QF S/O gripe site

[outback jack]

Ok, who can reveal the QF second officer site that gives us a run down on all the wonderful Captains they get to fly with. A google search dosnt lead to anything!!

[altocu]

Too late Outback Jack.

It was closed down last week after the Deputy Chief sent out the letter saying that he didn't want to stand next to anyone in a Qantas uniform who had contributed to the site. :rolleyes:

[ContactMeNow]

Ok, who can reveal the QF second officer site that gives us a run down on all the wonderful Captains they get to fly with. A google search dosnt lead to anything!!

So word has gotten out already.....news travels fast!

Same, A Google search didnt reveal anything....Although the website Captain something Captain may ring a bell (again nothing on Google) :E

[Capt Fathom]

Goooone!
A well frequented site amongst GA types, but obviously a well kept secret in QAN.
No respect or manners left in this day or age!
Be it GA or Airline for that matter!! :ugh:

[whogivesa????]

Sounds like the captains couldn't handle the truth.

[Capt Claret]

Fancy Captains being the subject of non-adulatory comparisons. :eek:

Is there a web site where the captains amongst us can compare notes on the first and second officers we fly with?

Rest assured, for every foible a captain displays, non-captains display equally. :cool:

[Continental-520]

Hey, bearing in mind that I know nothing about working in airlines (like most things), can someone in the know cut to the chase and maybe give me some idea of why they (the wonderful Captains you get to fly with) are so bad?

I would've thought they'd be good role models...with a lot to teach/show you. What makes them so 'wonderful'?


Just curious. PM me if preferred.



520.

[DEFCON4]

Having a beer in LAX heard a Captain proclaim proudly that he hadnt spoken to a S/O for 16 sectors.
When asked about CRM..."its total BS" was his response:{

['aveagoodknight]

May I add that, as a LAME who came up from G.A. to the airlines, without exception in my organisation, the Captains are great to work with, and I only find the rare ego attitude from some green F.O.s

:ok:

[king oath]

Let me tell you there are some dead set tossers among the F/O-S/O brigade, just as there are some really good blokes/girls also.

The ones who amaze me are a few who regulary post anti company sentiment on Qrewroom under their own names. Good luck when they have a small operational problem one day, or go for that command after years of waiting. They will want to be perfect human beings.

Might be a good idea to start looking for a job somewhere else that suits better.

[Jetsbest]

Are you suggesting that anyone's expressed opinion might influence their subsequent training outcomes or the company's implementation of its obligations under the pilot's agreement?

I don't condone slander and/or mischievous deception to skew preceptions. I can't condone 'sickies' and slackness etc as a reaction to company conduct. Evidently neither does QF if the anecdotes of people who've been called to account for their views after putting them on qrewroom are to be believed. But in the current 'climate' is it so surprising that some express largely concerns, largely unaddressed by management, about their prospects?:hmm:


ps I'm not saying you're wrong about 'dead set tossers' either, but to me we all fall into the statistical averages of humanity in general; it's really not rank dependent. Some are just pi$$ed that the S/Os had the technical wherewithall to make it happen and wish they'd thought of it first!

[rammel]

You would have to wonder at the judgement of some people if they constantly bag the company on a company hosted forum, using their own name.

[The Riddler]

It was closed down last week after the Deputy Chief sent out the letter saying that he didn't want to stand next to anyone in a Qantas uniform who had contributed to the site

What right does this wa#ker have to silence employees. Typical intimidation tactics over junior crew from the mighty levels of the QF Captains Club.

What is good for the goose is good for the gander. Why is it accepted for (some) QF Captains to treat S/O's like crap yet they cannot handle it when it comes back their way.

What loyality & sense of pride (sorry, the word is engagement) this must instill in those that are the future of QF.

[CaptCloudbuster]

You would have to wonder at the judgement of some people if they constantly bag the company on a company hosted forum, using their own name.
only problem is it isn't.... QREW ROOM is run privately by an AKL commuting Capt. Last time I looked Australia was a free country... however I accept things are changing rapidly:oh:

[Capt Fathom]

What right does this wa#ker have to silence employees. Typical intimidation tactics over junior crew from the mighty levels of the QF Captains Club.
I guess as their boss, he can dish out the discipline that he sees as appropriate. It's just a pity these days, that the me me, now now brigade shows little respect for anyone in authority, be it the boss, police, teachers or parents, (or captains).

[Keg]

You would have to wonder at the judgement of some people if they constantly bag the company on a company hosted forum, using their own name.

This is from the Qantas On Board Managers course.

Many management programs cite the willingness of the follower to tell the truth as the single most important characteristic of follower. It is in the best interests of the crew that an effective follower shares his or her best counsel with the person in charge of their applicable work group. This could be the Captain for safety related issues of the CSS or CSM for service related issues. From a leader’s perspective, silence- not dissent- is the issue to be avoided. It is ironic then that the follower who voices dissent in an appropriate manner and who may face possible retribution (from an insecure or ineffective leader?) is showing exactly the kind of initiative that effective leadership is made of.

I've always found it interesting section of the course.

Riddler, you make some decent points but unfortunately you haven't read the letter and so you're missing some fundamental things. DCP made it very clear that he was writing the letter as a QF driver and not as DCP and that it was a personal opinion and not a company one. Therefore no company intimidation involved.

As with everything there are two sides to this to this letter. The S/O site is just an IT solution ot the old grape vine as to the habits and traits of some of our crew- I understand that some F/Os and S/Os cop a slagging on the site too. I've never see the site though.

There are a couple of other things but I need to go and pick up mini-Kegette from school.

[Grivation]

It would kinda suck being an S/O - let 'em have a whinge I say!! :D

[distracted cockroach]

Overheard recently in Australian airspace (SYD from memory).....open mike sound followed by an angry voice "xxxx this is the Captain. Can you go to crew rest and find out what the S/O is up to. His rest period ended 6 minutes ago..." This elicited various replies on frequency along the lines of "yeah, you run a tight ship", "give him a pay cut", "give him a pay rise" etc. No-one said the obvious though.."if his name is Warren, just leave him alone!"

[podbreak]

Outside of work S/Os and F/Os should be entitled to express their opinions amongst themselves, in the absence of any real system to address these issues, which is what this appears to have been. Many captains are unapproachable about poor CRM. I strongly believe respect goes two ways, if my fellow crew member (junior to me or otherwise) is to give me respect, I owe them equal respect. Just because some folks aren't allowed to land the machine doesn't mean they are useless young wippersnappers. I think this site should have been ringing alarm bells with mister chief, it has sprouted from a sub-culture of certain skippers who have bad CRM and make themselves unavailable for constructive criticism. Yes some S/Os and F/Os are whingers, and many are far from perfect themselves, but its commonplace for a skipper to put them back in their box (most of the time in a constructive beneficial manner). There is next to no reciprocation of this (aside from those with enormous testicles). If the deputy chief wanted to better the company, he should have used this information to improve CRM amongst ALL crew, instead of muting the ones with least authority.

[Pete Conrad]

Ah Wazza......the Jetstar guys have taken that mantle now!

[International Trader]

Heard on the grape vine....ie ,it's tr-e; before ExAnsett pilots joined QF , the sum total of CRM in there manuals was..." If any crew member is aware of any..blah,blah, blah.., he is to bring it to the attention of the captain".
AN Ex Ansett CRM intsructor put some colour in their paint box.

I "hear" that that were shown a copy of the Ansett CRM program and ran away with it claiming...."We have a new and radical idea, a "world's best practice" concept that will continue to show that we are the " world's best....blah,blah,blah".

If only they made the discovery before QF 1 at BangKok.

Sorry, that didn't happen.Did it?

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

You heard wrong IT.

P.S. This was the same groundbreaking CRM that had an AN 747 landing without a nosewheel in Sydney?

See how easy it is to throw out mindless insults?

[engine out]

We should all face fact, aviation is full of pricks and wierdo's. Some occupy the left hand seat, some occupy the right, some sit in the back, others are instructors, charter pilots, many of them are management or company owners and each has their own reason. We naturally back stab each other and cant wait for an oppurtunity to bring each other down, usually for own benefit. It doesnt seem to matter if you work for Qantas, Jetstar, Virgin Blue, Regionals or in GA, the assh&^es are everywhere and you will have to work with them at some stage. Frankly if you want to suceed grow a thick skin and learn to laugh it all off.

[neville_nobody]

Gee some of these blokes are cutting off their noses in spite their faces as not all SO's are the cadet type. There are more than just a few of CX FO's, F18 pilots, wing commanders, Eastern/REX Captains FO's etc etc most of whom are quite humble about their background. Only a fool would think that a SO cannot contribute something to the crew.

IT that is not true. QF had internal CRM courses going in the 80's and onwards.

This whole thread says alot about how good Qantas' recruiting methods are doesn't it?! :E

[GolfTangoVictor]

Perhaps some are born with an ego that outweighs their ability, and become angry when they are put in place by greater maturity and experience?:rolleyes:

Perhaps some of those inhabiting positions of responsibility have grown an ego over their career that prohibits them from remembering what it was like to inhabit a lower rung?

There's always a different spin on a situation, and I can understand that the airline would prefer to have this information removed, so I dont blame them...

It doesnt mean I wouldn't have minded reading it ;)

[podbreak]

[quote=The_Cutest_of_Borg;2953489]
P.S. This was the same groundbreaking CRM that had an AN 747 landing without a nosewheel in Sydney?
[quote]

Said event infact kicked off AN's CRM program properly. After this event CRM at AN took a turn for the best, and those who were involved post this event will know that AN's CRM program was groundbreaking. Many things came out of this. It was AN's attempt to rush the 747 program that led to the massive holes that resulted, it worries me that other operators in Oz are quick to forget the lessons of the past. Rushing implementation of a new type is playing with fire. Back to the point, much of QFs operational culture has traces from AN.

[Transition Layer]

I'm already missing that website - was one of the best laughs I had in ages!

How am I sposed to know whether to take my bloody jacket to work today or not!

On a serious note, it was interesting that for every negative comment made about certain captains, someone generally had something positive to add (of course there are a few obvious exceptions!).

I read a couple of them thinking "that's bollocks, he was great to fly with, easy to get along with etc". Just goes to show that in most cases it was all about personality clashes between certain individuals rather than some bloke being and out-and-out w*nker.

TL

[blueloo]

TL - you are right - sometimes you get along great with guys who are regarded as odd....

....but by gees there are some weird nutters in QF....cant use ACARS - it costs to much......you came back from your break 1 minute late......wheres your jacket.......please spend the next 60 minutes justifying your fuel order.......the random middle of the night pop quiz.....


Some very very sad individuals, I thought the website was great (free speech and all that)- some of these guys (Capt/F/O/S/O) need a reality check.

[Bolty McBolt]

I am very dissapointed that I didn't get to see this web site.

It would be very interesting to compare notes to see if the same Captains that S/Os object to are on my F.U.A.D list :ok:

[DutchRoll]

Yeah I'm disappointed I didn't see it too. However, can I be so bold as to say that I believe the DCP made a gregarious blunder in sending out his letter to all 2300 or so QF pilots? All they've done is talk about it and who may have been mentioned non-stop ever since! All the company had to do was approach the website owners accompanied by a company lawyer and it would've been taken down in no time at all, without fanfare (as I believe actual names were mentioned, it could probably fall squarely into the libel bag).

On the general topic of d#$*head captains, f/os and s/os, no rank is perfect. My experience in flying with all QF ranks is that 90% of the guys are fine, maybe 8% of them are a bit odd, and perhaps 2% test the bounds of my tolerance (which are actually very, very wide). The only difference with a Captain falling into the latter category, is that unfortunately he is running the show and that can lead to or exacerbate other problems.

TL is absolutely right. In the majority of cases I've observed or heard about, it seems to be a straightforward personality conflict.

[Keg]

IT is actually partly right.....and also partly wrong.

There was a time when the sum total of the CRM chapter in the QF FAM was 'Captains are expected to utilise all aspects of CRM in the operation of QF aircraft'- or words similar to that. This was about a decade ago. The training was considered to be about 'industry average' at the time according to my research in the area. It did decline towards the end of the '90s until QF1 and the subsequent audits started to bring it toward sharper focus. Beginning with Mike Hawke the standard of training and the content improved dramatically although I did lament to Mike on a number of occasions that if we wanted to do CRM properly- rather than just the token effort we (as required by CASA) devoted to it- that it would take about double the time (6-8 hours instead of 3) and probably smaller groups and therefore more facilitators. The budget never stretched that far- and that was never Mike's fault because I know he pushed hard for the CRM department. We also lamented at the time about the lack of teeth to CRM in the FAM and John Capaldi (the ex RAAF and AN crew member that ITalludes to) was the man on the spot to beef up the FAM in that area. We now have a policy that articulates more clearly the obligations placed on both senior and junior crew and give the subordinate crew something to shove in the senior persons face (be they another S/O, F/O or skipper) if they ark up at the subordinate speaking up. That said, it only articulates what the expectation had always been- as stressed through previous recurrent CRM courses, simulators, initial CRM courses and so on. It also articulates what I had (mostly) experienced when working QF flight decks over the years. Ninety percent of guys got it and didn't need the policy and it was just there so that we had something to 'fight back' with for the 10 percent that didn't.

I still lament that we don't have the budget to extend to a more in depth CRM course. There are certainly better courses out there but they 'cost' and it isn't cheap. We'd be looking at two CRM facilitators a day instead of one and we'd be looking at the 6-8 hours rather than 3. I can see the 'value' in them. Unfortunately they are VERY confronting courses and they would likely create some degree of angst with some crew. Given the increased cost I'm not suprised that others wouldn't see the value in them at all- especially given that I know of some who seen no value in the 'cost' of CRM courses as it stands currently.

[Scooter]

Good posting Keg but if I may add to this, CX has/had a few tyrants similar to QF over the years.

The Deputy Chief Pilot of Qantas is right in some respects, but fails to recognise that in the real world respect is earned, not demanded.
He seems to come from an era (probably an ex cadet) where S/O's were mistreated and had little respect from what were probably ex WWII drivers that did it tough so to speak.

To make comments about not standing next to one of these contributors seems tantamount to the fact that some of his minions fail to practice CRM at all...........and how dare they use their ingenuity to share their experiences with other S/O's !!

You just cant force CRM down the throats of some of these guys and all management knows it only so well.

I hate to disappoint the QF Deputy Chief, but things have changed since the 60's/70's.
There are more opportunities and avenues available to vent their grief and frustration thanks to modern technology.

If I had a problem I would always speak my mind and make my opnion known.
A beer with the relevant crew member was a good way to discuss things but if I got no joy I would talk to the relevant fleet/training pilot that would give advice and counsel.
That way all parties are aware of what is happening.

In my opinion, if the DCP of QF was an effective manager he would be trying to listen to these S/O's as to what is really happening at the coal face and sort out some of these well known problems rather than expressing his disgust and outrage.
If they fostered an open door policy without the stigma of being labelled a whinger then maybe it would never have come to this.

"How dare a Qantas pilot complain about mistreatment!!! In my day we just took it like a real man and went for a beer...."

The last thing that makes me think twice about this supposed "letter of outrage" is why the DCP is writing this letter rather than the Chief Pilot himself?

Care to comment?

[GaryGnu]

The contrast between the approaches of the Chief of Army and the QF DCP to online comment by their subordinates is quite stark.
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/general-defends-underground-army-website/2006/10/21/1160851184506.html
The CA intervened to keep access to the site avilable at work and values the input the soldiers make online. Whereas, the QF DCP in effect demanded the offending site be closed down and questioned the integrity of those who created and used it.
To be fair, I haven't read the army gripe site nor the QF one, I doubt the army troops were directly commenting on the competence or personality of their officers.
In this information age I suspect that as one such site is closed down another will pop up. Just ask the music industry how successful that approach is.

[Keg]

Ah yes, there have been a number of crew who have pointed out the contrasting manners of both CA and DCP. As Gary points out there is a significant difference between questioning the equipment you've got (and the capabilities of those who do the ordering) and directly commenting on immediate superiors.

However I think the correct response by QF should be to acknowledge a few home truths.

1. QF has captains that are obviously so far outside the 'norms' that the rest of us operate by that they are talked about. This web site was just a new way of doing this. Previous versions include the bar, the telephone, CRM days (no names normally though) and any other place where more than one pilot was present.

2. The fact that crew continue to use the grape vine and don't utilise the chain of command could indicate that many crew have little faith in the chain of command to either pay attention or do anything about it if it is used.

Having made those acknowledgements the correct responses would be to actually have a look at our crew who are outside the 'norms' and try and ensure that crew have confidence in the system they have to speak up about crew that are outside the norms.

I'd like to consider a letter to all crew in response to my colleagues to address some of the reasons why such a web site would exist to start off with. Unfortunately I feel that would put a very large target smack in the middle of my chest- larger and more difficult to hide than the small one which is already there which I do manage to hide most of the time. Perhaps is the most significant issue of all and highlights the different between the approach of people like CDF and CA compared with QF. :(

Perhaps it also says something that I'm very conscious that many in QF know who 'Keg' is and that even by posting this the target may have gotten bigger and harder to hide already. My crime is not so much in what I think but that I have the temerity to say it. Some would also consider it a state crime that I chose/choose to say it here and keep it all in house. For those that do think I've stepped over the line then you obviously weren't listening over the past few years when I have been saying stuff in house.

[ITCZ]

It is interesting to hear the reaction of QF to a discussion site/forum for employees.

First of all it is interesting that your DCP can 'have a bet each way' by saying that his communication was about a personally held opinion, not as DCP.

Though they might not be able to articulate it, most of his colleagues/employees would recognise that there are very few people in this world that can effectively separate their person opinions and beliefs impacting on their official roles. Maybe he is one of the few that can, but he is still the DCP and apart from the very courageous, who would want to put themselves on his bad side?

The lads and lasses at national joke have had their own mini-pprune running for almost two years, driven by the equipment change to 717 and the learning/operational challenges and the industrial/lifestyle/people management issues that resulted. Their management are aware of it, and are very wary of it because they dont have access to it, but accept that it is there. The top man at flight ops even begrudgingly admitted that it probably does the company good service because it keeps a lot of whinging and rubbishing off Pprune!

The conundrum with professional aviation is that it is seen from outside as a high-tech industry, but once inside it has operational cultures that disappeared from other industries a long long time ago. It is very hierarchical, very change resistant, favours seniority and minimum performance standards against merit, high achievement and talent, and ties itself up in SOP, , three levels of legislation, bidding rules, rostering rules, promotions protocols etc. Not surprising when it borrowed the core of its cultures from maritime traditions and the average australian ATPL is 45 and apart from pulling beers as a wannabe, has spent most of their working life in aviation.

It must be very confronting for people that 'played the game' of seniority, waiting your turn and biting your tongue to now see a new generation of tech savvy 'kids' creating virtual 'pubs' to get together and have a bitch.

Whether it is a website, a blog, a crew bar in Thailand or coffee at the Ettro in King Street, these SO's have been doing what junior officers have been doing for centuries. I am told that the Royal Navy even has a tradition dating back from before Trafalgar - it is poor form for a Captain to enter his ships' officers wardroom. Crew need to let off steam and will bitch and moan and criticise the captain. Interestingly, it is often the place where the junior learns of a few more wrinkles about the job that he/she had not considered.

For any captain of any 'ship' to bark about whispers from junior officers is getting just a bit precious. It is part of the territory and was that way for years before you came into the job; if you feel offended, just count the stripes on your shoulders and take another look at the pay packet.

The first step in effective CRM, hell in anything, is accepting that you might not be the perfect captain/crew member/human being. An airline company that puts three or four bars on your shoulders is not the Queen tapping you on those shoulders with the Royal sword knighting you. It is a commercial operation putting you into a particular job. Prohibiting dissent and criticism will be as effective as the US prohibition of alcohol in the 1920's... it wont work, so build a bridge and get over it!!

[Johhny Utah]

Two words. FRAGILE. EGOS.

e‧go  /ˈigoʊ, ˈɛgoʊ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ee-goh, eg-oh]
–noun, plural e‧gos.
1. the “I” or self of any person; a person as thinking, feeling, and willing, and distinguishing itself from the selves of others and from objects of its thought.
2. Psychoanalysis. the part of the psychic apparatus that experiences and reacts to the outside world and thus mediates between the primitive drives of the id and the demands of the social and physical environment.
3. egotism; conceit; self-importance: Her ego becomes more unbearable each day.
4. self-esteem or self-image; feelings: Your criticism wounded his ego.
5. (often initial capital letter) Philosophy.
a. the enduring and conscious element that knows experience.
b. Scholasticism. the complete person comprising both body and soul.
6. Ethnology. a person who serves as the central reference point in the study of organizational and kinship relationships.
[Origin: 1780–90; < L: I; psychoanalytic term is trans. of G (das) Ich (the) I]
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.

[Chimbu chuckles]

What else would you expect from a group who sat around at an ops meeting for the A380 and seriously debated whether they should wear 5 gold bars:ugh:

I am reliably informed this actually happened:uhoh:

[Johhny Utah]

Sure - I bet they decided to do that; after all, why stick with decades of tradition...?

I call BULLSH!T on that one Chuck.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Possibly.

It was apparently an adgenda item for a meeting.

My reaction was "NO WAY you gotta be ****ting me":eek: ...but he was adamant.

They already have scambled eggs, 4 bars and a star after all:ok:

[Night Watch]

Have been reading through this thread and thought i would add my 2 cents.

A few years ago my best mate got into QF.... at the same time i got into CX. Needless to say we were both very happy. I was more then happy to move overseas as i had already spent a lot of time outside of Oz (PNG), however i did get a lot of S hit from my best mate. Most of it was because i was to potentially spend the rest of my career based outside of Australia.

What a difference a few years makes! Now as an FO and only 4 years to a command, I'm spending as much (if not more) time in Oz then he does as an SO. He is still 3-4 years from an upgrade and miserable....

My question to all those still in Oz.... why persist with an industry (albeit in a beautiful country) that is completely :mad: ?

This is not a QF versus CX post..... there are many great places to work within the region. My point is.... don't be closed minded, QF is not a career airline anymore. there are other options

[Keg]

I may bag QF when I reckon they deserve it but I'll stand up for them when they cop flack for stuff that they don't deserve.

What else would you expect from a group who sat around at an ops meeting for the A380 and seriously debated whether they should wear 5 gold bars:ugh:
I am reliably informed this actually happened:uhoh:

Chimbu, Johnny is right on this one. Your story is a distortion of the reality. A couple of very tongue in cheek comments. I can give you a few more that have bandied around the place.

The captain won't actually do the driving on approach but sit behind the F/O and S/O and just make the decisions a la the Starship Enterprise. (That's actually something worthy of further discussion for future airliner development IMHO)

Crews will be issued two uniforms to fly it. One they wear on to/from the aircraft and the other they wear on board. This is due to the length of sectors and so on. The onboard uniform consists of a screen printed tie, wings, gold bars and even a red square where we can have our photo screen printed in as the ID. A mate had them made up and I have one sitting in my cupboard at the moment. I even wear it on board.

Pretty easy to spin that second one in a negative way but it's all come about from some very tongue in cheek comments between me and my crash buddy during 744 conversion. (I actually use the t-shirt as a laugh as my 'crew rest' top to avoid having my work shirt look like crap when I get off the aircraft!) :}

[neville_nobody]

The idea of the captain sitting behind the crew aka Submarine style is something that is being seriously bantied around academic circles. There is a school of thought suggesting that the captain should be monitoring the machine whilst the crew then does the "stick and rudder" side of things.

[Victor India]

This concept is already in place in RAF Maritime operations on the Nimrod I believe. "Mission Commander" so to speak is a Taco (Navigator) type who sits down the back amongst the crew. Front end guys drive. Very simple and effective apparently.

When the flying side of things gets very busy, it allows the Commander to remain somewhat "Head Free" and make bigger picture decisions without the load of keeping the aircraft under control.

Of course there will be arguments about the applicability of such a concept to civil airline operations. I'm not suggesting that it is directly transferrable, but the concept is probably valid in principle with some modification.

I reckon the reason it is done this way is because the Maritime crew frequently experience much higher workloads than the typical airline crew flying 12 hours from A to B. Most of the time, it works fine that the airline Captain is in the LHS but what about when the sh*t hits the fan and workload is immense? Probably more effective discharging one's statutory responsibilities as a Commander from somewhere other than the front seats...

The other obvious factor is that many military operations have >2 pilots anyway, so there is always a spare (copilot) who could sit in the front seat. With many airline operations manned by two pilots, this discussion is a waste of time. And carrying an extra for this purpose would be deemed both too expensive and impractical on smaller flightdecks.

VI

[Chimbu chuckles]

Keg I had thought it was as you suggested...a tongue in cheek joke that got out of hand...but then agan;)

And this is a rumour network:ok:

As to the captain sitting back from the front as in Star Trek?

Long way off yet methinks...another not in my life time deal that I'll not waste any time worrying over...how it quite fits with the reality of day to day airliner ops and the MPL is an interesting thought experiment for those 'acedemics' who never leave their closeted surrounds.:ugh:

I would think that there is a vaste difference between 'mission' commander and aircraft commander in the P3 style mil ops. I would suggest when ****s are trumps the mission commander sits on his hands and lets the aircraft commander get on with it.

[Ron & Edna Johns]

Ah yes. No doubt it is the ACADEMIC circles discussing the idea of seating the Captain behind while the junior pilots fly the CAT 3 approach into a pea-souper, or the night approach with horizontal rain, a 25 kt crosswind, cloud at minima and a wet runway awaiting. Oh, and chuck in a thrust reverser locked out as well, and a speed brake that fails to extend when it should, just for a bit of a challenge. Yep, academic circles it would be, because circles comprising REAL PILOTS would never entertain or discuss such drivel..... :ugh:

[neville_nobody]

Not so Chimbu. There are academic papers and magazine articles at present which are arguing for the complete opposite to what you are saying. Captain sits there monitoring the single engine ILS to the minima, whilst FO Bloggs who has just graduated from his MPL course, flys the thing.

The idea has some merit if both crew members are experienced, however if you start looking at bare minimum time FO's flying an emergency proceedure, I don't think it's good idea.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Appologies for thread creep.

Now you're talking a different thing altogether. Monitored approaches to Cat 1 minimas.

I agree they are already in fairly widespread use and they are a very good idea.

The FO is PF (from some point before the FAF) during a fully coupled ILS and the Captain goes head up 100' above the minima. This allows him to evaluate vis cues that may be present before the minima. The FO is heads down all the way and calls "100' above" and "minima". If they are not visual at the minima, or if the captain is unhappy about anything else, the captain calls "Go around" and the FO carries out a fully automatic GA. If the captain is happy he calls "I have control" and lands the aircraft. If the captain is only reasonably happy he might call "Continue" and the FO continues to fly a head down coupled ILS until he hears "I have control" or "Go around".

It works very well...but is a dramatically different thing to the captain 'managing' things from the jumpseat.

[*Lancer*]

Rubbish Ron!! The autopilot will be doing it all anyway! You won't need so-called 'real pilots' in the future... :}

Back to the gripe site though, don't forget that the site was open to ANYONE. Bar talk has a small, known, like-minded audience. Whereas the net has the media, the passengers, family and management - all of whom generally don't have access to the grapevine.

[Wingspar]

Geez what next?

F/O's gripe site?

F/E's gripe site? But engineers have got a thick head.....sorry skin!

And of course a Captains gripe site?

There are tossers everywhere.

The Captains club certainly doesn't have the patent on that!

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

This just about sums it all up. WOW!!!

DM

[Keg]

Back to the gripe site though, don't forget that the site was open to ANYONE.

I only found out about this little gem earlier tonight. Given the security that is available through a 'member list' web forum such as this one or Qrewroom I'm absolutely astounded that they didn't restrict access to members who the administrator could verify. Just plain daft and given it was open to the public then I'm glad it's been shut down! :rolleyes:

And sorry for the thread drift....my fault! :D

[Kanga767]

The captain won't actually do the driving on approach but sit behind

:} Obviously that's why Flight Engineers sat where they sat!!:ok:

K

(seriously, you know I love you guys)