Sa Atc- Acc Jhb - Staffing

[ORANPO]

HI

Just heard that 2 have resigned??? One off to OMDB ACC and the other OMMS ACC??

What is happening!! Is it management, Managers(JHB ACC!!) that make people leave.

Good luck with 2010 SA ATC.

Apparently there are many others that have their CVs out in the land of the dust.

Rgds
Land of HSBC

[VoxPopuli]

Your info is spot on. They lost one earlier in the year to UAE ACC. Then another one went to DXB APP (from FAJS ACC). One was transferred to FADN. Another two have resigned recently, one to OOMS ACC and the other to UAE ACC. There is a possibilty of a couple more in the next six months. Watch this space. I also hear that JS, the new center boss, is shaking things up a bit. And not for the better I'll have you know.

The reason these people are leaving is not singular, but a combination of small things that niggle at night. They all add up and become one big burden. The union that look after the workers on the floor is pretty useless as well. Would rather spend money on trips to IFATCA (and JW Blue Label) than on proper legal assistance. Every year that salary negotiations come around it is the same story. Yap yap yap for days on end, go to arbitration and come out with 6% on basic salary (3% on gross). The problem also is that some halfwit years ago declared ATC in SA to be an essential service. So now all the boys and lovely girls can do is jump up and down and stomp there feet and the result is .......6% on basic. So instead of the union tackling this minor obstacle they go to far away places and yap yap yap for days on end (with JW Blue Label) and the result is ........:mad: all.

Then there is the ex-controllers who proceeded into management. Nothing wrong with that mind you, but as soon as his/her @ss walked into the new corner office a frontal lobotomy was performed and voila, a complete idiot with the management skills of a potplant appeared on the other side. Wooooo, it's magic. CN, GH, HR, HH and lately JS to name but a few. Now you would think that as a person that comes from the floor this new uber-manager will remember the conditions that was prevalent during his/her headset tenure. Don't be silly. I think it is called "The Peter Principle."

Then there is the salary issue. The salary itself is not half bad, but it's not half good either. It's like having an itch that you just can not scratch. If you add another 5-7K onto the net salary you will see a happier lot. Note happier, not happy. In order for this to happen, management must be shown the errors of there ways. In a service industry your coal face workers who earn the income is the only asset. If you don't look after them, they are not going to look after you. Instead they will have to look after themselves in places like UAE and Muscat and Bahrain and Delphi.

I know there is nothing in this post that you can put your finger on ORANPO, but it's not as cut and dry as that. It isn't a bad place. The work is satisfying to no end, the controllers are an awesome bunch, the "new" system is magic and the hours are acceptable but the place has lost it's sparkle. Like a marriage that ends due to "irreconcilable differences." The partners will always say "where did we go wrong". That is what most controllers feel, "where did it go wrong".

It doesn't come down to money, or management, or working conditions per se. It is the combination of the incompleteness off all this that wears on you after a while. That itch that you can't reach.

Quo vadis ATNS? I think themselves they do not know.

:{ :{ :{

Bullet Tooth Tony:"Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity".

[makeapullup]

Resignations first of many! Same story as before. Goes in cycles. Currently moral really low. With no-one wanting to be the last to turn off the lights.

This is nothing new. Do a search for FAJS ATC and you'll find all the reasons for leaving still the same.

Cheers

[Africa Headset]

Same old story resignations and money :ugh: , the poor JHB Controllers :( , my question is what are we doing about it except complain?
Mr “Voice of the People” where are you, blaming Management, Solidarity and GATCSA! := The last shop steward election was pathetic to say the least (No interest from Members to vote or participate at all) and it was concluded not even 2 weeks ago.
Yes there are a lot of things that needs attention, complaining about it will not help at all, get involved with the so called s :mad: t union and try and make a deference. O sorry we don’t do that we just complain and blame! Thank You Solidarity :D for the 8% increase we got this year considering the CPIX was below 5% at that stage I think they did an admirable job seeing that there are so many Controllers willing to be shop stewards. :ok:
Yes, I agree controllers should be paid more and it is a pity that our controllers are leaving to the Middle East for more money :{ . I have heard that their conditions (Management) are not that nice either, the cheque to eat up the s :mad: t is just bigger.
Can controllers stand together and make a deference? No I don’t think so. := Good luck to the new shop stewards and the GATCSA EB (enjoy the JW Blue) ;) , at least you guy’s and girls are trying to better the situation for us and some of us are grateful. :O

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

Just a small correction for the first poster, the ACC isn't in Dubai, it's in Abu Dhabi, about 150 km to the Sth of Dubai.

To Vox Populi, not being an expert on the Sth African situation at all, but in all of your reasons why people are leaving nowhere did you mention the security situation in Joburg. Don't you think people may be leaving because they are sick of living in fear all the time. As I said not an expert by any means, but I would have thought it would be some sort of motivation for leaving.

[ORANPO]

hi all.

The Js ACC guys and gals are world respected, doesnt management( JHB -JS) realise that.

Heard from a bud that he has this master plan to re-sectorise the sectors, apparently this is an effort to make these ACC people less marketable due to them only working "2 sectors".

1stly, YOU NEED MORE STAFF!!!!!!!!!! Allready the XMAS season approaches and there are peolpe on leave etc, how is it gonna work.

JHB ACC are world best, keeping them in SA is gonna be hard, especially of that certin promise of RET. PLan fell through!
As it stand there are 11 Cvs floating around in the land of sand. Now that OOMS has openned up, you are spoilt for choice.

Chommmma!

[VoxPopuli]

ANSA, you are spot on as well. I did not mention the the crime and other non-work related things as this is something that affects everybody, not just ATC's. But make no mistake, this is a factor that propably overshadows all others. When you compare personal safety to an idiot boss, the boss becomes a soft background humm.

African Headset, for too long I have tried to help where I can. I had a lot of good ideas, I didn't just complain, I offered solutions. So tell me, how far has the medical aid after retirement issue progressed? How far has the essential services problem progressed? Does ACC have two on a N/S like APP and East/Central? Does working 4 hours plus without a break on a N/S sound legal to you according to CARS? But, there is absolutely f...all you or GATCSA can do about it. Management will NEVER allow ATC to come off the essential services list unless forced by a court of law. I'm not a person who condones toi-toing, but hell, if it works for the rest lets give it a try. O wait, you can't. So shut up and do as you are told. Grievance you say - I have that T-shirt as well. Work to rule - caution caution.

An even more contentious issue is the station allowance (JS ACC vs East/Central) conundrum. It was implemented by GATCSA so that they can have leverage in future negotiations. What a load of s..t that was. They lined there own pockets 'cause 90% of the GATCSA board did not work JS ACC and neither could they validate there. So apart from an 8% increase on basic salary i.e. 5% in reality, precisely what have they done to better daily and long term conditions. Think beyond this year and the next. How much do you spend out of your own pocket to supplement your pension shortfall? How much are you going to spend on medical aid when you retire? Dude, you can't count that high.

So no wonder they are resigning in droves. The controllers get screwed by ATNS and when they turn to GATCSA for help they get the cold shoulder because the union has no leverage. Only a proper protected strike will fix things for a while. The French are shining examples of this. But alas, while Rome burns......

[niknak]

Slightly off the post, but an old mate of mine who used to work at EGPK, Simon Marsden moved b ack to his native land in SA some 5 years ago or so.

I've no idea where he ended up, any news?

[IShotTheSherif]

Hi Niknak,

Regarding your question - not quite! I don't think many of those that went to SA for assessments actually took the offer.

Check your PM's.

[makeapullup]

I vote 2 things.
1. Voxie gets off his stallion and stops the ranting.
2. That he fixes his pc clock. don't know how but his posts jump up on the timeline, sometimes ahead of posts already posted.

PS. You haven't even taken a dip at Solidarity yet!!

Cheers

[Dct no speed]

Arfrica Headset,
Please please please, get the facts before you make a As:mad: ole of your self. You sound like a the typical.... "can not go any where because I don't have "THE RATING.' !
.....oh it is not so good in the Land of Sand ? more pay same sh:mad: hey ? Well not all the stations are the same. Your New recruitment drive to the Middle East to get Staff back what a load of Cr:mad: . The Stander gang could just as well have saved the money as the guys they interviewed are all from the places with the problems.The only guys that are leaving here are the ones working in the Sh:mad: le postings.
Next time ask them why no controllers from Dubai where interviewed.They go back and tell you all that they have done such a wonderfull job in Getting People back! Well I think these guys will in any case have gone back even without there visit!
The pay is not the only thing that is better out here. Staffing, Time off, (BY A Long Shot), better pre planning.Training , Better Procedures. And definately better managers than the Clowns now running the show in SA.
Driving is bad yes! but not a lot worse than William Nicol Taxi drivers at 5 o'clock in the afternoon. We don't have barb wire any where, no one has been hijacked here since .........ever. Sure it is not my Home Country but, neither is the place we call SA nowadays either. SAD BUT TRUE!
I was also one who use to say "me leave SA.. never".However let me tell you that once you stand outside and look in you'll be shocked to see how bad things really are on your Side of the world.
My advise ....... If you can get out before the ship sinks do it. Remember in the end it will only be the weak and the rats left onboard as the SAS ATNS slowly goes down!

[VoxPopuli]

Nothing wrong with my clock. All my posts were in time order. My first and second reply had to be approved by the moderator which can take two or three days. When they eventualy appear it is in the timeslot that they were originaly posted, not when the moderator approved them.

Can't dip at Solidarity as they only take orders from the union and can not operate outside their mandate. Would be nice though to let Flip Buys and co. loose on ATNS, sans the chokechain.

[BlueSkye]

I won't call the managers better, I would call them.... I would call them.....I would call them....please wait while I take a moment...ah I would call them, well, different. You know, same same but different.
:E

[makeapullup]

Hey Voxie

I think you have got your facts wrong. GATCSA is the professional body, involved in professional issues (target rate of pay, duty hours) Solidarity is the UNION with their own (elected) shop stewards (did you vote). The UNION gets its mandate from the members (If you work for ATNS - which I doubt - thats you)

The UNION negotiates salaries (GATCSA not even invited to these), fight legal battles (labour related issues - fighting, incidents, absenteeism etc).

Never heard of Flip Buys but if he/you have ideas don't keep them to yourselves!

Cheers

[VoxPopuli]

See "SABC vs Coop & Others. SCA case # 2004/570" Read at http://www.law.wits.ac.za Don't let ATNS bully you guys and girls into something. SAA tried the same thing with their pilots and got a real good hiding from ALPA. := About time that ATNS received a proper hiding from the union, just a pity that you are carrying to small a stick.

[makeapullup]

The "leaving" rot now spreads to FACT. Good for them!!

Vox, I looked at the SABC case. Not my area but aren't those that are affected at ATNS (ex Civil service ATC"S) waiting for a verdict in their case?

This again would potentially be a Solidarity case.

Will wait and see.

PS if the they lose the case then possible help from Solidarity and GATCSA on the cards.

Cheers

[VoxPopuli]

Just to make things interesting, I see on the thread above this one that ASA is looking for a couple of people. Eurocat experience preferred. AND they will assist with visas. My, isn't that just right up the Oliver Tambo ACC/APP sleeves.

[126,7]

Vox,did you see this post? Is that a negative or a positive comment?

South Africa (can you imagine how many applications we will get from there!!!)

[VoxPopuli]

126,7. Sorry, but I don't grasp your post. If you're asking whether my post is positive or negative, it is neither. It is an observation. Lots of controllers looking elsewhere and not all of them happy to go to UAE or Europe for example. Australia has always been a closed book for SA ATCs but that appears to be changing now. And their requirements are right up the ATNS alley. So I suppose it can be positive for the people and negative for ATNS.

ATNS is heamoraging staff to the UAE at an alarming rate and now ASA gets in the fray. How much longer will Wrenelle and Mike M allow this to continue? When one staff member leaves a company it can be seen as personal, but when they leave in droves you have to look inwards. That headline in Rapport about Zimbabwe bleading to death is rather apt for this situation. As I said earlier, while Rome burns...

[VoxPopuli]

126,7. I now understand your post. Sorry, didn't read the ASA thread before replying here. That post was propably made by your standard Australian homophobe who consider South Africans as the scum of the earth. Why don't you ask him/her on that thread if his/her comment is positive or negative. I, for one, would like to see the reply.

[Dct no speed]

Aaaah now the Sh:mad: dwandg is going to hit the fan. Those who did not want to come and play with us in the sand might be riding a Kangaroo soon.

With the Nederlanderssss also taking Staff, you have more and more options for our Boyz and girls. Might I also add that New Zealand is also looking for AREA controllers and you might want to tell that to the Stander Gang!:ugh:

Please let me know where in the world you will settle so I can plan my next holiday......hmmm Australia or New Zealand or Amsterdam or Dubai or Oman no need going to SA you will all have left come next year! :8

Okay Bye!

[makeapullup]

:D := :D :=

Rumour has it 2 more from ACC off to the land of the sand... starting Feb!!

What now, this ship sinking?

Cheers

[BlueSkye]

Surely at this rate you can not staff the 4 sectors anymore during the day. What about the 8 days off every month? I feel so sorry for the Poolguy. His "pool" has sprung a leak and he has only ten fingers with which to plug the holes. And who will suffer the most? The ATCs with summer in full swing. The airspace may be huge and you can run, but you can not hide from Chris Burger. :{

[Dct no speed]

This is your Captain Speaking: "Please board the remaining life rafts now leaving for OMAN, UAE, NEW ZEALAND, AUSTRALIA and EUROPE.......glug glug
We are sinking!!!!
And there is nothing to be sin(g)king about!
To all at Jo-ies staying behind, the light switch is in the Oceanic Cell behind the door!:confused:

[BlueSkye]

....and on your way out, can you grab that nice clock at the tower lift. The last one got zikked before I could lay may grubby paws on it. And give YH a VERY VERY big hug and kiss. Damn fine that one....:ok:

[Jaapie3]

Got that clock in the garage,still ticking away!!This was before the time of fingerprint ID, cameras and the blue team taking over.Good luck to the JHB boys and girls,the present clown in charge and her sidekick aren't going to change anything!!

[makeapullup]

Got that clock in the garage,still ticking away
Something is still ticking, I think its a time bomb!!!:{ :{ :{
Cheers

[desertrose]

So I hear a few more JHB ATC's will be resigning soon, (that is if they haven't resigned yet) to move to the land of sand. I believe another 2 have received offers......

I believe Air Services Australia started responding to the thousands of applications, and some controllers have been asked to forward proof of licence/rating etc. So ...... phase 1, the paper sifting is complete. It would be really interesting to know how many controllers got feedback from ASA.

My heart goes out to the boys and girls of JHB, who are stuck in SA for various reasons (personal, family, age, etc.)

I feel sorry for the Pool managers who will be expected to perform miracles with hardly any competent staff left. GOOD LUCK!!!!

[Dct no speed]

Scene 1 :(circus music...ta,ta,ta.ta...)
Ringmaster walks in.
(Great applause from the Affirmative Crowd!!!!!(Load clapping))

Ringmaster(Actually the head clown) :

"Ladies and gentleman, boys and girls Tonight you will see an Amazing sight!!"

Camera Zoom in, on one lonely ATC, sitting at a very smart Radar screen, but it is not working( due to a lack of Techs to service it as they have also all went in search of greener pastures)

Ringmaster : (drumb roll ....drrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr) "Atc One will now, single handedly try and control all the traffic in SA for the 2010 Soccer world cup.....( drrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr)but that is not all ........He is going to do it while blind folded ,so he will have no Radar. (Drrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr Dissssss)

(laud applause from the Board who has no idea of ATC but only of money making .........the show is going on...... and fewer controllers means more profit!!! So they are on to a winning formula. Plus the government insentive for now having a company that is truely representative of the SA population)

Friends and family of ATC One keep saying no! Don't do it ! It is not going to work, get out.

ATC ONE, who stayed because he believed the Clown, and all his promises, and because he believed things will be better with the new Ringleader. He further trusted the Circus boss's every time they promised more money to support his family, who he hardly sees, because he is so tired after every show!

This time he thinks :I will get the reward for my loyalty ,just this one more show!!!

The show starts......

ATC ONE works the traffic ,he is doing a great job .......
but then the Ringleader gets rid of his assistant .....
the workload increases........
ATC One Looks at the Ringleader and ask for more help!!

Ringleader: "Don't worry Ladies and Gentleman ATC ONE is a trained profesional he will handle this situation !

Suddenly the place starts to shake as the SAS ATNS has struck yet another Reform Political Ice berg, another few controllers have left, he will have to do more show with less pay. The place starts coming appart...the standard of the shows are getting worse (the radios stop working then .......)

Next scene:
ATC ONE is over worked,tired, underpaid. He has tried his best to stay positive, to remain loyal but, still he gets the blame for the standard of the shows, his attitude is wrong,his failure to support reform, he gets told to" leave if he does not't like it "

Final Scene:

ATC ONE joins a travelling Circus in the Land Of SANDEUROPEANDDOWNUNDERMIDDLEEARTH where he still performs the same shows, but with working radars,less crime,more time of to be with his family. Better salary and quality of life.
The Ringmaster is left with a small group of Contracted ATC's that have already spoken with ATC ONE about the place he works for now and about when they can start there with him! They plea with ATC ONE. "Please help we can no longer take it here."

And lots of time off to type long stories like this!

[makeapullup]

Yikes, after that DNS you forgot to mention the amount of time off you must have...

Enjoy the klippies.

Cheers

[126,7]

Agree he has way too much time off. Amusing scenario though :}

So, how many from the big JS got an invite to submit papers to ASA? Enough to make ATNS worry?

[BOK2GO]

If I may just get my foot in the door (on my way out) here.

Good Question above. How many Joburg guys/gals have applied?

For the 1st time in probably 10 years Cpt might be facing a possible staffing crisis. We've just said goodbye to our two Irish, one Pom contract worker and have had a resignation from another to go to the Middle East. That's 10% of our staff. Three more atc's have their CV's in the M.E.

But wait, that's not all. If you phone now............

The rumour is that 13 atc's have applied for ASA from down here (and don't we just love rumours)
I can confirm that 5 have recieved further correspondence from ASA and are frantically getting the required paperwork together.

Big request please. We need to fly out of Joburg to get there so could you guys and gals please stick around until we've gone.

Race you there

[desertrose]

Now BOK2GO, this is a very selfish request (But then I quess, each man/woman for themselves);)

From what I hear there are 8 JHB controllers to leave in the next 6 months! This excludes Oz. I have no idea how many JHB controllers received futher correspondence from Oz, but I have to agree it would be very interesting to know how many!

To all of those who have not applied anywhere else, get your camping gear ready. You will be spending lots of time at work!!!! (At least if you are at work there is no risk of getting hi-jacked! You see there is always a bright side to every situation!)

[BOK2GO]

Anyone from Joburg know for sure?

[Voel]

BOK2GO, confirm its Chucky leaving Cape Town for the sand pit? I see at least 3 ATC's from north of the Oranje River will be joining ATNS soon, but places like Kimberley and Polokwane.

[radioexcel]

Hi Voel..

Still no vacancy for me in FASM?? :E

Rand to strong and listening to the SA news it is unbelievable why.

For those of you in SA looking North to the sandpit!!!! Make sure you know what you are letting yourselves into:=

Bok2go...pm me rgds
RE

[ASD]

For those of you in SA looking North to the sandpit!!!! Make sure you know what you are letting yourselves into


Care to elaborate?

[radioexcel]

OK just a few I can think of..
Abu Dhabi!!

Money??

1. For the SA guys/girls, you will basically gain all the tax you pay in SA plus a few bucks more.....Deffinately not to become rich. Specially if you still have commitments in your home country regarding home loan, etc.(most of the time you just barely survive on the salary paid here) For the first 2 years, you basically spend all your money just to make yourself comfortable here..then only you will be able to start saving what is left.
2. You will get company furnished accomodation.....no TV,washing machine, tumble dryer, Microwave,etc etc. For the the first 2-3 months you wil get a company float of broom, plates, glasses, kettle bedding etc which you will have to replace with your own. Ask friends here what their accomodation is like..married people..not to bad (3 bedroom flat..single/married..2 bedroom flat) very shortly, some place new for the single people...where? no one knows. OR take the money..75.000AED pa and try and look for your own accomodation. Remember..you get half from the company but you have to pay for 12 months in advance when renting a place...ouch:{
3. If you so choose to rent your own place, you might only get a place way off the island as on the island, it is extremely expensive..look on the map to see what I am talking about.
4. Here you are only an expat number...working for Serco. You are not local..so do not expect any promotion to any positions coming up as it is reserved for locals.
5. If you are married, you wil get all hell from mother-love after a few months as she gets extremely agitated sitting at home in a flat 10-18 storeys above ground all day long. So you will have to take her out/entertain en loose some of your hard-earned income. If you can get her to start working, it's a bonus and it will definately help to you.
6. You want to go home twice a year as you get 56 days of leave??? Yip no problem...except a return airline ticket is approx 8000AED/R16000. Serco only gives you 2 tickets per anum for leave purposes.
7. Family is far far away...telephone bill is very high if you do no control it very well.
8. Traffic wise...Dubai is total chaos....hours on the road due traffic. Abu Dhabi still acceptable but it is like "RUSSIAN ROULETTE", you have to be extremely cautions to stay out of accidents as the locals and the Asian expats are trying their best to take you out. Highwah speed limit 160Kph to Dubai and Al Ain..(a friend once said to me, "death is coming from behind, not from the front"). Some of them travel at speeds in access of 200Kph.:eek:
9. The only 10+ positive thing here is the safety.... walk in town any time of day and night and no one will even blink an eye at you...no break-ins (Cars parked in the street 24hrs)..no break in's etc.
10. Winter time is quite pleasant. Almost the same as somer in Cape Town..without the wind. Summer here is ..is..is... basically jyst short of hell. Temp starts rising in May and only starts reducing in November. Mid-summer the temp is 32C 3am end turns round 46C to 49C in mid-day. Some days 52C. In the beginning of summer the dewpoint is about 60%, but in July to November, it goes up to 96%. (Turn oven to 280C..place bucket of water in oven...after 20 minutes, take bucket out and place head in oven...that is wat it feels like!!;)


You want me to continue??

These are only a few I can think of at the moment...hope you satisfied.

Rgds

RE

[BOK2GO]

I chatted to a mate from Joburg last night. He said that there were two resignations from the acc pool yesterday. Anyone know more? They're down to 16 on a shift that requires 24 people to make it work.

[Dct no speed]

Heard the Stander-gang had an Emergency meeting about the "Sudden" Staff problems at ATNS.

What is the latest? :confused:

Ps: Don't fall for the same old bull they are going to try and bribe you to stay till 2010 and then..........take one kick up the back side.:{

[BOK2GO]

There's another emergency meeting on the 20th. So what was this one about? To decide on a date for another emergency meeting?
Mmmm, imagine us taking that amount of time with a decision.

No doubt on the 20th they'll have made a decision . . . . . . . . . . . . on the date for another emergency meeting. Same old tune, different band members.

It take a lot of years in ATNS to get this cynical.

[BOK2GO]

The official quote from the chairman of the board is that ATC's are greedy. This is from someone who sits on 4 board meetings a year and earns 400k+ for it.
Somewhere there has to be accountability for what is going on staff wise surely. Is the chairman the one who will take the responsibilty when he has to report to the minister of transport and explain why his 7 remaining greedy ATC's can't handle 54 slots an hour into Joburg?
Mr chairman are you aware that come September your tenure will be marred by catastrophic failure and this country will step back 40 years as the economic powerhouse of Africa? We do have some small part to play in the infrastructure. This job is actually well respected and well paid in most parts of the world. Use it, don't use it.

Ever since I've given up hope I feel much better about things.

[Scott Voigt]

Greedy huh...

Sounds like our Administrator...

regards

Scott

[makeapullup]

The official quote from the chairman of the board is that ATC's are greedy
Where did you hear this?
If so, i'm even happier about our decision!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Cheers

[BOK2GO]

It was said at the Academy on Friday...???

[makeapullup]

If thats the mindset he takes to tommorrow's meeting then what little hope was there is now doomed.

[Dct no speed]

Other ATC units are waiting to employ more of you.......surley you guys at ATNS, should by now have learnend, that every time it is smoke and mirror bull:mad: .

I say give them the message ..........let there be a NO SHOW at the meeting!(Vote with your feet)

But then again the guys and girls at Jo'burg seem to never be able to stand together......well hell believe them this time surley they wil not lie again!!!???:ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

[makeapullup]

This is why people stay... not because of the lies.
http://www.avcom.co.za/phpBB2/files/img_1664_772.jpg

PS Photo by Ralf Schulz
http://www.myaviation.net/search/search.php?view=&photographer=Ralf%20.T%20.Schulz

[Dct no speed]

Ok have to admit SA can be a great place but so can Zim. :rolleyes:

Have had a lot of rain in the Sand Pit this year, but never see a nice one like that here. Rainbow still in Black and White here........Is that a pot of Gold at the end or the Smartie Box ???:cool:

I wish all the Boyz and Girls at Jo'burg a Merry Christmas and Happy 2007. Drive Safe and keep up the good work.:ok:

DNS

[mushroom1]

Please correct me if I am wrong but is this not the same Chairman of the same ATNS board that just a few months ago refused to authorise a retention package to those who were willing (and some not so!) to stick around and keep the sinking boat afloat, because they could not be expected to pay money to keep "white employees" in the company??? This after months, if not years of empty promises from the CEO.
Those that can get those CV's out there...it is not going to get any better in the near(or far) future.:(
There are alot more opportunities out there than you realise once you make that decision to move on.
Good luck old friends!!

[EXATC]

...it is not going to get any better in the near(or far) future

I agree. 11 years on since I abandoned the ATNS ship and nothing has changed... or should I say nothing except the ATC's. You would think that by now someone in ATNS would see the full picture.

Being now involved in a business I've learnt that the only thing that counts at the end of the day to management is the bottom line. If staff problems don't impact on the profitablity... frankly they couldn't give a :mad:

Good luck to those left behind and Merry Christmas (hopefully not behind the mic).

[BOK2GO]

I got some clarification on the "ATC's are greedy" quote.
It was said by Mr Mobasa (chairman) during his speach at the Academy on Friday.
It's slipped my mind, who again earns the money for this company????

We had a classic entry in our occurance book yesterday. It read: Flow control to FAJS due to insufficient greedy staff.

[DTLP]

Just reading this thread out of interest as I was considering working in SA a few years back but turned the offer down as the contract didn't stack up. Sounds like it still doesn't. There are numerous jobs elsewhere in the world. If you're considering the middle east but think you haven't got the experience I sugest you still put your name in the hat. Demand at present has more or less put an end to the 5 year operational requirement in the job role you are applying for. Good luck, don't hang around with false hopes.

Merry Christmas to all of you, hope the New Year brings some positives.

Regards:)

[futr-kofeshop-dweler]

People stay in SA for rainbows? Nice, what are Rainbows classified under on your pay stubs? Hehehehe....

[TMAguide]

Is this the racist chairman that has made all his "white" employees feel like sh1te at "Reward and Recognition" parties??? This is an unreformed "chip on my shoulder" ATNS Mugabe. Does this person not realise - it is not GREED - pay what the people are worth! What are they worth elsewhere in the world, match or better it! Greed - what an idoit! I have no respect for this person - if its the same one.
ATNS has a problem - and I don't think its management - I honestly think its becoming more than the money too......saftey is becoming a concern. These are things that are numbed by money - sad, but true. Go to war - you get danger bucks....
Lets face it, money is something we all want more of, and if you are accepting a lesser salary than people elsewhere in the world, its because you are happy where you are....if you begin to become unhappy - elsewhere looks good - until money is thrown at you....then you stick it out....
ATNS itself is not a bad company - all companies have their **** - but I think that they are not that bad.

....my opinion

[Dct no speed]

Dear Friends,

You deserve Better!!!!!!!

You have all been part of the great Money making scheme, called ATNS for many a years now! The sad thing is that you have been making the money and other people get to spend it!!!!

You remained loyal, you believed promises, you sat through soooooo many meetings and had to fight for every sent at every salary negotiation.

For what??????????:{ :{ :{

To be told that you are greedy?

ATNS anounce 32Mil profit and you get what 6 %:=

Is the Minister of Transport not the major share holder? Therefore Government supported ( Like SAA) Ask SAA who bail them out every time they need pilots or make a little bit of a loss in a year?

We hear the names, and see the CV's pilling up all over the world, yet some are still not moving, not awake, seeing the light at the end of the tunnel for what it is !!!! A BIG TRAIN....... GRAVY AND ALL !

If you need a push in the right direction read this :

Crime stats for 2006 (April 2005 to June 2006) These are based on Insurance claims and reported crimes only!

Car Hijackings - Increase from 12 343 to 15 864
Cash in transit Heist Increase by 74.1 % ( to more than one a Day)
Murders 18 545
Attempted Murders 20 553:= := := :=

If this is enough to make just one of you see the light, I will be pleased.

By the way During the SA Bush war From 1966 till 1989
1804 people died !

Remain loyal, believe more promises, hope that the above will only happen to someone else!

Should I stay or should I go?
What is it worth to you in the end?

Your choice!!

Nice Rainbow.............Rainbow Nation ?????

Are not all things in Life but black and white?

[desertrose]

Well said you all in the last 7 posts!!!! I agree with you all!!:ok:

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all the "greedy" ATC's!!!

[BOK2GO]

If staff problems don't impact on the profitablity... frankly they couldn't give a :mad:


Indeed, it's a brilliant business solution. Why haven't we seen it before?

[BOK2GO]

We got some feedback from the 2nd emergency meeting yesterday.

The results are:

A nine percent increase from April 2007 has been approved. I take it this on Basic salary only???

Money put aside for a "lock in retension package" has been freed up by the Board to be used for that reason. No details have been given on that but Wrenelle has promised clarification on that early next year.

Personally I don't agree with retension packages. It's almost an admission of failure that the company is not the employer of choice and that they need to tie you in with a contract, but hey, I'm sure many others will be glad. If you weren't planning on leaving it's an absolute bonus....:ok:

Is it too little too late? I suppose we'll see by September next year (when the current retension package pays out) Had this been announced three months ago the staffing problem in Joburg might be a little less critical.

I do feel that Wrenelle is doing her utmost to resolve this issue but that she is coming up against a brickwall at times. Hats off to her and those working so hard to try keep this ship afloat.

[Dct no speed]

Personally I don't agree with retension packages. It's almost an admission of failure that the company is not the employer of choice and that they need to tie you in with a contract, but hey, I'm sure many others will be glad. If you weren't planning on leaving it's an absolute bonus....


Not Almost a admission ......BUT a 100% Admission plus a Oh here comes s:mad: reaction!!!!

Plese sign on the dotted line for another 5 years of hard labour and below average wages.......:{

[126,7]

Seems ATNS is trying all the tricks to force guys to stay. What with those ridiculous training bonds, the promise of a major gratuity, aka retention bonus, and now a solid 9% as of April next year! Wow, whatever happened to backdating, or is that not part of the future? :suspect:

[GATCSA]

Dct No Speed and 126.7

DNS
The 9% increase you referring to is on your cost to company package which is everything except the unit allowance and medical aid. This is exactly the same principle that has been applied over the past four years. Saying that it applies only to your basic salary is extremely misleading. On top of that ATNS is also increasing the unit allowance by 9% this year. This has not happened for a couple of years now. When one considers this increase then it appears to me that the only item that is not contributing to the increases for next year is the medical aid.

126.7
The increases are effective 1 April of each year until the end of March the next year. What back pay are you talking about???

Bok2Go
Superb entry in the occurence log. Well done boys.


Merry Xmas and happy new year to all where ever you may be.

[126,7]

The increases are effective 1 April of each year until the end of March the next year. What back pay are you talking about???

What does that mean? Every year until when? For ever? Is that the yearly increment date?
Every salary increase I've ever gotten was back dated by 6 months, a year or a given amount of time. That way you the boys and girls at the front benefit from the time lost while negotiations were taking place. Also, your Christmas presents don't get delivered by the easter bunny.

PS. Didn't SAA get an increase which was back dated by three years? Now thats what I'm talking about!

[makeapullup]

Every salary increase I've ever gotten was back dated by 6 months

Hard to believe, but this 9% is next years increase! Hence no back pay. Amazing isn't it.

GATCSA - welcome. Did you (assuming you are GATCSA/Solidarity or just using the name) get the 9% increase by a mandate from the members? Or after the offer was made, refer it back to the members?

Cheers

[GATCSA]

126.7
As per the collective and procedural agreement between ATNS and the union all negotiated remuneration increases are effective from 1 April of said year to 31 March of the next year i.e. the 9% we are talking about now is your general salary increase from 01 April 2007 until 31 March 2008. Historically during the past 12 years these negotiations have never been completed on time (01 April) for the increases to be implemented. There has always been an arbitration or delay of some sort. This is the reason your increases were always back dated to 01 April and you received back pay for some length of time. This is obviously dependent on when the negotiations were completed. Now for the first time ever, the union and the company have managed to complete the negotiations before the calender year has even started. This is good news in that you now know what will happen come April.
At this point I would like to remind you not to confuse this general increase with your experience/notch move that will occur on the anniversary of your course date.
By way of example I shall attempt to explain this to you. If you are a PATC (radar controller) working in Durban with two years experience and the anniversary of your course is August then you will find yourself in the following situation.
Your current cost to company salary = R280713.00 per annum
9% increase in April 2007, new CTC salary = R305977.00 per annum
August 2007 your experience move to the 3rd year notch so your ctc salary moves to R326028.00
This process continues until your reach the top of the respective salary band 10 years later (13 notches in the salary band).
Make a pull up
Solidarity sought a mandate from all its members in September 2006. Documentation on the notice boards countrywide. The union official received 2 (yes only two) responses. One from a JS member and one collective response from Bloemfontein. This particular one was unsigned and did not stipulate how many members were supporting it. This information was then compared to the economic forecasts made by the economists at Solidarity and the demand presented to management.
At the negotiations the offer from management was better than the demand put on the table by the union therefore the Solidarity official had no problem accepting the offer.
Should you wish to see the documents they are available in the GATCSA office. All you need to do is come to the office and ask to see them.
I hope this all helps

[BlueSkye]

So what you are saying GATCSA is that this is just the normal negotiated yearly increase and not the carrot to plug the hole in the sinking ship. Everybody and his mother knows that every April their is a notch move and a small increase. Does ATNS management think that because they finish the negotiations in Dec 2006 instead of Aug 2007 that this will make the people stay? Please tell me that there is more. The roster is barely functioning and the people leaving for other places are still on it. What happens when they are gone? What is M:ATS gonna do? Solve everything with " Hey, Chomma..... "?

[GATCSA]

Blue

Yes you are right. This is just the normal yearly increases. It has nothing to do with any retention or whatever you would like to call it. That is a totally different subject. As for the rest of your post, I will not speculate.

Until later

[BOK2GO]

Since we have your ear there is a burning question I'd like to ask you.
The Instructors down in CPT have been very unhappy with the R50 an hour OJTI allowance. We've minuted it at every meeting and asked our Union representative to take it further but have recieved no joy yet.
Did this come up at the negotiations? Are you guys aware of our unhappiness over this? Would that have been the correct forum for this issue? If not, what would be?

I'm sure the Joburg guys, although getting more than R50/h, are feeling the same about the issue.

[GATCSA]

Bok2go

Your local rep did present a good paper recently about the OJTI. Management were quite surprised at what they saw and suggested that the unit allowance matrix be revisited with the idea of correcting the inherent faults and applying the matrix no matter what the result. The union has cautioned the company about the potential outcome this may cause. You may recall that the matrix has several serious flaws in it which need to be corrected first to make it fair to all concerned.

I am also well aware of the unhappy situation all the instructors are in at the moment. This topic is still on the union agenda and being looked at. We did not discuss it at the negotiations this year but it is an item that is currently being worked on and should there be some developments we'll inform your local rep as soon as possible.

A little bird has whispered in my ear just a day or two ago that there may be changes to the OJTI allowance. I have not been able to confirm this yet so consider this as a RUMOUR only until the union finds out more.

Cheers for now

[BOK2GO]

Thanks for the prompt reply.

When are the negotiations this year? It would be nice for me to give the instructors some feedback because we here are almost at the point of mass resignation from the OJTI pool.

[SAA201]

Hi GATCSA

Thanks for the informative replies thus far.

As you mentioned Notch increases, could you possibly shed some light on the following hypothetical situation:

Lets assume a SATC, currently employed by ATNS with 5 years experience at an outstation doing a combined TWR and Procedural Approach, goes on to complete the required course to become a PATC (either App Radar or Area) at one of the main stations. Will that individual's salary continue to progress at the same rate as if that person had stayed a SATC, ie onwards to years 6,7,8 etc(SATC); or will the individual's salary revert to that of an entry level PATC? Since one's salary cannot be decreased will it be "frozen" at its current level (5yrs SATC) until such time as the PATC notches catch up - which could take up to 3 or 4 years?

Many thanks, keep up the good work!

[GATCSA]

Bok2go

The negotiations for 2007/2008 have already been completed. The OJTI issue will be raised at our next quarterly meeting again. This should be sometime in late February, early March. We have not confirmed any dates yet for these meetings.

201

In the past the following principle has been applied and we would insist that this continues to happen. In the situation you have created you would remain a SATC after your radar course with all the relevant notch moves until such time that you validate your new radar rating and become a PATC. At that point you would be linearly moved into the PATC salary band i.e. if you were still on your 5 year notch as a SATC you would move into the 5 year PATC notch. ATNS recognises your experience as a SATC and sees no reason to "punish" your for advancing your career. By the by, this was a fight that Craig Cox fought for and managed to achieve before his accident.

Hope this helps

Happy new year to all.

[SAA201]

Many thanks for the reply.
For the sake of clarity, is the linear moving up a "band" (ATC/SATC/PATC) into the same "notch" (years experience) on that next highest band a relatively new practice? If so, what date was it effective from?
Reason I ask is how would previous experience affect the scale? For example, using the same scenario as I sketched in my previous post, lets assume that same SATC, prior to validating as a SATC, had 2 years experience as an ATC (ie TWR). Would that in fact mean this person should then be on the 7 (ie 2 ATC + 5 SATC) year notch? And therefore after successfully validating as a PATC be moved directly onto the 7 year (or 8, depending on how long validation takes) notch?
For that matter, how would previous experience as an ATSA complicate the matter?

[anatc2]

:=
A can of worms has just been opened...
First off this thread might have to be renamed "The SA ATC salary debate thread"
Secondly. GATCSA - where is this SATC/PATC band hopping written? As i understand it, you say that if I spend 10 years as a SATC in FARB, then course and validate as a FADN approach controller I will slot in at the 10 YEAR PATC band!!!
However if I work FADN tower for 10 years, then course and validate as a FADN PATC then I only fit in on the 1year band.
Am I misunderstanding? The unfair labour practice Law will have to be looked at if that is the case.
This applies to JS tower guys as well. (Waiting to fit into a system that is not well. Never mind those guys that waited for SAAF guys to push in!) So in the end it pays to wait at an outstation.
I hope i'm misunderstanding this, otherwise there will be a lot of unhappy people!
An analogy - You are an intern for 4 years, then qualify as a doctor and straight away move onto the 4 year doctor scale!
If this is the case, why bother having different names for the scales.
:=

[BOK2GO]

I understand from your reply then that the OJTI cause was put forward at the last quarterly meeting....?
I take it then we can expect some response on this topic from the company at the next one in Feb/Mar...?
We certainly hope thats the case or the training might slow dramatically down here.

PS. We had a resignation from the approach pool today. That makes it 5 ATC's in this month alone.

[Radargod]

Just before anybody thinks nothing happens in PE. I know you all think it's the vacation station - we actually have 35+ an hour quite often due to all the training schools that we have here. We have also lost 4 ATC's in the last two months(3 PATC's and one TWR ATC) - 2 back to Ireland, ! to Oliver Tambo and 1 for a second trip to the Land of the Sand. That is 22% of our controllers!

Cheers

PS: I'm holding my breath for the retention scheme because I think it is going to cause great unhappiness in the stations besides JHB and CT

[Nookie2nite]

...so why are we bringing counts into this Radargod? Nobody is putting you down - don't be so defensive!
Truth is people are not leaving because ATNS is a bad , or pay bad - its more than that. Retention packages are only for those who don't have any ambition to leave anyway. They are the only ones who will push for it and be happy with it. Those wanting to leave, for whatever reasons (maybe wanting to push more than a mere 35+ in a VFR tower, safety, experience, adventure - whatever) will hang on for a while, maybe until the end of the package, probably not though. Either way - I wish we could all get more money, and then some more and more - after all we are greedy :}

N2N

[Voel]

No matter how much you earn, its never enough. Either you luv the job or not.

[ASD]

No matter how much you earn, its never enough. Either you luv the job or not.

I luv the job, BUT i can go overseas and get paid well and still love the job OR stay here love the job and be highly underpaid compared to my overseas colleagues.

There is a global shortage of ATC's, therefore the demand is high and all our guys leave. Dont blame them either... until we start getting paid what we worth, the guys will continue to leave.

It doesnt really take a rocket scientist (or an ATC :E ) to figure out what the solution is to our critical staff shortage.

[Radargod]

Nookie2nite

I'm just trying to say that things don't only just happen in JHB and CPT like ATNS seem to think. We have a problem country wide and it should be addressed asap. Of the people that we interviewed in PE two failed because they failed the personality test, but they passed everything else. There are so many a##holes in the company, how do they set a benchmark? What I'm saying is that if the outstations are going to get screwed with the retention - people will leave from there as well. We at PE have also lost many controllers and avionicians to the East over the years. There are many things that can be done(besides money) to make this a great company to work for, but unfortunately any suggestions aer ignored by the powers that be>

[Nookie2nite]

RGod,
I am not disagreeing with u at all....I am not against u...in fact I think that the outstations in SA have ALWAYS got the raw deal, and 99% of the reason is that GATSCA is 99% Jhb.....so I am with u...just didn't understand where counts came into it...
So I agree with u, and stand by my reasoning that retention is NOT the answer - coz those that will benefit - are those that don't, or didn't wanna go in the first place.....
......:cool:

[BOK2GO]

I agree with you RGod. I heard you guys are working split shifts because of the shortage. Eina!
The company seems to continue it's knee jerk reaction with the offering of retension packages and never resolves the problems at hand.
I for one am not going to sign anything and I wish I could talk to the rest of the 'greedy' atc's into doing the same. Maybe then we could get management around the table to sort out some long term solutions.
Alas though those not planning on leaving will sign and nothing will be solved.

[Goldfish Jack]

I aint signing anything either!

And you are so right - one only has to look at the instructors allowance - all the hot air about resigning and not giving instruction because they wont increase the allowance............. wonder when they going to put their feet where their mouths are

[Radargod]

:E
Just a general question? How do you guys/girls feel about ATC's returning from the East(after making lotsa money) with no penalty on their pay scale? To me it is a slap in the face!

Just wondering

[BOK2GO]

That's a catch 22. We need to attract the guys back to help supplement our staffing problems and coming back on only an inflation adjusted salary is not doing the trick. I think it's the right thing to do, then again on the flipside of that coin it is a slap in the face of those that have remained loyal to the company.
If you have a look at say the 5 year pay scale and top pay scale there's only possibly 4 to 5 grand a month net difference. Top scale is still atleast 25% down from what they're earning. So is it working? I think not.
We had two guys return from the M E. One has returned already and the other will be returning this year sometime.

[Nookie2nite]

Radargod,
That is a very narrow minded way of seeing things. Because a controller goes somewhere else for whatever reason - but gaining vast experience - why should he/she be peanalised? Get some ambition, and if you don't want to - leave the rest alone. Does a charted accountant who gains overseas experience get peanalised because he/she left an employer? NOT
By the way ME is not just a place to make money - its a place to gain experience - in controlling - and in life.
I heard someone like you in PE was shot down by ATNS management too about narow-mindedness......:ugh:

Hey BO'K - howz the packing coming on?;)

[makeapullup]

Nookie, I agree with you. Everyone had the opportunity to go overseas, so why this "punish" chain of thought. Experience in your field gained is experience gained!
This is by far a much scarier thing! More knee jerk reaction and another failure at plugging holes.
A can of worms has just been opened...
First off this thread might have to be renamed "The SA ATC salary debate thread"
Secondly. GATCSA - where is this SATC/PATC band hopping written? As i understand it, you say that if I spend 10 years as a SATC in FARB, then course and validate as a FADN approach controller I will slot in at the 10 YEAR PATC band!!!
However if I work FADN tower for 10 years, then course and validate as a FADN PATC then I only fit in on the 1year band.
Am I misunderstanding? The unfair labour practice Law will have to be looked at if that is the case.
This applies to JS tower guys as well. (Waiting to fit into a system that is not well. Never mind those guys that waited for SAAF guys to push in!) So in the end it pays to wait at an outstation.
I hope i'm misunderstanding this, otherwise there will be a lot of unhappy people!
An analogy - You are an intern for 4 years, then qualify as a doctor and straight away move onto the 4 year doctor scale!
If this is the case, why bother having different names for the scales.

Cheers

[BlueSkye]

BOK2GO, the topscale at ATNS is not even 40% of salaries in the ME. ATNS will never lure the people back from the ME with money. They only come back because of personal issues. The wife does not like it, that type of thing or retiring or something in that line. Why would anybody give up the lifestyle and comfort in the sandpit only to come back and work for peanuts. Up the net monthly to R45 000+ and some might consider it.

As for the slap in the face bit. Do I detect a hint of rancour in that statement? Since when is loyalty to a company a prerequisite? We live in a free market world. I buy at Hi-Fi Corp because they are cheaper. I have a skill that somebody else needs. Sold to the highest bidder. You want to use my skill again? Then up the ante. ATNS take resignations way to personal. It is not about them but about I.

BOK2GO, how much would it take to make you stay? (I assume you are leaving/where ya goin'). And be honest. Would a once off retention do the trick or must it be a continuous thing? No crime stories either. Just monetary if you please.

Makeapullup, how many left on the JS ACC roster? Still 4 sectors everyday?

[BOK2GO]

N2N

Have card, will travel. We patiently await the next round with AsA.

BlueSky

Another 10g net a month might tempt me to stay a little longer. We've made up our minds that we're leaving though and nothing really can keep us anymore.
Our board is completely clueless about what a competitive salary is and will just have to learn the hard way.

[saywhat]

Our board is completely clueless about what a competitive salary is and will just have to learn the hard way.

This debate has been ongoing for as long as I can remember. Those that can, will leave. Those that can't wont. I wish the best for both parties. Problem remains that those that stay have absolutely no power. They gripe, but do nothing. If you want to see changes, I suggest that you stand together for once and perhaps something might happen.

[Nookie2nite]

Saywhat.....

Exactly - I agree with you 100%

Retention packages might not even keep the ones tempted on leaving. Eg = BOK
and all those in ME, and all those going...
Retention packages will only help those who were never going anywhere anyway. :cool:

[BOK2GO]

N2N

No sir, I ain't signing no lock in retension package, no matter how large it is. What I mean't with my earlier post is that I wouldn't be rushing out of here if we had a significant salary adjustment. I'd be tempted to stick around for maybe another 18 months or so.
Lock in's create animosity and are a clear indication that the employer is not willing to take the steps to keep staff happy on a long term scale. This would be the 3rd retension contract I'd be signing and yet we're still in the same predicament we were in 1997. They don't work. You don't need a BA and a cushy position on a board to see this.

[Radargod]

N2N

Just as people have different reasons for leaving - they have different reasons for staying. Just because I am not leaving(yet!), doesn't mean that I don't have any ambition.:= People have different values in life and will make their choices according to that. All I'm saying is that ATNS should rather spend their money on keeping their employees happy than bring back a couple of ATC's from the East. Those that came back didn't have a gun to their head forcing them to accept the 5 year pay scale - they came back because they wanted to. I think one of the biggest problems is recruitment and successfull training of people to help our staff crisis. The ATA is hardly making any money - so why train people from Africa if we can increase the number of South African courses? Send successfull candidates down to our little VFR TWR and let them gain some experience before sending them to the bigger centres. We are the company's biggest assets and they should realize that. They gripe, but do nothing. If you want to see changes, I suggest that you stand together for once and perhaps something might happen.
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We should then stand together if we are not happy with what ATNS has to offer.

Amandla

[BOK2GO]

Rgod

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you on two points.
1) If the Academy doesn't train Internationals they'll operate at a huge loss. If operations are carrying them it means less money on the bargaining table for our salary increase. They are training our own staff but our pre-selection is less than desirable and the failure rate on Twr course is horrific.
2) We need experienced guys to come back from the ME. If it means offering them top scale then so be it. ATNS will be a much happier place if we had staff to man current and new sectors planned. This will spread the workload and improve working conditions. The reality of it is that they sneeze at our top scale and a large general increase is going to be needed to get them back. When the board realises this it'll be a win win situation for all.

[Nookie2nite]

Thank you BOK - you have the bigger picture.......could u draw it for Rgod:E
RGod...its not about how long and how loyal - with ANY company - or ANY profession - yeah u get the 30 year gold watch - so what? If u decide (or not) to explore and experience different things - its ur porogative - but don't shoot down the boys/gals that do. I know of 2 SA ME ATCs that have returned went back to ATNS - and are now back in ME - and I know of more that have returned to SA that would still like to go back to ME....don't u?
..........bottom line what I keep trying to say to you Rgod - open ur eyes and look past ur nose.....
PS How many of those exME ATC are still there on a 5 yr scale? :p
:cool:
:ok:
I do agree with you that things could be done differently within the company wrt training.....trial and error....whats the right way? Nobaody has got it right....
By the way - you got a gun to your head keeping you there with that salary???????????:}

[BOK2GO]

Also look at it from this perspective. If you choose to go do a tour of duty in the ME to earn some serious money you know you can return without harming your pay scale this side. It's almost incentive enough to go.

[Radargod]

N2N

I hear what you are saying and I agree that it is your choice to stay or go. So far I choose to stay and will review my choice after the retention offer. There is no point in getting upset cause I don't see it your way - each one is entitled to his/her own opinion. You might not agree, but to me loyalty is important. One of the pilots at LNK said that their is no ways that you return on the same salary scale once you have left LNK. I am sure that there are more companies like that. I am only saying that ATNS should spend all their time/energy/resources on keeping their staff happy.

Rgod

[22FOLLOW]

Loyalty these days is a convenience it doesn't pay. It's much easier to not have to pack up your things and take the risk, than to stay get paid a pitance and call it loyalty. How many ceo's and md's have been in charge since you've been here- were they loyal or did they follow the biggest pay check and when they left did the next company pay them less because they weren't 'loyal'.

[ZRH]

How many ceo's and md's have been in charge since you've been here- were they loyal or did they follow the biggest pay check and when they left did the next company pay them less because they weren't 'loyal'.
Couldn't agree more !!!

[BOK2GO]

It takes about 1.7 mil to train an atc from scratch and a lot of time. Bringing back atc's on correct scale is far more cost effective. Again, more money to sort the rest of the atc's out.
Them coming back on corrected scales is not affecting your salary. Infact it's saving the company money. So what exactly is your gripe?

[22FOLLOW]

To add to my previous mutterings, loyalty isn't sitting back watching people leave, possibly encouraging them to do so, and not supporting the company when they want to pay returning staff a fair wage(no more than you and I with equivilant experience) and then using the lack of staff as a bargaining tool at the next pay/retention package negotiations.Quote: "So far I choose to stay and will reveiw my choice after the retention offer......... loyalty is important to me." Smacks of double standards.

[Nookie2nite]

"So far I choose to stay and will reveiw my choice after the retention offer......... loyalty is important to me." Smacks of double standards.
HA HA HA....well spotted 22 :)
Rgog - I am not at all upset about ur opinion - I just think you come across as narrow minded wrt the returning ATCs. You use pilots from LNk as an example - I can name hunderds of examples where persons return on normal scales.:ugh:
Good luck with ur decision.....
BOK - pack boet pack! ;)

[EXATC]

I see the shortage of ATC's has hit headline news on Radio 702. John Robbie spoke to Wrenelle Stander who pretty much refused to answer the questions on the impending ATC losses. All the ATC's apparently are too "scared" to talk as they fear getting victimised or fired. Way to go ATNS :D :D :D Rule by fear.

[BOK2GO]

I hope the right people heard it because our board sure appears not to want to do anything about it.

[126,7]

Story I heard is that Wrenelle is really trying, its just that board is dead set against keeping the guys in the country. Wonder why? The whole world is short of guys, some more than others and yet ATNS can't or rather won't do a thing to make their crew stay. Pity. Maybe they can fill the gap with the ATCOs they're planning to recruit from India and Egypt.

[BlueSkye]

OK, I will say it (firesuit & bulletproof jacket on). ATNS doesn't care about the losses 'cause it makes their "employment demographics" look better. The people leaving are mostly white (Dutchman:E ) males. So just sit back and relax and BEE will take care of itself.

Had a chat with Old Mutual the other day to check if they have an After Retirement Loyalty Plan. They have!! You contribute the normal monthly installments with scheduled yearly increases and at retirement age they pay out SWEET BLUE F...ALL!!!

It makes me think about George W Bush's "Stay the Course" philosophy in Iraq. They are taking some serious losses over there but NOOOO, there is NOOOO problem. M. Mabasa for US president.

[BOK2GO]

BlueSky

This might've been true in the past but we've just had a resignation from one of our staff of 'colour' to the ME. I think Joburg has lost one too. A lot of these guys are now getting to a marketable experience level and will apply and leave as are the white guys. (Jeez, I hate making this a colour thing)
The CEO's response to our collegues resignation was, "didn't he hear about the 9 percent increase?"
Once you've stopped laughing pick yourself up off the floor and continue reading.
Now this new trend might just work in the favour of those planning to stay. We can't be going backwards with our BEE compliance. The white atcs may be dispensible but the rest surely aren't.

[Eagle T]

Well said Bok2go,Atns are a disaster recruiting staff and even worse at trying to keep them.If you look at wages of ATCOs across most of the world,it is on par with Airline pilots.This is not the case in SA.SAA pilots got a massive increase recently and backpay.

I understand that staff with ATNS can't legally strike.Is it the union who agreed to this.Why don't the staff go on strike like the French.If everyone together goes on strike then no one individual can be singled out and fired(but that won't happen cause ATCOs in sa don't stick together).Air Traffic Controllers are in big demand worldwide yet ATNS are doing there best to lose the staff they have.The staff must get together for once and make a big stand and for once show real strenght.It is the ATCOs and assistants that make all the money.And if an ATCO makes a mistake or has a loss of separtion it is he/she who gets suspended and in some cases fired.The ATNS management are quick to point the finger yet they pay them s**t wages.

The ATNS management can't recruit the cream of the crop cause the wages are just not good enough and as the old saying goes"If you pay peanuts you get monkeys"That is why there is such failure in getting people qualified.ATNS have to hire staff from overseas which is sad cause they end up paying alot more for them,instead of recruiting the right South African people and paying them proper wages.

[makeapullup]

And here I thought SA ATC's were leaving for the cheese and beers!

:\

[BlueSkye]

And here I thought SA ATC's were leaving for the cheese and beers!

:\

True words are often spoken in jest. ;)

[The 1]

[quote=Eagle T;3092552]I understand that staff with ATNS can't legally strike.


What would the consequences of going on a go slow for ATCO's(ie constant flow control at the big centres).

i understand that it would hurt the operators, but it sure will get the attention of those people who can make a change and the they will react
quicker to the situation

[cripton]

Yip this is my first shift. I have been monitoring the traffic on quite a regular bases and were very interested in some of the conflicts and some times I must say, near misses. I am going to try and keep everything I say to "RT" facts known to me by one on one encounters and not on assumptions (carrier wave only). I do accept jurisdiction of most flights, however on some I believe a go-around will be the safest option. That there is a TCAS warning at the FAJS ACC center is a known fact, however at the rate ATC's are ejecting ( due to gov. visa issues) the company will not really feel the bump. New recruits are being trained ( by the "strikers") and will again only fill the seats of those who left. Muscat, Abu Dabi, Dubai, rate of climb better than ATNS's 9%.
It is human nature to look after yourself (bad for religion), so doesn't really matter how you sequence your sentence, someone will always gain.-cripton'07:cool:
Why leave. South Africa does not have a crime issue.- T. Mbeki'07

[makeapullup]

another FAJS-ACC resignation yesterday...mmmm..the thick plottens....:ugh:

[BOK2GO]

I wonder how the quoted 18.9% (later revised to 8.9% after a challenge from FAJS) staff increase over the passed year now looks? We lost 5 atcs in Dec/Jan and have another with his resignation in for April.
How many in total have you guys in FAJS lost in the past 3 months?

[The 1]

how is the situation in the stations (esp in Ort & Cpt ),are you guys coping with the guys leaving,has it caused an upset in the shifts/working hours.
if yes,what are the line mangers saying to the big bosses?

[BOK2GO]

In CPT our Acc pool is pretty much on the bones of their asses and can't afford to loose anymore staff. I know of atleast two with their CVs abroad.
Our App/Twr pool is still sitting pretty although plans to open a final app director this year will have to be shelved. Here again we have atleast 6 staff members with their CVs abroad and when they go we will probably be in some poo.
Our MATS is doing everything in his power to let the CEO know the seriousness of the situation.

[Nookie2nite]

...tick tock...tick tock.....

BOK are your senior management as concerned as the floor staff, or are they hoping it will blow over? :ooh:

What about the Indian, Egyptian and Eastern block ATC recruit rumours? :sad:

Good luck - last one turn off the lights....broadcast 124.8

N2n

[BOK2GO]

I think they're counting on the fact that everyone will sign the lock in retension package.

Surprise!!!!!!!!!

[Nookie2nite]

....mmmmm....as I said before - the only ones that will lock into a retention scheme are those that have no intention on leaving anyway.....good luck....:eek:

N2n

[GrimmR]

ATNS is showing the usual forethought with ref staff retention, sorry there is no problem,,I forgot:ok:

[Goldfish Jack]

Looks like one of the options being considered is an extension of the endowment policy (aka the retention package) which matures in Aug, on a year to year basis.

Considering the growth of those policies and the benefits of an endowment policy, that might not be a bad option.

[BOK2GO]

Again that's only if you're planning to stay, and what about the staff that's not on a current retension package?
In the end that's not a bad plan from the company, that is if it is their plan.........?
It makes too much sense so it probably isn't.

[Shitsu_Tonka]

Those of you serious about applying to Australia, might I suggest you register and post on the Civil Air Website (http://www.civilair.asn.au/).

You might find it enlightening about what has been going on of late with yet another restructure last week, and some of the issues surrounding recent selection for postings. Not all of this info is available in the public forums but if you ask the right questions, you might be surprised at some of the answers.

[Duneboy]

Hi to all!
This is my very first "outing" to this forum. Very interesting to read all the known problems of the years in the past and those to come. Feel like time has stopped in ATNS!
One question: any information on Educats? I dropped myself in s...I mean trouble, few years ago expressing crap opinion about it.
Ended up in http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/icons/mpangel.gifsand. Everything written in the contract, short, straight forward, clear! Not at all ideal but much better than ATNS.

[BOK2GO]

I think 6 educats made it, 5 in Cpt and 1 in Joburg. It was scrapped and rightly so. They are now on PATC scales and of the ones that skipped tower and went straight to Acc control can't tell you the difference between a Cherokee and a C210.

[BlueSkye]

Now then, this thread is about to rival the ASA Global search one. Retention packages will not keep people in check. What will keep them in check is a proper monthly salary. The workers can not get a good rise(sounds kinky, but isn't) out of ATNS by means of negotiations. They allways have the upper hand. Arbitrating for 8% vs 6% is not worth the trouble. Back when Hein was president of the union the controllers were sold off for 30 pieses of silver by the then union. For some reason the union agreed to becoming essential services. This was supposed to be for a limited period of time. I'm talking 10+ years ago. You guys must lean on GATCSA to lean on Solidarity to get this bane of existence lifted. Therein lies salvation.

Yapping on this forum about how crappy the place is will not improve your situation. Do something constructive. Salary negotiations is done. Start fighting for a minimum service agreement. AJB was deadset against this for obvious reasons. He is gone now. Get the help of Solidarity. You pay your money so (ab)use them. Once/if you have a minimum service in place use this to have essential service lifted. Once that is done, gaan mal. And don't take any whining from the president about keeping a good relationship with ATNS. COSATU doesn't give a fcuk, GATCSA does. COSATU gets results, GATCSA doesn't.

These things (like most) don't happen overnight, but get your collective @rses in gear and DO SOMETHING. Your only hope is the union, but YOU must tell THEM what to do. The natural state of any object is rest and GATCSA will do nothing unless the members tell them to. Unfortunately the apathy amongst the members can be measured with a calender. This is your own fault, sitting on "Moedverloor se vlakte" whining and bleating about bad pay and conditions but not willing to stand up and be counted. Typical.

Please don't read this as an attack on the union. Maybe they are busy with this, maybe not. But for God's sake, stop wallowing in your self pity and grow a backbone!

[SINGAPURCANAC]

HeLo!
I read carrefully this issue and as I could understand ATNS needs qualified ATCOs i.e. ATCO shortage is at critical level. I applied during the last summer for APP/RDR position within your company and your human resource department answered that I could be eligabled for such position and they would contact me . After this answer there were no any further contacts. And my question is : Do you really need ATCOs or it is just "warning" for currently ATCOs in your company?
Another question is related to overal security in your country. How much are Port Elizabeth or Cape Town safe for Europeans? and
What is personality test?
Best regards to SA ATCOs

[BOK2GO]

But for God's sake, stop wallowing in your self pity and grow a backbone!

Or of course just run off to the ME. Fighting words BS for someone who wasn't prepared to do the same mate.

[BlueSkye]

BOK2GO, please tell me you are not gonna jump on the You-Left-So-Shutup bandwagon. Soooo last year. I did my bit for a long time, not just by criticising but by offering solutions, putting GATCSA in contact with the right people. So I was never on the board. Neither is the majority but what exactely are the people that are left doing. Nothing but criticise. Some people, like you, are looking elsewhere. The overwhelming majority do not have that luxury. It is the "lifers" who realise that they can't go anywhere who whine the most. Instead of bettering their own situation at home they just sit and criticise. Get involved, make your presence felt. The economic power wielded by the hundred or so ATCs are formidable. Start exploiting this power. It's like the crime thing. Everybody moans but nobody does anything.

[BOK2GO]

BlueSky

I am in constant contact with my Gatcsa rep down here trying to better things for all staff. Like you said, things take time and you for one know how hard it is to get things right. You're welcome to your opinion but when you attack those left here telling them to grow a backbone then expect a backlash from those of us still fighting the fight.
Unlike most I don't think ATNS is all bad. They're getting a lot right. We work on some of the best hardware in the world, we don't work more than around 32 hours a week. We (in FACT) have a fantastic management team looking out for us.
Yes, our board has no idea what a competitive salary is, but I don't think we'll ever fix that through GATCSA or Solidarity. Like you, the ATCs are just going to have to vote with their feet. Unfortunate, but probably true. Our board considers us greedy and no amount of negotiation/work to rule/industrial action will convince them otherwise. It's going to take mass resignation over a short period of time to convince them that comparitive salaries are not judged on local markets but internationally.

[BlueSkye]

Mass resignations from those who are in a position to do so. What about those left behind? They have no bargaining power whatsoever and unless they do something about it they will never have. Sometimes things need to be said to shake people out of there little cocoon of complacency. I expect nothing less than a lot of flak over my comments. That is the whole idea.

The ACC pool in JS has lost 5 people in one year. ATNS will never do anything 'cause there is no impact on the airlines. The airlines don't complain because the service is provided. Only when services to the airlines are interrupted will ATNS do something. ATCs aren't in a position to interrupt the service because this constitutes industrial action and is unlawful under the current stipulations. These stipulations need to be changed and only GATCSA and Solidarity can. The members need to make GATCSA aware of their desire to have this changed. Are they? I think not. And that is my whole argument, get onto the blower to GATCSA, write letters, send e-mails, hell I'll give you the number for a guy who rents out pigeons if that floats your boat. Just don't sit on your behind and complain about the unfair hand you are being dealt without at least trying something, anything, to better your own situation.

BOK2GO, if you are one of those who are actually doing something constructive then my comments are not aimed at you. It is aimed at those who sit in the restroom and talk about how crappy the place is, then leave the restroom and turn back into "Ja baas, goed baas, dankie vir my job baas."(Yes boss, ok boss, thanks for my job boss.) Doesn't have the same effect in English.

[EXATC]

:D :D :D :D Well said BlueSkye. I agree completely. Being classified as an essential service makes GATCSA a toothless dog. Also as I mentioned earlier on in this thread, unless the ATC losses affect the profitabilty of ATNS they could care less. I've seen many businesses that run under the same principles as ATNS, staff are just a means to and end. Thankfully most of them do care about the people who bring in the gold.

[aka mc]

Must say very interesting reading, somewhat hilarious at times...
Anybody else wondering where did GATSCA go? Maybe too many ques with no answers!? Wish I could find a forum with ATNS management, but unfortunately we have no contact, since everyone is in a meeting...
Darkness is a funny thing, it fuels the fire to keep the pot brewing nicely...

So many fingers pointing towards the poor sods that plan to stay and fight... missing the boat, hey? Well sometimes you need to swim towards the boat and hope and pray you make it. Unfortunately I love it here... and would hate to leave, does that then make me unworthy of the retention sceme?

[aka mc]

Would just like to add that I know it is unfashionable these days to be one of the few that wants to stay, not because you have to, but because you want to..

I also realise the benefit of threatening to leave!

[BOK2GO]

Well you'll benefit from it but it ain't aimed at you......
Nothing wrong with wanting to stay, we all have our own choices to make.

Have a look at this thread if you want more informed information at what atcs around the world are earning.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=249107

[aka mc]

B2G
How can you say that the retention is not aimed at me? Anyway retention smention... as you said it wont keep you here.
I am so sick and tired of all the "the ship is sinking" crap... Life goes on, no one is going to be missed by ATNS , so what if there is a few faces missing?
Why does it always have to be so dramatic? Yes, there will be a problem when everybody that threatens really leaves, but until then I think there is alot of others that wants to stay, but you only hear the loadmouth threats. Unfortunately as you just proved, it doesnt make you popular if you are not willing to jump on the bandwagon... Well mr 2go, if you really want to go, do it, its alot of money and a geat opportunity. Or accept the fact that in SA you will never ever earn a UAE salary.

[BOK2GO]

At the risk of sounding condecending, retension package = to retain staff. If you're not leaving then you don't need to be retained. This retension lock in is designed specifically to persuade those that want to leave not to. That said, you're welcome to the money those threatening to leave are organising for you.
You're absolutely 100% entitled to stay without any recrimination from anybody, least me. I'm not judging you in the least for it. Don't hold it against me though for wanting to leave though. As stated previously in this thread I'm not leaving for money but for a better life for my family.
Many others are leaving for more money. Again, it's a choice we all make for ourselves and for whatever reason they leave it's not to be judged by others.
Do not however be told by the company that you're earning a market related salary because you're not.

[22FOLLOW]

AKA MC

We'd all like to stay, but if your the bread winner in the family they're making it increasingly difficult to have any life style to speak of. The cost of personal security, 8 foot high fences and feeding my ravinouse pack of leathal dogs costs mega bucks. Go and try get a home loan on our salary not bottom scale but closer to the top and you may be offered enough to buy a 2 bedroomed "house" in Cross roads. I keep wondering if your posts are a joke from one of the guys trying to wind us up, it worked! If not keep burying your head in the sand, keep your bum wiggling could make an easy target for a drive by. I love it here but can no longer aford to stay and provide my family with an adequit standard of living with peace of mind and a clear conscience.

Regards

22

[22FOLLOW]

MC most of us would love to stay, but they are making it increasingly difficult if you are the bread winner. The cost of personal security, 8 foot high walls and food for my pack of ravinous leathal dogs costs mega bucks. Try applying for a home loan not bottom scale, but closer to the top and you'll receive enough to pay for a 2 bedroomed "house" in Cross Roads. I keep thinking your posts are one of the guys trying to wind us up, it worked! If not keep burying your head in the sand, keep your bum wiggling it'll make a easy target for a drive by ( or do you also believe the government when they say there's no problem). I would love to stay but I can no longer with a clear conscience and peace of mind provide my family with a decent standard of living and if there are employers who are offering better, be it life style or cash I'd have to be a fool not to be investigating these options and being as loud mouthed about it as I please.

regards

22

[cripton]

Blue Sky, all I can say is " on the money". What I can tell you is that solidarity is looking into the essential service policy but it will be a battle of note, ATNS will fight this as hard and unfare as possible. It is a priority even if it takes years. Us as employees, well, all I can say is that I'm always surprised at the weak support we give the Union i.e: amount of people turning up at meetings and sessions, how many even know what the collective agreement stipulates. ( I did'nt untill I got of my #@$#). We'll find out on Monday what we can complain about AGAIN ref. the holding staff scheme. Blue Sky, how is the beemer going?:cool:

[BOK2GO]

The Board approved the CEO's request yesterday, the BIG ANNOUNCEMENT today to the OIC's and MATS. I'm sure we'll all know by this afternoon.

So will this stop you from going to the Sandpit??????

[makeapullup]

No more posts! Either its the disappointment or its the typical confusing offer.

Maybe tomorrow it will be clearer!

Cheers

[BOK2GO]

From what I could gather it's a scale increase for all PATCs 5 years or more with only JS and CT being offered the lock in. I could be wrong.
If you sign for 2 years you get two lumpsums at the end of each year, if you sign 4 years it gets divided up monthly as an allowance.

[Nookie2nite]

...the question is....are thos that were thinking of leaving still going??

[makeapullup]

Flights booked just waiting for the start flag!

Cheers

[BOK2GO]

My apologies to the PE, DBN, EL and other PATCS who also get the retention bonus. Now that all is as clear as mud this is what I now understand.
Three seperate 'lock ins' were created. One for JS, a second smaller for CT and a smaller for the rest, all percentage based on 'cost to company'.
Now if you sign this you also qualify for a new Pensionable salary scale around 50 K more than the present one. After spending almost 10 years getting the salary scales into some sort of consistent uniformity they go and cock it up completely with this complicated madness. I have a real problem with a new set of Pensionable salary scales being created. If not illegal (unfair labour practice) it's down right immoral and unethical and I'm sure we'll be getting feedback from Solidarity pretty soon. You cannot move controllers with the same years experience to a higher payscale because they're willing to sign a lock in.
This all applies only to PATCs on the 5 year scale and up. The guys in CPT not planning to leave are absolutely thrilled with it. Of the 8 planning to go, it might sway 3 into staying. Mission achieved?????? I think not.

What happened to management getting people to stay because they want to, instead of locking them in with yet another rediculous contract?

They have however managed to pay an internationally competitive salary atlast, and at the same time lock the guys in.

N2N, we're still going mate.

[BlueSkye]

Hey Cripton, 180 in third, snap change into fourth and its feels like an elephant sitting on your chest. Gonna kill myself in that thing. Hang on baby, I don't know how fast this thing goes/big it gets.

Easy answer to those in CT and JS not eligible. Threaten to resign and Wrenelle's your auntie. Then you qualify. makeapullup, anything we should know about? Will PM you when ADSL is up again.

[yakiddenme]

Just heard this from up North in the desert!!!

You guys thinking of looking for better shores!!!!

Don't even think of ABU DHABI APPROACH!!

Some Local Arab Supervisor was working on approach with a SA controller doing co-ord for him. The Arab guy had some reduction wich caused a CA audio warning while the SA was busy on the phone with co-ordination. The Arab guy then made some remark as to why there was an alarm as the traffic was seperated (5nm). The co-ord ATC then did not even paid attention to it. Another SA controller in the radar room apparently saw this reduction and told the co-ord ATC of it. A third SA controller was in the tower and it is not sure if he saw this incident but these 3 guys were discussing it later and was not sure if they should report it or not. On the 3rd day, the 3rd ATC reported the incident and all 4 ATC's were called into the managers office.
All 4 of them then had to write reports on what they saw.
The Arab ATC was suspended from duty.

Two days later, the Arab ATC was given remedial training and the 3 SA guys faced a disciplinary hearing.

The Co-ord ATC was fired without any clear reason.
The ATC who saw the incident in the radar room was also fire with no clear reason.
The Tower ATC received a warning.

DO YOU CALL THIS JUSTICE?????????:E

General Manager = ex Zimbabwe-Namibia ATC, ex SA College ATC
Deputy ATC Manager = Ex SA ATC
2 Local ATC Managers

So, you still think the grass is greener on the other side????? Yeh... much more S....T, that's why. We have our problems here in SA, but not the same as the above!!

Think again

VIVA ATNS

[futr-kofeshop-dweler]

when did this happen??

[indecent]

VIVA ATNS ------ you gotta be kiddin me :mad: :=

[BlueSkye]

That explanation of events oversimplifies the situation with a lot of subsequent info missing.

[ZRH]

yakiddenme
So, you still think the grass is greener on the other side????? Yeh... much more S....T, that's why. We have our problems here in SA, but not the same as the above!!

Think again

Listen Buddy
Seems like you've never been outside your back yard !! Don't know who your snitch is on the other side, be carefull for what you say !!

[cripton]

The definition of stupidity is doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting a different result every time. Now, the question is - who's the stupid one, employee or employer?:hmm: