Land Immediatley?

[The Ferret]

I am updating a Student Study Guide used for training ab intio pilots and am searching for good and unambiguous definitions for emergency actions. Who can help? You all know what you would do (or do you?) in the event of a malfunction but how would you define those actions, for so many eventualities, to somebody who is learning the ropes?

I need definitions for:

:D LAND IMMEDIATLEY.

:D LAND AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

:D LAND AS SOON AS PRACTICAL.

Thanks.

[Say again s l o w l y]

My rule of thumb is that:

Land Immediately means just that. On the ground ASAP. Get it in a field right now, with a mayday call if there is time. Something like a fire.

Land as soon as possible: Get to the nearest runway. It doesn't need to be licensed, but it should be sufficient to land safely. Mayday call would be advisable, though a Pan maybe sufficient. For a problem like a guage malfunction that could be indicative of a potential bigger problem or a slightly rough engine for example.

Land as soon as practical: Land at the nearest suitable airfield. If you have an R/T problem, I wouldn't advise going into a busy international airport, but if there is an uncontrolled field with maintenance support, I would go there. A problem like an R/T issue. The a/c is in no danger if you continue to fly.

[The Ferret]

OK Say Again Slowly - thanks for the response - I am going to play devils advocate now!

Land Immediately - ...on the ground......what if you are over the water or over a huge forest (probably should not be there anyway!)?

Land As Soon As Possible - .........nearest runway............why a runway - what is wrong with a field or even a road if you can make a safe landing?

Do you see the dilema? The words need to be chosen very carefully to meet as many eventualities as possible!

Maybe I should add here that the Student Study Guide is for ab initio HELICOPTER pilots, although the definitions should not vary that much!

Keep them coming!

:cool: :cool: :cool:

[Say again s l o w l y]

You asked the question! I've given you what I consider to be the answer.

If you are over a forest, then as in all things to do with aviation, use your common sense. Are there any tracks that you could gett down on? If not, then just do the best you can, but this is one of the reasons we don't purposely fly over areas that give you little or no chance of survival in the event of an emergency unless we have to.

Land as soon as possible, means what it says on the tin. I consider it less serious than Land immediately.

All these definitions are irrelevant, however, since what we really need is for the pilot to recognise a problem and then take the required actions. This sort of definition doesn't actually mean anything. Engine fire/failure- get on the ground. Structural failure- get on the ground (if possible...) Uncontrollable fire of any kind- get on the ground etc. etc.

Control restriction- try and get to the nearest and biggest runway you can find. ie. land as soon as possible.

Helicopters whilst different to handle are the same when it comes to the decision making process, the only difference being that an unscheduled landing in a field tends to be less of an issue compared to a fixed wing doing it.

[Bravo73]

Ferret,

This is what I teach to my students (rotary) over here in the UK:

LAND IMMEDIATELY - Enter autorotation and land wherever is 'between your feet'. (Only really applicable to engine failure and hence the reason for 'defensive' flying in a single).

LAND AS SOON AS POSSIBLE - Find the nearest safe area (ideally next to a big house with road access) and commence a powered approach. Maybe have a slightly steeper than usual approach angle in case of the need to enter an auto and the resultant approach angle. (The reason for the big house and road is so that you'll be looked after whilst waiting for the engineer to arrive in his van!)

LAND AS SOON AS PRACTICAL - Divert to the nearest airfield (or RTB) where the problem can be fixed. To be used (for example) with hydraulics failure.


I know that these definitions don't really sound very scientific(!) but Robinson and Bell both have their own wordings for the definitions in their respective flight manuals.


HTH,

B73

[18greens]

In a high poulation density area (such as the uk) what is the difference between

LAND AS SOON AS POSSIBLE -
LAND AS SOON AS PRACTICAL .

I can understand the difference crossing Africa or large water expanses where any island will do . But in the UK what is the furthest you can possibly be from an aerodrome with fire engines etc etc. For 99% of trips it must be less than 10 miles (5 minutes). Put another way where is the worst place in the uk to be faced with the dialemma (and don't say Birmingham)?

[tescoapp]

I would say most of scotland further north than the scottish TMA and anything west of P600.

[Bravo73]

what is the difference between
LAND AS SOON AS POSSIBLE -
LAND AS SOON AS PRACTICAL .


Put simply, the time aloft. (See my post above).

'AS SOON AS POSSIBLE' should have you on the ground in less than a minute. 'AS SOON AS PRACTICAL' might have you on the ground in 30 minutes or so.

And just as a reminder, Ferret is after definitions for helicopter operations so we have a few more options when it comes to picking impromptu landing sites!


B73

[Dr Eckener]

I think SAS has given a reasonable response. At the end of the day you cannot train for all individual problems, as the combinations are endless.

What you train people for is to get them to a level where they can make sensible (and safe) decisions based on the situation, their knowledge and interpretation of it, and the assistance available at the time.

I would suggest this type of issue is better for a group discussion, rather than set definitions in a book. The same problem in any given aircraft may be best served by different decisions depending on pilot experience, location, weather, etc, etc. Pilots should always be taught to analyse the situation, gather information, consult (MCC and/or CRM), decide, review, then start the process again until a resolution is achieved. Very few circumstances involve an immediate and irreversible action. If they do then I guess land immediately might be appropriate.

Sorry to be vague, but these senarios are where well trained people are better than machines, so we should be grateful for something.

[ShyTorque]

As soon as practical: Land somewhere preferably nice, comfortable and convenient. The aircraft won't break you, so don't break it.

As soon as possible: Land somewhere convenient soon, before the aircraft breaks. Try not to break it.

Immediately: Forget convenient - it's broke!!

Not sure about the entering autorotation for land immediately - certain emergencies (gearboxes) might get worse very quickly if you do that. :=

[Sven Sixtoo]

The definition of LAND IMMEDIATELY in the RAF Sea King FRCs is (I'm quoting from memory): "Land at once, even if that means, for example, ditching or landing in trees. The consequences of continued flight are likely to be catastrophic." LAND IMMEDIATELY is a requirement for signs of impending double hydraulic failure and for a fire that won't go out. It also appears in the gearbox failure actions, but with a time caveat (so it isn't really IMMEDIATELY at all).
LAND AS SOON AS POSSIBLE is defined as "Do not continue flight further than necessary to achieve a safe, but uhhurried, landing at the nearest suitable site".
Example: with an oil leak, I landed in a field (next to the gate to a tarred road), having taken the time to recce the field (it was dark).
LAND AS SOON AS PRACTICABLE: "land at the nearest aviation location, or at a suitable site chosen for subsequent convenience".

[tescoapp]

I think its all very well giving these technically correct definitions which work for proffesional pilots.

But all of them are relying on someone who is totally competent and has a very high experence level.

I suppose I mean you have taken the person out of the definition.

For example an alternator failure for an Instructor flying in class G VFR I wouldn't say fitted any of them. Master switch off go none radio and turn back on when your 15 mins out from where your going.

Now a fresh PPL I would say that could consitute a Land as soon as possible because the perceived stress of it failing could over load them.


A more sensible way of defining them would be how the pilot felt about the situation. Especially for the level that the definitions are meant for. They will also be as good now as in 10 years with 1000's of hours under your belt. Its just the situation maybe in a different group when your up the eperence ladder.


1. LAND AS SOON AS PRACTICAL. : Something is broke I don't like it I am going home.

2. LAND AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. : Something is broke I really don't want to be in the air.

3. LAND IMMEDIATLEY : I am ****ting myself. They can stick there license up thier bums if they don't like what I do.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Basic handling of emergencies should not be purely the domain of "professional" pilots. Anyone who takes an a/c up should have the basic skills to be able to interprete and diagnose problems.
Just because someone may only fly occasionally, it doesn't absolve them from having the basic skills needed.

The last thing people should be doing in an emergency, is to start making things up. In the airline world we have a few actions that must be from memory, but most problems are dealt with by referencing to a QRH and following what the manufacturer has laid down. Obviously not every emergency is in there and single crew operations are different, but the fundamental principle is that there are certain things you should know and keep yourself upto speed on. Emergency procedures is pretty high up on that list for me and they should be the same for all of us regardless of licence type.

The basic principle of any emergency handling is really, if in doubt, get it on the ground. But with a big caveat, as a lot of accidents are caused by people over-reacting to problems. For example an R22 gets a low voltage light come on, so the pilot throws it towards the ground and loses control and kills themself and their passenger.
The training we should be providing should be that recognition and dealing with problems in as calm and controlled a manner as possible. Whilst it's difficult to truly recreate the fear and panic that can occur when a big problem happens for real, if the training is good enough and the knowledge level is good enough, then these issues should be minimised.
Certainly whenever I have had a problem or emergency, at the time I just followed the drills and the fear happened later when we were back on the ground. Adrenaline just lets you get on with it, but when it goes then you realise the potential consequences, that is when you get the handshaking!

[paco]

Land immediately is no longer a valid expression and has been removed from Bell flight manuals, because people have landed immediately in some stuipd places.

As for the other two:

Land as Soon as Possible. Land without delay at the nearest location at which a safe approach and landing is reasonably assured. That is, do not land in on somebody’s barbecue when there is an empty field next door!

Land as Soon as Practicable. Extended flight beyond the nearest approved landing area is not recommended. That is, land at the nearest airfield at which technical support is available. If none is reasonably close, land where the engineers can get to later

Phil

[tescoapp]

SAS as you worked for Emerald you have proberly had to sort out more inflight problems than most of us will see in our full careers.

The course is for ab intio student pilots. Everyone is giving great answers which we as experenced aircrew would make in a split second. I am going with the good Dr. you need to get them thinking about what sort of feelings they have about a situation that requires a certain action.

The whole point is not to teach them which action to take for every situation.
Its more to start them on the process that experence will teach them in the course of time. They have no experence to tell them what is serious or not. And what might be serious on a solo nav because they are maxed out. 5 years later will be a pain in the arse and gawd forbid might not even get entered in the tech log until the positioning flight home.

hence my light tongue in cheek definitions which everyone can relate to.

The combination of the tongue in cheek and RAF definitions would proberly be the best way forward.

Ferret you can now buy from the RAF all the publications they use for basic pilot training. As well as quite a few advanced subjects. They are pretty dry to read but are written in a very clear cut manner. They might be quite a good reference guide for what you are tasked to do.

[Eff Oh]

If you go down the Boeing route then the phrase is;
"PLAN TO LAND AT THE NEAREST SUITABLE AIRPORT."
However this may of course not be appropriate (forced landing etc) at which point LAND IMMEDIATELY would be used, but then again you wouldn't have much choice in that matter!!!

[ShyTorque]

One can't actually apply a strict "one size fits all" answer to any inflight emergencies on a website like this, or in any general discussion because:

A) It depends on the aircraft type and the relevant flight manual.
B) It depends on the circumstances.

For example, a "Land immediately", for a situation such as loss of gearbox oil pressure and a temperature rise, followed by untoward noises ( :uhoh: ) might well convince a pilot to dump the lever and land in trees. If those trees were small they might present a minor hazard and a risk worth taking. However, over 200 foot high jungle, an attempted immediate landing in treetops would quite possibly be the last thing a pilot ever consciously did.

I've been in a situation where that was an impending option (very loud gearbox / mechanical noises) - I chose to return to a small helipad in a clearing because at the time I thought it preferable to crash near a fire extinguisher and physical help if possible, rather than make a perfectly controlled landing onto treetops, only to fall 200 feet to my death after shutdown. Not a fun day, one I'll never forget, but I'm still here.

[The Ferret]

Thanks for the valuable input - but after much debate here and elsewhere I am going for the following definitions:

:D Land immediately

Continued flight may be more hazardous than ditching or landing in terrain normally considered unsuitable.


:D Land as soon as possible

Land at the nearest site at which a safe landing can be made.


:D Land as soon as practicable

Extended flight is not recommended. The landing site and duration of flight are at the discretion of the aircraft commander

Fly Safe
Thanks
The Ferret:cool: :cool: :cool:

[212man]

The Ferret,
I'd say they are spot on. For info, this is what we have in our EOPs for crew guidance:

LAND IMMEDIATELY
This is self-explanatory. Pilots are to bear in mind that the consequences of continued flight are likely to be more hazardous than, for example, ditching (even in adverse circumstances), or landing in trees. Where the instruction “LAND IMMEDIATELY” is given in a Drill, the procedure for “EMERGENCY LANDING” should be followed

LAND AS SOON AS POSSIBLE
Land at the nearest safe location. Offshore, fly to the nearest suitable landfall or offshore helideck at an altitude and airspeed such that a safe ditching can be made if the abnormal condition deteriorates and an immediate landing becomes necessary.

LAND AS SOON AS PRACTICAL
Extended flight is not recommended. A return to Maintenance Base is the preferred option; if not possible, land at the nearest airfield at which technical support is available. If no such airfield is reasonably close, land at a safe landing site chosen for subsequent convenience. When selecting the landing point, consider the impact of the failure condition on the continued safe operation of the aircraft, and the likelihood and impact of any subsequent failure.


PACO,
I take your point, but think it is more a function of the litigation from a mishandled incident, than the validity of the expression. Another similar example is that Sikorsky don't list 'immediate actions' when clearly some actions do require immediate action from memory. They do use 'Land Immediately' though.

[Davey Emcee]

Sven Sixtoo is spot on:ok: