CARDIFF - 3

[PhilM]

Continuation of: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=231075&page=17


All gone quiet again now! Excel gone, My Travel gone, Baby on their winter program (down by midnight).

Anyone heard whether ThomsonFly are putting in a 737 Classic or NG next summer?

Rumour has it Aviance are going to be given the push aswell, airport is said to be fedup with Servisair, who I believe have the ground handling contract, subcontracting it out, they have to take it in-house. :suspect:

[AvianceUK]

Hey Phil...

Not seen you in a while.. Where you been???

There was a rumour around that Aviance had a 90 day notice recently... Nothing official though.

Just to clarify... Aviance are the only ground agents to work airside - baggage etc so we handle everything that you see ( as an engineer )... As said Subed by servisair on their contracts. So any deficit is down to us on that part! But to clarify what I read some time ago, Aviance took over Airway Handling... And now we have the same stucture and managers as they did.. So in effect, Airway took Aviance over!!! We currently run exactly the same way, one year on, as Airway did.

But hold on there..... There's a new kid in town!!! Yep, we got ourselves a 'project manager', here to sort us out!! Not wanting to post any names, but, he used to be station manager for swissport at BHX...!

Some changes have been implemented, though relatively small so far, being end of season. But many more, and more significant changes are on the way ' apparently ' to make Aviance at CWL an ' Aviance ' operation.... Which it certainly isn't at the moment.

So watch this space!! I for one hope it gets better for all of us, coz this summer has been the worst ever!!

Saying that, looking at the weather, possible de-icing Thursday morn if Mr Frost makes an appearence!! And guess what??? WE ARE NOT READY!!! Oooh days off are nice!!!!

So Phil, I hope for yours and our sake, things do get better!!! And don't always blame the guy in charge on the ground, as he can only work with the number of men he's got on a team and to the time he was told about it!!! Generally when it's on approach!!!!

Shocking summer... I hope all that deal with us, and myself have a better winter!!

Cheers

AvUK

[WOWBOY]

Despite the romours Air Southwest are still flying from CWL in Summer 2007, although the flight times etc remain the same.

[PhilM]

Looks like www.cwlfly.com has had a make over, doesn't look too bad :ok:

Bit foggy here the last day or so, I assume thats the reason theres an Easy 737 down the bottom? (Std 12 is it?)

AvUK, you got a PM :)

[caaardiff]

Unsure which version of the site i prefer at the moment. Looks good though.

The fog has caused havoc again today. Majority of flights ending up in BRS.
The Easy A319 on 12 is there as it missed the BRS runway curfew Sunday night. This looks to be a regular thing until march!

[Deal or No deal]

Two days running now!! Fairly quiet on the apron!! Though of course, not for pax services!!

Winter isn't supposed to be this quiet is it??!!

Yep, we are now receiving BRS rejects!! We've had EZY and KLM here. The BA A319 seems to be a Heathrow overnight parker?? Comes here empty to park and goes off to Heathrow the next day to operate? A regular thing it would seem??!!

New website looks nice, though the 'live info' could do with extending it's 'range' as it did before... A little too short sighted for my liking!!!!!

[cym]

Any idea when (if) the new s07 routes suggested for TOM will go on sale?

[MonkeyB]

Thomsonfly haven't released their full programme yet. More will be added soon, probably Dec - from what I've heard CWL will get more, although nothing to get too excited about.

MB

[Smile!!!]

Well TOM have just realeased the schedule for s07 and NO BCN! despite promises, its only from Coventry. Though Jersy is back for next year, no real suprises. Funchal is not there but Faro is. Any news to come as it looks like theyve completed the summer 07 schedule to me?

[caaardiff]

FNC is being operated by FCA during S07, TOM are advertising it for W07/08.
No real surprises because most of the schedule has been up for weeks and word about new routes spread quite fast, its only FAO, JER, FNC and BCN that hadn't been released.
I'm still pretty confident they will eventually release BCN. Otherwise they will have a/c sitting around doing nothing.
Why would TOM only operate BCN from Coventry? When it advertises DSA, CVT, BOH and CWL as its low-fares bases. Its not like TOM to operate one single route.

[Smile!!!]

FAO and JER are already bookable on their webpage, its just FNC and BCN that are yet to be announced:confused:

[johnrizzo2000]

Hows the RE service to Dublin doing? EI should have jumped in there when FR pulled out!

[Smile!!!]

EI should have jumped in there when FR pulled out!

That was never going to happen. They have no intrest into expanding into CWL or the UK as a whole really. They are even reducing frquncies on some UK routes. Sad really when you see what KLM have done at AMS, not really the biggest of destinations, but have a massive amount of flights to the UK. EI could have made DUB into a larger airport and a bigger airline than thay are today.:ugh: Sad considering the first commercial flight from CWL was on Aer Lingus in 1952.(Not that I was alive then;) )

[MerchantVenturer]

john

Raw CAA pax figures on DUB-CWL-DUB sched for last four months, working backwards from October:

5020, 4652, 5317 and 4733 giving an average load in the low to mid 30s.

There is a certainly a bigger market than this if the product is there because the comparable figures for 2005 with FR were respectively 10243, 10143, 10763 and 10526.

However, Arann seem to charge on average higher fares than FR and provide better timed and more rotations than did FR, so I suppose business pax are happier with the extra flexibility of flights and timings, and the airline with the return, although of course only it will know that.

I guess those not so happy will be the leisure travellers who potentially form a significant group out of any large city airport. They will have to pay a bit more for their relaxation.

As Smile!!! points out, EI seems to be a bit unconvinced about regional UK links, albeit the airports they have pulled out of or are about to have FR competition and are not in the top eight busiest UK fields.

With no FR at CWL now, EI might have considered it but would they have gone double daily (as FR were working up to before they left - there were only two weekdays that were single daily)? You will know probably better than me that facility is often required by business pax.

[bycrewlgw]

FNC is available on the Thomsonfly website. It is only a winter destination for TOM details are:

Mon
Flight TOM 4703 09:00 Depart Cardiff (CWL)
12:20 Arrive Funchal (FNC)

Mon
Flight TOM 4707 13:20 Depart Funchal (FNC)
16:35 Arrive Cardiff (CWL)

BYCREWLGW:ok:

[a1234]

Is it likely that a Paris or Brussels route will be reintroduced soon? And also if there are any plans for Flybe to enter CWL, because it says on their website they want to open new bases soon. Is it likely they would operate at CWL, or anyone else for that matter?

[pipertommy]

Now that would be a major boost for CWL to see FLYBE making an approach to operate the remaing routes:8
Whats the temp-buliding that has been constructed on the southside next to the Air Wales hangar?anything to do with the removed airbridge??

[flower]

Whats the temp-building that has been constructed on the southside next to the Air Wales hangar?anything to do with the removed airbridge??

Not a 100% sure but when I asked was told it was something to do with food production. That of course is probably 180Degrees from the truth :}

No rumours about FlyBe circulating as far as I'm aware although many of their routes would be compatible with an operation such as Cardiff, we can but dream. :8

[a1234]

I can't believe though that there is still no paris link, and with bmibaby looking like doing nothing in the next year it would take some other airline to introduce this one. What about Jet2 opening a base here?

[AvianceUK]

I hear it's do do with a new catering company operating at CWL. Having seen an advert for staff in the local rag a few weeks back ( can't remember what outfit it was ), it would fit in...

From what I hear, BABY have dropped Alpha for this new operator.

Air bridge stand ten has gone away to be refurbished... Other two to follow I hear... Money better spent on air bridges that can fit more than two or three types of a/c????

Works on old pier coming along... Though after many revisions of the plans, the budget is a little over what was expected!

Also, I hear the tent will come down, stand one be closed for building works on the reclaim area. Not sure of timescale. Toilet facilities there seem to be an issue at the moment! Lack of....

Av...

[PhilM]

I heard a long time ago that Baby had dropped Alpha aswell, however that one went quiet. Heard from an Alpha lad the other day, that Thomson had dropped them in favour of the new company - but not sure about Baby, didn't seem to think so!

Anyone have any information on the AC at CWL that had landing gear troubles (stuck up I believe), diverted to MAN in the end, I assume they got the gear down, as I've not seen anything in Romours/News or the press.

One thing I think they need to sort ASAP is the area infront of the terminal includng the road area. The Zebra crossings are very poorly lit and I'm sure a few of the staff at CWL have nearly had a passnger or two over :{. Get some lighting up there, also, why not on the road from the roundabout (by Alpha/ICAT), perhaps on the left heading towards the terminal paint a few temporary parking bays up there (where they park anyway), and move the white line dividing the two lanes up accross. Needs to be sorted as its terrible at the moment!

[Smile!!!]

Is the new catering company at CWL going to be Select Service Partner, aviation catering division?

http://www.answers.com/Select%20Service%20Partner

Does anyone know when/if they are starting service on WW or TOM:confused:

[PhilM]

Don't think its SSP mate. They do all of the landside & airside catering (BK, Food Courts & Bars) at Cardiff and other airports. Not aware that they do any airline catering as such.

The name I was told escapes me, three letters long though...(like that helps :ouch: )

[stalling attitude]

three letters. KFC?

[bycrewlgw]

Not LSG is it? They have the TOM contracts in most other bases.

[PhilM]

LSG, thats the one :)

[caaardiff]

Baby's schedule for S07 has been released. Doesnt seem to be many changes, one or two flights reduced, one or two increased.
Nothing that seems to support that 4th a/c though! :ugh:

[cym]

Strange use of aircraft as things stand!

Currently no slot 1 use of 3rd aircraft with first dep to BFS @ 1020 ish which is not ideal for business day returns etc.

Also GLA down to 1 rotation daily at present - (seems familiar...)

More to come maybe?

[Deal or No deal]

What has happened here to our fourth aircraft?? Deployed somewhere else?? Well thanks a bunch!!

Seems by the news and booking engine that our fourth a/c is not to be?? Perhaps they will come up trumps, but I doubt it!!

Seriously though, as a worker, I DO NOT WANT TO WORK THERE NEXT SUMMER!! AFTER WORKING LAST SUMMER UNDER IMMENSE PRESSURE... SIMPLE FACT OF ME AND MANY COLLEAGUES NOT WANTING TO UNDERGO THE **** THAT HAPPENED LAST SUMMER!!!

I'm glad CWL is expanding, I only wish that there was some communication with airport authorities, contractors, handling agents, and anyone else that has to suffer the CWL regime!!

At the mo, It's all a blur.... Imagine taking down an air bridge and not telling anyone..... Well the people who allocate stands didn't know!!! Nice one! Worth your money I'm sure:= Take a golf break and come back smiling!!!

Last I heard was of the THIRTEENTH REVISION of the plans!! LOL!! Really?? No wonder work is behind!! Airport not sure of what it wants for the future, so architects revise plans, work goes on... Even heard of one wall being built, the airport authorities demanding it be pulled down??!! What a waste of money!! Hear they are already 2 Mill over budget!!

[caaardiff]

I couldnt agree more! :ok:

The Management at CWL need a good kick up the behind!

If only they read this or actually listen when the people that use the place on a daily basis have something to say! :ugh:

Waste of money?? too right!
Its a shame when they put these walls up, E.G - then have to renovate them again because of a leak thats been there over 2 years and has never been fixed!

CWL will never expand, after this year the pax wont come back!

Roll on Summer 07!

[Smile!!!]

I do believe that the fourth ww aircraft was originaly planned for cwl. But with typical baby style things change at the last minute all the time. So the aircraft has been planned for all 4 bases at some stage. It is looking incresingly likley though that it will go to MAN with the merger of BACON and flybe they may wish to capilitize on the situatuin with more domestic flights fro MAN. Though that is not ruling out Cardiff or any other airport for that matter. The airport has not yet been realesed to the public so the schedule is not yet final.(bmibaby :rolleyes: :confused: )

[Smile!!!]

It has been mentioned on the flybe thread and in referance the BRS thread, and on a different site I have seen that flybe let slip in there press realese that they were going to fly to CWL. Thought this has know been removed as they have realised there mistake with no new routes set out, so is this wrong or just information realesed early? What routes do you think BE could do, some German and French (maybe finnaly CDG) but what about WW/TOM on some of the bucket and spade routes and the competition? Is there really enough room in the S Wales market for all these flights?:confused:


In further news Aer Arann is to start a new flight to Nantes. The Cardiff to Nantes service will operate on Saturdays departing Cardiff at 12.50pm and Nantes at 11.45 am. The service will be operated by an ATR72 66 seater aircraft.
http://info.cwlfly.com/en/news/3/233/aer-arann-announces-cardiff-nantes-route-for-summer-'07.html

So does anyone know what will happen to the Lorient route?

[en2r]

In further news Aer Arann is to start a new flight to Nantes. The Cardiff to Nantes service will operate on Saturdays departing Cardiff at 12.50pm and Nantes at 11.45 am. The service will be operated by an ATR72 66 seater aircraft.
http://info.cwlfly.com/en/news/3/233/aer-arann-announces-cardiff-nantes-route-for-summer-'07.html

So does anyone know what will happen to the Lorient route?

London Luton to Lorient hasn't been announced either so maybe it might be announced yet. The Nantes route will probably be operated by a Cork based aircraft on a w pattern.

[cym]

The rumour that Flybe are coming into CWL seems to be gathering apace. Apart from a (now deleted) news item on their website has anyone seen any evidence to support this move?

Also, considering the fanfare when the new cwlfly website went live why haven't the CWL maketing bods made the most of using this as a way of promoting the airport? Websites are only used if the content changes on a regular basis. Ok, they've now put details of the new Nantes service on but never made any mention of TOM Jersey flights going on sale, baby s07 fully on sale etc etc. Come on CWL Marketing - get your act together!

[Deal or No deal]

What my little ears have heard!!!

Sky chefs - LSG got Thomson contract, seen them operating already and perhaps baby going there soon?? Not started yet so can't confirm.

What have Alpha got left?? Winter is quiet for them now.

Stand 1 to be closed in Jan for baggage reclaim building works? Where the 'tent' is.

Servisair coming back on the ramp??

Phase 2 of building to start in Jan... 'Proper' walkway with 'new' airbridges to be built out in direction of old pier to wards then stand 2, now 12 and 17 as in the masterplan.

BAMC doing all the refits of 747 and 777 for BAs new seating hype.


Questions now!

What are the Sunday flights to Guernsey?? Perm or just once of twice?? And from memory... was there one to IOM too??? Regular or visitor???

Can CWL take an A380?? Runway, taxiways and stands? If REALLY need be??

Cheers

No Deal

[a1234]

There is a huge case for another airline at CWL especially a larger one like the new Flybe. I'm sick of travelling to Bristol just to get to places like Paris and Berlin which would work fine at CWL. Just because the South Wales region is close to Bristol doesn't mean a paris, brussels or berlin route won't work. I mean even Exeter and Southampton have better routes at the moment, CWL deserves more. Could we also please have a good link to Dublin with Aer Lingus. Aer Arran offer poor service, and they are putting up their prices on the route!

[Concerned_CWL]

With Zoom UK due to startup next year, what is the possibility of CWL having a ny route? Zoom has already stated that they will expand operations from their existing UK hubs and with the market for the route being there, surely it is time to introduce it?

[caaardiff]

Zoom have stated about using existing bases, however in my opinion i cant see them actually offering many routes. The ones they will,(possibly somewhere like SFB, SFO, JFK?) will be split with probably either LGW or BFS (as are YYZ and YVR currently)
YYZ was doing very well last year being direct, Zoom have cut the service for the winter, ending i think mid Dec, and returning mid Apr. But last year this was the case and they started up early. Who knows!?
I believe there are no direct YYZ service for S07 though. Its LGW-CWL-YYZ again.
Look at the routes offered to the South-West. EXT, BRS, SOU, and even BHX. You go further west into Wales, and nothing available until you get to DUB!! surely there must be a market that drives straight past CWL to get to BRS. I also think FlyBe is what CWL needs. Its competition for Baby, and its a chance for some decent european routes.
Stand 1 to be closed in Jan for baggage reclaim building works? Where the 'tent' is.

Great, that will be 2 stands out of use - Stand 10 and 1.
Anyone know how long each airbridge will be away for?
Hopefully they will all be back in action ready for the Rugby flights in Mar
Phase 2 of building to start in Jan... 'Proper' walkway with 'new' airbridges to be built out in direction of old pier to wards then stand 2, now 12 and 17 as in the masterplan.
So soon?? Was it really worth building the extra gates??
How many new airbridges are they planning? I didnt see any on the masterplan, and it shows them all going ready for 2030. Some to fit the 737's they need now.
I have to give it to the management, for once they are actually moving things along. This was all scheduled for completion in 2015!
Can CWL take an A380?? Runway, taxiways and stands? If REALLY need be??
I cant see that ever happening.
Are BA actually getting these now? There was talk W. Walsh was interested.
That would probably be the only reason an A380 would pop into CWL.

[MonkeyB]

Will the new building work also start on the extension to the departure lounge - filling in the gap in the L? This is long overdue - anybody who's been here during the summer will have witnessed the caos. Real shame that they've missed the opportunity to let a bit of daylight into the place.

Couldn't agree more about FlyBe, lets hope that they are on the verge of announcing something interesting from CWL - to be fair they're spoilt for choice on the route front! Plus they could pocket a bit of support through the RDF.

I'd particularly like to see them have a go at T3 on NCL - Welsh people are too tight to pay £300 plus for a day return! Mrs MonkeyB does Newcastle about twice a month with EZY from BRS and it's packed with penny pinching Welsh people.

MB

[a1234]

Well I try to fly from CWL as much as I can, because I fly twice weekly to Paris and once to Berlin as well as the occasional Dublin trip. But not one of these happens from CWL but from BRS, and I've noticed a lot of people in these flights are from South Wales. Figures show that 30% of BRS pax are from Wales so there is a huge market for atleast a couple of basic routes from CWL which include Paris, Berlin, Brussels and perhaps something to Italy.

I 've also noticed that a lot of people have used Aer Arann but then with the considerably lower prices at BRS with Aer Lingus and Ryanair, so again CWL loses on basic routes!

What is the likelihood of Lufthansa starting some German routes next year, as was recently said in the press?

[a1234]

New Stockholm (ARN) route from BRS starting next June. Is CWL falling further behind? Surely a link operating between two capital cities would have been the better option?

[Smile!!!]

Are CWL really falling behind? With the potential of flybe, ww 4th aircraft for CWL? One route 2xweekly late at night on Monday and Fridays an a 736. This although would have been good for CWL was unlikley to happen with 'BRS bigger business catchement area' these flights are more targeted for lesuire passengers. With our L/H with TOM, TCD, Zoom etc and BRS, New York with the non-direct with FCA next year. More news may show this to be right or wrong.

[AvianceUK]

As deal or no deal asked.

Can CWL take an A380 technically?? Runway length, taxiways and stand six being big enough?? Despite the logistics!

What I'm saying is, can one land if it needed to divert?? Are we a divert option??

Cheers Av UK

[a1234]

Anybody heard rumours about Jet2 arriving in the new year?

[goshdarnit]

Does anyone know what happened with the "santa" flight today? - I understand the plane went tech but what was the issue?
I guess the airport must have been full of upset kids, not a nice place to be for anyone, especially the folks who had to tell them the flight was off.

[AvianceUK]

Yep, it went tech.

They looked at getting another a/c in but it was getting late and it wouldn't have been worth it in the end. All that money for an hour or two.. Cancelled yes, many unhappy people, but that's life and the risk you take each and every day.

Aviation ain't perfect! I'm sure that First Choice would have rather people get there than have to pay compensation and possibly get a bad news report... Let alone 180 pax that won't book with them again!

A sad day really.. Many kids VERY excited and let down at the last minute.. They were at the boarding gate at the time of the news!

No FCA engineer on site as it's winter! Had to come from BRS to diagnose.. Outlook was gloomy...

Just think of all the days off from work booked by parents, the promises of seeing Santa and reindeer in the snow...

So glad I don't deal with pax!!

Av

[AvianceUK]

Not heard ANYTHING on Jet2.

Normally rumours are around well before anything happens, so jet2 rumours have been on the quiet!!

[AvianceUK]

New Stockholm (ARN) route from BRS starting next June. Is CWL falling further behind? Surely a link operating between two capital cities would have been the better option?


It's a shame but CWL will always fall behind!

CWL makes no real competition with BRS as it stands. Our destinations are predictable and More often than not more costly than BRS. CWL struggles with the business market. Not sure why, but the majority are holidaying pax. We are limited in catchment area and diversity of destinations. But if no one pays, then no operator will fly!

Slightly cheaper landing fees and better facilities would do it! But we are many years behind and will never be competition to BRS as they are years ahead of us!

Our current expansion includes the 'refurb' of very old air bridges that fit so few a/c??? What's the point?? Spend a little more to achieve turn around times that are required these days by improving equipment, not painting it nice!

Small differences resemble BIG achievements to staff that have to use these things! Perhaps listen to the staff who use CWL a little more, rather than impose rules and changes that benefit no-one.

[Smile!!!]

I havent heard anything about Jet2 either, and with all there fleet assigned and the schedules tightly packed with routes this aint going to happen for S07. flybw on the other hand.:confused: :)
(Well except for the 3 new aircraft but heard they are going to DTV after WW pullout)

[Flightrider]

Jet2 have one new base to open next year, but it seems to be a tightly held secret as to where. They have a significant number of slot allocations in Spain, Portugal and France which don't tie up with existing operations and, if the fleet plan is to be believed, around three 737s spare.

That said, I would not have thought Cardiff would be a particularly good fit with their "The North's low-cost airline" mantra. Most speculation seemed to be pointing to Durham/Tees Valley as the likely place, since they were apparently a bit miffed by FlyGlobespan's move in there.

Rumour has it that at least one long-haul operator is looking at pulling out of CWL completely given the outrageous landing charges for 767s. CWL sounds to be amongst the most expensive airports in the country for that size of aircraft given the way its landing fees are set up. It will be interesting to see if the airport budges on this for the sake of keeping services going.

[a1234]

Well it seems to most people now that despite the airport having loads of potential for new routes, new airlines and growth the management seem to be careless and act as if they don't want the airport to grow! Every other airport in the UK is growing at a much faster pace than CWL, and even though yes there is a smaller catchment area there is massive potential for routes but it is the airport's fault that they can't get their act together and get more airlines in.

As for the news about another airline leaving it seems as if by next year the airport will be left with no one and I bet pax won't bother coming back next year to this disgrace of an airport that once was a good place to fly from!

[cym]

Cant be that high or Thomsonfly would not have based a 762 at CWL for whole/part of the Summer season for the last 3 years!

[arfortune]

From May next year FlyBe will commence operations twice daily from CWL to Belfast Harbour, with further expansion planned - see below.
Mike Rutter, Chief Commercial Officer, Flybe comments: "The announcement of a new hub at Cardiff is another string to Flybe's bow. Beginning operations from this key base is a major move for us as we continue to expand across the UK, bringing our low cost, high quality service to Wales for the first time."
"With the recent announcement of the proposed acquisition of BA Connect these are exciting times for Flybe as we grow to become Europe's largest regional carrier. Cardiff Airport has massive potential for growth and we are already looking at options for further new routes to be introduced early next year so watch this space!"
Jon Horne, Managing Director at Cardiff International Airport comments: "We're always looking to bring increased choice to travellers in and around Cardiff so we are delighted to welcome Flybe as a new carrier to our fast-growing airport. Flybe's establishment at Cardiff is also of strategic importance to the Welsh economy and businesses."

[flower]

At last some good news :D

[AvianceUK]

Good news about FlyBe. A breath of fresh air!

ThomsonFly 737 returned to base this morning on full emergency due to a cracked windscreen on the f/o side.

Tent by stand one being gutted ready for removal.

Airbridge 10 still away.

[pipertommy]

Good to hear about FLYBE lets see some action now!yip bit of excitement this morning with badly cracked window,glad that it all ended safely.:ok:

[chrism20]

With the announcement of Flybe's arrival I will be very surprised if CWL does not get the additional baby aircraft to defend, especially with the announcement of a hub for Flybe

Let battle commence........

[MerchantVenturer]

Well I try to fly from CWL as much as I can, because I fly twice weekly to Paris and once to Berlin as well as the occasional Dublin trip. But not one of these happens from CWL but from BRS, and I've noticed a lot of people in these flights are from South Wales. Figures show that 30% of BRS pax are from Wales so there is a huge market for atleast a couple of basic routes from CWL which include Paris, Berlin, Brussels and perhaps something to Italy.

I don't know where you came cross this figure. I would certainly be interested to learn its source.

If true it would mean that almost as many Welsh people were using BRS as CWL's pax numbers in total.

The figure that BRS uses in its master plan (final draft recently published) is 10.6% of its pax are from Wales, much the same proportion in percentage terms as the number of West Country pax using CWL.

BRS still thinks it loses around 60% of its potential catchment to other airports, mainly those in the London area, and I believe CWL's percentage figure is similar.

A lot of this of course is impossible to stem because neither BRS nor CWL is large enough to provide the worldwide services that are available from LHR.

What seems undeniable is that CWL has performed poorly in recent years, especially on the scheduled front, seemingly because its low cost operator has never really given the airport a good run.

Now that Flybe is at last coming to the party (I am surprised they waited so long) there is every chance that a decent route network will be established over the next year or two.

Look at what that airline has done for EXT and SOU, for example.

[a1234]

I read in the Echo a while back when they were comparing CWL and BRS, and it said that nearly 30% of BRS pax are coming to or from Wales, so they would most likely use CWL if the routes were in place. On another note, does anyone think that if Flybe started a decent route network from CWL to perhaps Paris and a few other destinations would it work, or would BRS still be popular for people from S. Wales? Also are lufthansa still looking into flights from Cardiff?

[pipertommy]

Heard they(FLYBE) ARE looking at Paris,loads of routes for them to take on :ok: Low prices could be the key here.
Who will be running the north -south link?

[flower]

Heard they(FLYBE) ARE looking at Paris,loads of routes for them to take on :ok: Low prices could be the key here.
Who will be running the north -south link?

Yes I have heard the same rumour, possibly Nice as well. Bring it on :cool:

[Smile!!!]

Have heard that flybe are looking at other routes to start next year Paris being one of them, though nothing confirmed yet. I havent heard anything on Nice? What too about this 4th ww aircraft, has been confirmed for every base in ww portfolio:confused:

[TwinAisle]

Heard they(FLYBE) ARE looking at Paris,loads of routes for them to take on Low prices could be the key here.

Pause whilst I scream....

It will be a choice on this route between low fares and high frequency. The route needs frequency for the business traveller, and connections.

At the risk of being abused on here for being the ghost at the feast, can I just present an alternative viewpoint on flybe's decision to start something (hub? base? destination?) at Cardiff.

This may turn out to be one of the worst strategic decisions the airport has made for a long time.

My reason for saying this comes from many years of business and strategic planning in the airline business. One of the key profit drivers in the airline game is average sector length. I won't bore anyone on here with why that is, but it is a fact. The lower the average sector length, the better the bottom line tends to look. This is why the likes of baby, and easy, and Ryan, fly some short routes - it lowers the ASL, while routes like PRG, AGP tend to drive it up.

Now - if someone like flybe is going to start flying routes like BHD, then the opportunities for a new carrier to build a sensible network out of CWL - with nice routes like BUD, CIA etc, balanced with some short ones like BFS - get diminished.

By all means encourage flybe to do, say, CDG, BRU - but the moment they start looking at DUB, EDI, GLA, NCL, BHD/BFS etc, expect other potential low cost entrants to forget CWL as a base. If what flybe does is makes life hard for baby, and stuffs up Eastern - is that really Cardiff's gain?

What CWL really needs is someone who is committed to the place, and sees it as home, rather than just a chunk of tarmac to make a quick buck on... Who is prepared to build an easyjet style network, with long sectors balanced against short ones.

Price wars are all very well for the consumer - but they are disastrous for the industry. And flybe may very well spark off a price war (bet baby are over the moon about BHD, expect them to fight back - baby's CASK is almost certainly better than flybe's, so could drive them off it). Worst case is that baby pull off some short routes (because flybe are on them) and that could compromise their whole Cardiff operation. That would be in no-one's interest, least of all Cardiff's.

There is a place for flybe at Cardiff. But the airport would do well to look at what is best for the airport in the long run, rather than just trying to get someone to use the place. My guess is that these routes will run with aircraft based elsewhere, which will vanish like the morning mist in time....

[flower]

Eastern, oh yes that extremely expensive airline that offers one route out of Cardiff who can't pull the loads in to Newcastle as Air Wales did, what an asset.
BMI Baby who promised much but have yet to fully deliver, where are all the routes they promised and could really make successful?
And now a new Airline that has turned around Exeter and Southampton and somehow that is bad news :rolleyes:

[TwinAisle]

Flower, why don't you read my whole post, rather than pick out individual points?

What if there was an airline - perhaps Jet2 (this is rumour, I have no idea what they are thinking) - that was looking to build a proper base at Cardiff, with a multitude of new routes to new destinations for Cardiff - but was now looking at Cardiff less favourably because it would be potentially up against flybe on all the short routes it would need to create a balanced network?

Why is flybe having a pop at baby? You may be right in saying that they have not built the base well at CWL - but is taking them on REALLY in CWL's best interest? Would THAT be good news if baby said "stuff this for a game of soldiers" after being beaten up on, say, BFS, EDI, GLA by flybe?

My post was intended to put across a slightly different viewpoint, as opposed to the "flybe is the second coming" type of posts on here.

CWL's biggest problem is not the road, nor the catchment area, nor the stairs, nor the building site, nor the departure lounge. It is the management.

[a1234]

I absolutely agree with flower, bmibaby have only used CWL as a place to make a bit of money and not once have they regarded us as a base, thats just lip service and everyone knows! EMA have 5 baby a/c already and here CWL is struggling to gain the 4th! I regularly used Ncl with Air Wales but since Eastern came along with their massive fares I've been using easy at BRS, and now its likely I'll have to use easy for the glasgow route because baby have moved it down to one a day! What a joke! And the fact is what other airline is going to bother implementing a mixed route network at CWL except flybe ever? not FR, never easy because of the proximity to BRS and unlikely to be Jet2 either, so its probably going to be the best thing to happen at CWL for a while, if flybe start a proper route network from here.

[TwinAisle]

bmibaby have only used CWL as a place to make a bit of money and not once have they regarded us as a base

Well. What did you expect baby to do EXCEPT use CWL as a place to make a bit of money? There was me thinking they were a business, not some chunk of the socialist state....:ugh: And I am sure the many local people who WORK for baby at CWL call it a base.

offers one route out of Cardiff who can't pull the loads in to Newcastle as Air Wales did

Privy to their yield figures, are we? Load is a MEANINGLESS number except in extremis. What matters is what revenue they are getting.

And the fact is what other airline is going to bother implementing a mixed route network at CWL except flybe ever?

Know this to be a FACT do you? No, thought not.

[flower]

Twin Aisle i didn't cherry pick at all, just find your post curious.
The very conversation about FlyBe and BMI Baby took place in the works kitchen this morning, we all agreed that either it would finally make BMI Baby management pull their socks up in terms of giving Cardiff some decent routes and increased frequency or if FlyBe really took them on then yes of course they could withdraw. BMI Baby are a great airline and i enjoy flying them and working with their crews, but the locals aren't making the decisions and here we are some years later with no real change or dynamism as to how they operate out of Cardiff. Compare them to the EasyJet operation out of Bristol, look how Easy have given the flying public what they want whilst we have stayed stagnant

I also take it Twin Aisle you are equally not privy to any figures (having a friend who flies for them does not give you access to commercial in confidence figures after all) , I know all about yields etc you have explained it enough times, but when the locals abandon Cardiff to go to Bristol as they can fly to Newcastle about 8 times for the price Eastern charge for 1 trip out of Cardiff then that isn't good for the airport.

One route does not a hub make and maybe FlyBe will only have the one route, but with so many possible routes which could be taken up maybe it just will be Cardiff's future

[MerchantVenturer]

http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0300business/0250features/tm_headline=cardiff-s-long-haul-to-catch-bristol&method=full&objectid=18196972&siteid=50082-name_page.html

The above is a link to a report by an academic from the University of Glamorgan, who you may possible know TA with your Welsh aviation links.

He cites a recent CAA report stating that passenger growth rates have not increased since the ten years before low cost airlines came on the scene. It’s just that the growth has transferred mainly to the low cost airlines leaving traditional and especially charter carriers standing still.

Much of the report compares CWL to BRS and one thing the author does assert is that most of the increased pax travel in the low cost sector is by middle or higher income groups, people not in such great supply on the Welsh side of the Severn compared to the English.

This being the case, he wonders whether CWL has done the best it can given the disparity in relative prosperity between the two areas, although 500,000 Welsh people use BRS each year (around 10% of that airport's total throughput) because services are not available or not at a price or frequency required at their home airport.

Would not the smaller aircraft used by Flybe be more suited to some of the mainly leisure routes that might be hoped for than the larger equipment of the likes of Jet2? EXT, with a smaller catchment than BRS, seems to have done rather well with this model.

I do realise that Flybe would also have to operate the lower sector lengths as well (for the reasons you point out) and on the EDI for example they might well need at least an Emb 195-sized aircraft, something that might be too big for CIA or BUD (this one has been dropped by easy from BRS by the way because although loads were good presumably the yield wasn't).

I do take the points you have made and can see your argument does not lack merit and is clearly made.

Interestingly, when easyJet decided to go head to head on some of Flybe’s BRS routes, Flybe quickly threw in the towel.

Would this not happen at CWL if baby flexed its muscles or even if Jet2 came along or would Flybe’s business model be more appropriate, bearing in mind the report I quoted.

You have said, rightly, many times that running an airline is not a game where local enthusiasts' wishes have to be taken into account, but a business where money has to be made.

Thanks for a different view (to me anyway) - it is something to mull over.

[TwinAisle]

we all agreed that either it would finally make BMI Baby management pull their socks up in terms of giving Cardiff some decent routes and increased frequency or if FlyBe really took them on then yes of course they could withdraw

There, I too agree. I am not clear how it helps CWL if the latter option becomes reality. With the best will in the world, a few routes to CDG, BRU, GLA, EDI and BHD would not make up for the loss of the sheer lifting ability of baby. Pax numbers would inevitably fall, and the leakage to BRS would increase.

I also take it Twin Aisle you are equally not privy to any figures

Nope, no idea, except a stab in the dark based on years of experience and their accounts...

I know all about yields etc you have explained it enough times

Always nice to know that my jottings don't fall on deaf ears all the time.... ;)


but when the locals abandon Cardiff to go to Bristol as they can fly to Newcastle about 8 times for the price Eastern charge for 1 trip out of Cardiff then that isn't good for the airport.

Which is the nub of my argument. Is the management at the airport in danger of stuffing baby, and the chances they get of anyone else coming, because they have encouraged flybe to sit on all the short routes? That would mean less choice for passengers, with more leakage to BRS/BHX.

With regard to the price argument - you are of course right - but don't assume that the desires of the airport and the desires of the airline are congruent. Sometimes the airport has to do the wrong thing (for them) to get the right result (for them).

[a1234]

But its true isnt it, if baby only can provide a frequency of one a day to glasgow, and never bothered with keeping the munich, milan routes which were quite popular and hasn't even reinstated the paris link when there was obviously a desire for that route. I never said that CWL was never going to be a base for another airline but the fact that FR now hates the management, easy r too close in BRS and Jet2 pride themselves as the 'norths best airline' or something - its only flybe then isnt it?

[TwinAisle]

Interesting as ever, MV! :)

The big hole down which all this falls is the seat costs. It is MUCH easier to charge lower fares with a big aircraft than with a small one - which is why the A380 looks so good on paper (assuming you can get one!)

flybe's problem is that they have got around the problem of using smaller aircraft by using a lot of cheaper to run turboprops. Which are great on shorter, thinner routes, but the public want a jet.

My fear is that flybe will cherry pick some of the short routes out of CWL, throw a D-8 on them at reasonable fares (with more business like fares on CDG and BRU) and this could damage baby - and with the best will in the world, you won't get many takers for a D-8 to AGP when there is a 319 going from BRS....

A1234 - MUC was a political decision, look who owns baby. Milan was the wrong end of Italy and shows how bad some market research can be! GLA is not a fun route for 600 seats a day, neither is CDG. Let flybe have them, but beware what it will do to existing and possible tenants at CWL. As regards "it is only flybe" - think outside the box!

[TwinAisle]

Something else of interest in MV's post - and IMHO a slight flaw in the research....

What is a TRUE low fares airline?

The research sort of fudges this, and groups all the "locos" together - but I would assert that the only real low fares airline to date is Ryanair. (CAA figures before you start shouting). And what they have proved is that low fares DO build market. The sort of fares that easy and baby charge are higher than Ryanair, and do indeed have a self-eating effect, as per the report.

Would have been a great read if they had worked out what the effect of a RYANAIR base at CWL would have been. Alas, that would involve humble pie being eaten in Dublin and Cardiff, and that just ain't going to happen.

[flower]

We don't know if or what routes FlyBe will take on. I suspect they are more likely to fly South than North and yes I do find it curious that they have gone head to head with Baby on Belfast (another conversation we had today)

There is danger in having all your eggs in one basket and perhaps if Baby's management had given the commitment to Cardiff that they have given to subsequent bases this wouldn't have ever been an issue but the lack of routes and frequency provided by Baby and the loss of Air Wales leaves a vacuum and nature abhors that vacuum.

[a1234]

You do make a good point regarding other airlines, but I'm not really that much of an expert on new bases but when I asked about jet2 earlier in the week most people said it would go against their principle as a northern airline, but who knows. They would be a quite popular at cwl though, being quite cheap on many routes - milan was only £36 return from EDI but again yields are different! Could cwl be the new base for next summer that jet2 are planning?

[TwinAisle]

Before people get carried away here - I have no idea about Jet2, I used them as an example. Have heard nothing!

[stalling attitude]

Not Jet2 maybe but i was told by a friend that an old colleague of his had been approached by Globespan and asked if he would like to fly one of their 737s for them when they set up at Cardiff in Spring.

[On standby]

Having read all the above, I fail to see why Baby gets all the bad press at CWL, it does.

The routes it has run have changed with profitability, A/C & crewing commttments and commercial pressures in BMI group. CWL is one of the most productive bases in that group for the very reason that the company have been cautious. Perhaps too cautious for a low cost model. The fact remains that BMI have been around for years and Baby has been a base a CWL for 4 years. This is a success but I grant other LoCo's may have been more aggressive. In that time, Air Wales have come and gone as have Excel. Mytravel and First Choice are only summer bases.

Flybe have cherry picked 1 route to begin with and say they intend to base A/C at CWL. That's their choice for whatever reason. It may simply be to see how Baby react for future reference at BHX. Competition for Baby maybe good or bad time will tell.

I feel that the Airport needs to be more helpful to all airlines. What happened to Continental? They went to BRS instead. Why is building work carried out at such ridiculous times each? CWL Management need to wake up and give passengers and airlines a better service.

[WOWBOY]

Hi,

With Flybe's Arrival into Cardiff, I feel that some airlines will either leave Cardiff or reduce there flights.
I feel that Flybe will most likley start GLA, EDI, ABZ etc, driving Bmibaby off the GLA and EDI routes. Maybe WOW, RE or EZE will be targeted?

Well I'm not saying that they are definatly going to attack other airlines but i mean sort of liek a "WHAT IF" senerio!

[Wellington Bomber]

All this talk about Flybe this and that gets on my nerves!!

How many times have they left routes with their tail between their legs whenever thay come up against opposition.

I know for a fact that when they arrive on a route they do very well, after a while the business travellers desert in droves because they are unreliable and service not that great.

Eastern are doing very well on the Newcastle route but they are not cheap, but are very reliable and you can do a days business and return the same day. Now if Flybe come and dump a load of seats on this route with a once a day service in the middle of the day, the business traveller will have to pay for an overnight stay in Newcastle, not cheap. plus he/she will have a night away from home, which is not great

What would you do?

[CheekyVisual]

Twin Aisle is spot on. The excitement of having a load of cheap nasty Dash 8s gracing the hallowed tarmac of CWL is nothing to get excited about. There is not one route from CWL that can bare any kind of competition. Being all emotional about how great CWL is won't change that fact ! Both FlyBe and Baby will not keep Belfast going.

FlyBe are not likely to start a crew base at Cardiff. They don't need to, everything they are interested in taking can be done from the other end or as a W pattern. That means if Baby throw their teddies out of the cot, which there is a very good chance they will !, the LOCAL aviation communtiy will lose. The LOCAL travelling community may gain in the short term but in the long term Twin Aisle is right. You can't operate the long routes unless you've got the short routes to back pack them with. NO EDI and GLA means NO Prague or Faro. Let me tell you for nothing there is absolutely NO WAY Flybe will ever put anything through CWL other than the Q400 BHX, SOU, EXT are much further up the food chain in FLYBE and the very small number of 195s they are having are already allocated. So there will be no extensive FlyBe network.

The CWL management have probably cost CWL the 4th Baby aircraft. The exact phrase used was "We are probably going to have to punish them by putting in BHX". And that was because they let TOM onto some routes that were scheduled by Baby only. As I said there are NO scheduled routes from CWL that will bare competition.

Twin Aisle is right the management need to be a lot smarter. Short term gain will lead to long term loss. As for Globespan good luck with that !

[a1234]

Seems that most people think that flybe won't be good for CWL unless they treat it as a proper base, but I don't think they will bother with EDI or GLA to be honest, but BHD is better for the business traveller so it does make some sense. What routes could globespan do out of CWL without going into competition with baby? Regarding baby I feel that most people like them and I certainly like flying with them but the fact that when compared with easy at BRS it seems as if they haven't tried experimenting with new routes or tried something different, they've just stuck with the same routes every year, while even EMA has better baby frequencies, inc Paris.

[TwinAisle]

Can't help thinking that too much is being read into the Globespan rumours. They have only ten 737s, so putting a minimum of two in Cardiff could be a bit of a stretch for them, unless they are going shopping.

It is quite possible that they are coming on IT work of course, which means that no-one except perhaps the ThomsonFlys and XLs of this parish are going to be annoyed.

Thanks to CV by the way. I sometimes feel like the only person on here who supports Cardiff but takes a practical and realistic view for the longer term - clearly there are at least two of us!

[flower]

The CWL management have probably cost CWL the 4th Baby aircraft. The exact phrase used was "We are probably going to have to punish them by putting in BHX". And that was because they let TOM onto some routes that were scheduled by Baby only. !

I remember another airline saying if a LoCo comes into Cardiff we will pull out, they did just that and it was the best thing that ever happened. So now we have that very LoCo pulling the same type of trick great
And of course they showed such great loyalty to the Airport themselves by pulling out an aircraft and reducing routes so who can blame them for going out and finding other airlines.

Some very short memories here

[TwinAisle]

If the business is truly run in such a way described then none of them deserve to succeed.

Unfortunately, to a large extent it is. But they do deserve success. The bottom line is that the margins on most routes from regional airlines simply will not bear much competition - there simply is not the sort of demand as there is at, say, Gatwick or Stansted. So what tends to happen is that a new operator appears who spends on marketing, offers more tempting fares, and drives the incumbents out, as bmibaby did with BA (which is what I suspect Flower was getting at). Someone could do this to baby in turn, and in the fullness of time probably will.

What won't help Cardiff is (a) someone coming in and taking all the short routes away (as CV noted, you don't get PRG without EDI), and/or (b) a price war on a limited number of destinations.

Can Cardiff sustain more than one scheduled operator to the Spanish destinations? I would say yes, but it is going to be lower yield than baby are getting now. Could this happen on the PRG route? I would say no, one operator will fall off the route. Perhaps in a few years when CWL has grown a bit, but right now, no. For routes like DUB it is possible - business people need morning and evening, the general punter doesn't care but wants a lower fare - so for example, Ryanair and Air Wales co-existed quite happily on this route.

Basically, we are in danger of seeing an almighty scrap developing here, if all the rumours are true. That is in no-one's interest, least of all the people who keep the infrastructure at the airport ticking. It is up to the airport management, as I noted earlier, to keep a little bit of order, follow a strategy and get the best longer term result for the place.

This will involve the airport doing the right thing for the longer term, rather than what seems to be a good idea at the time. Uh oh...

[Morrihell]

Slightly tongue in cheek spotters post......
BMED have been flying an empty A320/321 up and down the M4 between LHR and CWL for some weeks now.
Often the aircraft doesn't seem to do any flying out of Heathrow before returning to Cardiff.
Saturday's LAJ8 departed CWL at 14.22 and LAJ9 arrived back in Cardiff c17.30, both flown by A-320 G-MEDE.
Can't be cheap, 1 flight per day each way:hmm:

[WATABENCH]

[QUOTE=Wellington Bomber;3010717]All this talk about Flybe this and that gets on my nerves!!

How many times have they left routes with their tail between their legs whenever thay come up against opposition.

:D Thank god someone said it, they've only announced 1 route, anybody would think they've made a base and put in 10 a/c, BRS is a prime example of the good old FLBE tail between their legs, And do BRS management really give a toss if they pull out, hmm with 10th EZY on the way plus FR sniffing around, nah i dont reckon.
I hope it does work out well for CWL, but just cant see them being as big as your all hopeing, maybe i'll eat my words in a year, who knows, but one route and mention of future routes isn't much to go on, they announced 3-4 new routes in BRS a few years back, promising up to 15 routes, did it happen, did it heck!
I also see reading their website announcement that in the first paragraph they say " new base" and in the 2nd they say "new hub" so which is it Mr Flybe? a base in airline terms means you have crew 'based' at that airport does it not? A hub however is just somewhere you fly in and out of... well thats my take on it anyway.
Dont get me wrong I'm not CWL bashing, I do honestly hope it works out well, but I dont think i've ever seen so much hype on prune about the release of a 1 new route!

[flower]

One route does not a hub make and maybe FlyBe will only have the one route,

Indeed Watabench as I said in a previous post quoted above. Ryanair promised lots of routes , Baby promised a lot more than they have given but give us at least the opportunity to dream a bit :8


Oh yes another thing I posted was eggs in one basket, Bristol is EasyJet and should anything happen to them Bristol could end up like the poor neighbour across the River. :ouch:

[TwinAisle]

eggs in one basket, Bristol is EasyJet and should anything happen to them Bristol could end up like the poor neighbour across the River

Agreed. This goes to the heart of my argument about the airport having to do what for them may be the wrong thing to get the right result.

It would be great if all the routes at Cardiff, or indeed any other airport, were duplicated between operators; it would provide a comfortable fall back in case one airline ceased the route,and the airport would love it. But what it also does, except on a relatively small number of routes that have stacks of demand (eg, LHR-JFK), is slash the yields. Which turns the option that the airport would like to have into the airline's worst nightmare - do you think baby would have gone to CWL, or Go to BRS (etc etc) if the respective airports had said to them "fine, we want you, but we will encourage someone to come in to compete against you on your routes"?

The airport should be:

(a) encouraging new entrants, but not helping them in so that they can compete against incumbents - except on routes that are proven to be under served (at CWL, that is basically the Spanish routes in the Summer). I would suggest that BHD is not in that camp somehow;
(b) having to swallow its pride and follow a strategy. This may involve saying no to people. Imagine if Air XYZ knocked on the airport's door and said that it wanted to operate out of CWL on all bmibaby's routes, but ten minutes before them. The airport should listen politely and then say "no ta". What would CWL say?

Prediction time. Cheeky Visual is about right I reckon - flybe are dipping their toe in the CWL pool to find out what baby will do when faced with them, in preparation for the forthcoming punch-up at BHX - that one will make the Rumble in the Jungle look like the Teddy Bears' Picnic. My guess is that baby will face them down and they'll pack in CWL-BHD pretty quickly. If they don't and baby run away from BFS, flybe will be empowered - and dangerous. And if baby don't fight them, then it will show baby's commitment to CWL is not what it might be. Baby will fight.

As for Globespan - I wouldn't be surprised if they will do some of the IT work à la ThomsonFly/XL rather than sell scheduled. Wonder if one of this year's operators overcommitted to the tour operators a bit and now they are fishing for extra seats? Wouldn't be the first time....

[a1234]

Well it says in the official statement from flybe on the airport website that CWL is it's 'new base' so it does look likely it will base here next year, assuming that CWL will get new routes as part of their new BaConnect/Flybe plan.

[Stone Cold II]

I have spoken to a mate in Globespan, he has confirmed they might be coming to CWL next year but as Twinaisle said it is IT work, think he said it was the 767 that would come once a week to do Orlando.

Again talking to someonelse in Baby as to why they have never expanded at CWL, when he asked why don't we do these routes the answer he generally got was because easyJet do it out of BRS.

I have to admit I do see a lot of Welsh pax on easyJet flights out of BRS.

I would love CWL to do well just so I could get a job out of my home base but I don't see anyone I would risk leaving easyJet for coming anytime in the future.

I remember years ago prior to 9/11 when I was instructing, many times in the summer I would be held at the holding point for 30 minutes or in the orbit downwind for a good 20 minutes just because of the volume of IFR traffic arriving and departing, CWL was very busy then and it seems to have gone backwards.

[flower]

I remember years ago prior to 9/11 when I was instructing, many times in the summer I would be held at the holding point for 30 minutes or in the orbit downwind for a good 20 minutes just because of the volume of IFR traffic arriving and departing, CWL was very busy then and it seems to have gone backwards.

Nah that was just me delaying you on purpose :E

[Stone Cold II]

Thought so ;)

[DanielP]

This is all very interesting news.

I must admit that I have wondered why nobody serves the usual European loco destinations from CWL (e.g. Pisa or Nice). I am not particularly interested in the "bucket and spade routes" personally and have always been disappointed that I cannot plan my journeys from Cardiff.

As for the "they'll go from Bristol" type argument- yes I have travelled from Bristol (for Italy) and Luton (for Nice), but that's because I COULDN'T travel from CWL- is this not in danger of becoming a circular argument?

For example, I wanted to travel from Rhoose to Pisa. In the end, drove to Bristol, then Bris to MXP on Bacon (Easy too expensive!!!). Overnight in Milan, then train to Pisa (still cheaper than Easy from BRS). Very gauling to drive by both CWL and Pisa Airports without being able to make the link- I could probably have been sitting on the beach at Cancun (via T-Fly from CWL) in the time it took!

Although I'm one of those people only too grateful to take advantage of the cynical and potentially short termist loco strategies, I always work out the fares very carefully (including the additional cost of car, tolls or train journeys). Surely I am not the only potential customer who may be willing to pay a little more just not to have to drag into the UK to fly?

As for the FlyBe Q400s, I am not too bothered about prop vs jet- I think that (apart from the reliability) FlyBe may have lucked out in being one of the few operators to pursue this aircraft- when the oil price went up, who was laughing then? In fact, as I now travel with a toddler, I prefer smaller planes, as there are less people to upset per journey!

At least CWL isn't "putting its eggs in one basket" (yet)- however, it does seem to attract operators who only "stick their toe in" or keep to what they know (Baby). I'm really hoping FlyBe will shake things up for the good and that more consistent and comprehensive services become established.

Look forward to being able to fly from CWL soon (hopefully!).

Daniel

PS...noticed TNT have been stationing QC aircraft at CWL, but thought that they were in freight config. Who are they operating for?

[cym]

Now on sale from May07 with Thomsonfly 4 x weekly

[TwinAisle]

That should be an interesting route. Just hope they shout about it a bit, their advertising in Cardiff is not that hot...

[caaardiff]

...About time they released this... :ok:
TOM have got advertising all over the airport, on the TV, numerous billboards as well as those silly old men on the radio. Not to mention the advertising they get in their own shops.

[TwinAisle]

TOM have got advertising all over the airport, on the TV, numerous billboards as well as those silly old men on the radio. Not to mention the advertising they get in their own shops.

One lives and learns. It all managed to pass me by. Clearly I am not their target market! :}

Must get a Burberry cap....

[AbeamPoints]

At the 2001 census, the population of Cardiff was recorded as 305,340.

Lovely place, but actually a medium sized town labouring under the belief that it is a Capital City. It isn't. And within 30 miles you will find several of the most poor towns in the country.

Which is why Cardiff Airport has been the death knell of so many airlines over the years, why it is currently moribund and why it will never flourish.

South Wales is all fur coat and no knickers. Some parts of Cardiff and Tiger Bay have been tarted up and sport Charlotte Church and her mates. The rest of the region languishes as a cultural and economic black hole which shudders against the chill wind of globalisation.

As for Bristol airport being "vulnerable" due to its 'dependence' upon easyJet that is akin to saying the City is dependent upon financial services. Yes it is - thank God.

Cardiff - stop looking to compete with BRS and become realistic - take lessons from Norwich.

AP

[TwinAisle]

Funny post that last one....

Must have been someone who has not read any of the Avia Solutions reports, the Government White Papers on air travel, the Economic and Social Trends surveys....

Yes, parts of South Wales are having a harder time than other parts of the UK. Cf Bedminster, South London, Moss Side... all "hard done by regions" near other airports.

Cardiff is a relatively small city, agreed. But within an hour's travel live an awful lot of people. By train, even Swindon is just an hour away.

Come here, have a look. Then decide.

Anyway, I must dash. I am meeting Flower and her dogs to go begging under the railway arches.

[flower]

Anyway, I must dash. I am meeting Flower and her dogs to go begging under the railway arches.
Don't think you are taking over my pitch :8

The post above Twin Aisles is obviously written by someone who hasn't visited Cardiff and South Wales in some time. The Vale of Glamorgan in which the Airport is situated is an area which has one of the highest qualities of living in the UK, Properties in Cardiff have hit the Million Plus market and it is a strong vibrant economy. As for cultural black hole have you heard of the Wales Millennium centre.
Some one with an axe to grind no doubt, we may not have the same catchment area as Bristol, that has never been disputed but the people want to fly from Cardiff they can't get the flights hence many travelling to Bristol and Birmingham.
There was a time when Cardiff outstripped Bristol in movements, I don't think anyone is expecting in the short term for this to happen but with a bit of nerve there are long haul options which could legitimately be offered as an Alternative to the South East.

[MonkeyB]

Oooo handbags at dawn! Lets not get dragged into the my aiports better than your airport debate based on such bizzare logic - take a look around Fishponds or St Pauls as an example of the sh*t holes in BRS catchment area.

Only the government is foolish enough to beleive that census statistics are a measure of population - fair few Jedi's out there as I seem to recall from the 2001 census, perhaps EZY should start flights to Dagobar? According to the census Manchester is a city of 400,000 rather than the 2.5M it really is, utter nonsense derived from atrificail local authority boundaries. As a conurbation SE Wales (Cardiff) has a population in excess of 1.5M - this is obviously something completely different to the catchment area of CWL as an airport, this is measured in travel time.

Rant over. On another note good to see TOM finally anouncing Barcelona - what happened to Saltzburg?

Wonder what else the RDF fancy chucking a couple of quid at? I hope Flybe are talking nicely to Andrew Davies!

MB

[AbeamPoints]

I'm in Cardiff all the time. Nonetheless:

The Office for National Statistics (ONS) published new earnings statistics for 2006 on 26 October 2006. Detailed results can be found on the ONS web http://www.statistics.gov.uk/STATBASE/Product.asp?vlnk=13101


* Mean gross weekly earnings for full-time adults in Wales were £469.8 in April 2006, 87.4 per cent of the average for the UK as a whole (£537.3).

* Gross weekly earnings in Wales increased by 3.3 per cent between 2005 and 2006, compared to a 4.1 per cent increase across the UK as a whole.

* Wales had the second lowest average weekly earnings amongst UK countries and English regions in 2006, after the North East (£466.7).


So its nearly the poorest paid, its getting worse and you have to go to Newcastle to find anywhere worse. Cardiff ariports problems have nothing to do with management or operations and everything to do with a small and poor catchment area.

Lovely place and lovely people though.

AP

[a1234]

The figures for Wales are highly unreliable for Cardiff simply because it doesn't take into account that vast areas of mid and north wales, which are undoubtedly very poor areas of the UK yes, but are hardly catchment areas for CWL. Compare this with the GDP figures for Cardiff and the Vale alone which produce £8.335bn a year. And that's only £3bn behind Bristol, North Somerset and Gloucestershire! I recently read that by 2015 Cardiff will have narrowed the gap further. So you can hardly say Cardiff cannot support a good regional network of business flights and holiday flights - the fact is that Cardiff, if it had an airport with a few more links - would attract a lot more inbound passengers and tourists than BRS as well.

Don't forget that Swansea and West Wales don't have an airport of their own and their figures can generally be added to the CWL catchment figures. 10 -15% of CWL's pax are from the South West as well so despite the fact that BRS has better links than CWL there are still South Western pax coming to CWL, which just shows that CWL's catchment area can also extend east towards Bristol.

[MerchantVenturer]

Probably the bottom line is that the Bristol City region is more populous and more prosperous than the comparable Cardiff one - but certainly not to the extent that the disparity in airport passenger figures and routes would indicate.

Figures provided by both the CAA and the airports suggest that both airports take approximately 10% of their passenger numbers from the other’s core catchment area, although in actual numbers it means a lot more South Wales pax use BRS than West Country people use CWL.

Bristol might enjoy two advantages over CWL in that its relative success suggests the quality of its management team is higher, and it also has a lot more well-off people who want to use their dosh for leisure travel – many of these live away from the immediate city conurbation in places like the Cotswolds and the shire counties of Wiltshire and Somerset. It is likely that some could be attracted to CWL (or to EXT or SOU or BHX) if the right product was available.

In fact, it happened to an extent when bmibaby first flew out of CWL and had very low, probably loss-leader, fares on the sun routes also flown by easyJet from BRS. For a time the Bristol Evening Post carried stories of people who lived near BRS travelling across the bridge to save money on their air fare. It largely died out when baby raised their fares to more realistic levels.

BRS master plan figures show 45% of its passengers come from the former Avon area with 25% from Bristol itself. Other significant areas that each provide around 10% or slightly higher of BRS's pax are South Wales, Devon and Somerset.

CWL on the other hand enjoys a site without the physical restrictions that occur at BRS and is able to take larger aircraft on longer routes. CWL also has access to a RDF, something not available at BRS.

If the two airports are to get anywhere near their 2015 annual passenger figure targets they will have to grow at an almost identical pace in real terms over the next nine years: CWL from 2 million to 5 million and BRS from just under 5 ¾ million to near 9 million.

[TwinAisle]

ABeamPoints

You are using statistics rather as a drunk uses a lamp-post - rather more for support than illumination.

Cardiff's population is NOT the same as Wales' population. To say that Wales has a lower average income than the rest of the UK forgets a couple of key points:

1. Parts of Wales are relatively very deprived - mainly the Mid Wales farming communities. This means that the average for Wales is lowered, and DOES NOT imply that Cardiff must be poor compared to the UK.
2. Figures for the UK include the considerable skewing effect of London and the Home Counties. I would bet that all the cities in the UK are behind London in terms of growth and prosperity; why don't you present figures that compare Cardiff and the immediate hinterland (including, as Flower noted, the affluent Vale area) with, say, Bristol, Newcastle etc - rather than use the whole country's stats and try to draw local conclusions from them?

No-one here is saying that CWL should be the size of STN or LGW. We know that, like just about every other regional airport in the UK, the local catchment does just not support that. What we are saying - and MV, as ever, hits the nail on the head - is that given the catchment, the communications and the general growth in the Cardiff area, the airport should be doing sharply better than it is.

Blaming the airport for airline failures is, I am afraid to say, fatuous. Using the airport as the common factor for failed airlines is rather akin to saying that coffins kill dead people, since all dead people have them.

CWL did not kill BA - BA did that. If CWL killed BA, then I name as co-defendents PLH, MAN, BHX, BRS, ABZ and every other airport that BACon were at.

CWL did not kill Cambrian. That was BA as well.

CWL did not kill Air Wales. People who worked there know who did that.

Flower, your pitch is safe if I get Harry! :\

[flower]

Flower, your pitch is safe if I get Harry! :\

I seem to remember he rather got you :}

[a1234]

I just wanted to know really why did Air Wales collapse? I find it odd because from the news archives everywhere all you can see is 'Air Wales adds new routes', 'air wales pax boom' etc etc so why did it suddenly just dissapear?

[a1234]

'So its nearly the poorest paid, its getting worse and you have to go to Newcastle to find anywhere worse.'


So why has the North East - a poorer region than Wales - have an airport that boasts ryanair, easyjet as well as lufthansa and boast links to Brussels, Milan and Rome while the wealthier catchment area around Cardiff Airport doesn't?

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Whatever way the numbers crunch the sad fact remains that CWL has been unable to nurture nor keep any kind of decent airline presence over the last 20 years. Hopefully that will change.

Everyone North of Brecon uses Birmingham or Manch/Lpool. Which leaves you with tiny little Cardiff all dressed up in its new dockland frock and then the horrors of Merthyr, Ponty and the rest of the economic black hole that is South Wales. Perhaps thats the real reason. Doubtless the Cardiff City Slickers and Glamorgan Cricket Club types will puff themselves into a fit of indignation but I'm Welsh and I have to drive through a lot of it and you can't deny that a lot of it is very rough.

Cheers

WWW

[TwinAisle]

Now I know disagreeing with a mod is a bit of a no-no.

So let me start with the things I agree with WWW over.

CWL has been unable to nurture nor keep any kind of decent airline presence over the last 20 years

Well, unfortunately pretty accurate.

a lot of it is very rough

Thought you worked in BRS? Not been to Bedminster then? Bits of almost every area of the planet are grim.

But.

Everyone North of Brecon uses Birmingham or Manch/Lpool.

Drivel, I am afraid.

the economic black hole that is South Wales

Well, it looks a hell of a lot more affluent from where I sit than great chunks of the rest of the UK. Are we the richest bit? No. But as I said, we should have more aviation success than we do.

Cardiff City Slickers and Glamorgan Cricket Club types

For the record, I don't associate with either camp.

Cardiff's biggest problem as an airport being honest is other people's attitudes - and in many cases, the attitudes of Welsh people like you, WWW. I have worked in the airline business for donkey's years, not as a pilot, but in higher management, and trust me, there is a real attitude of "Taffy wants an airline? Don't be silly". The majority of this attitude comes from people born west of Chepstow.

[flower]

There is no question that South Wales in the past has suffered from economic disasters, some of us would say the Welsh Assembly Government is yet one more of those but the place is changing. It is all well and good for those who say they pass through or visit that it is some seedy backwater but those of us who live and work here would beg to differ.
As with any succesful city and we have two particularly good sized ones, Cardiff and Swansea, there is always drift towards the outlying areas, we are seeing the gentrification of many Valleys towns nowclose to the urban areas.

As a Mid Wales lady I know how the preferred option is Cardiff but as well know if you can't get the flights you go elsewhere hence the drift from Wales to Birmingham and Bristol. The passengers are there they are flying from other airports. North Wales does not come into the equation when we talk about Cardiff airport which again distorts any figures which may have been quoted.

It should be doing far better as Twin Aisle says, the sad fact is though that the only Airline of late that has put any real commitment into Cardiff was Air Wales. What a crying shame a certain someone didn't listen to the experts.

[pipertommy]

Sorry but i still standby my belief that FLYBE is good news for Cwl!
I say this because cardiff is`nt exactly fighting off the low-cost carriers,considering two are operating quite close already!As pointed out already Exeter has`nt faired to badly with Flybe.The size and capability of this airline compared to say Eastern,must be looked at ie emb 195!:)

[TwinAisle]

Sorry, PiperTommy, the "flybe did well by EXT" argument won't translate to them doing their best for CWL. As I said posts and posts back, what CWL needs is someone who actually cares about CWL as their hometown airport. Remember where flybe is based!

cardiff is`nt exactly fighting off the low-cost carriers

I suggest you don't actually know this. My point in any case was that flybe being here makes life that little bit harder for anyone looking to set up a low cost base at the airport.

EMB195 at CWL? Dreaming I am afraid!

[pipertommy]

I can see your point!But we don`t know what is in store!!Why not emb 195?Got to base them somewhere:) Would be nice to have a big low cost i agree,But time is rolling on and nothing to date has happened.

[TwinAisle]

Why no 195s? Cheeky Visual sussed this one pages back.

there is absolutely NO WAY Flybe will ever put anything through CWL other than the Q400 BHX, SOU, EXT are much further up the food chain in FLYBE and the very small number of 195s they are having are already allocated

They really haven't ordered that many of these things you know...

[EGTE]

Many people tend to forget that, whilst headquartered at Exeter, the airport was for many years the poor relation in Flybe's network. Only services to Belfast, Dublin and the Channel Islands were operated. Since the new services began to be introduced a couple of years ago Exeter has boomed. Why should Cardiff not experience the same?

[TwinAisle]

Because flybe won't be headquartered at CWL, perhaps? :ugh:

[pipertommy]

Exactly EGTE:ok: Guess we could go on all day about this,time will tell what there plans for Cardiff are.I`m in work today and the place is dead?

[flower]

We need increased frequency on flights to Ireland, the capacity has dropped considerably since both Air Wales and Ryanair departed, Paris needs filling urgently and with only one flight per day to Glasgow that surely must be an option.
I'm told that BMI Baby could increase their frequency on both Malaga and Edinburgh and still have all the flights full.( no figures to back me up on that just hearsay)

I don't think places such as Rome ,Budapest, Nice etc would necessarily have a chance as a daily flight but maybe a number of flights a week could work?

Yet again this morning a discussion amongst non airport people ( My Physio class) they all said I want to fly from Cardiff but can't get the flights, something needs to be done.

[TwinAisle]

Whilst Flower's assessment is pretty much in line with mine, the whole argument on this thread is the wrong way around.

It is largely not up to the airport to say which routes are going to be operated. That is a job for the airlines. The airport's role in this is to try and attract airlines according to a strategy.

The whole concept of "we need routes to X, Y and Z" is an interesting moot point, but means nothing from an airline perspective. What the airlines normally look for is a sensible catchmment and the chance of making a buck or three.

I say normally.

I don't think that flybe's decision to come to CWL is based on purely economic grounds. I noted what I think they are up to earlier. If I am even remotely right, then flybe's coming to Cardiff is extremely BAD news - it is akin to throwing a pike into your fishpond because the goldfish are being a bit boring, and need to be livened up a tad.

[On standby]

Been thinking about this all week. The more I think about it the more I believe everyone who has any input at CWL needs a kick up the A*se.

The Airport Management are bad at managing almost everything they manage. Building work at the height of summer,etc.

Air Traffic promised good times when they got the SIDs & STARs (we think things are worse now than before). Constant levelling off in climb/descent vectoring, etc. Not necessarily the controller's fault you understand.

Airlines need to be more pro active. Baby sitting there with 3 A/C wasting the potential. Ryanair pulling out.

The powers that be need to get the infrastructure and facilities in place.

Its only us poor pilots that are perfect (joking).

It's almost as if CWL expects to grow in line with BRS just because its there.

It must start from the top the Welsh Assembly (etc) and CWL management must provide a viable attractive airport facility for airlines and passengers. Easier access and an upto date adequately sized terminal would be a start.

[flower]

Air Traffic promised good times when they got the SIDs & STARs (we think things are worse now than before). Constant levelling off in climb/descent vectoring, etc. Not necessarily the controller's fault you understand.
.

Can you PM me with your problems so we can look at them for you, it may be we can give you an explanation for or maybe it is something we need to look at.

[teifiboy]

For Cardiff to be successful in the long term, it needs to be competitive and services need to be profitable in their own right. The new Barcelona service is receiving £500,000 assistance from the Welsh assembly. How ironic that the Labour Chancellor is trying to curb our flying habits by slapping on yet another tax, whilst the Labour controlled Welsh Assembly is subsidizing £19.99 flights to Barcelona. Surely subsidies are totally anti competitive and short term incentives?

[bycrewlgw]

Hi Teifiboy I was just going to post pretty much the same thing. While I agree that a RDF is needed to connect remote communities with large cities (such as in Scotland) where there is no other option other than to fly, I don't think it is right to use public money for ventures like this. The health service is a shambles and educational institutions leave a lot to be desired! This money could have been better utilised in these sectors!!!

[a1234]

Well actually the Scottish RDF was used to help set up Berlin with easy from GLA and to help bring Jet2 to EDI.

[TwinAisle]

Another great example of joined up government from the current shambolic administrations, both in Cardiff and London....

What is worse is that we are now being stiffed twice - once by the Idiot Brown through APD, and once by the Idiot Morgan through our general taxes....

[teifiboy]

Well actually the Scottish RDF was used to help set up Berlin with easy from GLA and to help bring Jet2 to EDI.

still doesn't make it right

[TwinAisle]

still doesn't make it right

Couldn't agree more. If you want to see the proof of what public subsidy does to the airline business, have a look at Alitalia....

[xtypeman]

I am now goimg to enter the Flybe debate.

You need to look at the Flybe fleet the 195s will replace the 146s quite right that CWL will be bottom of the food chain also BACON 146s to go as well.

I was reading Jetone on line with an article about Flybe BACON merge they went through all the Flybe bases and BHD had service reductions on all routes except BHX this has thrown up a spare D8. Look at how NWI started this was an a/c out of BHD on a W pattern with services to GLA and ABZ but once a day. Test the waters is what Flybe will do my guess is they will have a look at GLA. Forget longer services look more at Northen France.

BRS is also highly p.... ..f with Flybe. They held a meeting with all regional airlines except Flybe to offer support to any airline taking on a Flybe route.

Flybe pulled off BHD NWI and went on DUB a route built by Air Wales.


What killed Air Wales. You have to look right at the top of the tree for that problem.:ugh: Sound advice was given frequently but totally ignorded. One suggestion was to put two aircraft in to charter market one in pax one in freight. This is now happening with CDFF in pax back in service and a QC conversion happening on SSEA in the spring(its already in the hangar) operated by Aurigny sold commercially by flight line with no commercial input by the top of the tree. Maybe this time it will make a bit of money at least for AUR and FLT.

[SAM-EMA]

HEY!

Thomsonfly have announced a 4x weekly service between Cardiff and Barcelona operated by a Boeing 737-300.

(sorry if this has already been posted)

SAM-EMA

[Smile!!!]

Yes, it has. Not to mention with £500,000 RDF money. It is good news though and I will certinaley use the service in S07

[PhilM]

Well, with the weather the way it is, I'd like to ask the ATCOs a question :)

How much would it cost to upgrade Cardiff to Cat3? (Generally speaking) Are there any reasons that it couldn't be Cat3? Terrain etc?

If the airport did upgrade, would it ever break even on it from the income generated from flights during weather like today etc. And, finally, would it all be worth it with Bristol being Cat3 just up the road? :ok:

Cheers, Phil

[flower]

I couldn't tell you the cost they don't let ATCOs near money :8
What would be needed to upgrade to CAT 3 is a Midpoint Transmissometer, and supplementary lighting, the ILS is already capable of CAT 3.
It certainly wouldn't be cheap. I'm not sure on the terrain requirements and if Cat 3 is even possible on either end.

I suppose they have to decide whether the cost is worth it when we may be affected on just a handful of days a year, however the airlines may have other ideas on that front.

edited to add the taxiway lighting system would also have to be upgraded

[Standard Noise]

I suppose they have to decide whether the cost is worth it when we may be affected on just a handful of days a year, however the airlines may have other ideas on that front.
I'm sure we could accomodate!

Incidentally, quarterly Base Capts meetings have been set up with the Airport Authority and ourselves so we can thrash out any operational problems that may arise. The base capts at Briss have also been furnished with an email address at ATC so they can send over any concerns which require immediate attention, prolly a better way to do things than moan on PPRuNe. I'm sure flower or one of her oppos on the Tech Committee would be only too happy to sort that out rather than have to charge into battle on here.

Oh yes, watching Torchwood last night, and I read the little on-screen write up - "Three passengers whose plane took off in 1953 make an unexpected landing in present day Cardiff and are shocked to learn they will never be able to turn the clock back."
Not to worry eh, the Airport Authority have done it for them!:E

[flower]

They didn't even land at Cardiff Standard Noise but at RAF St Athan :}

We do have good comms with the base captains at Cardiff and there is regular discussion with them.

I must admit I was surprised yesterday morning to hear what your Vis was at BRS the cloud layer must have been very low.

[TwinAisle]

Quote from the BBC News website:

BA said 184 flights, including European short-haul and domestic, had been cancelled at Heathrow, 16 at Gatwick, 17 at Manchester Airport and four at Cardiff.

Four at Cardiff? How the hell would BA know that, or care?

[Smile!!!]

They could be some maintinance, possibly TA although it certinaley wasnt any BA PAX flights.:confused:

[Smile!!!]

So, CWL has hit the big 2,000,000 mark for 2006,
http://info.cwlfly.com/en/news/4/238/cardiff-airport-passes-2-million-passenger-milestone.html
;with John Horne expecting - Double Digit Growth for 07 - WOW!!!:rolleyes: Really a great ambition! Sorry for my sarcasm (and not pessesism) there, but please.
Then ofcourse there was the multiple, er,ar,er after evey question, quite embarrising for the airport afterall, then my faviroute part of every Wales Tonight(ITV) interview with JH the inevitable BRS question comes up with how they are up to five and a half million PAX. With the further ers and well, furhter ers, a (mumbled(practily)) and half answerd reply. The usual drivvle. There also three new routes for 07 currently, Kos, Barcelona and Nantes are the three mentioned by the ITV correspondent. So, lets just hope 07 brings some good news. The website link states 'and more expected' there words not mine. Some good news for the end of my rant. Then hopefully 08 (*cough* NYC *cough*).:O



Smile!!!:)

[flower]

I understand that between 7 and 9 of the Easy Jet fleet will be operating out of Cardiff this weekend plus EXCEL, I hope we have enough ground crews working.
Bus companies will be raking it in again.

[teifiboy]

So, CWL has hit the big 2,000,000 mark for 2006,
http://info.cwlfly.com/en/news/4/238/cardiff-airport-passes-2-million-passenger-milestone.html
;with John Horne expecting - Double Digit Growth for 07 - WOW!!!:rolleyes: Really a great ambition! Sorry for my sarcasm (and not pessesism) there, but please.
Then ofcourse there was the multiple, er,ar,er after evey question, quite embarrising for the airport afterall, then my faviroute part of every Wales Tonight(ITV) interview with JH the inevitable BRS question comes up with how they are up to five and a half million PAX. With the further ers and well, furhter ers, a (mumbled(practily)) and half answerd reply. The usual drivvle. There also three new routes for 07 currently, Kos, Barcelona and Nantes are the three mentioned by the ITV correspondent. So, lets just hope 07 brings some good news. The website link states 'and more expected' there words not mine. Some good news for the end of my rant. Then hopefully 08 (*cough* NYC *cough*).:O



Smile!!!:)


Look, just accept it. Cardiff is not on the same scale as Bristol and never will be. Bristol handles more than twice as many passengers because twice as many want to turn up there and get on the planes, and NOT because CWL management are not doing their jobs. Bristol has a bigger catchment and more affluent demographic. It's not up to the management of the airport to persuade people and airlines to fly there. It's economics - demand and supply - pure and simple. The demand is far greater on the Saes side.

[GBALU53]

If Bristol can not sort the runway problem quickly then places like Cardiff could well benifit.

With passenger being messed around at Bristol the confidence of travelling from there will decline and passenger will travel from other Airports so it is up to Bristol they are the losers at the moment and the longer it goes on will take a long time to rebuild on what they have lost.

[chrism20]

GBALU53


Fully agree

Everyone at CWL should be pulling out all the stops this weekend to impress, this is the best chance they will get to say we are here and this is what we can do

[babymax]

xl will return s2008 with full programme incl 2 lh routes watch this space.flybe to base 1 atr,also no expansion for ww.

[airhumberside]

Flybe dont operate ATR's

[WATABENCH]

XL wont return either, it costs a lot of money to open a base, close a base then open it again 1 year later, cant see it myself!

[Smile!!!]

I agree with WATABENCH, in that an airline will not open a base for one year just to close it then reopen it after a year it has closed as this would cost a lot of money. Along with ah flybee dont operate ATRs, the only prop they use are Q400. For Summer 08, too I would expect them too have two based aircraft before the end of the year, as long as they are sucsessful with BHD. WW not expanding isnt that hard to believe, but they dont know whet they are doing in tinytown at the moment, so until it officialy announced who knows? (because they certinaley dont:E). All bases except for BXH ofcourse have equal measured need for the extra aircraft, that is if there is still one to come now? But with CWLs website announcing earlier in the week, ;and more (routes) to be expected' though this has now changed, who really knows what 07 will bring. Also on the Bristol thread, there is a rumour of TOM leaving BRS, and moving their 757 to CWL, for S08, good news if it happens, but not that likley to happen, is it:(.

[pipertommy]

So whats exactly happening with FLYBE ?Routes/aircraft at Cardiff?Thanks

[Smile!!!]

Well so far only Belfast City, but I think there may be one more route before 07 is out. Then a possible base in 08. Like what BE does with most new airports, they dip their toes into the water, to test if its to their liking. The problem is BHD, is a bit of an over-serviced route, where yeild will be cut dramaticaly in the summer as bmibaby and flybe fight for PAX. Both going 2xDaily, it will mean a lot of empty seats. With baby being established on the route aswell people may be more likley to look on their site, as I have not seen any BE adverts in the papers. Personally I would of preffered them starting a service to Aberdeen or Newcastle as their first route. The would kill Eastern on the NCL rouite and Aberdeen will have some higher yeilding traffic with about the same amount of PAX on the seats as a BHD service. They are too bases so, there would be no need of a base at CWL, yet. Personaly I would love them to serve CDG, and if a base is announced then I can see that being a major possibility for 08, but they need to be succsesful on the BHD route first and will that happen.:confused: -(I Think-:()

[pipertommy]

Thanks!Very interesting:ok:

[caaardiff]

Also on the Bristol thread, there is a rumour of TOM leaving BRS, and moving their 757 to CWL, for S08, good news if it happens, but not that likley to happen, is it.

I've also heard this, and they have pulled LBA and MME already apparently. There are a number of routes operated from BRS that aren't operated at CWL.
I really hope CWL can pull their finger out and do well over the next few days with the BRS airlines. Plus there hasn't been much time to plan anything!
xl will return s2008 with full programme incl 2 lh routes watch this space.
You never know, my personal belief is that the pulled out to use the a/c elsewhere, not due to poor performance. Now they have more a/c due soon it could be a possibility. They are still operating 3 routes for S07 (x2 under KM a/c)

[babymax]

sorry i didnt know what a/c flybe operated a friend of mine works with them and stated they will base a/c at cwl just testing the water first,i thought there a/c were atrs shows how much i know.regarding xl coming back like caardiff said they didnt pull out due to poor performance they needed the a/c else where,they have 2 737-900 being delivered this year plus 4 more 737-800 and none of them are to replace a/c there joining the fleet.Cardiff is back on there list for s2008 also east midlands and extra a/c at brs for when there contract with air malta runs out.hopefully cwl will learn from there lesson next time and dont triple there fees after 6 months like last year.

[Wellington Bomber]

SMILE

You got the first bit right by dipping toes in water

Then they bugger off!

By the way, high yield passengers prefer good service, not pay pay and more pay once they get on board i.e low cost airlines

[PeterP]

hopefully cwl will learn from there lesson next time and dont triple there fees after 6 months like last year.
What nonsense is this? Please don't post this kind of statement if you cannot support it ... which you can't, as it isn't true.

[SWBKCB]

. Personally I would of preffered them starting a service to Aberdeen or Newcastle as their first route. The would kill Eastern on the NCL rouite and Aberdeen will have some higher yeilding traffic with about the same amount of PAX on the seats as a BHD service. They are too bases so, there would be no need of a base at CWL, yet.
While I'm sure BE would do well on CWL-NCL and ABZ, NCL isn't a Flybe base and I don't think ABZ is either (and why doesn't everybody give Eastern a break!!):confused: :confused:

[ncleflights]

SWBKCB

Its not so much giving Eastern a break as, and I can only speak for the Newcastle route, the aircraft that they are using are too small for this route. I have on a number of occasions had to travel to Bristol an drive to Cardiff as the Eastern flights have been full. This is parrticularly true on a Monday and Friday, I never had this problem with Air Wales when then ran the route. Folks not been able to get a seat on the plane is bad for Cardiff airport and the economy of the airport itself. I would be more than happy to give Eastern a break as I have no problems with there in flight service but they have completly the wrong aircraft on this route.

On the flybe issue on the front page of our local newpaper here in Newcastle at the beginning on December was a interesting news item about Newcastle becomming the next BE base. Quite a few new routes were given by BE as possibilities for this new base and Cardiff was one route. We are expecting and announcement before the end of January. Hopefully this will come off.

Thanks

[Smile!!!]

NCL isn't a Flybe base and I don't think ABZ is either


Yes just checked and neither of them are BE bases, sorry:{

Wellington Bomber- To substansuate a point, yes the Eastern flughts to NCL are often full on Mon' and Friday, there is a shown deamand for a Q400. High yeilding PAX do want further service than a LOCO will offer. But a challenge, persay, if both BE and Eastern offered a LOCO service for CWL-NCL wich would most companies prefer to chose, unless they were high up BE I think. And if you did it on Eastern and I did it on BE, you paid for nothing extra and I had a bottle of Champagne and food, which would be cheaper? Hmm. Plus BE offers a Econemy + section on the plane so, would 'mop up' most of Eastern PAX:E

Smile!!!

[Wellington Bomber]

Smile

Except maybe that you arrived in NCL in the middle of the day and I arrive early morning and return the same day, where as you have to overnight to catch the return flight as the aircraft is doing something else on its return to Cardiff maybe some remote French village, where it goes tech and you have your flight cancelled because it is a low cost carrier and you have paid for no frills.

Eastern will find another aircraft or possibly reroute the Southampton into Cardiff first. I rest my case while you have your champagne in the Newcastle Travel Inn or GNER buffet car

[Smile!!!]

Teething problems with the Q400 is no argument, those old J42s, arent exactly reliable now are they. And what do you mean I arrived in the middle of the day? I was basing it on a made up scenario where flybe operated the NCL-CWL segments, they would go in the morning.

Can that frankly be the end of the argumenet. Please PM me with further arguments.

Back on to CWL, it looks absolutley packed today! Like a busy summers afternoon. Lets hope it will attract some airlines to CWL!

[DanielP]

Hi!

Just a quick question to the Cardiff regulars-

How are you all getting on at Cardiff with the extra workload? Is the infrastructure holding up OK?

There were so many aircraft there when I came by, it looked like a "what might have been" shot (or possibly "what fans of CWL would prefer to have"!).

Daniel

[gerrymouse33]

Hi all,
This is my first posting on this site having just registered, and I would just like to say that I am a huge supporter of Cardiff Airport, and would really like it to be successful. We do need to see new airlines and new routes being developed from Cardiff, however, with so much opportunity for new destinations, why does Fly be want to serve a city (Belfast) that is already well served by BMI BABY?. They would be far more successful in developing a new route like Paris. Likewise, why did BMI BABY enter the Amsterdam route as that is already well served by KLM?.

Finally for now, congratulations to all the staff at Cardiff for all their hard work in coping with the extra workload of the last few days, due to the problems over at Bristol. Well done.

[TwinAisle]

Can somebody please explain to me this fascination with a route from Cardiff to New York?? If Cardiff is to get longhaul, the Middle East would be a far better bet I would have thought....
Re flybe - the reason they are doing BHD we covered in depth earlier - they are testing the water for the forthcoming bunfight with baby at BHX....
KLM and baby? Easy one - KLM don't really fly people to AMS - they fly people via AMS to somewhere else in the main. Baby fly people to AMS, since they have no interline agreements.

[pipertommy]

Got to say,working the last couple of days how impressed i was with Cardiff:) taking all things in to consideration it was on the surface a success:ok: No doubt there was the odd hick-up,but think on it as a good bit of training(busy ops with fast turn arounds) for the airport as a whole.well done.Shame the ghost town will be back soon:(

[CheekyVisual]

Watching the BRS fiasco from afar the thing that made me laugh / cry was the interviews with the passengers. Nearly all the ones I saw were complaining (in a strong Welsh accent) that they had driven to BRS from south wales and now had to be bused back again. Nearly all were quoted as flying to destinations served from CWL, which begs the obvious question !!!! I know it is a busy time of year but it was an interesting indication of the problem CWL based airlines have with people's perception that EasyJet are at BRS and that is the cheapest way to do anything.

Holidaying in sunny south wales over Christmas had several interesting discussions with people who insisted they went EasyJet from BRS instead of Baby from Cardiff because they were always a few quid cheaper ! They didn't seem to have an answer to "well how much does it cost to drive to and park at BRS then?". Quality thinking. "Hey if we spend a couple of hudred quid more we can save a fiver!"

That's CWL's and all the airlines problem. For example I asked someone why they went to DUB from BRS. The answer was because Ryanair don't fly from Cardiff anymore. These are ordinary, actually reasonably intelligent, people living around Cardiff. This is why BRS is taking so much business from South Wales EasyJet and Ryaniar are perceived to be cheaper than Baby and the nieche operators at CWL. I'll try and remember that when I use my £5 baby ticket to Alicante next week !

[flower]

Yes Cheeky Visual ,
so much for the argument always thrown back at us about no one in Wales flies or the catchment area isn't big enough. Loads and loads of Welsh accents there on all the news reports, very disappointing that they go to Bristol not Cardiff but as so often is the case you can't get the flights from Cardiff or EasyJet is just so cheap in comparison.
I've just had a phone call from a friend in the North East wanting to fly down here asking me if I knew of any other operator other than Eastern flying into Cardiff , they don't want to pay Easterns prices so they think they will fly into Bristol instead at a much lower cost and take the hit on the extra time involved, all a crying shame.

[caaardiff]

John Horne was on BBC Wales this afternoon. Short but funny interview as he seemed very smug about how well its all gone (Which it has - well done to all staff involved!) and even more smuggly being asked how well CWL has capitalised on the situation both financially and by using this to attract other airlines, but avoiding giving a direct answer to the reporter on the subject, and sending his deepest sympathy to BRS for their unfortunate situation they've had to deal with! :ok: :D
Its nice to see that after the bashing CWL got for the recent fog delays, that they rose to the occasion in order to help BRS out as much as possible, as BRS did a few weeks ago for CWL.
Lucky its winter season, and shame there wasnt more stands to park planes though!!!!!!:ugh:

[Smile!!!]

I must agree whith you there. John Horne has had a lot to be smug about this week, 2,000,000 PAX (though please see my post above) Now the BRS fiasco as Incompetant BRS unable to competentley resurface a runway, while wonderful CWL manges to handle 3 times its usual traffic. But will it win the day?

[a1234]

I've always been obvious that alot more Welsh pax fly from BRS than the airports official masterplan suggests (10%). Some figures in the echo a while back stated that its nearer 25-30%. There was a family on the news who were from Bridgend and they were moaning about why they couldn't just check in straight away at CWL for Majorca, despite the fact that if they had looked in the first place they could have gone with baby and thomsonfly! Regarding DUB though it is actually worth going over to BRS with FR because sometimes the prices are just too high with Aer Arann!

It is quite silly really for people to be using easyjet for places like EDI, GLA because baby are cheaper in my experience on the domestic routes by some margin. The airport really needs to start marketing itself better or perhaps baby should actually advertise its routes more, because frankly over the last year I've seen more easy adverts in Cardiff than ones for baby!

[Smile!!!]

Right a1234 I have in 06, can honestly say outside the airport I have seen, no, zero, 0, zilch baby adverts on billboards or in the papers. While about 15/20 adverts, all bar one, dare I say, a baby destination (the other being Croatia). I could go down the road in two minutes and see a EZY billboard. Right next to a Zoom one. Yet I have also seen EZY adverts in the Western Mail, Wales on Sunday. baby mind sponsers the ITV weather, and thats about it. Considering I watch the BBC news I dont really see them. I have also seen baby being cheaper than EZY on domestics and with BE this year Belfast prices are going to drop. While what they should do is have higher fares domesticaly and lower on internationals. As people are willing to travel to BRS for the likes of AGP, PMI and ALC, but BIZ PAX will want to fly from nearer to their homes. Well thats my opinion anyway

[luddite]

There are an awful lot of buses round here painted up in baby colours. Maybe the locals can't read a moving target?
:confused:

[soggyboxers]

I'm still annoyed that bmi don't fly to Paris any more. Maybe I'm one of the few people on the planet who prefer Air Chance to KLM (now that KLM and Air Chance are supposedly as one and I see KLM as the loser, from a customer point of view). I now have to travel to Paris via Amsterdam. If that were unavailable I'd actually go to Heathrow rather than put up with the journey to Bristol airport. However, it's about time that there was a decent direct link from the M4 to CWL rather than enduring the 'death of a thousand roundabouts, on the present route :uhoh:

[pipertommy]

I`m sure there was plans to straighten out the five mile lane that were made public,but nothing has came of it:ugh:

[Smile!!!]

There are an awful lot of buses round here painted up in baby colours. Maybe the locals can't read a moving target?
:confused:

You mean the airport one (meaning one litterally)? Plus seen first CWL-BHD advert yesterday in the Echo! From £21.99 near the middle on the Shirley Bassey special page.

True that a lot of PAX at BRS had Welsh and one moaning about going from Swansea to BRS to CWL, to go to AGP. Please, one of the most frequently flown routes from CWL, baby daily, TOM 5x weekly, never mind FCA and co in the winter. Fly from CWL PAX!

Smile!!!

[DanielP]

Don't forget Cardiff has a rail link as well, so "death by roundabouts" isn't the only way!

The service ain't super-posh, but it's regular and does the job. I would guess that there would need to be more regular scheduled demand at the airport before anyone will start considering a direct shuttle train that doesn't stop at every single station on the way.

I don't think that time-wise, the transport links take any longer than many other major international airports, it's just that the road system in the Vale is pretty (totally?) hopeless. The "magical mystery tour" that is the recommended car / coachlink to Bristol is just as bad to be honest.

Daniel

P.S. It would be a shame to see five mile lane turned into a safe, straight, wide truck route- I also know that the wealthy and influential residents of St Nicholas are also pretty anti-trunking.

[MerchantVenturer]

Boys and Girls, it isn't all a one-way thing.

I live in the south-east of Bristol an area that is probably the most onerous Bristol district to reach CWL from by road - it means driving right across or almost right around the city. And yet a neighbour always uses CWL to fly to AGP on holiday. Neither he nor his wife are Welsh (so no loyalty thing) but he did it once and has got into the habit. They live fifteen minutes by road from BRS.

I know and know of a lot of other people in the area who also use CWL at times.

BTW, quite a lot of people with Welsh accents live in the Bristol area so some of those BRS pax you hear from time to time might not have come across the bridge to fly at all.

Flybe seem good at advertising when they set up at a new airport. Two or three years ago every Bristol bus seemed to be bearing Flybe or easyJet adverts. Flybe also sponsors the Bristol-based ITV West local weather report - a bit odd considering they seem to be about to depart from BRS.

Two or three years ago there was also a First Bristol double decker painted completely in Cardiff Airport insignia and routes on service around Bristol.

Furthermore, there is still a perception amongst some in the Bristol area that CWL is a bigger airport (in terms of usage, it is physically of course) with more routes. It probably has its roots in the fact that CWL has been the place to use for Florida, Toronto and the Caribbean.

From this side of the Severn it seems to me that airlines are increasingly realising that CWL is under-served and that with the right product there are opportunities going begging.

[a1234]

Why is GLA down to just one a day from March?! What a joke there will be four daily Belfast flights from May but just one for glasgow?!

How will this support business pax the only option will be to use BRS as always.

[Smile!!!]

To be fair to ww, they announced Glasgow to go to 1xdaily and BFS to 2xdaily before BE announced BHD. It is quite possible BE may go to Glasgow before 07 is out, if they expand their 'base' at CWL, BRS a two hour drive from Cardiff at rush hours? Think not.

MV I didnt realise that CWL had such a large user base near BRS, the L/H routes from CWL must certinaley be helping the image of CWL, so the runway issue at BRS. I do think though that some people think that BRS is a much smaller airport than it actually is, I know my freind though it was, when he couldnt get a flight to go to Barcelona insted of oging to BRS, he went to MAN, as it isnt served from CWL (but in the summer TOM will start a 4 weekly service from CWL year round!). Good work too all CWL airport staff who did well in the recent situation!

[CheekyVisual]

I heard from someone that Baby have not been able to recover the loads on the GLA that were lost when Air Wales moved the route from GLA to PIK. A lot of loyal pax switched to BRS and have not returned. EDI has always been the stronger route. and if they have to make the same resources do more destinations some regularity has to give. There definately isn't the business on BFS/BHD for 4 flights a day. Having operated the route there is barely enough for one ! Something is going to have to give. If Baby give Fly Be will move hard on the domestic routes at CWL and BHX against Baby especially as they seem to be giving EASY and Ryanair a very wide berth at BRS and EMA.

That of course is if Fly Be have any pilots to fly them or trainers to train the pilots ! All of BACON and large percentage of Fly Be looking to get out.

Baby would like to expand CWL, EMA and BHX. However, there is a massive lack of 733s and 735s in the market. There are no 73NGs available unless you are Ryanair, Air Berlin or Southwest. Baby have to make a decission about where the ONE aircraft they have got can make the most difference. CWL to defend against Fly Be and TOM, BHX to actively fight Fly Be, or EMA to defend against Ryanair. If they could get another two CWL would definately get another aircraft and with Ryanair expanding from 3 a/c to 10 a/c at EMA this year my money is on it going there. Unfortunately ! Personally I would put in CWL (but I'm biased) you can't fight Ryanair and you're mad to try !

Still keeping my fingers crossed for CWL though !

[a1234]

The downgrading of GLA is such a dissapointment though because this is the second most popular domestic route and has always been popular whenever I have flown. Lets just hope Flybe will take this route on because it would be worthwile and they could probably provide more frequencies.

I suspect that the route will lose even more pax now to BRS, its not very good for business pax because 1 a day is just not good enough.

Any news of Flybe announcing their merged network later in the month? Is it likely they will publish any more routes for CWL because Paris and Nice were rumoured last month.

[Voldermort]

Cheeky Visual
Just for info Air Wales did not move the route,BMI baby switched it from GLA to PIK in late July 03 and Air Wales started operating on Babys behalf on the 28th March 04:ok:

[UPS@EMA]

with Ryanair expanding from 3 a/c to 10 a/c at EMA this year my money is on it going there.

Where did you hear that one?

I had the pleasure or should i say delight of actually trying Cardiff out last week with TOM and im impressed with the airport. Still want more services to EMA but it was a pleasant experience at CWL

Regards

Stu

[Smile!!!]

I havent heard of Ryanair basing 10 a/c at EMA next year either although they have announced a major expasion for this year. With also EZY strong at EMA, WW would be stupid to take them on under such a situation. The only real options for new bases are therfore MAN and CWL. With CWL having BE and TOM putting extra strain on them this year I think it quite right they should base an extra a/c at CWL. BE are going for them a Birmingham aswell and the baby needs to 'defend its turf!' (Me being kool there:O)

I had the pleasure or should i say delight of actually trying Cardiff out last week with TOM and im impressed with the airport. Still want more services to EMA but it was a pleasant experience at CWL


Well the airport has certinaley changed over the years, and is a hell of a lot better than it was, say in 2000 from a PAX point of view!

[CheekyVisual]

Heard 10 a/c at EMA from an EMA based Ryanair skipper. He said a year but he might have mean't eventually. He does like to "big up" the harpies to anyone who'll listen ! Still think Baby will try to defend EMA but I don't think they can win. Everyone I know says they hate flying with Ryanair but they still seem to fill their seats. CWL or BHX would present the best return on a/c 21 that's where the most potential is.

As for Air Wales and PIK. It was an ex Air Wales Captain that told me Air Wales ruined the route. Sorry if that caused offence I know it was not the fault of anyone working at the sharp end !

Just looked at the latest Fly Be plan and there is still no mention of extra CWL routes this year but GLA would be a strong bet for a further expansion.

[TwinAisle]

Air Wales ruined the route

Not true. The nature of the Air Wales and bmibaby marketing agreement was that baby told Air Wales where to fly, and when. Baby sold the seats, Wales delivered them - and did a great job of it too, for the record. AW had nothing to do with the timing of the route, PIK v GLA, fares or anything else.

TA

[nospeedrestriction9]

Not true. The nature of the Air Wales and bmibaby marketing agreement was that baby told Air Wales where to fly, and when. Baby sold the seats, Wales delivered them - and did a great job of it too, for the record. AW had nothing to do with the timing of the route, PIK v GLA, fares or anything else.

TA

Under the bmibaby marketing agreement Air Wales had no control over the bmibaby fares. Many people will remember that it was the decision of bmibaby to transfer the route from GLA to PIK before Air Wales took over the operation of the route.

bmibaby operates in a limited market at Cardiff, with lower demographics of the South Wales area and a lower overall propensity to fly I can't see bmibaby ever expanding to a large extent.

[a1234]

CWL has hardly got a small catchment area or the people are less keen to fly, when you see how many Welsh people are flying from BRS!

[xtypeman]

AW took over the route from Baby who had changed the destination to PIK from GLA. If you had looked at the CAA ststs for the route the figures did not change and the numbers equated to a double daily ATR route figures that were held all the time AW operated. When Baby took the route back it was to GLA but the loads work out at less than a 737 load a day one rotation. There where lots of happy regulars using PIK who complained to AW when Baby a) took route back and b) changed dest to GLA. PIK has a station with 50% off rail fares to all of Scotland and only 20 minutes to Glasgow Queen Street at the wrong time of the day its longer by road from GLA to the city centre.

Any one heard of oneWales they have put in a bid for CWL-Valley with a metroliner?

Ps. CDFF going to SEN 15th SSEA expected mid Feb

[TwinAisle]

a lower overall propensity to fly

Ooooh, I love arguing this one!

The lower propensity to fly of the South Welsh is often thrown into the face of Cardiff's supporters. For the record, it is a horse manure statistic that shouldn't be used in this context.

Yes, on a straight calculation, the South Welsh DO have a lower propensity to fly - for the simple reason that, if you live west of Cardiff, you have a LONG trip to an airport, which makes your cheap weekend in Paris/Berlin etc etc a pain in the bum. Propensity to fly is a blunt weapon based in the main on ABILITY to fly - if someone lives in the southeast of England and can get just about anywhere in Europe from a convenient airport, then of course they will score more highly than someone who has to drive from, say, Llanelli to Bristol to get somewhere.

If Cardiff had the routes, then the PTF from South Wales would rise. PTF onbly has a real purpose if two populations with similar OPPORTUNITY to fly are compared.

TA

[xtypeman]

Twinaisle is correct do not forget you can get stats to say anything you want. Read the ROSCO report on Aviation in the UK as a whole not just in Wales. BRS is a large draw because of its routes yes CWL needs more routes but you have to attract the passengers. When AW did the ORK for Baby passengers where comming from as far as Birmingham as this was the best route for them. LPL did a pax survey on EZY flts and found that a large percentage 50% plus came from East Yorkshire bypassing LBA and MAN. If you look at the ROSCO the greatest PTP in 2000/2002 was in Scotland the lowest in Wales was the north followed by mid. Find the market the passengers want give a good service be fair with ticket price and keep the passengers using the airport. I know a lot of you want FlyBe to expand at CWL but be cautious you do not want eggs in one basket you need a variety of operators running sustainable routes. So CWL needs to attract passengers from a much larger catchment area than just South Wales. Transport links are vital to an airport i know the argument that BRS is dificulty to get to they have got the airlines and the routes that makes up for the ground connections. CWL could look at get Ariva Wales to start train services going to the Airport not just as a local feeder. Was there not a statment that FGW where going to start services to Rhoose. Direct services to West Wales, Mid Wales, Hereford and Gloucester with out a change of train would be a good start. Then maybe the airlines the railways coach operators could go the last mile and intergrate timetables (the holy grail of transport). It is possible just needs some thought. I reguarly commute throught SOU. I land and within 1 hour i am on a train direct to Cardiff. Before Christmas i landed at Shoreham(Brighton International) and again within an hour i was on a train to Cardiff. However my wife then has to drive for nearly two hours to pick me up. Gatwick, Manchester and Stansted have made the train work for them BRS cannot come on CWL a potential big market that would offset carbon as well.

[WOWBOY]

Any one heard of oneWales they have put in a bid for CWL-Valley with a metroliner?


Hi, Do you know of anyother operators that have placed a bid for the route?

WOWBOY

[mathers_wales_uk]

I have spoken to Flybe and they have told me that there will not be an aircraft based at Cardiff, and that there is no plans at the moment to add anymore routes. It has also been announced that Aviance will be the handling agents for them at CWL

Also the Contract for Thomsons is up for grabs with Aviance placing in a bid to handle them, decision to be made shortly.

:ok:

[DanielP]

FYI....
The First Great Western service was going to be an extension of the Portsmouth-Cardiff route. It was in their franchise outline that an hourly extension to Barry and Rhoose should be costed- I think that WAG were going to fund it. The extension appeared in the draft December 06 timetable, and Rhoose / Barry were still listed (but no service) in the final draft. However, nothing turned up in the end.
I think that the biggest problem is that the route from Cardiff to Barry has a train every 15mins + regular freight, so there are capacilty issues.
Pity, because it would also make sense for Arriva to divert some Carmarthen trains via the airport to encourage West Walians to use CWL (as it is their nearest airport). Also if the airlines get the price right, people from the mid-wales / UK border may also be tempted.

At present, the service is hourly, the train going to Cardiff at 07 past the hour and Bridgend at 11 pth. Many people like to avoid Cardiff and go via Bridgend (this links to the London service whilst avoiding commuters!). Arriva wants to put the service to half hourly if funds / rolling stock permits.

I agree that the current service is not exactly the Gatwick Express, but it is a bit of a "chicken and egg" situation- if CWL had more flights (esp a loco), Arriva could justify upgrading the service. I have also made several trips to Manchester Airport in a similar "commuter buckets" with no decent lugage space, so I think the current arrangement is not unreasonable as it goes- no use diverting extra trains for ten pax per day!
Having said that, the exclusivity of the Gatwick Express is also currently under threat, because extra capacity is needed for commuters.
Daniel

[a1234]

I have spoken to Flybe and they have told me that there will not be an aircraft based at Cardiff, and that there is no plans at the moment to add anymore routes. It has also been announced that Aviance will be the handling agents for them at CWL


Well that's a real shame actually. I think many people were hoping that they would take on some routes like Paris or another domestic route such as Aberdeen, which both could work.

[mathers_wales_uk]

Yeah i also heard that they may extend it to the airport, which would be very good and.

I have also heard that they may build a new station near Llantrisant years to come with a Bus link to the airport, because if the InterCity were to run through roose it would increase the journy time considerably.


I am sure that when eastern came to Cardiff they advertised that they were going to start 3 routes which was the NCL, BRU AND THE Aberdeen. To be honest the Eastern didn't really attract pax on the BRU i think the most i seen on there were 5. And i have never seen a Cardiff to Aberdeen Flight.

You never know flybe may add more routes soon, since BMIBaby don't want to expand in the airport this summer.

For those people moaning about the CDG route to be picked up, there is a romour that Thomson may operate it's 737 there in S07.

Can't believe BMIBaby didn't want to add a fourth aircraft at CWL this year, even though were one of the most profitable out of their bases.

:ok:

[CheekyVisual]

My understanding is that Baby would very much like to expand their base at CWL. It is where they make the most money. However, they just can not source anymore 733s or 735s. They can't get NGs without a considerable cost penalty (crew training etc..) even if there were any and the 319 would only be considered at the point of total fleet renewal some way off.

Having spoken to a couple of my fellow exciles who are hoping to return by way of baby it is now increasingly likely baby will put the one aircraft they can source into BHX for the battle with Fly Be. That is their priority. Beat Fly Be and secure the company's future. If they don't they may not be around to expand CWL anyway !

[pipertommy]

Strange why the airport website states FLYBE as opening a "base" at Cardiff.I would have be lead to believe an aircraft would have been based at Cardiff:ugh: It is a shame what about Aberdeen(an old route),Paris,Brussels,Glasgow(only x1 daily soon),Newcastle(i know Eastern),German route,Nice ect

[caaardiff]

Also the Contract for Thomsons is up for grabs with Aviance placing in a bid to handle them, decision to be made shortly.

Thomson and Servisairs contract is one of the longest handling contract in the UK. Cant see them swapping over. The main reason Servisair may be coming back to the ramp was because Thomson were pushing for it after last years ramp problems.

As for FlyBe. Their definately holding back on something. Its either going to be back to BRS, or more expansion at CWL. They are keeping everything very quiet until the end of the month once the BA deal is complete. I wouldnt give up hope just yet. I heard a rumour they would have 3 or 4 a/c based within next few years. The market is there!

[cwl747]

New to this so i guess id start by posting a rumour, that may not have any consistancy but its worth a look.

I found the following on Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CWL

Future plans
The airport's management announced, on 29 March 2006, a £100m development strategy which will see the current terminal being extended, as well as upgrades to the main body of the building.
It is anticipated that the investment will attract up to 5m passengers by 2015 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015) - an increase of 150% - according to the airport's published response to a UK Government White paper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_paper) on the future of commercial aviation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_aviation) throughout the United Kingdom.
Rumour has it that BA will be starting a direct service with a boeing 777-200 aircraft with a daily flight to NEW YORK (JFK) and united airlines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_airlines) will be staring a service to washigton dulles using a 767-300 aircraft.
Further to that Ehiad Airlines (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ehiad_Airlines&action=edit) are looking to open a base at the airport, further details to follow.

United and Ba? never heard of this before, what do you guys think?????

[mathers_wales_uk]

Thomson and Servisairs contract is one of the longest handling contract in the UK. Cant see them swapping over. The main reason Servisair may be coming back to the ramp was because Thomson were pushing for it after last years ramp problems.

Mind i think Thomson don't understand that the majority of the staff are ex-servisair and i heard some of the complaints were regarding the staff. (Maybe the new project manager has got a few tricks up his sleeve).

If baby don't fight at Cardiff though they will loose that, theres a lot of flights being NON/OP over the next few weeks. Thomson are groing at Cardiff, and First Choice don't seem to want to bother after giving us the canadians last year and not basing any rep or engineer here.

Does anyone know when their going to start turning the whole of upstairs into departures? (no doubt the carnage will start in the middle of summer again).

:ok:

[caaardiff]

Mind i think Thomson don't understand that the majority of the staff are ex-servisair and i heard some of the complaints were regarding the staff. (Maybe the new project manager has got a few tricks up his sleeve).
There been a lot of gripes with how Aviance have treated the ramp staff. Changes in rosters... supplying qualifed staff, workload etc.
But saying that, if servisair do take on the ramp, they'll have to take on a fair few new staff and have them trained up in time for the summer. That may go wrong as well unless they put some serious investment in!
As for First Choice. Eventually someone will have taken over them (MyTravel, Thomas Cook, Virgin too apparently)
First Choice are rumoured to have a A321 base during the summer...can anyone confirm this?
Its confirmed MyTravel are.
The way Thomson are going they will dominate the bucket and spade routes over baby, by looks of it, in the summer CWL will be their 3rd largest base next to LGW and MAN,.... and IF Flybe do expand at Cardiff...they will give Baby a run for their money on domestic.
As far as terminal extension goes, they need to finish off everything else first!
Heard the Exec Lounge is doing really well and possible further expansion to that is an option. How about somewhere for the rest of the pax?! A sniff of a delay and its standing room only im afraid!
Now the Staff canteen has gone, they should extend into the service yard..... and how about a small extra domestic arrivals hall by the new pier (by security lodge) to save all the heartache and farcical arguments with immigration and their prescious new hall!!!

[Cyrano]

New to this so i guess id start by posting a rumour, that may not have any consistancy but its worth a look.
I found the following on Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CWL
...
Rumour has it that BA will be starting a direct service with a boeing 777-200 aircraft with a daily flight to NEW YORK (JFK) and united airlines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_airlines) will be staring a service to washigton dulles using a 767-300 aircraft.
Further to that Ehiad Airlines (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ehiad_Airlines&action=edit) are looking to open a base at the airport, further details to follow.
United and Ba? never heard of this before, what do you guys think?????
Welcome to PPRUNE, cwl747!

I'm not sure that I would trust an unlikely-sounding "rumour" coming from someone who can't even spell "Etihad" :rolleyes:

Sanity check: if US carriers like CO with huge onward connecting feed potential are not yet convinced that the CWL market is enough to justify a 757, er... why exactly would BA feel that the CWL-NYC point-to-point market justifies a 777?

So IMHO the author of the Wikipedia rumour sounds like someone with a tenuous grasp of the distinction between reality and adolescent wish-fulfilment fantasy (well, you asked :) )

C.

[mathers_wales_uk]

Now the Staff canteen has gone, they should extend into the service yard..... and how about a small extra domestic arrivals hall by the new pier (by security lodge) to save all the heartache and farcical arguments with immigration and their prescious new hall!!!

I totall agree with Cardiff with this, during the demolition of the tent all flights have to go through imigration (like a normal airport) but immigration has to have a phone call to say that were bringing in a domestic. It would help greatly if there were to be a domestic arrivals over by stand 12/13/14.

It also another good idea to build out to the service yard to extend departures, but the only porblem with that is BK food village and Scrum V bar will all have to move to take the departures out.

On the other hand i believe the reason the canteen has gone is that down the bottom where the aviance ticket desk is located or the canteern/ there will be stairs to enter departures. There will either be a security point on the ground floor or at the top of the new stairs which would make all of upstairs airside. I feel this would be an excellent idea as would cut down on passengers going through into departures at the last minute, and may bring us in some new retail investment.

Where the tend was located, i believe there will be a new extension to the terminal, where either the departures or exec lounge will be extended.





Looking at the first choice web site. From Cardiff there maybe two aircraft based there on a monday as total flying times exceed 24 hours but the remainder of the week's flights total flying time will only support 1 a/c.

:ok:

[jetstream7]

Cyrano... agree with what you post about the rumour fantasies.

cwl747... what you find on Wikipedia is (not uncommonly, unfortunately) a load of rubbish.
Anyway Wikipedia have now reviewed and removed the comment so the handiwork of IP address 86.27.50.130 is no longer viewable

Pipertommy... FlyBE's definition of a base is somewhat loose at best, and seems to consist of any airport where they operate through... I have seen other UK airports described in a similar way to the way they have described CWL as a base on the basis of occasional visits

[WATABENCH]

First Choice are rumoured to have a A321 base during the summer...can anyone confirm this?


No they wont be haveing a 321 based, Skyservice A320 with 17 flights per week at peak period, no visiting FCA's either (not intentionally anyway), have a gander at the First Choice thread.

As for Flybe, I thought this may happen, infact I believe I said earlier in the thread that it doesnt sound like they're baseing, and prob just testing the water :hmm:

[mathers_wales_uk]

No they wont be haveing a 321 based, Skyservice A320 with 17 flights per week at peak period, no visiting FCA's either (not intentionally anyway), have a gander at the First Choice thread.

Yeah the flight deck last summer said that they were coming back in S07 but if you look at the flying schedule there must be a seccond a/c on at least a monday as the total flying times of all 5 routes are over 24 hours.

:ok:

[LGWAlan]

Mathers

Trust what Watabench says - he is DEFINITELY in the know as far as FC ops are concerned.

[caaardiff]

Onur Air are increasing flights. x2 on a sun and x2 on a mon.
I think first choice use the Mon flight, and its also a split with EXT which would explain the extra FCA schedule

[cwl747]

So IMHO the author of the Wikipedia rumour sounds like someone with a tenuous grasp of the distinction between reality and adolescent wish-fulfilment fantasy (well, you asked :) )

C.[/quote]

I was looking for an honest answer, my frined in my college who has a uncle or some relative working on the market board said wizz were sniffing around, any rumours on that yet?

[PeterP]

Unfortunately, the Wikipedia entry on CWL is constantly assaulted by vandals and those who believe it is some kind of blog for their pet theories. Strange that this rarely happens with other airport entries in the encyclopedia. Thankfully, there are enough informed people patrolling the UK airport entries to revert nonsense on the CWL page fairly rapidly.

[mathers_wales_uk]

ok thanks Caardiff it's just people on here are technically caling me a liar but as i posted in the FC Forum the flying times are there on the FC website. Maybe they will be operated by another airline but on mondays in s07

Destination Flying time

Bourgas 3 hours 15 mins
Corfu 3 hours 15 mins
Dalaman 4 Hrs
Funchal 3 hrs 25 mins
Mahon 2 hrs 10 mins

with an hour turnaround between every flight and the same flying time for the return leg, work the maths out for yourself. This is not a rumour it is on the FC website.

[cwl747]

I agree there always seems to be some rubbish in there, the reason i asked though was for the possibility of a middle east connection but i think that Emirates would more likely offer it than Etihad, thanks any way.

cwl747

[Smile!!!]

According to Rhodri Morgan on tonights news, a link from the M4 link is a must and very likley too happen!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/6268427.stm

Although not directly in that piece. This was furhter added to by JH at CWL as needed now, never mind when it opens. The military St Athan base is too open and be FULLY operational by 2013, so it cant be happening to far in the future. FINGERS CROSSED, that the Grand Tour of RoundAbouts of J33 will finally be over!

Also- http://info.cwlfly.com/en/news/2/240/airport-congratulates-metrix.html

At CWL congratulating the project

[mathers_wales_uk]

Yeah i seen that and JH looking very happy. (I'm sure i seen £ signs in his eyes). think of the WAG funding flights to other domestic routes for all Military Personel. Plus an improved transport network. We may actually see cardiff looking like a proper airport soon.

Any signs of added frequency on the Rail link as of yet?

:ok:

[mathers_wales_uk]

Looks like aviance are starting their recruitment campaign for the summer for both front of house and ramp. Dispatchers will be airside soon, but can they trust front of house staff to be there at the gate ready to board and meet the flights?

Anyone know when the porter service for wheelchair passengers will begin at the airport, this will free up staff that usually are needed at the boarding gate.

Any news when airbridge 10 will be back in action? It seems to have dissapeard for a while, doubt the other two will be completed ready by the summer.

:ok:

[FlyboyUK]

Looks like its going to get pretty windy for you guys in CWL today. Here's this morning's TAF

EGFF 180612Z 180716 24035G50KT 9999 -RA BKN020 TEMPO 0712 4000 RADZ BKN010 BECMG 1113 27035G50KT TEMPO 1114 27040G70KT TEMPO 1215 5000 SHRA BKN014

Better hang on to your hats!

[Antdenatale]

Better hang on to your hats!

It was quite bad there this morning, turned up for the WW flight to Belfast and was not surprised it was cancelled. I had problems walking from the car park as it was so gusty :mad:

Well done to the folks at Cardiff this morning, good Customer Service dealing the the cancelled flights :ok:

[mathers_wales_uk]

Antdenatale

Thank you very much for appreciating the customer service that was provided by aviance, nice to see that our efforts are noticed. Hopefully standards will continue to improve by aviance staff and could provide a much better service in the future.

Seen the Eastern Airways try to land on Runway 30 at 8:15am. I dn't even know why he attempted but approx 500 ft from the ground got hit by a crosswinds and tilted about 45 degrees. Thankfully the a/c was ok and pilot made a good decision to divert to Bristol. I doubt landing in a Jetstream during those conditions can't be good.

:ok:

[f1-6 sabre boy]

mathers uk, what do you mean "my staff" your just another brick in the wall like the rest of them. customer service was good in cwl this morning but the trips to the bus shelter to smoke should be cut in half.

[mathers_wales_uk]

mathers uk, what do you mean "my staff" your just another brick in the wall like the rest of them. customer service was good in cwl this morning but the trips to the bus shelter to smoke should be cut in half.

Sorry it was a typing error on my behalf it should have been 'by staff' instead of 'my staff'. I totally agree with you that a lot of cigarette breaks are taken but coming from a non-smoaker like myself, i'm not happy that they go off and have a 'fag break', you don't see other staff going for a 'freash air break'.

Things should drastically change and improve soon, (well i hope) when Aviance dispatchers will be based landside, and there will be a check-in supervisor which will organise the staff for check-in and the meeting/boarding of flights. Whether this will work at the moment with some people thinking they can do what they wan't, time can only tell. It would nice to see a proffessional and discaplined company being run this summer with hopefully a very good bunch of Passenger Services Agents starting for the summer, some staff wern't the best last year and a lot had left after not too long in the job.

:ok:

[mathers_wales_uk]

Bmi Baby Flight arrived with a passenger fainted but came around while a/c was on approach, no further assistance was required.


First Choice Airways from TFS - CWL reported a medical emergency en-route to CWL. Paramedics, Airport first responders and CWL care team were all there to deal with the passenger (Passenger then taken to hospital). Another passenger on board the a/c was then sick as it was being offloaded. (didn't require anymore assistance).

Couple been arested by Airport Police as one swore abuse at the boarding staff, and the other threw everything around at check-In including flowers on the designated Eastern Airways check-In. The agressive behaviour really shoock up the check-in staff.

This was a suprising string of events that happened within a space of a hour and 15 minutes. This shows how even the smallest of airports can have a lot of serious things happening all at once.


To sum it all up the Thomson was delayed 8 hours, the cause is unknown to me, but it could be a knock on effect from the adverse weather conditions yesterday.

:ok:

[WATABENCH]

Mathers - as regards First Choice the extra flights are on the website but will be on other carriers not FCA, just a bit of confusion with FC(holidays) and FCA(airline) :ok:

[mathers_wales_uk]

WATABENCH

Yeah ok thanks, nice to see we could clear that up, started to get worried here at CWL as all the flights were on their site but nothing said to us.lol

:ok:

[caaardiff]

To sum it all up the Thomson was delayed 8 hours, the cause is unknown to me, but it could be a knock on effect from the adverse weather conditions yesterday.

Due to the weather on Thurs. The ALC went 14 hrs late. SSH went 4 hrs late but crew hours caused nightstop in SSH. Also a/c had to fuel stop in Brindisi (Italy) for performance reasons due wind. Knock-on effect too TFS.
The wind did cause a fair few problems on thurs!

[mathers_wales_uk]

Talking to a Captain today and he said the Globespan maybe operating from CWL in the summer, has anyone heard of this rumour and whether or not it is true?

Cheers

:ok:

[cym]

Could he be talking about the codeshare on CWL YYZ/YVR they have with Zoom?

[Smile!!!]

No the code-share between tham finished this February or is it March. I dont think I wouldnt believe this one was likley.

SSH went 4 hrs late but crew hours caused nightstop in SSH. Also a/c had to fuel stop in Brindisi (Italy) for performance reasons due wind

I thought it wnet via 'Frankfurt' (:}) Hahn?

Does anyone know what is going on down in tinytown? Been of it for a few weeks?

Smile!!!

[TwinAisle]

Search is your friend... we covered Globespan pages ago....

[mathers_wales_uk]

im sorry TWINAISLE do you have the thread number for me plz? i'm trying to find it in the search facility but having no luck.

many thanks

:ok:

[TwinAisle]

This thread, 82 on....

[caaardiff]

I thought it wnet via 'Frankfurt' () Hahn?
That was the Air Malta SSH-BRS/CWL
Seen a few suits wondering around lately. Probably just checking on progress.
Be nice to have a working airbridge sometime soon!
I wonder if the condemned airbridge 7 will be back in time for summer (if they dont scrap the thing!)
It seems CWL wont be handling more flights this year... just more pax due to higher capacity a/c being plonked in!
Anyone think 2 1/4 or 2 1/2m pax is a bit ambitious this year?

[mathers_wales_uk]

caaardiff

I know that the KLM bosses were down on Fiday, wonder what they had to say about all the alterations, and whether or not they threatening to pull out alltogether in order to get a better deal at the airport.

:ok:

[cwl747]

mathers_wales_uk

I dont see the reasoning in them pullin out, when i came back from AMS the stewardess said "cant wait until the get the 737's on here" and thats no word of lie. Everytime ive flown to AMS to do studies there flights seem damn full regardless of aircraft type f70/f100.:ok:

[mathers_wales_uk]

well only once i have seen a KLM 737 at CWL, that was due to the Madona Crew having all htier luggage left at AMS when they were at Cardiff.

I would love to see it as a permanent a/c into the airport, much easier to plan the loads, and much easier for baggage to load and offload. I know they are having a lot of problems with the FOKKER's going tech. And the loads in and out of CWL are very high.

The problem is what will they do to the FOKKER's and is there any rough date of when this will happen?

:ok:

[cwl747]

Just a random thought, could the kl big chease's be down to evaluate the effectiveness of using a 737 into cardiff, possibly cutting the frequency to 3 daily, 737 on the peak morning and late evening runs and the f100 on the midday, as i said just a thought what do you think?:rolleyes:

[mathers_wales_uk]

It is a nice thought but to be honest I doubt that it would happen, I think it's more likely to see how the new walkway is looking and whether they prefer their new designated (11) to their old stands of either (9 / 3).

I think it is to do with the KLM core team that is at CWL, i think that they would have to extend the KLM check-IN if they were to operate a 737.

It's a nice thought and we cld all dream.

:ok:

[cwl747]

Thats understandable, any way how are the loads doing on the WW AMS route? Dont seem to have heard much about them recently.

[mathers_wales_uk]

At the moment the loads are around the 80 on the WW Ams, but obviously thats down to it being january. BMI Baby don't do too bad on the amsterdam route as a lot of leisure passengers use it. BMI Baby are being pretty quiet at the moment, shame quite a few of their flights are NON OP till the en of the month and into feb. Suprised they haven't put on extra flight to EDI for the Scotland V Wales route, mind BMI Mainline got 3 a day between Thursday and Sunday.

KLM been having problems with their FOKKER's today a lot of aircraft going tech. The last KLM into BRS was diverted due to the runway closure and arrived at CWL 00:45, it then went straight back out to AMS. KLM's BRS passengers won't be happy tomorrow with the first flight being cancelled. I hope your right about the 737 they would be much more reliable than what they got at the moment.

:ok:

[Smile!!!]

For anyone who is intrested there will be an airport consultative meeting.A meeting of the Airport Consultative Committee will be held at Cardiff International Airport on Tuesday, 30th January at 1800 hours.

To get some tickets call 01446 712699 or by e-mail to
[email protected]

The public are accepted to ask general questions on the airport development etc.

[a1234]

Seeing as my post last night has been wiped I will post it again:

Now that NCL has secured a daily DXB route, doesn't this throw the argument that CWL's catchment area is too poor and too small, to support routes such as these, out of the window? Statistics show that the North East is the poorest region of the UK and has a smaller population than Wales, but the fact that it now has a daily DXB service, adding to Milan, Rome, Paris and Brussels along with many other routes that CWL doesn't have, what is the excuse now for CWL's poor growth? Airlines such as Emirates, Ryanair, Easyjet and Flybe all serve NCL, why is CWL so stagnant and can't secure bread and butter routes such as Paris? Is the management the problem?

[SWBKCB]

You can probably get from Cardiff to Heathrow (or Birmingham) as quickly as you can drive from Newcastle to Edinburgh airport.

However, I think the real reason is that Newcastle doesn't have the competition of a larger rival just down the road - MME doesn't have the range of services that BRS does.

[TwinAisle]

Someone, might have been Flower, once wisely observed that the EK/Cardiff thing has to do the rounds every few months on PPRUNE.....

Just think for a second about the EK route network. What they are trying to do is cover as much of the UK population as they can. Which means that they serve London (a lot), the Midlands and Wales (via BHX and MAN), Scotland (from GLA). The big hole was the North/North East, that they have now filled with the NCL service.

Why would they do Cardiff when they have great service from BHX? They may want to serve everywhere eventually, but in the meantime they will have higher priorities than Cardiff - like great chunks of Africa, Asia and North and South America.

On a different note:

At the moment the loads are around the 80 on the WW Ams

So? What's the yield? Load is pretty meanin.... oh, I can't be arsed to type it again....

[mathers_wales_uk]

unfortunatly TWINAISLE i am not aware of the Yield on Bmi Baby flight to/from Amsterdam, i was just responding to CWL747's query of the loads.

If anyone does know the yield feel free to contribute.

I do know that a couple of BMI Baby's International flights are NON-OP at the moment though, but they vary each day.

With the Glasgow falling to once daily soon, does anyone know which route they will increase the frequency to? Or will they just drop the route?

:ok:

[teifiboy]

the real danger for CWL is that aircraft might be transferred to another base such as BHX where the yields might be more promising

[TwinAisle]

Spot on, Teifiboy - that is how the industry works.

No-one outside baby will have sensible baby yield data. That's the point. The number of people on any given flight means just about nothing, and tells the observer zilch about the route's performance....

[cym]

Dont baby already have too much on sale for s07 to allow them to reduce the CWl fleet?

There has also been comment on this thread from sources who 'appear to be in the know' re Baby's ex CWL yields which seems to support them being very good. In view of this not getting the addition 73 would be a disappointment rather than any real chance of loosing one of the existing CWL fleet

[TwinAisle]

Yep, by all accounts baby are doing well out of Cardiff. But the question is, would the aircraft at Cardiff be better off somewhere else?
If you are making, say, £1k per rotation on CWL-XXX, great. But if you can use the same aircraft to do for the sake of argument, BHX-YYY, guess where it is going if you make £1.5k per rotation....

As for whether baby have too much on sale to chop - compare factum MME...

[CheekyVisual]

From following the situation re CWL and Baby very closely (for personal reasons !) I think it is extremely unlikely Baby will strip CWL of anymore aircraft. They want to expand the base. The fact they haven't is nothing to do with any percieved problem with CWL itself or to a lesser extent the management of it. It is due to the fact that there are just bigger things going on in the industry that make small companies, like Baby, have to think long and hard before committing valuable and finite resources. Every penny counts.

The Yields at CWL, I have it on good authority, are higher than BHX, BUT, BHX is where the battle lines are being drawn. Baby admit they do not compete with Easy and Ryanair. They can't. For them the enemy is Fly Be and the main arena is BHX. That's why a/c 21 is almost certainly going there. MME never made any money, they gave it a chance, it never picked up so they shipped out. CWL is not in that position. If more resources become available CWL will get a share. Unfortunately not this year.

Once the dust settles on the BACON / Fly Be fiasco we will all know more.

And while I'm at it on a related point a few comments back. The reason BRS has trumped Cardiff is that when Go were looking for a base BRS had a plan for a new terminal, a runway extension and a massive inprovement in failities. CWL didn't and still doesn't. There's no point whinging and moaning about the unfairness of it all what has actually been done to positively attracted the airlines ! Nothing ! A half hearted rail service, a tent and some crinkly tin walkways just isn't going to attract Emirates ! It's not all about location and catchment area It's about facilities CWL hasn't got and isn't getting any time soon. It is irrelevent whether the CWL area can sustain scheduled services to the world and beyond. It isn't going to get any until it has the minimum facilities companies like EK expect. Airports like BHX, BRS and NCL have moved way ahead. Sorry in this case the chicken has to come first ! No serious investment QED No new services by serious carriers.

CWL is in an unfortunate location. For it to compete with BRS it's facilities and transport links have to be three or four times better. BRS is as bad as CWL to get to, BUT, more people can get to it. If 25 years ago the council's had committed to CWL and built the damn road history may have been very different. With any luck the new infrastructure for St Athan will have a positive impact on CWL's chances, but, without a quality plan for a new 21st century terminal or at least a credible redevelopment of the old one I think it may be too little too late.

Please don't get me wrong I really want CWL to succeed (I want to work there again!) but covering your eyes and ears and shouting all will be well when three new stands are open and how unfair all the airlines are not to come here is just not accepting the real problems.

Blimey that was a long post !

[DanielP]

Thanks for the heads up about the meeting Smile!! Would like to come as a "member of public", but I can't get home in time. I expect someone will have good questions about expansion of potential European routes, such as Nice and Pisa etc. Would also be good to mention a fast Cardiff, Barry, Rhoose CWL railway service, possibly by diverting some of the direct services around the Vale of Glamorgan if someone from Arriva is there.

Also, just so you know I practice what I preach, I am going on holiday to Bergen soon. This time, I am going to show a little loyalty, so my route is CWL-AMS and then on to Bergen via KLM. Not as cheap, but less hassle with a two year old than dragging to Stanstead or Man.

PS...the rail service is 3/4 hearted, not 1/2 hearted....;)

Daniel

[mathers_wales_uk]

that was an excillent post Cheekyvisual.

I can say that i can't find anything wrong with it, I do know that the tent has been brought down and a strucure is being built instead of it, i believe it will be A proper baggage belt and hopefully an extension to the departure loung.

By looking at the CWL masterplan i guess the reason why the new walkways look temperary is that they wish to extend the walkway by the year 2015, in the direction of BAMC on stand 13. (4 Stands each side of the walkway, facing each other, with walkway in middle. This would increase the number of stands by 2. Also the disused runway would be used as a taxiway. But we would loose all the Echo stands that are used for rugby flights.

http://info.cwlfly.com/en/content/4/274/masterplan.html

A lot more will need to be done though to attract decent new airlines into CWL, including the Transport Infrastructure and improved access to the airport. (Hopefully the successful bid at St Athan, will help this one come sooner rather than later).

I have also heard rumours that all of upstairs will become the departure lounge, i believe this will help things and also possibly give more area for retail.

I don't believe that the 4th WW A/C will come this year, but 'if Flybe' expands quickly at CWL then we may see BMI Baby also expand quickly at CWL as they are doing at Birmingham.

:ok:

[a1234]

It wasn't me who was calling for the DXB route but several press releases by CWL themselves have been banging on about this and NYC for years now. What I was trying to say was if they are so keen, why haven't they made progress not only there but in getting atleast a Paris or German or even Italian service. I mean even Norwich and Coventry have a Paris route and I don't think you would need a sparkling terminal or massive renovation to make that route viable. If small airports like that can support it, why can't CWL?

Also, why is there a lack of change in the terminal itself, didn't abertis promise millions to help upgrade the airport's facilities including a new multi-storey car park?