Flybe - 3 (Including the FlyBe/BACon merger)

[tristar500]

The sale of Connect wasnt a complete surprise... Connect were underperforming, racking up £6 million in debt this year alone (£20 million last year). The fact that flybe stepped in was unexpected however.

Its not just staff at BAConnect that this affects. BA Mainline staff based at EDI GLA ABZ and MAN now face the prospect of having NO job once the takeover is complete (MAR 2007).

In line with Mainline policy, 'outsourcing' is the name of the game. NCL as well as CDG and various other stations around the world have proved that this is the way to go, having no staff of their own, but a handling agent sometimes in uniform, sometimes not, looking after the complete ground operation.

EDI-LCY AVRO operations will be retained by Mainline BUT - will be hived off into yet another 'subsiduary' yet to be named. Whats the chances of it being called 'Royal Bank of Scotland Airways'? This new outfit will operate as did GO, on its own and will be handled independantly. That leaves LHR and LGW (which has only been given around 18 months to make money of face the chop). Lets not forgret Loganair. They will almost certainly opt for cheaper handling too at EDI GLA and ABZ independant of Mainline. Mainline will not retain staff, equipement, accommodation and resources just for LHR and LGW services.

Although we have not been officially told (that letter is supposed to arrive on Christmas Eve) its not brain science to work out the final outcome. The staff at EDI (and the other regional stations) can hold their heads high knowing that we put in a shift and a half despite the shi* we have had to put up with in recent times with respect to lack of staff, equipement, managerial direction, support and investment:D

Does Mr Wonka really think that LHR T5 is the answer to all his problems?
(Should have stuck it out at the Chocolate Factory) I Think that its a disaster waiting to happen. Why? Because the minute LHR has a problem, be it weather, terror threat, stricken aircraft on a runway etc, thats when it will turn to a pile of you know what. You can have as many runways and lavish terminals as you like, but remember the sky can only hold a certain amount of aircraft at any one time. IE Give routes to the regions who are more than capable. Why cant passengers fly from LHR-EDI for example then over the pond? GREED...

Merry Christmas Willie and the rest of your Oooompah Looompahs:ok:
Hope your fine from raking in illegal fuel surcharges doesnt put a damper on your festivities! Mind you you could well be eating turkey with bubba in a 6x6 concrete box with iron bars for curtains - what a thought eh!

PS - Sir Michael Bishop will be out on the lash this weekend! All the best to
you, especially since you see a need to base another two EMB145s in
EDI to pick up the pieces from the shambles BA has created...



Continuation of: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=232674&page=17

[WeLieInTheShadows]

Sorry to interupt.

I think you'll find Tristar that LGW is already back in profit.

Back to the thread.

[tristar500]

WeLieInTheShadows,

Sorry but according to a senior manager at a hastily arranged breifing yesterday on our future in the regions (or lack of one) LGW has been given 18 months to improve. Iam only passing on what we were told... Nothing personal.

[marlowe]

Ok Tristar i do feel sorry for any job losses in ground handling but the EDI ground handling is awful !! somebody on this forum said that BACON accounts for over 50% of the work at EDI but in reality you are only interested if the aircraft comes from LHR or LGW . BACON arrivals wait ages for GPUs pushback crews arrive when they feel like it, maybe if the ground handlers were more efficient there then you would keep the jobs BACON has always been seen as the poor mans BA when it comes to ground services at EDI.

[G-CPTN]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6112690.stm
Concerns have been raised in the Highlands over plans by British Airways to sell its loss-making regional airline BA Connect to rival Flybe.
The transfer will sever BA's cross border links with the Highlands, and 22 Inverness Airport jobs could be lost.

[HZ123]

LGW do have a couple of years to perform better than they do in very difficult circumstances viz clapped out 737's that get more complaints from punters than any other a/c in the fleet. Our friends in the regions left as BA may well soon find themselves working for Globeground as they at this time are BA's prefered GHA. LGW may breath a little easier for the momnet as they saw themselves with Bacon. I would suggest that the JFK from MAN will cease next year as it cannot be operated with enough profit if FC & CC have to be Hotacd and allowanced the day before the flight.

That said I wish all the best and as some threaders have said at least some of you now know the direction that you are going.

[tristar500]

Ok Tristar i do feel sorry for any job losses in ground handling but the EDI ground handling is awful !! somebody on this forum said that BACON accounts for over 50% of the work at EDI but in reality you are only interested if the aircraft comes from LHR or LGW . BACON arrivals wait ages for GPUs pushback crews arrive when they feel like it, maybe if the ground handlers were more efficient there then you would keep the jobs BACON has always been seen as the poor mans BA when it comes to ground services at EDI.

Marlowe, yes the ground handling isnt up to much but dont blame the ground staff on the front line - we are there, trained and ready but our hands are tied by management down south and to an extent Connect management too. We are understaffed, the equipement wouldnt qualify for a museum and the investment as a whole is non-existant. It has been run-down over the past few years, more so since the management change at Waterworld (Waterside) last year.

The delays incurred by tech Connect aircraft and lack of Connect crews didnt help the cause either remember...

[nitefiter]

Planter
this may well just have p1$$ed on baby,s parade concerning the planned expansion at BHX and aiming to be the largest operator out of there,will they still be able to negotiate the deals with the airport?
Most people around here thought Bacon would just disappear.

[fredtheanorak]

Has anyone heard definitively if JER LGW is being retained by BA as part of Fortress London strategy (737 route) or going to FlyBe with BAcon

[Thumperdown]

Fred
JER LGW is to stay with the Southern Fortress.
Regards
Thumper

[PAXboy]

JER LGW is to stay with the Southern Fortress.
[engaging cynical mode]Too many directors and friends living there to cut this service.
[cynical off]

I doubt that anyone can foretell where this is going. BA want to get rid of all the old regional routes that they originally had to take on when they bought the airlines to get their LHR slots.

As has been said, outsourcing is still a strong flavour of the accountants and they will cut anything that will boost the calculations for their bonus.

Oh, I see that I am still in cynical mode. It's just that I have been involved in UK commerce for nearly 30 years and it's difficult to have any other view.

[spanishflea]

I'm pretty sure LGW-JER more than pays its way. Its the only "domestic" service with a Club Class offerring, and that is for a reason. Lots of O&D into London and a surprising amount of connecting pax through onto the LHR and LGW networks. I know a few people who connect through LGW to FCO from JER in Club on a very regular basis.

[bmibaby.com]

Will GB Airways also go back to being London-centric or can we expect them to maintain their presence at Manchester and the regions?

[BALLSOUT]

I hate to pour a little rain on the parade but can flybe afford to do what is being talked about here? As far as i can se it, we are talking of more than doubling the size of the fleet. The plan seems not just to take on the bacon fleet but to replace it and perhaps retrain all of the crews. This is a massive task for any company to take on and it will take huge ammounts of cash. I have seen much smaller ventures cause the failure of companies in the past.
I would put my money on flybe increasing it's size by about 25%, cherry picking what it wants, then pulling the plug on the rest.
The best thing in the deal for flybe is not the crews, it is the fact that they have wiped out the competition.

BALLSOUT

[fly-dj]

Ballsout the umbrellas are at the ready.

However as I understand it we are NOT taking any of the bacon fleet they remain with BA until they are replaced by flybe airframes and at which point BA will dispose them.
We are not purchasing any additional aircraft to support this expansion, the 60ish Q400’s and 20ish E195’s are already on order or option and have been for some time.
One of the major reasons for taking bacon is so we have something to do with all these ordered aircraft and to have enough pilots to fly them.

[PAXboy]

goldeneyeThis really did come out of no where. Did not see it coming. BA did not give Connect a chance its not even a year old yet and there offloading it to BE.
I doubt it was out of the blue at all. BACon was created in order that it could be sold off. It means that this decision was taken a year ago. At that time they would only have had a list of possible customers but they created the 'vehicle' as they are often called, so that they could send it on it's way as soon as a buyer was found.

Some of the a/c will go back and, even at a high cost, this can be offset against the savings and so they free up their asset register and the maintenance overhead.

Also, by transferring the company not the staff they postpone many of the problems to be solved by FlyBe at a later stage. As has been said, after 18 months, "Very sorry boys and girls ..." and then go for the PLC which will make a killing and BA will get 15% of it. All in all - a smart looking plan for BA.

[Island Jockey]

It will be interesting to see what model the LCY - RJ operation follows. The options could be:

A wholly owned subsidury of BA with a new AOC AKA Bacon;
The RJs are taken back into BAs AOC and wet leased back to a BAR type of operation.
The RJs are taken back into BAs AOC and operatedEven more interesting is who will lead this new venture with its blank sheet of paper for success. The top team from BAcon or some new young blood from Waterside?

[Mr A Tis]

My money is on by the time T5 is up & running at LHR:
Gib air will no longer be a BA franchise.
Any other fringe franchise also disenfranchised, so to speak.
BA LGW will go , long haul to LHR, short/med haul probably offered to Gib Air ( a la Flybe)
BA in effect becomes BOAC ( or London Airways) operating long haul with euro & regional connecting flights to long haul from T5.

I have no factual information for the above, but seems to me, a very plausable WW plan.:eek:

[the former gk]

Just had a browse at Flybe regional press releases and no commitment has been made to Bristol whatsoever.I think a lot of spin is going on and Flybe will cherry pick the most profitable routes and a lot of regions will be dumped,ie Highlands and Islands etc.Bmi regional(if they play their cards right)could come out of this the overall winner here.As for Flybe being Northern Irelands leading low fares airline,well I and 3.8 million passengers per annum so far,dont think so...

[dontdoit]

Quick question - who exactly will be flying the RJ's out of EDI, LCY, etc? Heard a good rumour all the existing drivers would be going and that it would be put into the "big BA" pot for their pilots to bid in strict seniority order...Anyone heard this or heard differently???

[zzz]

dontdoit,

I think this is what mainline guys and BALPA would like and are gunning for.These aircraft are operating out of a London airport and as such are covered by the Scope agreement. Whether this happens of course is another thing.

I'm sure Willy we be overjoyed to pay mainline pay rates for RJ pilots currently earning BACON pay.

cheers

zzz

[PAXboy]

Mr A TisBA in effect becomes BOAC (or London Airways) operating long haul with euro & regional connecting flights to long haul from T5.

Yes, I could not agree more!! In fact, I have been saying this for about five years. From the moment the 'Shape & Size' project started, I have predicted that a BEA/BOAC split would emerge. When they stated that they would not split and wished to retain the regions and feeders, I said in PPRuNe that it was a decision that would be revisited until they got the 'right' answer.

That answer has now emerged and can be of little surprise. Not nice for the staff I agree - but of little surprise.

[virginblue]

Flybe have requested slots at DUS for a daily Q400 EXT-DUS service for next summer. Looks like a direct replacement for the BACON Junglejet on BRS-DUS.

If Flybe will take over some other BACON routes at DUS, they will become a pretty regular sight at DUS with quite a few daily flights to SOU, EXT, BHX, MAN and - as rumoured elsewhere - NCL.

[darren1]

Watch out for SOU to BCN, CDG and one of the Milan airports in the not to distant future.

[turnipgreen]

Flybe have requested slots at DUS for a daily Q400 EXT-DUS service for next summer. Looks like a direct replacement for the BACON Junglejet on BRS-DUS.

If Flybe will take over some other BACON routes at DUS, they will become a pretty regular sight at DUS with quite a few daily flights to SOU, EXT, BHX, MAN and - as rumoured elsewhere - NCL.

What's the source of this info? Is there a way of checking on slot applications?

[nicola1404]

Sorry to offend any BACON staff but we new this was a day to come, but what is going to happen to us mainline staff? They can't just turf us out because of BACON not making any money!!!! Iy's not our fault!!!:(

[marlowe]

Nicola1404 harsh reality time no BACON means that you have little work to do, and mainline are not gonna pay for you to sit around doing nothing all day! Harsh i know but thats the reality of the the situation we all find ourselves in .

[Mr A Tis]

Sorry Nicola, but I think mainlaine staff in the regions are in far bigger doo doo than any of the Connect people:uhoh:

[BHDflyer]

Sorry Nicola, but I think mainlaine staff in the regions are in far bigger doo doo than any of the Connect people:uhoh:

Sadly Nicola, unfortunately it is true. Its now known that when BACON go to flybe, mainline services from the likes of Edinburgh (although you may not work there I might as well just give an example), will be London City, Heathrow, Gatwick, Madrid and Rome (Not enough work will be left for groundworkers ie-check in staff, baggage handlers, truck drivers etc). It may not seem right to mainline staff that they should have to suffer because of some stupid, pathetic, unprofitable mess of BA Connect, but its now reckoned, sadly, that around half of mainline based staff in EDI, GLA, MAN, NCL, INV, ABZ, and any other base were BACON AND BA both operate, will be REDUNDANT by March the 25th next year. The other half will be lucky to get into flybe, but the trouble is that nobody knows which half they're in:{

All BA seem to care about long term is Terminal 5, and I'd say, in years to come, Gatwick will be next to go. British Airways only care about London, they're operation in years to come won't even be British.


A renaming to LONDON AIRWAYS?:hmm: :suspect:

[EGCC4284]

Could it be a good time for Thomson Fly to change its name back to something like Britannia Airways and paint their aircraft red white and blue with a big Union Jack somewhere on the airframe.

A good publicity move I would think.

[Ametyst]

Don't think Thomson Fly will revert back to Britannia. the airline is to be merged with Hapag Lloyd and Hapag Lloyd Express to create a pan-european airline. In turn TUI are holding talks over a joint operation with Air Berlin.

[virginblue]

What's the source of this info? Is there a way of checking on slot applications?

In Germany you can check them on the slot coordinator's website. DUS-timings for the EXT flight are 1420-1520, equipment is a Q400, flight numbers BE1993/1994.

Interestingly enough, I have only been able to find one daily SOU flight for the summer, so it could be that it might go back from two flights in the winter (evening departure, 1815-1845, BE1895/6) (other reason could be that the morning slot has already been cleared and taken off the waitinglist).

At MUC, Flybe has requested slots for two daily SOU flights with E195s (BE1721/1722 and 1727/1728). However, requested and cleared times currently differ by two hours, so it looks rather unlikely.

At FRA, Flybe has requested slots for four (!) daily SOU flights with E195s as well (BE1851 - 1858). No slots allocated so far.

[conradmueller]

the link is:
https://sws.fhkd.org/

[CVTDog]

Summer 07 from BHX to ALC ? Hurry up please ! :}

Hope they have a pm slot like last summer (15:10)

[OltonPete]

CVTDog

I am not totally convinced that Flybe will keep the ALC or AGP now that
they have taken the BACON flights and disposed of FAO & MJV (for the winter).

All the statements have been claiming that they will be returning the
BACON aircraft asap and if that is the case I am not even sure that they
will want the aircraft out for 5-6 hours when they can get four sectors in to
Germany or France.

I think BHX will hope that they will not return and the aircraft are directed to new routes. New destinations...BHX......well probably not;)

Pete

[CVTDog]

And I was hanging on for their availability as they were better than WW and ZB last summer.

This is going to cost me for holding out !

Your logic is sound - gutted if true the Easter and Summer flights with the other 2 have gone up considerbaly since they released.

p:mad: h

[turnipgreen]

Sorry to offend any BACON staff but we new this was a day to come, but what is going to happen to us mainline staff? They can't just turf us out because of BACON not making any money!!!! Iy's not our fault!!!:(

Nicola - excuse my ignorance but how do BACON and main line staff interact? Do you look after pax check in etc?

[Runway 31]

BA staff braced for job cuts after sale
TERRY MURDEN
BRITISH Airways staff in Scotland expect to hear of job cuts this week following the sale of BA Connect to cheap flights rival Flybe.
The company said the sale would have a "significant impact on BA ground handling activities" and it is feared that as many as 150 of the 434 staff could be axed.
BA Connect represents 53% of BA's Edinburgh flights, 35% of those going through Glasgow and 25% in Aberdeen. The Edinburgh figure is inflated as it includes London City flights which will be retained. Manchester's 300 staff are also affected and the cabin crew base will close.
A senior BA manager will meet staff in the three Scottish cities this week and it is expected that jobs will go by the time the handover of BA Connect goes through next March.
The company sold its loss-making subsidiary to Flybe last week after declaring that it no longer sat comfortably in its strategy.
Without significant investment it was unlikely to become profitable. It lost £20m in the last financial year and £6m in the first half of this year.
Most of the 1,900 staff are expected to transfer over to the new owner.
It is not yet known if all routes and services will be retained as there may be some duplication.

[flyer55]

Yeah thats true meetings this week in Gla & Edi so will be thinking of them !

Whats going to happen to the INV-LGW and IOM-LGW and will they come back into Mainline ?

[airhumberside]

IOM/INV-LGW go to Flybe

[judge11]

Operated from which end?:confused:

[jongeman]

Operated from which end?:confused:

That remains to be seen.......for nobody really knows:\

[Taff_flyer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by nicola1404
Sorry to offend any BACON staff but we new this was a day to come, but what is going to happen to us mainline staff? They can't just turf us out because of BACON not making any money!!!! Iy's not our fault!!!

It's a bit late to start thinking about BA Connect performance now! Your reply just goes to show that, all along, you've had no interest in BA Connect. Perhaps this is part of the reason it won't be around any longer?

It's a terrible time for all concerned - BA Connect, BAR and Mainline staff. BA Connect staff have none of the facilities afforded to BAR and Mainline staff through the displacement and careerlink schemes and they have a pitiful redundancy scheme nothing like the voluntary severence scheme you will have access to. It's awful for anyone to be out of a job but at least you are likely to be treated better.

[skiddyiom]

Taff_flyer

Even worse for those of us left high and dry here on Fraggle Rock. Not for us the facility of driving to another location for an interview, or another job here. Every interview (if any) involve flying/ferry off-island - unless you are an accountant or banking trained. Not many fit that bill though! And no surety of redundancy payment.

Still, come December/January we might be given some idea where we stand, although I won't hold my breath!! WW,DE and his cronies will have a nice Christmas, ours is going to be :mad: !!

Ah well, on with the CV sending! :}

skiddy

[zulublue]

anyone got any facts as to the plans for regional at bhx,all we getting is dont knows ,cant say answers .i think everyone at bhx saw this coming as we lost offices and rest areas ,but the company have put us in limbo with the day to day comment made by D.E

[NickBarnes]

Does Anybody Know when Flybe will eventually release there summer 07 schedule?:sad: other airlines seem to have released there's months ago.

[OltonPete]

I would imagine a full release is nigh on impossible until the tie-up is confirmed as a done deal. I suppose they might be able to do a
further part-release but as for the likes of BHX there would be little point as there are many duplicated routes (EDI, GLA, ABZ & HAJ).

I cannot think for one moment they will operate the 145 on any route
from April 2007, which gives them one almighty scheduling headache.

On the rumour and news thread there was a quote from a 145 crew
stating that he or she will hang around for the next 12 months
flying the 145 and then see what is offered.

Surely if flybe kept 20 odd 145's for the next 12 months on their
low fares model there will be no flybe either?

Has anybody got any info yet on what is being kept (fleet wise) in
the short term?

If flybe have any sense they will not operate one 145 after 27/3/07
or whatever the date of changeover is - all assuming this goes ahead!

Pete

[Ringwayman]

Looks like the Emb145 fleet will be around for a while as the flybe are stating that their cabin crew will be trained for those aircraft at applicable bases.

The revised network has, according to them, been worked on for several months with some BAConnect routes going to be dropped with the annoucement of the route structure planned by 1st January 2007.

[OltonPete]

Ringwayman

If the 145's are staying, who is going to pay for the losses?

No LCC to date has made money on 145's and even BACON management
have been quoted as claiming that losses have continued (okay the 145
is only part of the factor) since the "new concept" began last March.

It just sounds like financial suicide for anyone to to agree to keep such a plane on routes that the previous owner has allegedly stated does not work, especially if some of the figures mentioned are correct. Also I assume that flybe will be paying the crew "BACON wages" but trying to charge flybe prices from April?

Somebody explain how this works:ugh:

Pete

[chrism20]

The revised network has, according to them, been worked on for several months with some BAConnect routes going to be dropped with the annoucement of the route structure planned by 1st January 2007.


Any ideas which routes will be dropped?

[chrism20]

Another possibility might be to ditch the 145's and keep the BAcon 146's and their own 146's for the time being until the 195's & Q400's have all been delivered. Or will that still leave them short?

[a1234]

What new bases are likely, as it says in the Flybe FAQs recently that the new corporate plan being released on Jan 1st will envisage new bases?

[JobsaGoodun]

If flybe have any sense they will not operate one 145 after 27/3/07
or whatever the date of changeover is - all assuming this goes ahead!

Pete

I think we need to be a little realistic on this. Flybe will not have the option to simply dump 28 EMB145's onto the open market and have 28 new Q400's before March '07. Whilst not ideal it would appear that Flybe have indicated the phasing out of the 145 fleet as quickly as possible to allow for their replacement with Q400's/195's, whilst at the same time allowing for retraining of crews.

It could well be that a 145 operating a niche route such as BHXDUS actually makes money in BAConnect guise. Not all the routes are turkeys, otherwise why would Flybe be interested? A 145 flying six sectors a day may not make money but get it flying ten a day and the gaping financial hole may begin to close over.

Don't get me wrong, i'm sure that they don't feature in the long term plans as Flybe have already indicated that they have settled on Q400's and 195's but something has to ply the routes until the fleet transition is fully completed.

[MarkD]

What becomes of the 17 BA Embraer options Jethros lists? Taken on by Flybe and conv'd to 19x?

[OltonPete]

JobsaGoodun

I have since been posted a useful link and it is very clear that they will be
keeping the 145 after 27/3/07 and some flybe cabin crew might even
be trained on them.

As a BHX local and BA/BE/WW traveller I was pleasantly surprised at the
takeover but on the other hand I could not understand that any profitable
company would want to take on such an aircraft with a low cost operation
when the previous owner has claimed that the business continued to lose money.

Also on this link it stated that the ex BACON routes will be offered at
flybe prices. As an outsider looking in it seemed strange but I am sure
that the whole story has yet to be told. Although I am more than happy to accept that flybe know exactly what they are doing and all will become clearer in a few months.

Also with the BHX operation there is some route duplication and hopefully
there won't be too much of a need to keep many 145's.



Pete

[judge11]

Don't forget that route after (profitable) route was cast aside or given away by that idiot DE and his cronies. The fact that BACON was unable to operate a route successfully is by no means indicative that another operator with more than 10 cc of enterpise cannot - even with a 145.

[Hudson Bay]

Why has flybe got rid of the Q400 off its web site? Are they embarrassed of the old bone rattler? Nice picture of the jungle jet they have put in it's place.

[GBALU53]

To keep the company image upto date maybe??

[jongeman]

The Q400 is fantasic for getting people from Exeter to Manchester, or Glasgow to Birmigham, but it isn't going to fare very well trying to compete with Lufthansa 230s between Manchester and Frankfurt........for example.

[dv8]

Lufthansa 230s
What's that?
Dyslexia rules KO

[BHDflyer]

Another possibility might be to ditch the 145's and keep the BAcon 146's and their own 146's for the time being until the 195's & Q400's have all been delivered. Or will that still leave them short?

If they're currently phasing out their existing 146's I think that would be a bit silly.

So let me get this straight:

Flybe take all the BAcon aircraft (except the RJ's), ground the Dash-8 300's (whatever that means, I'm assuming that means they'll get rid of them), ground the 146's, and keep the 145's for a short time as there's 28 of them. Sounds like a plan:)

I do however wonder that if BAcon are unprofitable using a DH8/ER4 on a route for example GLA-MAN, how the devil are flybe going to justify this with the bigger Q400:confused: ie, if BAcon don't get pax on a Dash-300 on this route, how do flybe get the pax with the bigger aircraft? Now I know that BAcon fares were a rip-off, but lets be honest I mean flybe fares aren't really THAT cheaper now are they? I suppose they could use the bigger Dash but then reduce the number of flights, but then again there would still be inconvenience as there wouldn't be as many flights. BAcon weren't profitable with the ER4 because of competition, but now that there won't be any major competition anymore, why can't Mr French sort of say "eh, hold on a minute, these are genuinely good, fast, reliable regional jet aircraft lets just give them a painting job"? bmi regional seem to live on the aircraft and have just been voted the most puctual regional airline of the year, so why waste aircraft? Anyway I do hope it works out for flybe as they are a good company and thay get my verdict as I flew with them a month ago today.

[OltonPete]

BHDflyer

As for the flybe 146's Jethros has "AW" going this month, AV already at
Kemble and "AS" WFU (sure that was at BHX recently).

If they can stop the "WFU" I am sure they will but if there time is up, as
with "AV" then I doubt there is little they can do.

With MAN - GLA, flybe will be relying on keeping the BACON pax and adding extra leisure pax and as their base fare is £10 cheaper than BACON
they should be able to do that.

Also if they keep it at 4-5 a day they should not alienate the business pax too much but of course they are competing against a full service airline in BMI but MAN - GLA, EDI & ABZ should be fine for flybe.

Not so at BHX where it be a straight fight with Baby and they have even
lower base fares.

As for the 145, it might work for BMI but there is no way that flybe would consider competing with them when they have gone away from that type of business model. They had the CRJ once and that certainly did not work out plus Duo & Independence Air are a reminder to all what can happen.

I must admit I can't wait to see the aircraft allocation for summer 2007.

Pete

[Airlink Scotland]

Some folk here are missing a vital point of the BA Connect takeover by flybe.

The matter of 12 million pounds! That money I am sure will go to underwriting the operation of the Emb145 fleet for the next 12 months or so.

There is no way flybe can operate even 50% of BA Connects route structure beyond March 07 without the 145, so that money must be going towards the operating cost of these airframes.

If anyone thinks this strange, well it is par for the course, just see what the bright sparks at BA did with the "Jetstreams going to Eastern Airways" fiasco.... :\

[bmibaby.com]

Obviously the Embraer 145s are going to have to stay in the short term to be able to cover the flying programme, though you can bet that the flybe management team will be keen to ensure that deliveries of the Dash and Embraers arrive as quickly as can be to get rid of the 145s. They're not the right equipment at all for a low cost airline, which is evident in the failure of Independence Air who tried to serve smaller communities with this type of aircraft and the low cost model. bmi regional whilst doing very well for the bmi group, only makes money out of the type because they put the aircraft on high yielding routes, they don't try to compete with no-frills airlines, and provide a full-service model with full-fare prices to match - it's a completely different proposition to what flybe are trying to do.

Is it now confirmed that flybe will be moving to Terminal 2 at BHX? They mentioned that they'd be taking over the Terraces Lounge, and given they like to mention the benefits of cosy regional airports, T2 seems perfect for the quick minimal fuss operation that they want to offer to keep journey time as low as possible, particularly when competing against the train on routes like EDI/GLA? Presumably this will be another major period of growth for Swissport?

[OltonPete]

Airlink

Thank you for that, I for one had missed that point and explains the logic behind keeping the 145's for a year or so.

I just don't remember seeing the 12 Million mentioned but there are so
many aspects to this transaction I am not surprised that I have
missed some ;)

Cheers again and I promise not to mention the 145's again :oh: .. for a
week or two anyway

Pete

[CheekyVisual]

BHDflyer, BACON didn't fail to make any money due to the cost of operating the 145 / D8 and low loads. Having worked at the coal face for the last three years at BHX loads are very good and the aircraft (other than the RJ) cost very little to operate. The reason BACON didn't work was rubbish management ! The training bill alone for the last three years with all the fleet changes and relocation would have wiped out the profits of most UK airlines. Couple that with not ever advertising your services properly and setting up a mini waterside at Didsbury with a manager for everything including unblocking the RJ sinks the result was inevitable !

Oh yes and no one can find out how much money BA syphoned off using BAR ground handling which surprisingly (not) makes a massive profit even though they only handle BACON, SN and Eastern.

The 145 isn't the right aircraft for LC BA knew that but would not let BACON re-equip. Given that the sell off has allowed BA to close just about every outstation in the UK and virtually withdraw unseen from the regions a good plan well accomplished me thinks. Having DE in charge guaranteed failure! With FlyBe cost base 145 can make effective money until it is replaced by something more appropriate.

[HZ123]

As a BA head office oik I have to dispute that ground handling made a profit. BA / BAR ground never made money and was high cost all the time.

[GOLF-INDIA BRAVO]

Flybe have today announced 13 extra routes for the spring with what looks like the first of the ex BACon routes ie
Manchester to Brest and Rennes and 6 daily to Glasgow

G-I-B

[Daza]

New routes from BHX
Split Sat only
Dubrovnik Tue,Thu,Sat
Hamburg (former BACON) only once a day with mid day timing.
GLA and EDI onsale for summer but NO sign of 10 a day shuttle that has been sited on website??
Daza

[GOLF-INDIA BRAVO]

The main tranche of routes ex BAcon is due to be announced at or near end of year/new year which I would say by looking at what has been released is about 90 odd percent

Give the guys a chance it must be manic trying to pull all that together

G-I-B

[darren1]

Expect a few new routes from SOU to be announced soon too. Thus far only recommencing flights have been announced today.

[MonkeyB]

Have they accidentally let slip some news re routes from CWL? Cardiff is mentioned in the press release but no routes on sale.

MB

[skiddyiom]

Latest news from Fraggle Rock is not to expect to have a job wef 24th March. Flybe will only take a limited amount of people from here, which will entail significant loss of income and large amounts of redundnacies.

So, what they do with the aircraft is academic as far as we are concerned. Who cares, when you have to find another job?

skiddy

[San Expiry]

Skiddy

Are you talking about the jobs down at the hangar (which seems pretty certain although there is much spin being put on the situation by the Government and flyBe) or at the airport itself? The handling agent for BA must be on very shaky ground unless they get the flybe contract but don't flybe use another handling agent there already?

[skiddyiom]

Yes, I am referring to the hangar and support departments. And yes, Flybe use Flight Support at the moment. Manx Regional would be affected as they would lose at least 9 flights a day. Which also affects me and several others who have partners in either operation :uhoh:

Life is looking bleak

skiddy

[MonkeyB]

Well either I'm cracking up and have started seing things or Flybe have spotted their accident and deleted Cardiff from the press release?

If anybody else saw this then plese let me know I'm not loosing it!

MB

[flyer55]

Anybody know what is going to happen to the IOM and INV services to LGW ? Just had a look on flybes website nothing coming up ?

[caaardiff]

...I missed this....
Lets hope they've let slip by accident and FlyBe will be winging its way over to CWL soon!
Out of curiousity, if they do setup at CWL, surely this would affect BRS right?
Having BHX,CWL,EXT and then BRS right in the middle would be a bit extreme right??

[MonkeyB]

The only route continuing in BRS after the winter is Jersey.

MB

[NickBarnes]

whats happened to any new Norwich routes, just the same as before?

[MarkD]

BHDflyer

Here in Toronto Porter Airlines are expecting to make money with a Q400 when Air Canada used to only use a -100. The difference being that with the extra puff in those PW150s the Q400 can probably do a couple of more daily rotations compared to the BA -300s, or take on sectors currently operated by the 145 in similar flying time.

As the Qs accumulate at Flybe the benefits of a larger fleet in terms of crewing and engineering will become apparent. BACON's mixumgatherum fleet should have been slimmed down long since - now Flybe will swing the axe for them.

Maybe with their relationship with Embraer a swap of some existing 145s - maybe as corporate/military conversions - plus the BA options in exchange for more 190s or 195s could happen?

[Smile!!!]

Well either I'm cracking up and have started seing things or Flybe have spotted their accident and deleted Cardiff from the press release?

If anybody else saw this then plese let me know I'm not loosing it!

MB

I cant believe that I missed the CWL news on flybes website aswell. Although I have heard it on another forum so it could be some good news on the way for CWL and not so much for BRS, :E :E :E shame :E :E :E

[manx crab]

"Latest news from Fraggle Rock is not to expect to have a job wef 24th March. Flybe will only take a limited amount of people from here, which will entail significant loss of income and large amounts of redundnacies."


Skiddy

First of all best wishes to all of you in your search for employment.

Surely, there will still be work after March as the 145's and 146's are still going to be flying after then unless Flybe is going to drop a lot of routes. Plus where are the RJ100's going to maintained.

No one that I have asked seems to know how much the Government has invested in the facility but surely BACON/FLYBE cannot walk away without some cost

[OltonPete]

Probably an even more pointless post from me than usual, if that can be possible ;) but I have just checked one Monday in May and the N/S are
as follows: -

BHD - 6 (BHX, GLA, LBA, LGW, MAN & SOU)
BHX - 5 (GLA, EDI, ABZ, BHD & GCI)
EDI - 3 (BHD, BHX & SOU)
Exeter - 6 (from 14/5/07) - ALC, EDI, GCI, AGP (14/5), MAN & CDG
GLA - 3 (BHX, MAN, SOU)
GCI - 2 (SOU, LGW)
Jersey - 2 (SOU, LGW)
MAN - 1 (GLA)
NWI - 2 (EDI & MAN)
SOU - 9 (AMS, DUB, DUS, EDI, GLA, LBA, AGP, MAN & NCL)

Total 39

Per Jethros 42 (11 146's, 26 DH4's & 5 195's)

However assuming that 3 of the 195's replace G-JEAY, M & K then it will 39 but the DH4 deliveries only go to January on the list, which could mean another 4 by May (at one month if possible of course).

Just to prove how easy it could be to eliminate some of the BACON aircraft - new route duplication at BHX for night-stopping aircraft -
Hamburg, Aberdeen, Glasgow & Edinburgh and then the EDI-BHX
and GLA-BHX. Potentially six aircraft gone although they have
promised 10 a day BHX - GLA & EDI, which would require more aircraft.

Pete

[tallaonehotel]

manx crab

The 146 fleet will be maintained/sold by FLYbe, the 145 fleet will be maintained/Handed back by FLYbe....
FLYbe will maintain the RJ fleet, come on if you had a 15% stake in the venture......
The manx government are a two bit joke who will have no influence over what happens at the end of this fiasco.

The hangar on the rock has been hanging on by it's teeth for a few years, the work can be done cheaper and more efficiently elsewhere.....
Having seen several bases being the sacrifice for the IOM, the game is finally up.

[Anotherflapoperator]

I for one am deeply saddened by the way it's turned out for the ground staff at the IOM. I think too much emphasis has bee nplaced in this thread on the 145 as an airframe, rather than the way BACON operate it. With crews touring all over the place and taxis moving 145 crews all over the country, surely that is why the costs for operating the fleet are so high.

When the Ex-BAR routes were taken on, this is when all this touring began, and the costs of this must have contributed to the eventual downfall. It doesn't change the current situation, where the Hanger will be wound down as Exeter takes on work. Even the BA Connect logo is falling off the hanger roof now!

CheekyVisual got it about spot on I suspect.Had a Manx/BRAL and Brymon merger occurred, under BRAL or a mix of management, it may well have worked and eventually gobbled up FLybe, but we'll never know. The BAR millstone, and Parachuted in management saw fit to create the situation we have today.

There is a strong possibility of the Dash 8 Q300s being grounded and disposed of very quickly in the new year and the crews re-trained on the Q400 ASAP, or indeed put on EMB145 courses to fill the crew shortages there. Rumour control said we would get a 145 based on the Isle of Man to replace that Dash, and there's no shortage of LHS crew to come home and crew it!

I just hope everyone gets a fresh start and happy future when the dust settles. Best of luck to everyone. As for those working for Manx Regional, the current BACON crews are pulling for you, we will let Flybe know what we think of the opposition and how much we want to stay with Manx Regional! Good luck everyone.

[San Expiry]

Quote - Rumour control said we would get a 145 based on the Isle of Man to replace that Dash, and there's no shortage of LHS crew to come home and crew it! - End Quote

AFO - are you mad? The whole point of the takeover is for a company that makes money to continue to do so and that won't happen flogging a Barbie Jet to and from Manchester.

And as you appear to be based on the IOM, what if anything have the the untouched few been told about what they can look forward to now the real world has arrived with a bang?

[Curious Pax]

Second EMB195 arrived at Exeter yesterday. Where will it be based/which routes is it down to operate?

[fly20]

the EMB that arrived yesterday is the EXT based one, commencing services on wednesday. finally. :)

[flyer55]

Does anybody know why Flybe havent released their routes for LGW mainly Inverness and IOM !

[elgan]

Does anybody know why Flybe havent released their routes for LGW mainly Inverness and IOM !
The present BACON scheduled to be announced and integrated on Jan 1st. So not for sale at the moment

[HH6702]

jan 1

the new ncl routes to go on sale then?

[Bagmanlgw]

Does anybody know if there are to be any new routes from LGW or increased frequencies to any of the current services

And what are the possibilities of IOM and INV being transfered to the South Terminal instead of the North ?

[bmibaby.com]

Does anybody know whether British Airways' 15% stake in flybe may have any benefits for customers, or whether this is simply a way of BA being able to maintain some say in the regions before making a quick buck on the stock market? It seems that flybe will be taking over things like lounges, so are flybe considering offering Executive Club benefits to keep ex-BA passengers loyal, or are they hoping they will switch to the Skyteam-weighted flybe frequent flyer offering.

Also, the closure of BA Connect seems to offer interesting times ahead for handling agents in the regions. Can we assume that the "new" flybe will be handled by existing agents, or if there is a planned massive tender? I know BA are particularly keen on Swissport & Servisair, whilst flybe seem to use Swissport or aviance.

[Cyrano]

It seems that flybe will be taking over things like lounges, so are flybe considering offering Executive Club benefits to keep ex-BA passengers loyal, or are they hoping they will switch to the Skyteam-weighted flybe frequent flyer offering.
Not sure if you are looking at a different frequent flyer offering to me, but the flyBE "Passport to Freedom" scheme here (http://www.flybe.com/frequentFlyer/rewards.htm) is a modest frequent flyer programme, with much to be modest about ;) (and no flight redemptions on any carrier other than flyBE). I don't see any Skyteam link.

And as for your question "are flyBE considering Exec Club benefits to keep ex-BA passengers loyal?" I have to ask: loyal versus what? taking the train or the ferry? The fact that BA Connect offered (some) Exec Club benefits didn't save them, so why should flyBE increase its costs in one fell swoop by paying BA for Exec Club miles on all its routes, including the ones where it doesn't face any significant competition?

(Yes, I know that flyBE competes with other LCCs on some of its routes, but it seems to manage fairly well, and increasing costs across the whole network for a marginal benefit on a few routes doesn't make any sense to me.)

Brgds
C.

[bmibaby.com]

Obviously Cyrano the benefits of incorporating Executive Club into the new 15%-owned-by-BA flybe, is that a number of customers who have remained loyal to the airline despite continually deteriorating benefits would continue to do so. flybe would no longer have the overheads of running "Passport to Freedom", rather their customers could take part in an internationally recognised frequent flyer programme. Indeed, flybe is no longer involved with Air France or Flying Blue, sorry for having facts out of date. It seems with flybe competing with other modes of transport or with other low-cost airlines on a lot of routes, it makes sense to have some distinguishing features even if it does slightly bump up costs.

[CheekyVisual]

I see on the CWL thread and Flybe.Com that flights from CWL are due to start next summer. I assume the initial BHD service is going to use BHD equipment, however, does anyone in the know think that there is a possibility of a CWL crew base being set up in the foreseable future. As a ex-pat CWL person about to be drafted into flybe the possibility of a CWL base would make the prospect more agreeable.

[PAXboy]

Well, if FlyBe want to improve one thing ... they can start with BA on-line check in. Normally reasonable but tonight was a classic.

First off, my Exec CLub preference states WINDOW, so I am pre-allocated an AISLE.

I then go to select one of the dozen seats that I could cheerfully sit in and find that the browser will not allow me to click on any of them. I reckon that it might be my Firefox 2.0 browser (althought that should not make any difference, some sites are stupid about these things). So I back out from on-line check in, load IE and start again.

This also means that I have to repeat the stupid business of checking a box to say that I have the permission to check in all the members of my party - even though I am travelling alone. This means that the twits who approved the final release did not have the software check if the person is a sole traveller and so puts them to more trouble.

I then discover that I am already 'Checked In' and that I can now print my boarding pass if I want to. Gosh, how clever of the website to check me in when I had not told it to. Must be some super-special code those boys have. :hmm:

There is no facilty to change the seat allocation and so I am left change this at the terminal. Yes, it is a teeny-tiny thing but if you cannot get the basics right, then you have got nothing right and, if there are no window seats left on the flight my trip will be greatly diminished in pleasure.
So, three mistakes:

Long stated seat preference ignored
Required to tick boxes that have no relevance
Software failed to carry out my request which will give more work for the staff at LGW on the day.
End of Rant.

[chrism20]

Flybe have online check in, its called Q-buster or something like that, works in a very similar way to BA if I remember correctly, am not sure if you can change your allocated seat though.

You can also pick your seat at the time of booking at a cost of £5 per sector. I always thought that this was a bit cheeky, but now EZY & FR are charging you upto £7.50 for the priviledge of being one of the first on the aircraft (or the bus to the aircraft in some cases) this is actually really good value for money!

[Railgun]

WeLieInTheShadows,
Sorry but according to a senior manager at a hastily arranged breifing yesterday on our future in the regions (or lack of one) LGW has been given 18 months to improve. Iam only passing on what we were told... Nothing personal.

We were told exactly the same by one of Wonkas henchwomen. Once BA and the BACON Slicer have finished closing down the regions then they are going into Gatwick as they are loosing money hand over fist and they want out. Bring back Sir Colin Marshall and Lord King who must now be turning in his grave at the disillusion currently sweeping through the management at BA.

Dont worry though T5 will save everyone....O it would be even better if all the flights could fit into T5!!! Sell your shares now its a sinking ship and wonka is going to go down with it, crews balloted for strike action over christmas :confused: due to the errosion of terms and conditions, pilots threatening to go out as well. This time i hope the unions stand up to Wonka and dont roll over and have there bellies tickled like Lingus ones did. :ok: :(

[Skipness One Echo]

OUt of curiousity, what BA routes out of Gatwick lose money?
I believe long haul turns a profit? So without telling too many tales, of the number of routes on short haul, how many are profitable?

Because if we don't know that, we don't know much and I suspect that even Wee Willie Wonka isn't that keen to gift easyJet that many more travellers.

[CheekyVisual]

The Beach fleet (the lgw 777 flying holiday routes) makes a lot of money but that really is about it. BUT they will move back to the golden runways as soon as T5 opens and then its just the old EOG 737 operation. GB make some good money but rumour has it they MAY want out of the BA franchise to go long haul themselves (Heathrow Air is worried someone might prove long haul works away from terminal 4 !). Given the way WW has used the engineered demise of BA Connect to chop the whole BA regional workforce the demise of EOG might enable him to chop every member of ground staff at LGW as well ! Wasn't the EOG operation supposed to be converting to the BUS by now ? Strange how that's not happened isn't it. As soon as DE rides to their rescue the jigsaw will be complete !

As for giving a few pax to easy well over the last five years they've completely surrendered the entire UK except London and after all LGW is really Brighton isn't it, you know dirty regional flying. A few more won't make any difference at this point but old WW will be able to say he has carved costs to the bone. Everywhere except where it mattered ! It's as if BA never heard the one about eggs and baskets !

Doesn't matter how much EOG makes or loses they are next on the block. T5 is the bunker where BA management are convinced all will be well.

[devon_guy]

I noticed today looking at Flybe's website that they have increased their prices again, some by as much as £12 plus the luggage prices have increased. So much for a low fares airline, the prices and "charges" are becoming a joke.

[manx crab]

The long haul BA routes have to stay at LGW until the Bermuda 2 mess is sorted out, as for the short haul then its only a matter of time:{ which is a shame a LGW is much better than LHR to fly from.

[NWSRG]

Can't say I have much experience of BACON service, but I hope they teach FlyBe a thing or two...

They have refused to reply to three e-mails I have sent to their customer services people...reinforcing my feelings on their previously shoddy service levels...not good at all...

[flyer55]

Well we all know that when T5 opens it is not going to be bigger enough to cope with LHR routes as well as LGW so LGW is here to stay !

Watch this space to see what happens when it opens , best bet would be to demolish both LGW and LHR and build One Big airport in the middle with easy access from all areas like ams for example !

[Railgun]

Clearly there is a lot of delusion that LGW is going to be the last bastions of BA :ugh: . It might not happen this coming year or the year after but they are coming, T5 will be the closing call.

Once T5 and the 2nd satellite is opened BA will no longer fly from any other airport in London either domestic, european or interantional. That is providing there is a BA as if the crews and pilots strike there will be a take over bid and Emirates will come a knocking.....

[chrism20]

Moving the topic a bit - what will happen to the lounges at SOU when BE takeover BAcon?

Both have a lounge, neither much better than the other to be honest, given the fact Aviance deal with most of, if not all of the handling at SOU cou they be in the running to open a lounge there? Surely given the fairly poor facilities and the relatively quick landside to airside journey times this could be a monneyspinner for Aviance and a good boost in facilities for SOU

What are others thoughts on this?

[Skipness One Echo]

I don't buy moving all to T5. It's not THAT big and even Virgin operate a spilt London operation with the Beach Brigade at Gatwick. The North Terminal experience is very pleasant after all, good luck to all at LGW. The telling thing will be a big order for the A319 though I expect that LHR will get the new ones with LGW getting the old LHR and BHX machines......

[PAXboy]

Skipness One echo Out of curiousity, what BA routes out of Gatwick lose money?
Ahhhh - that depends on how you count 'losing' and 'making' money? It depends upon a thousand management decisions as to what will be coutned towards the costs of the route and therefore affect it's ability to make money. If you had a few extra costs, then a route can become marginal, or even make a loss. A route may be very useful to many thousands of pax and make a small, steady profit - but that may not be enough for it to be classed as a profitable route.

flyer55Well we all know that when T5 opens it is not going to be bigger enough to cope with LHR routes as well as LGW so LGW is here to stay !
Whether T5 is big enough will depend upon how many routes BA is operating at the time ... Who says that they will operate all of the current destinations? I agree with Railgun.

I should state that I am not in the airline biz, just an observer and user of it. But I have worked in a very wide range of commercial enterprises.

[jongeman]

Whether T5 is big enough will depend upon how many routes BA is operating at the time ... Who says that they will operate all of the current destinations?

Precisely. BA operate the more high-yielding routes through Heathrow for a reason, it's easier to maximise profits by having them link up there. Apart from being based in London, a lot of the BA ethic is about connecting North American business with emerging markets like Angola and India.

[akerosid]

Ultimately - and we're talking a good ten years down the road - the availability of a third runway and sixth terminal at LHR will allow BA to increase some of its s/h routes there, so I would expect that by then, BA will have a very limited presence at LGW. I'm assuming the whole O/S issue will be sorted out by then (not necessarily a foregone conclusion!).

What happens then at LGW, as far as Flybe is concerned; it only operates three LGW routes - GCI, JER and BHD. Will it expand into some old BA markets, or will U2 be moving quickly to take up most of this slack. And of course, one can't rule out FR taking full advantage of BA's departure.

[Hudson Bay]

Heard today that flybe are pulling the JER - LGW after bmi's announcement of JER - LHR which starts next summer. It might be that flybe pulls out of Gatwick completely and just concentrates on the regions. Interesting times.

[Whispering Giant]

Hudson - Once again see your talking out of your arse once again.....

[akerosid]

I'd have thought BA would be the most likely of the two to pull out, given that (a) BD will take some - if not most - of BA's Club traffic and (b) BA's future in LGW is probably not that secure; they'll probably blame BD for what they intended to do anyway. Not that one can have much sympathy; they could have avoided this if they had left JER with even two dailies to LHR.

If BE does abandon LGW, then there is another carrier that can fill that gap pretty easily ...

[GBALU53]

Well |Whispering Giant

You Quote that Hudson Bay is talking out of he,s backside, the bit about BMI hopeing to start the Heathrow-Jersey is a strong possibilty.

BMI imploy two engineers in Jersey who do the turnarounds for the Baby flights, a few weeks ago it was quoted "why does Baby need engineering help in Jersey." We dont have any at out stations and if we have a problem then we will source some.

The engineers were close to being retired early, there was a last minute reprieve, they will be required if and when BMI start the Heathrow service with an Airbus and the aircraft would be night stopping in Jersey.

So part of Hudsons Bays story is very strong I have not heard about the Flybe side of things, but could be strong with British Airways Having fifteen percent in Flybe why do they need to operate the Jersey to Gatwick in competion so interesting time comming ahead.

[airhumberside]

If Flybe leave LGW and therefore pull off LGW-INV, INV and is going to be stuffed as it will loose all day return options to London. Once daily to LGW/LTN on Easyjet and LHR on bmi may be nice for leisure and connecting passengers but business passengers are going to stuffed and if no replacement could be found the Highland economy could be seriously damaged.

[bmibaby.com]

I for one, am very much looking forward towards the end of the month when there is more information available following a confirmation or dissolvment of the merger plans. flybe and BA Connect seem to make perfect sense in a merger situation, it is just very sad there has been so much negative press around the acquisition given the lack of information that has been made available. BA Connect have had very poor management, an inadequate fleet and face strong competition at each of their major bases (BHX, MAN, BRS and until recently SOU.) flybe would allow for a strong regional operator for people living outside of London, with a modern fleet of aircraft, decent route network and pretty good customer service levels. If the merger doesn't go ahead, BACON will almost certainly face closure and it will be up to airlines like flybe, bmibaby and Jet2 to source aircraft quickly to fill the gaps.

[GOLF-INDIA BRAVO]

bmibaby.com

Very true, if nowbody is quick to take on the routes who will laughing? BA as everyone will have to go via LHR

I really wish BA would pull off the shuttle and then maybe Manchester/Glasgow might get the service they should and pax not end up subsidising the London pax

G-I-B

[JobsaGoodun]

Heard today that flybe are pulling the JER - LGW after bmi's announcement of JER - LHR which starts next summer. It might be that flybe pulls out of Gatwick completely and just concentrates on the regions. Interesting times.

Hmmmm, and you heard this on a Sunday afternoon from whom exactly....:rolleyes: ???

I'm not too sure that Flybe are overly concerned with BMI, in either mainline or Baby terms. You only have to look at the financial situation of the airlines to see who is best positioned to come to the fight and I can't help but feel that, on this count, Flybe have the upper hand.

The only reason for passengers to choose BMI ahead of BA and Flybe would be the whole 'connection' issue at LHR. With Flybe not offering connections onto other airlines, and having not done so for some time (where BA have via LGW) I really don't think this can be used as a reason for Flybe's pending failure on the JERLGW route.

No, I think there may be some crossed wires here! Suggest we re-evaluate the facts and from whom we heard them! :ugh: :ugh:

[PAXboy]

Well, IF FlyBe were to pull out of LGW, that would be AFTER they have taken on the BACON routes (which they have not yet started), so I think this is being slighty previous (even by PPRuNe standards!).

Let us not forget my other regular route that Flybe are due to take on, LGW~IOM which is currently four daily rotations (three I think at weekends) and even if weekdays are reduced to three, it is still the prime route to the Island. Since STN is being cut back (other thread) and LTN just cut (other thread), the LGW should :rolleyes: remain viable.

Shall we wait to see what FlyBe do? The one certainty is that BA will be cutting back at LGW and are making their bets on the extra slots from the 3rd blacktop at LHR to give them the slots they need to complete Fortress Five.

[chrism20]

I can't see Flybe stopping the INV routes to be honest, I travel on the current BAcon service at least once a month - often on the middle of the day sector and even that is fairly full. And if its a Q400 instead of a 146 the load factor will be higher.

I'd imagine that Flybe would make a packet on this route with their baggage charges and i'd be surprised if the INV sectors don't sell more food & drink than any other, on my trip last week I sat in the middle of the plane and it took the FA's nearly 30 mins to get to me and they weren't dawdling

[Fullback]

Devon Guy...

Think the fares going up may have something to do with the Chancellor's budget plans last week.

The public will end up paying, not the airlines!!!!

[uncovered]

Hell would freeze over before BE pulled of JER-LGW. A mooted JER-LHR is Bishops way of hitting back at Flybe for accquiring BA Connect and ending his hopes of creating an elegant exit for his lossmaking conglomerate. Flybe flies mainly P2P traffic and the connections issue will hit BA harder.

[CVTDog]

I am now a really grumpy EX-FlyBe pax who used to like the way they treated me, with resonable fares and generally pretty nice people to interface with.

Well - the phone calls to my home this aftenoon which cancelled my Mums flight and my wife and kids flight to join me in Alicante were delivered in a terrible manner, in a matter of fact way. (its all in the small print apparantly) by someone who had absolutely NO care and compassion for the mayhem they were causing.

So - FlyBe dont want my business any more. They will no longer fly to Spain from BHX. This is effective from Jan 2007. Due to "operational reasons"

My Feb half term flights are invalid. Cancelled.

I have two choices - I can have my money back or drive 218 miles to Exeter.

They have treated me with contempt - they will not assist me with any compensation so that I can book with the more expensive BMI flight. I HAVE to travel on that day so I will HAVE to pay out. If I had booked with BMI on the same time day it would have only cost £15 more, now its £50. I stayed with FlyBe because I am a fairly loyal customer (10 rtn flights from BHX to ALC in the last 12 months) and I wanted to try the E195.

Surely they knew when I booked the flights less than 25 days ago that they were going to suspend the route

I guess there will be some "tough luck" comments from this forum, but its the sensation that I just dont matter to FlyBe because I am PAX.

They are doing what they can get away with, because they can (they even quoted EU law at me) and because I ticked a box on a web page.

They have the "right" to change a schedule, as it says in the small print, but to use that clause to cancel flights and break our contract seems a abuse of the system without proper recompense

Havent they heard of goodwill ? (daft question)

Grrrrrrr :mad:

[GBALU53]

The big question in a lot of the threads that have been going around show there is a lot of problems that need sorting out and time is running out

Untill the winter is over, has Flybe really taken over B.A.Connect??

Until the Bacon is nice and crisp then we might all know where we stand????

There are a lot of passengers out there that are not happy for a number of reason one of them is for cancelling flights only a few days after they are booked.

The very big question is Can Flybe handle all what they have taken on YES or NO????

[JobsaGoodun]

The very big question is Can Flybe handle all what they have taken on YES or NO????

Without doubt...YES!

It is regrettable when any airline opts to cease operation on a route that is planned and I think it's fair to say that there will always be those who suffer. The aquisition of BAConnect may well have thrown up some issues that no one on here is privy too, and this could be the route cause of the cancellation.

CVTDog - yes you could have booked with BMI but it wasn't so long ago that their customers at Teeside suffered a similar fate when they withdrew services. Clearly i'm not aware of the correspondance between yourself and Flybe but maybe they were simply giving you all the facts so that you know what can/cannot be expected of them post any cancellation. Had they just sent you notice of the cancellation then it could be argued that they weren't providing enough reason behind the decision. I think by quoting EU Law they were simply advising you your rights.....I see nothing wrong with this.

I guess there will be some "tough luck" comments from this forum, but its the sensation that I just dont matter to FlyBe because I am PAX.

Passengers are an airlines life blood, do you realy believe in this statement?

So - FlyBe dont want my business any more. They will no longer fly to Spain from BHX

Wrong - I'm sure Flybe will welcome your business again in future on any of the existing routes that they operate. It would be very difficult for them to take your business on a route they no longer operate!!!!

BHXALC was good for a while but with Flybe, BMIBaby and Monarch all offering scheduled services and with the charter airlines also in for a piece of the pie I imagine that Flybe can make better use of their resource elsewhere rather than fighting it out for 'bucket and spade trade'. I'm sure plenty of BHX travellers would much rather see new destinations such as Split and Dubrovnik launched rather than have 3 aircraft from 3 different airlines all head off to ALC within an hour of each other.

[CVTDog]

Sorry - I have a home in ALC and I dont see myself as a "bucket and spade" pax as I spend about 14 weeks a year in Alicante - Santa Pola. You would be suprised how many people on the flight are not bucket and spade, going to Benidorm for example.

(BTW - there will be more bucket and spades going to the former Yugoslavia)

They pulled out because they didnt want to "compete" with WW and MON and they wanted to switch their resources elsewhere.

In any case - the point of my thread is that they did not treat the cancellation process with any kind of dignity, respect and customer care. Thats the real issue - what other business deal would YOU enter into, pay the full asking price and then the seller say - nah, dont want to sell you that now !

Imagine entering into a contract to buy a car and the dealer (after you had agreed the price and delivery date) changing his mind and selling to a higher paying customer.

Others may see a difference (because its a airline), but I dont !

[BHDflyer]

jethros.i12.com states in the BA Connect fleet lisings that the 10 Avro RJ 100's will become BA Cityflyer, effective 1st JAN 2007. These aircraft will be kept by BA for LCY operation

[ncleflights]

CVTDog

What exactly is your problem as you have already stated you have other airlines that can take your business and get you to your destination, think of the poor people up at teeside that lost out when Bmibaby pulled the entire base without another airline operating the routes that were lost. Those poor folks had no option but to cancel their entire plans.

You have had to suffer some minor inconvenience and additional cost with having to book with the alternative carrier.

[turnipgreen]

I don't buy moving all to T5. It's not THAT big and even Virgin operate a spilt London operation with the Beach Brigade at Gatwick. The North Terminal experience is very pleasant after all, good luck to all at LGW. The telling thing will be a big order for the A319 though I expect that LHR will get the new ones with LGW getting the old LHR and BHX machines......

Will also be interesting to see if any of the 319's become 318's for use at LCY in the future.

[bmibaby.com]

Flybe pulling out of the Spanish market from BHX is very good news for both bmibaby and Monarch, as it allows both airlines to strengthen their position in this market - not so good for the average customer who has seen their (admittedly unsustainable) choice of airline to AGP or ALC decline over the last two years. I wonder whether we will see any increase in frequency from ZB or WW because of flybe's departure, or if this is a temporary move from flybe and the routes will return once the dust has settled from the BACON merger?

[conradmueller]

CVTDog

Have you tried forcing them to offer you alternative transportation with a lawyer of your choice. In Germany this sometimes helps very well.

[Centre cities]

Have you tried forcing them to offer you alternative transportation with a lawyer of your choice. In Germany this sometimes helps very well.

They may offer you Exeter Alicante....think I would rather re book.


Centre cities

[CVTDog]

Your quite right - thats what they offered - Exeter to ALC. It longer to drive there than fly from BHX. I am re-booking with BMI

[OltonPete]

CVTDog

Sorry to hear about your flight, I would not be surprised if this is to cater for the BACON Barcelona or Madrid.

If the deal is concluded there will be no RJ100's in BHX from January and I would imagine the 195 will be directed to one of the other or even both as BCN only operates Mon, Wed, Fri and Sunday.

It could do Madrid Tue & Thu with possibly a 145 or even one
of their 146's filling in the rest of the days.

BHX is going to take a major hit in January pax wise if this goes through, pity Baby couldn't have jumped in earlier.

Pete

[TeaAnyone21]

CVTDog

BHX is going to take a major hit in January pax wise if this goes through, pity Baby couldn't have jumped in earlier.

Pete

Speaking from experience on board maybe it wont be a huge loss pax wise without the ALC and AGP. The 195 only carries 6 more than the 146 for flybe and is by no means flying full all the time. It will free up the embraer to operate more sectors daily. Remember that Flybe are increasing frequency to Scotland aswell.

Only time will tell I guess.

[Take up the Hold]

TeaAnyone21

Flybe are talking about 10 flights a day between BHX and GLA/EDI. This however is a reduction in the 12 flights per day already operated by Flybe and BACON.

PF

[OltonPete]

Sorry I was not very clear with my last post. I was not just referring to
AGP and ALC but the loss of 9 RJ100 flights a day, some completely
and some to the 145.

However I am not sure how many GLA & EDI's they will run in January
if the deal goes ahead but I am sure the early morning outbounds that BA operate as RJ100 flights will go completely, which is a sizable loss on its own. The two RJ100's also due out at 17.30 will probably also go, then there arethe two DUS RJ100's which will be 145's & another CDG down to a 145.

Okay in January they are not full and it is possible that the majority will be accommodated on other airlines but it could be tight.

Alicante is daily by Baby and 3 a week by Monarch, again it will be tight if the pax can be accommodated and they certainly won't be in February unless either of these airlines add rotations.

Pete

[GOLF-INDIA BRAVO]

Please confirm if I am right on this but don`t a lot of the GLA/EDI flights by BAcon to BHX then go onwards to somewhere else in Europe which give BHX quite a high number of transit pax whom I presume clear customs at BHX

G-I-B

[OltonPete]

G-I-B

Yes there are still some at BHX.

The first Frankfurt in goes to GLA BA1757

The first GLA in BA1802 to CDG

The 2nd EDI in goes to Madrid BA1792

The third GLA is BA1806 onward to CDG (change of craft 145 to RJ100)

Then I think there are the inbounds 1793 from MAD out to EDI, 1807 in
from CDG out to GLA and 1764 from GLA out to FRA.

The N/S Frankfurt is due to cease in March if the deal is done
and as for the rest?

Pete

[GOLF-INDIA BRAVO]

Thanks Pete

G-I-B

[Daza]

BACON RJs often flew with single figures on them! I have seen the load numbers as my brother works for BAR on the ground (they still havent been told if they have jobs yet!!!!!) BACON have a lower fill rate than Flybe (why the airline lost so much money that and the rediculous number of managers they had.) so maybe less rotations but more passengers per aircraft may not be the passenger drop off that is being predicted. I worry about Flybe at BHX long term they seem to test routes at BHX. Then discontinue them or massively reduce their frequency and capacity. Also they commence the duplicate operation from one of their other bases. I just hope that BHX does not loose too many routes ie LYS,GVA. Looking at Flybes Croatian routes it could be possible that BCN or MAD will be operated on alternate days during the summer. Lets hope airlines like Vueling,Click and Swiss fill any gaps. I am also surprised that LH have not seen a gap in the market on TXL,HAM,STR,DUS,HAJ I believed they were planning to expand in the UK regions?
Dissapointed rant over!!
Daza

[flyer55]

After reading your point of the RJ flying in single figures , I remember the day that the RJ used to have 50 / 60 in club on a thur/frid from AMS and Jer and flights packed !!

[Charlie Fox]

I see FlyBe are having another fantastic day!!! Many delays and cancellations around the network.

[GOLF-INDIA BRAVO]

I think you will find most operators are in the same boat and will be all week with the weather

Ryanair and Easyjet had Liverpool based aircraft everywhere except Liverpool this morning

G-I-B

[the_fish@blueyonder.]

Maybe not just due to the weather. I'm currently sat in the departure lounge at EDI, waiting fro my flight to LGW.

The FLYBE Embrarer is parked just outside the window, the passengers have just had to walk off and identify thier bags, and get back on again, there's a lot of groundstaff round the plane too, some of the bags were taken away in a van.

Not sure what's happening, they seem to be loading bags back on at a very slow rate.

[Maude Charlee]

the_fish@blueyonder

Sounds like a baggage discrepancy, and for whatever reason it couldn't be resolved easily by checking the AAA paperwork (happens quite a lot I'm afraid). It sounds from your description like a baggage ID was neccessary, as this is sometimes the quickest and easiest way to rectify the situation.

Not something the airline can be blamed for.

[Maude Charlee]

I see FlyBe are having another fantastic day!!! Many delays and cancellations around the network.

I suppose the airline is to be blamed for the fog, and the fact that at many of the aircraft bases the legal limits for either departure or arrival set by the CAA, are such that in the present conditions it would be not only foolish, but illegal to operate.

Get a life you gimp!

[the_fish@blueyonder.]

Not something the airline can be blamed for.

Oh I know, some of the passengers looked annoyed, but most seemed to take it okay. The plane left, I think about 20 minutes late, so not a big deal.

I'm currently waiting for my flight to LGW, delayed due to the fog. I have just seen an Easyjet flight land, so maybe this is my aircraft.:cool::ok:

[Hudson Bay]

In BHX yesterday and Flybe had 6 Aircraft doing nothing!! Seen the 195. Very nice. Seen the Q400. Props are defo for boats.

[Chesty Morgan]

I see FlyBe are having another fantastic day!!! Many delays and cancellations around the network.

It's not for lack of trying. 6 go-arounds due to fog yesterday, and that was just me. I apologise for not having x-ray vision.

[flyingbug]

Chesty,

I wouldn't worry too much about explaining - even BA!!!! had to cancel ALL domestic flights into LHR today.;)


FB

[chrism20]

flyingbug


This is a BA war-cry though, anything goes wrong everything domestic is cancelled - remember August?

[Chesty Morgan]

Flyingbug, I know, I can't help wanting to educate the ignorant masses though!:ugh: :}

[chrism20]

Just received this email from BA regarding the sale/merger


UPDATE


Dear Mr XYZ,

You may remember that we announced in November the planned sale of BA Connect to Flybe. We continue to make good progress and hope to be able to confirm more details to you soon. It is critical to both BA Connect and Flybe that your experience is affected as little as possible during the integration of the two airlines.

We would like to reassure you that after the sale is complete Flybe will offer a range a great products and a high level of service, details of which can be seen on their website

In the meantime BA connect will continue to operate normally and you should continue to book as normal.

Thank you for your continued support

[stupot7783]

The BA Connect takeover by Flybe has been put back till 31st January.

http://www.nextgenerationairline.com/updates.htm

[airhumberside]

How many routes, exlcuding LCY ones do BA Connect currently operate?
The latest update on the next generation airline website (see link posted by stupot7783) shows only 22 Flybe routes will be former BA Connect ones - sounds like quite a few present BACON routes could be dropped

[initial]

airhumberside

BACON operate 48 routes excluding LCY and MAN-JFK. They are

BHX to ABZ, BCN, BER, CDG, DUS, EDI, FRA, GLA, GVA, HAM, HAJ, LYS, MAD, MXP, STR
MAN to ABZ, BHD, BRU, CDG, DUS, EDI, FRA, GLA, GVA, HAJ, IOM, JER, LYS, MAD, MXP, SOU, VIE
LGW to INV, IOM
GLA to CDG, FRA, MUC
EDI to CDG, HAM, SOU
BRS to CDG, DUS, EDI, FRA, GLA, MXP, ZRH

[initial]

We already know the 8 BRS routes are being axed

Several of the routes are duplicated with the existing Flybe network

BHX - ABZ, BHX - DUS, BHX - EDI, BHX - GLA, BHX - GVA, BHX - HAJ, BHX - HAM
MAN - BHD, MAN - GLA, MAN - SOU
SOU - EDI

This leaves 30 routes. I doubt Flybe will continue GLA - CDG, FRA or MUC as these operate via BHX and could simply be offered as connecting flights.

Leaving 27 routes., so 5 will be axed to make the 22 planned

My guesses are MAN - BRU (already rumoured), MAN - HAJ, EDI - HAM, BHX - BCN & MAN - VIE

[OltonPete]

Initial

I would have thought BHX-GVA would have been one for the chop.

Really bad off season loads (12 a flight in November) and it comes up against BMI Baby December - March.

The BCN slot would be fairly valuable, could they flog it or does it just get
handed back?

Can you clarify re Bristol, as the nextgenerationairline site shows two
based 145's until Oct 07 - are you talking post Oct 07 or has things changed?

Pete

[GOLF-INDIA BRAVO]

Initial
MAN-GLA is not an existing Flybe route only MAN-SOU and BHD are duplicated

G-I-B

[chrism20]

From looking at the info sheet from Jim French on the next gen website INV & IOM are both to get lounges, looks like a bit of long term commitment to these two areas and possibly some expansion as well???

Sadly still no real long term indications regarding BRS though, however still a/c to be based there.

[4props]

chesty,
6 go-arounds....I hope they were at different airfilelds? Part A; max of 2 approaches before mandatory diversion? This is for very good reasons...fatigue, fammiliarity and lastly 'press-on' itis (not that I would suggest you would be in the last cat.
Merry Christmas & safe flying!

Mike

[virginblue]

I am pretty sure that there is no duplication on BHX-DUS. It is only served by BACON at the moment.

An indication might be that STR and FRA will loose their nightstopping aircraft. Particularly interesting in FRA's case as slots there during peak times come at a premium and surrendering them is quite surprising (unless Flybe intens to cash in on them - or maybe they are not included in the deal to allow BA mainline to nightstop an additional airframe at FRA).

[Chesty Morgan]

chesty,
6 go-arounds....I hope they were at different airfilelds?
Mike

Oops, typo! 'Twas 4 (four), at 2 (two) airfields.

Yuletide felicitations and a happy new terrestrial orbit to you too.:ok:

[pipertommy]

Does anyone know if Cardiff is to become a base for Flybe operations?By this i mean will a/c be based at CWL?Thanks

[Island Jockey]

INV & IOM are both to get lounges.............

Bacon aleady have a 'room' at these airports so Flybe will no doubt assimilate.

[NickBarnes]

I am pretty sure that there is no duplication on BHX-DUS. It is only served by BACON at the moment.

An indication might be that STR and FRA will loose their nightstopping aircraft. Particularly interesting in FRA's case as slots there during peak times come at a premium and surrendering them is quite surprising (unless Flybe intens to cash in on them - or maybe they are not included in the deal to allow BA mainline to nightstop an additional airframe at FRA).

Flybe are looking to start a NWI-FRA service, it has been reported in a local newspaper that this will be announced in Jan.

so thats where some of the peak time slots could have gone

[elgan]

Morning all, any ideas what happens tomorrow? What routes will be dropped from the BACON Network etc?

January the 1st 2007 will be an interesting day in Flybe's history!

[GOLF-INDIA BRAVO]

I thought that the deal was running a month late now?

G-I-B

[elgan]

I thought that the deal was running a month late now?
G-I-B
Is it? Darn, and I was quite looking forward to tomorrow!

[NickBarnes]

perhaps they may still launch the rest of there new routes tomorrow. and leave the BACON's untill the deal's complete.

I was rather disapointed when they said the deal was delayed till the end of Jan

[virginblue]

Air International has an article on FlyBe and it says that by 2009 the fleet will comprise of 64 Q400 and 16 E195.

This is the first time that I have seen the planned breakdown of the fleet and to be honest, I find it quite surprising. It would mean that despite the new and enlarged flyBE the original size of the E195 fleet will be kept with no options being firmed up.

If I have the figures right, the current orderbook is 16 E195 and 45 Q400s, with 12 options for the E195 and 16 for the Q400. Assuming that AI is correct, flyBe will firm up all Q400 options and order three more airframes. In short - is this just a wild guess by Air International or is anyone able to confirm this information ?

Btw, the article also says that the future flyBe will be 70% domestic, 20% European business and 10% European leisure - another figure I find hard to believe.

[Ckin Gal]

Where handling for FLYBE and BACon are different anyone heard who they'll go with? I know JER is handled by servisair for FLYBE and airline services/aviance combination for BACon.

Any ideas welcome....

[swedish]

As soon as the flight numbers change from BA to Flybe all slots are put back in the pool and you get in the queue for them to be reallocated. IATA rules prevent the transfer of slots between airlines.

[JobsaGoodun]

swedish

Slots can be transferred, however in theory you cannot trade slots. It does happen, often with plenty of money changing hands too, particularly if its somewhere like LHR for example.
The slots are owned by the airline operator and, to my knowledge, do not change based on flight number. With Flybe acquiring BACon, all of BACon's slots at the various airports operated to/from will become Flybe's, otherwise you acquire an airline with no viable routes!

[EI-BUD]

I could see Bristol being cut back when Flybe assume BA Connect services. Many of the routes are EZY ones and they will be tough to make ends meet on and I can see EZY increasing frequency from the summer season.

In addition I would suggest that BEs annoucement of a 'base' at CWL is a nice reminder to BRS airport that they need to give a good deal to them ??? In any case Zurich is unlikely to feature ? As for eg EZY said charges were really excessive at there and not conducive to LCCs.

[OltonPete]

The nextgenerationairline website certainly indicates that Bristol is going to be cutback with just two based 145's.

For Bristol at least they have an aggressive competitor in Easy who I am
sure will pick up most routes (as well as Bacon crews ;) ).

Flybe could also have trouble at BHX, both CAA stats and anecdotal evidence suggest they are getting a beating pax wise (by baby)
non more than the December 2006 provisional figures for the Belfast routes.

Flybe down nearly 5000 and Baby up 4000 - fog did pay some part
with Baby operating virtually all their flights and flybe only a handful
during one three-day period.

The unknown aspect is the yield, I just hope flybe is making
sufficient money on their flights at BHX and it does appear that
they do charge more than Baby.

Interesting battles ahead.

OP

[stupot7783]

Where handling for FLYBE and BACon are different anyone heard who they'll go with? I know JER is handled by servisair for FLYBE and airline services/aviance combination for BACon.

Any ideas welcome....

Apparently Swissport have agreed to continue to handle Flybe from what BA staff have heard this week at BHX however we havent heard anything from the horses mouth so to speak so watch this space.

[MarkD]

bmi are announcing 4 "new" 145s - are they new from Embraer or new from BA Connect-Flybe by any chance?

[GBALU53]

Due to the late delivery of the third EMB195 the company is leasing in an ATR72 to cover very odd cannt afford a jet to do this?.

Am I missing something how can you say a Turbo Prop can cover for a Jet aircraft the seating of the two aircraft are differant any way.

Are Flybe losing the plot big time or is this just a little or very big glitch?

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

GBALU53 -

This sounds like a minor short-term issue to me. The ATR72 is perfectly adequate to fill the gap on a route such as BHX-BHD (on which the E195 flies) until the new aircraft is available. Range is not an issue and the flying time penalty is probably limited to around 10 minutes. The jet / prop flight-time differential is minor on most of FlyBe's network.

I'm not saying that BHX-BHD is necessarily amongst the routes directly affected - I don't know FlyBe's plan - but much of the airline's network matches the criteria of this example. It seems to me that FlyBe is acting responsibly towards its customers by leasing in capacity to make good the shortfall caused by the delivery delay. Some companies would not do this.

[mathers_wales_uk]

Does anyone know if Cardiff is to become a base for Flybe operations?By this i mean will a/c be based at CWL?Thanks

By looking a the FlyBe website i have noticed that the Belfast City - Cardiff route is operating from Belfast City.



Where handling for FLYBE and BACon are different anyone heard who they'll go with? I know JER is handled by servisair for FLYBE and airline services/aviance combination for BACon.

At CWL i know that the handling agents for FlyBe will be Aviance which is the same handling agents as BA uses if there were a Diversion.


Does anyone know if there will be further expansion by Flybe from CWL in the near future?

:ok:

[FlyboyUK]

I see the IOM hangar has now offcially been put up for sale in this weeks Flight

[Smile!!!]

http://www.nextgenerationairline.com/updates.htm

Too be totaly the flybe by April 2007, Talks with the unions went well for CC. So, when will the fully published time tables come out?

The enigeering announcement will come out on Monday at manchester, especialy mentioning IOM.

[devon_guy]

Reading the next generation website, it looks like the BAcon staff are being shafted with their pensions by Flybe now too.

[Hudson Bay]

Well and truly shafted. No reason now for staying. Remember guys 12% of nothing is nothing. Might as well get 8% at easyjet. 8% of £70,000 is a dam site more.

[EGCC4284]

I have been told by a friend who was told by someone at Easy, that they a specifically targeting BA Connect pilots for recruitment ahead of all other applications, so as to try and shaft Flybe as much as possible. How's that for strategy.

[GBALU53]

On a differant note we understand the EMB 195 delivery for the next aircraft is 240 days behind schedule but why and what are we doing if anything?

If this is correct how on earth is the company going to go into the summer programe with this sort of delay with the new aircraft??

Will we servive?? Gloria Gaynor said I will servive but will we??

[ALLMCC]

GBALU53

240 days, that's 8 whole months! - surely that can't be right!

[GBALU53]

Why not 240 days

The company are bring in at least two of the Air Atlantique ATR fleet for the next ten weeks, this would take it to the end of march and the full hopefully changeover over the B.A. Connect deal so that is seventy days to start.

The had a Danish ATR the week before on a weeks lease

When the B.A. Connect deal finishes there could well be a number of Dash Eight 300 operating for a number of weeks after.

Not looking to bright for the new jet jockies at the moment it might be some time before they have ther hands on the third one.

[jethro15]

Story I heard a coupke of weeks ago was that delivery delays to the EMB 195 were now two months due to relocation of the wing jigs. Anyone else heard similar or is this not correct?

jethro
UK and Ireland Airline Fleet Listings
http://www.jethros.i12.com

[flyer55]

Any updated info on the IOM and INV routes to LGW ?

[devon_guy]

Flybe have been on the local news tonight regarding the new owners of the airport. They intimated that AMS frequency could be expanded and that they use SOU to test new routes and subject to them being popular they hope to copy them in EXT within the year. We know DUS is coming soon, be nice if a couple more German cities came as well as somewhere like Prague or Copenhagen.

The new owners are keen to market the airport to northern Europe and the guy from RCA said they were working hard with BE to get this happening. Can't help but think they are putting all their eggs into one basket, why not get another airline to have a base?

[OltonPete]

I notice from Jethro's that two 146-200's have recently gone to Southend
(AW & AY) but AS is still flying in and out of BHX (today in fact) yet it's
time was supposed to be up in December.

Have flybe managed to put back the return of the 146-200's (I think there are two left) and is there any intention to lease in anything other than the ATR's, as previously mentioned?

My concern is with the BHX summer schedule as there is quite a lot of
cross-over with BACON routes and will the axe fall even more than
first anticipated?

OP

[JobsaGoodun]

To my knowledge Flybe now just have the one remaining 146-200 in the fleet. G-JEAS is owned and not leased, hence it still being about.

3 or 4 of the 146-300's are also owned so I guess Flybe will try to work out if there are buyers for these, or arrange for them to be parted out as a last resort. In the interim there is little cost associated to flying these hulls and so providing the operating costs are covered and they can afford the thirsty fuel bills, all is good for Flybe!

[TCAS FAN]

For those like me of advancing years, please keep it simple, when is SOU's first 195 (G-FBEC) due for delivery?

[GBALU53]

DECAS FAN

This is keeping it simple the makers of the wings for the aircraft have changed and this has caused delays to the next EMB195 for Flybe.

The amout of delay so far as mensioned before os at least 240 days which I understand will be more so on the bases it might not be before 2008.

Is that simple enough?

As we know in Aviation things change from week to week and Flybe will want compensation in some way so who knows what will turn up to do some of the planned EMB routes out of Sou this summer

From information passed on there has been a number of ATR aircraft operating for them out of Sou already this year so there must be more to come

[JobsaGoodun]

I think you'll see the next E195 much sooner. Not sure where the 240days has come from.

The new one should be with Flybe within the next couple of months, and is expected in service sometime around the start of the coming summer season.

[GBALU53]

The information came from the horses mouth, meaning the people that fly the aircraft, so make of it what you may.

Is the company not telling the full story to keep calm with in the company during the take over of Connect which is only nine weeks away.

Well we will have to wait and see.

[JobsaGoodun]

From what I can see the two issues are unrelated. The BACon deal has no influence over Embraer deliveries which will come to Flybe irrespective of whether the deal goes through or not, or vice versa.

It's a wind up from whoever told you

[HZ123]

WW statement in todays 'Times' was a bit rich;there will be no disruption to our BA Connect services?

[NickBarnes]

Isn't it this week when the BACON deal will be tied up and the final stage of the new summer routes will be released.

[Railgun]

NickBarnes

BA management have said it is "extremely unlikely that the sale of BA Connect will be concluded before the end of January 2007". Looks like its going to be a dragger boys and girls.

[conradmueller]

Railgun

According to my knowledge it is due on Feb. 1st.

[Hudson Bay]

Yet another delay.

According to Jim French, in his latest statement the deal has hurdles to overcome and depending on the outcome depends whether the deal will go ahead.

The tone of this latest announcement says something is wrong. I would of expected a more upbeat statement than this.

Why is it bmi can go and buy Bmed inside a week yet it takes flybe up to a year? Any clever business heads out there?

[GBALU53]

The way things are going are not looking good at all, with what was ment to be the full take over by the end of March things look doomed.

Some of the summer programmes start in less than eight weeks and if some of the schedules are not out these punters that would have travelled on some of these sectors that are not on sail will now go else where.

As BA rep on the news today said when you lose a punter they might never return.

Take heed J.F you and your task force need to pull you fingers out before they get badly burnt.

[NickBarnes]

It just keeps getting delayed, now it is mid- Febuary, probally be March by the time this deal is done, they must need to get out the rest of the summer schedules very soon.

come on guys:bored:

[Whispering Giant]

Might have something to do with that fact that BA Connects accounts have now been audited by one of the citys major financial institues and they have found to be losing a lot more money than the £6 million declared by WW and the actual figure is closer to £30 Million Mark .
So you can understand why J.F is beeing very cautious about the deal, and not just rushing into it.

[GBALU53]

Why has it taken so long for some of this to come out??.

[skiddyiom]

Whatever the reason for the further delay, it's about time someone let the damn staff know where they stand!!

My house goes on the market today and I am waiting for confirmation of a new job off-island. If they don't do something soon they won't have any staff to transfer to Flybe let alone to anyone taking over the hanger (another Manx Government pipedream!) :{

WW and JF want to stop playing with folks liveliehoods and get on with doing whatever they do for large sums of money! :*

skiddy

[JobsaGoodun]

In fairness skiddy, there is nothing worse than mis-information.

I'm sure that Flybe want to let you know what's happening, but as you said, when it involves peoples lives, they'll want to be sure that they are giving you some concrete info with which to make an informed decision. Until the OFT and various unions have cleared the deal to proceed then nothing can be resolved. It looks like this confirmation will come in mid February, hopefully giving you the info you need.

[NickBarnes]

Just read that BA say that the BACON deal may not be completed untill March:eek:

[GBALU53]

How much longer can this go on?

The travelling public are going else where and the company is loseing out.

The full summer schedules programme must still be on hold or are they in the wings waiting to land but the date of landing all depends on the fuel in them.

The BAcon staff who are still there and the crews are reall getting close to boiling point shall I stay or shall I go.

At the end of the day if Jim and his hench men down west country way don,t get a result soon the discontent will bet a lot worse.

So JIM pull you finger out and sort it out.

[Haven't a clue]

Interesting that BMI, full service airline (well mostly) can buy BMED, also full service, for a chunky sum in cash in what seems to have been about 2 weeks whereas FlyBe (loco) have been trying to do the deal on buying BACon (trying to turn loco but still having a higher cost base than FlyBe) for no cash for over two months now with still no end in sight. This is presumably what happens when you try to do a deal for "free". You simply don't have the war chest to cover those nasty niggles you hadn't thought of but will always keep coming out of the woodwork.

[JobsaGoodun]

Not sure you're right there 'haven't a clue'

To my knowledge BMI intend to run BMed as a separate and independant carrier for the time being. With no changes to anyone's terms and conditions a sale like this can be completed with little or no delay, in essence nothing has changed.

BAConnect's business model is wrong. Period. Flybe clearly do not want to absorb and airline with the losses that BACon is racking up and so changes to employee terms and conditions are required in order to make the combined airline a goer. Understandably, Flybe do not wish to harm their own business in the long term.

[Jamesair]

the OFT (Office of Fair Trading) has approved the takeover of BACON on condition that Flybe allows access to one of its 13 stands at SOU.

[GBALU53]

Well as Noel Edmonds would say to this one GOOD DEAL or BAD DEAL?

So it must be down hill now to sort all the lose ends and get there full summer programme worked out and on the web and selling.

The big question is will they be able to cope with the big change.

[ESCNI]

Still no word on Flybe's Belfast/Liverpool timetable for after the end of March.

Anybody any idea what's the reason for the delay?

[dwlpl]

Looks like its stopping.

Will have to use the EZY service at the weekends.

NSNO

[ESCNI]

Usually do, but it's nice to have an alternative.

[Oshkosh George]

Am I the only one who is thinking that this take-over of Bacon is looking a little shaky? Obviously there must be sticky points to negotiate,and I'm not convinced that fruition is inevitable.

Why give £15 million of your business to BA,when you could just let Bacon close and have free range to fly any of those routes you wanted without competition?
(You would have to be quick though,as other airlines would also have free range!). You would also have jobless crews begging for work at your terms.

Anybody know if pen has been put to paper yet?

[EI-BUD]

I read your post re Why give £15 million of your business to BA,
I understand that BA are to gain 15% shareholding in the new enlarged Flybe/BAconnect business.

Flybe are gaining a whole new raft of services , staff and the withdrawl of BA. Surely you confused 15% with 15Million???

The overall details of the deal were not revealed . But it has been mentioned that BA will sell its shareholding in FLybe when the company goes on the SE.

BA obviously have confidence in Flybe's ability to remove cost from the business and make the new business a profitable one. Clearly JimFrench and his team have achieved alot in the last few years.

[Railgun]

I predict that BA will keep there share holding in flybe and probably increase it as time goes on.

[Oshkosh George]

Quote:
Flybe are gaining a whole new raft of services , staff and the withdrawl of BA. Surely you confused 15% with 15Million???---End quote

You're quite right,I did! My point still stands,however,that the above gains would have come without BA gaining 15% of the business.

[devon_guy]

My dad reckons he read somewhere that Flybe are starting services to Bulgaria from EXT. Is he right?

[NickBarnes]

they said that they were looking at Eastern Europe

[Maude Charlee]

It would make some sense. The E195 has range and payload advantages that the 146 never had, and Bulgaria is a booming budget holiday destination and increasingly popular choice for 2nd home owners. With 2 E195s to fill by the summer out of EXT, a few new routes would be just the job.

[NickBarnes]

From what i have heard the deal will be completed Tomorrow 14th of Feb, does anybody know if this is correct?

[Daza]

My brother who works for BAR at BHX has been told that they will be expected to work now until May. They will be "Taught" to use the Flybe check-in system and work along-side Swissport employees on the ground at BHX, still managed by BAR managers. Very few of the staff were happy to do so! BHX will retain only 5 ER4 from BACON for use on "european scheduled routes along with E195" The fleet of DH8s will be used for domestic and French routes.

Looks like BHX will see a further erosion in served destinations and frequencies.
Daza

[skiddyiom]

The fleet of DH8's won't be used for much at all. The first four will be handed back by the end of July with the last 3 following shortly after.

Precarious times for all of us in this dying company.

skiddy

[tallaonehotel]

Maybe dead would be a better phrase skiddy!

Get out soon fella, save yourself!.

[flyer55]

And what about INV / IOM TO LGW ?

[Smokie]

What about INV/IOM to LGW.:E

[manx crab]

It would be nice to know what is happening to the routes, if only so that people could actually book flights for summer holidays with a tiny bit of confidence that they are actually going to operate or are BACON going to introduce self-drive flights if the deal gets delayed much longer.

Not to worry though I am sure our Dept of Transport has a plan B up its sleeve:E

[GBALU53]

How about the full timetable now the take over is almost there????

Or is it not fully there yet?

Is there more to come out of this mess?

Not only aircraft problems but staff??

[manx crab]

Cynics might say that all this was a plan by BA to have the staff leave of their own accord saving all the associated costs of redundancy etc or it could be there is some major brinkmanship going on here

At the rate it is going is there going to be much left for Flybe to take over?.

[flyer55]

Yeah I meant the two routes into LGW that are served by BA Connect ! Would like to know who is taking these routes over !

[Hudson Bay]

Just been on the news a Flybe Q400 has been in a ground collision at Manchester. Anybody know anymore?

[ESCNI]

Much ado about little?...

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=264361

[Ringwayman]

Latest update on the "next generation" website says that Flybe/BACon are committed to conclude the sale by 28th February.

[GBALU53]

Should it not read the 29th Feb (WORK THAT OUT) on what they might mean.

We will have to wait untill the 1st of March and hear what all has to say on the full signing.

[Daza]

What will be left to pick up after all this indecision? Dozens of flights cancelled at BHX in the next few weeks. BMIBaby already announce more frequencies in direct competition with the merged Flybe.The cancellations say "operational" reasons on the BA website. Many of the flight and cabin crew have left BHX thats the reason why.Many BA staff dont want to work for Flybe it was arrogant of Flybe and BA management to presume that they would too!! Cancelled flights means passengers go to competitors.
What will Flybe have left to take over?:ugh: :ugh:
Daza

[NickBarnes]

They also really need to get those summer schedules out very soon:hmm:

[Ringwayman]

Flybe's already announced increased EDI and GLA services to BHX (9 daily from March 25th).

[Daza]

The press release is there but the flights arn't available to book.
They need to get their act together.
Daza

[JAR]

DAZA
26 Mar 07 BHX - EDI £0.79 (before tax!)

[Agent Oringe]

Word on the Street is, Flybe are stuffed. There are Major problems recruiting Captains for the Dash fleet. Flights are being cancelled and the last two 146's returned to British Aerospace are being recalled/re-leased to cover short fall in Dash capacity. So now the 146 guys will be overloaded even more than they have been already. Don't forget that a lot of the 146 guys are now rated on the 195 and there is a delay on the next 195's arrival, so effectively a crew shortage on the 146 as well.:D
The meltdown has begun.:E

[Daza]

JAR I know that you can book on the present 6 times daily service ex BHX. Flybe in their press release yesterday stated that they will be operating 9 services per day to GLA and EDI. The 3 new services are not yet showing in the system those operated by BMIBaby are.
Daza