' and clear for the glide from there?

It's not that much extra work 6 times an hour.

[Tinpot Radio]

P7, I can't even finish the SUN crossword so you have misjudged my abilities by a country mile. Anyway I'm too busy also not validating on your approach to do even the cbeebies daily crossword!

Good point Del Prado - someone gonna raise that a the next Best Practice?

TPR