Ireland - UK, Passport Required?

[TolTol]

Hi all,

I have a friend traveling to UK from Ireland tomorrow morning and returning tomorrow evening. He has just discovered that his passport is out of date, dooh! So I would be ever so grateful if somebody could tell me if some other form of photo id is acceptable. I am aware of the Common Travel Area but I'm not sure if security pays any attention to this.

Thanks.

P.S. Sorry I haven’t time to do a search.

[bear11]

Yes it is acceptable, as long as you're a British or Irish citizen!

http://www.oasis.gov.ie/moving_country/moving_abroad/common_travel_area_between_ireland_and_the_UK.html

[TolTol]

He's Irish so thanks a mill.!

[Shanwickman]

If the passenger is travelling with Ryanair and uses online check in then he
must present a valid passport at security and at the departure gate.
This applies even when travelling between Cork and Dublin!

[Based]

In theory he should be fine with a valid Irish/UK driving licence if he has one - although depends who he comes across at security as to whether he has any hassle or not!

[heidelberg]

The CTA (common travel area) between the UK and ROI dispenses with the requirement for Passport; this is the case since 1922.
Security requirements has nothing to do with it.
A valid - i.e. current - Driving licence with photo is sufficient.
For the record the following extract from the Ryanair site says it all:

'A valid European Economic Area (EEA) driving licence with photo, presented by a passenger whose place of birth is within the EEA is acceptable only for travel on internal flights within the UK, internal flights within Italy and UK-Republic of Ireland-UK'.

[Shanwickman]

If you are travelling with Ryanair and use the online check in facility then you must present a valid passport, even if travelling within Ireland.

www.bookryanair.com/checkngo/cgi-bin/webcheckin.cgi?pos=SBFORM

[TolTol]

Sorry for the confusion, he is not using online check-in. Thanks for all the help:ok:

[heidelberg]

Ryanair confirm by letter to me that - 'if you are born within EU, your drivers licence will be accepted for travel between the UK and Ireland' and 'Ireland/UK domestic routes'.
They make no mention of a passport requirement if you check in on line.

[WHBM]

I am not aware that UK photo licences show place of birth.

As I understand it the requirements are like this :

The 1922 Common Travel Area agreement says no passport required when travelling between Britain and Ireland if you are a British or Irish national. This agreement is still in force. There is a requirement if you are from outside you must show it, but presumably only if requested as when travelling by sea or land (over into Northern Ireland) there are no checks at all and nobody to show it to.

This is still the case when travelling by air from Ireland to Britain. Many UK airports have specially designated channels for "arrivals from the Irish Republic", or just treat such pax as domestic. Not the least is Heathrow where gates 81-89 are always used for Irish arrivals and have no passport checking facilities at all.

The Irish government started, just a few years ago, requesting and then demanding passports at Irish airports on arrival from the UK. This appears to be against the Common Travel Area agreement but that fact seems ignored. It started when continental arriving flights began to be operated into areas of Dublin airport which were previously only used by UK flights, then it spread more generally. It also coincided with signficant numbers of non-Irish nationals coming to Ireland to work, a previously almost unknown situation which seems to have driven a political desire to be seen "checking them".

The boarding checks are a Ryanair feature and are aimed at revenue protection as opposed to anything to do with security. They were devised at Ryanair HQ in Dublin where it was simply said "photo driving licence". I do not believe anybody at Ryanair HQ realised that in the UK, unlike in Ireland, the bulk of driving licences do not have photographs on them.

This last is annoying for many reasons, not the least of which is that if (as happens frequently) my passport is off getting visas in it then I cannot fly on a wholly-domestic flight from London to a customer in Ayrshire, Scotland, Ryanair having the only service to nearby Prestwick airport. Nor can I make a sudden day return trip there from my office to deal with an issue when my passport is at home. These are invariably high fare £200-plus trips on Ryanair for such same day business travel but I get no concession for the substantial extra cost. There are a range of other inconveniences.

[Cyrano]

The Irish government started, just a few years ago, requesting and then demanding passports at Irish airports on arrival from the UK. This appears to be against the Common Travel Area agreement but that fact seems ignored. It started when continental arriving flights began to be operated into areas of Dublin airport which were previously only used by UK flights, then it spread more generally.

This is true in part, although I would say that on a couple of occasions when I've had to come through immigration control in Dublin using my UK photocard licence while my passport has been away getting a visa, there hasn't been any problem.

I do accept, though, that this means in principle "free travel between Britain and Ireland for British and Irish nationals as long as you have a photocard driving licence" which is unsatisfactory - you shouldn't have to change your paper licence to a photocard one (or indeed apply for a second passport) to be able to avail of the Common Travel Area. As for Ryanair, you're quite right that the name of the game is revenue protection rather than security. Getting between them and their revenue is IMHO akin to getting between a lioness and her cubs.

[heidelberg]

The Irish Govt website has the following:
Rules
The Common Travel Area means that there are no passport controls in operation for Irish and UK citizens travelling between the two countries. Since 1997, some controls are in effect on arrivals in Ireland from the UK but this does not mean that you are required to carry your Irish or UK passport with you when you travel between the countries. You must, however, carry an acceptable form of photo-identification, examples of which are:
A valid passport
A driver's licence with photo
An international student card
A national ID card
A bus pass with photo
A Garda ID with photo
A work ID with photo
The Common Travel Area also involves some co-operation on matters relating to immigration issues. An alien, for example, may be refused permission to enter Ireland if it is his or her intention to travel onwards to the UK and he or she would not qualify for admission to the UK under the (Aliens Amendment) Order, 1975.
Irish Immigration Officers have the power to carry out checks on people arriving in the State from the UK and to refuse them entry to the State on the same grounds as apply to people arriving from outside the Common Travel Area. These checks are carried out selectively.
People with UK visas or residence permits
If you are a citizen of a country whose nationals need a visa to enter the State and you have a valid UK visa or residence permit, you are still required to have a valid visa before you arrive in the State. Further information about visa applications can be obtained from the Department of Foreign Affairs or from Irish embassies and consulates abroad.
Link herewith:
http://www.oasis.gov.ie/moving_country/moving_abroad/common_travel_area_between_ireland_and_the_UK.html

[Shanwickman]

WHBM
The Irish Government never asked or demanded passports from Irish/Uk nationals entering Ireland from the UK.
They did ask for some form of photo id to be available for inspection if required.
The matter is very clearly explained in heidelberg's post.

[Globaliser]

I am not aware that UK photo licences show place of birth.I don't know what the position is for a UK-born person (I've never graduated to a photo driving licence) but I know that a South African-born person has South Africa on the photocard part of the driving licence. At a horrendous immigration queue at ORK once, we tried this - but got sent back to the other queue because the immigration officer spotted that - and the person concerned was not then yet a British citizen.

[A2QFI]

I concur with Globaliser. My country of birth is on the plastic photo card bit but is not mentioned on the paper bit so if you are still using the paper only licence you would/should be OK.

[SXB]

The whole thing with passports is a bit of a red herring, for sure a passport isn't needed to travel from UK to Ireland for those nationals, in fact a passport isn't needed for all travel within the EU and a whole host of other countries, all you need is a nationally issued ID card. The passport complication arises because UK citizens don't have ID cards. As many have pointed out you just need valid photo ID, in the case of travel between UK and Ireland, and it's just coincidental that a passport is also a valid form of photo ID, it's just for most Brits it's the only photo ID they may have.

When travelling around EU (schengen or not) I never take my passport, my French ID card is sufficient.

[WHBM]

.......all you need is a nationally issued ID card. The [passport] complication arises because UK citizens don't have ID cards......
Logic very appropriate to an Irish thread !

[Shanwickman]

WHBM
So when your statements re Irish government requiring passports were proved incorrect you introduce a touch of racism?

[heidelberg]

I thought every EU country uses the 'European Communities model' driving licence which incorporates -
(a) photograph and
(b) states your country of Birth.
Whilst a driving licence is NOT a National ID it is sufficient for travel between UK/IRL/UK and domestic flights within the two aforesaid countries.
Am I correct in thinking the UK driving licence does not conform to the 'European Communities model' and has NO photo? This is what I gather from the reply by SXB.
Frankly I am all for a European wide ID which would be accepted as valid ID for travel within all EU countries.
However it is true the UK authorities insisted on Passport control and the Irish followed on because of the land border between N.Irl and the ROI.

I disagree with my government on this issue.
After all, we broke from the Sterling currency in the 1970's and embraced the Euro since.
And I believe it did us no harm!

[Pax Vobiscum]

Am I correct in thinking the UK driving licence does not conform to the 'European Communities model' and has NO photo? This is what I gather from the reply by SXB.
New or replacement driving licences in the UK conform to the European standard, but these old licences were typically valid to age 70, so if you don't change address, there's no need to get a new 'photo id' driving licence. Hence there are still many old (non-EU standard) licences in use.

[SXB]

Heidelberg
PV is spot on, a new DL will conform to the Euro model. I'm still carrying one of the old green licenses, on the few occasions I've had to produce it the French authorities have looked at it with some suspicion. Because of my status I can't swap it for a French one and I can't have a new UK version because I no longer have a UK address.

Frankly I am all for a European wide ID which would be accepted as valid ID for travel within all EU countries.

This already almost exists, if you have a national ID card then you can travel to almost every country in the EU and a whole host of others. Even those countries which do not have national ID cards, like the UK (don't know if Ireland has ID cards), accept cards for border entry rather than passports. Within Schengen most border controls have gone but we are still obliged to carry our national ID cards and here in Strasbourg you often see the Police randomly stopping vehicles at the border with Germany. They get around the regulations by saying it's just a regular document check and it's coincidental that it's taking place at a border crossing (in most european countries the Police can randomly stop vehicles and/or persons to conduct a document check though not in the UK though of course)

[heidelberg]

The UK and ROI do NOT have National ID cards - more's the pity.
Of course some would see it as an invasion on their privacy/human rights!

Do those people within the Schengen countries feel it is an invasion on their privacy/human rights? I doubt it.

I wish the Uk and Irish governments would introduce National ID cards.
This would resolve for all EU citizens the necessity of carrying a Passport EU for flights to/from UK/IRL and the rest of the EU.

[SXB]

I wish the Uk and Irish governments would introduce National ID cards

Agreed. The problem isn't the ID cards themselves but the rules under which you would have to produce such a card, such as if a police officer stops you in the street and simply asks to see your card, should he have to suspect you've broken the law to have the right to see your card ? I still have that UK mentality of not carrying all my documentation on my person. I have a car with diplomatic number plates and I was stopped by the police about two weeks ago for a minor traffic offence (it's a myth that such number plates allow you to ignore traffic regulations) and I was asked to produce my driving license, insurance certificate and appropriate ID for driving a diplomatic vehicle and I was unable to produce any of them. I received a penalty and had to produce said docs in 24 hrs, if I hadn't been able to recite the number plate of the car from memory I suspect I would have been in serious trouble.

Some people object to ID cards on the grounds of data protection though you can rest assured that the govt. already has all your details (passport agency, DVLA,DVLC, National Insurance, Inland Revenue etc etc) and I'm sure it's shared via different agencies.

On the continent you have a legal responsibility to carry an ID card and if you're driving a car you have to carry a whole load of other documentation whereas in the UK you don't have to carry anything, even when driving. Changing peoples habits is going to be very difficult....