FlyBe to acquire BA Connect (Crew thread - no spotters) [Archive]

judge11

3rd Nov 2006, 08:18

This announcement was as predictable as the sun rising tomorrow morning. Congratulatins must (not) go to Buffoon Airways for managing the destruction of what was, only 5 years ago, the major airlines in UK domestic operations namely BRAL/manx and Brymon to which the new owners could hardly manage to play 4th fiddle. The BA Connect venture wasn't necessary in the first place and was a litany of lies, charades and gross mismanagement during its short life. The greatest fool of them all, Evans, - well, I don't know how he will dare to show his face outside the confines of Didsbury.

Those who have stuck with Connect - good luck for the future but I fear you have all been living with heads firmly buried in the sand - the writing was on the wall many years ago. Walsh eradicated Aer Lingus's domestic system and it was almost a cert that he would do the same with BA - and he has.

Looks as though the RJ will live to fight another day but only because the dullards at Waterworld finally realised that a high yield operation out of LCY was feasible and did compliment their Londoncentric view of the universe.

All in all a sad day for the ex employees of Manx, BRAL and Brymon - but it was all so predictable.:{

Sunfish

3rd Nov 2006, 08:21

With the greatest of respect, perhaps a study of the shipping and rail industries might be informative? Consolidation and embuggeration of operating staff have been a feature of the transport industry for what? 200 years?

tiggerific_69

3rd Nov 2006, 08:24

i love the way WW calls it a disposal.that man needs a slap

Sweeper 22

3rd Nov 2006, 08:45

Morning!

Sounds like interesting times ahead for BACon and FlyBE crews, with hopefully a level of security for both. I do feel for the BACon crews, sounds like you really have been p!ssed about over the last while.

I can’t quite get why FlyBE would go for such a deal, other than the business sector, but it reads like good business sense for BA. 15% of £600M is a nice profit for not a lot of work!

Also, how will this effect the floatation of FlyBE? Will it still happen?

Good luck folks, hope it works out.

S22

CaptainProp

3rd Nov 2006, 08:51

I understand that this is a hot and sensitive subject to a lot of you, and that this effects many people, and their families....
However, is this not a good thing, compared to the last 5(?) years or so, that has happend?? BA has been cutting, promising, selling and lying (?) for many years now. They have obviously never had a plan, not a good one anyway, for running regional operations. Looking back it is quite clear that this would happen sooner or later...only sad thing is that it did not happen earlier...
Why? Is it not better to work for a company that is dedicated to the business that they are involved in? BA never was.... Working under the BA parashute you never knew if you would have a job the coming year, under FlyBe it seems, with aviation "standard" anyway, like a stable and secure alternative..right?
I know that there are huge issues in FlyBe when it comes to, for example, the relationship between the company and the union (the staff). Im sure there are many other things that could be improved, but then again show me a company where this is not true...
I think that the people being affected by this could bring in a lot of experience in to Flybe and help building a better company, improving the t&c's etc.

At the end of the day it's money that rules aviation, and any business for that matter. Maybe its easy for an "outsider" to give the advice to look at the good/positive things in this matter...but at the end of the day, being negative will only make things worse for you as an individual, right?

Good luck to all of you!

Standing by for incoming!

/CP

14 loop

3rd Nov 2006, 09:02

If BA ever needed reminding that having all your eggs in one basket was a dangerous policy then surely this summer's chaos that costed BA £100 million is surely that lesson. It is interesting to note that whilst LHR, LGW & STN all suffered, most regional airports were able to 'manage' the disruption without the mass flight cancellations.

BAs withdrawl from the regions seems to have missed this point.

Good luck to everyone at BAcon!

Robertkc

3rd Nov 2006, 09:05

This, first & foremost, is the most important point. BA, or any other company for that matter, is not a charity. := The sale of BACon to FlyBe should be seen by the employees as a good thing (in the medium-long term) as you'll at least be working for a company that is committed to regional ops. BA will, one day, be an exclusive business/first class operator of point to point long-haul flights.

goldeneye

3rd Nov 2006, 09:06

This really did come out of no where. Did not see it coming. BA did not give Connect a chance its not even a year old yet and there offloading it to BE. Mind you there going to keep a stake in the enlarged airline so they may well make more money that way than owning connect outright.

parttimer

3rd Nov 2006, 09:13

And how about all those faithful BAcon crews chucked out of the base at sou just last week. Re-locating their lives in EDI or MAN or BHX, none exactly close by. Hindsight being a wonderous thing what will they do now? be offered jobs back at sou? Put their lives on hold until they know whats going on?????????????????
Mare to say the least.

False Capture

3rd Nov 2006, 09:18

BA expects BAConnect to be sold by Christmas.

BAConnect currently have 10 RJ100s. However, there isn't enough work for all 10 aircraft on the LCY routes so some aircraft will be returned to the lessors early whilst the remaining RJ100s will be based in EDI. British Airways will then set up a new subsidiary to operate the LCY routes.

flyingbug

3rd Nov 2006, 09:31

Transfer Of Undertakings, Protection of Employment.

Thank you

FB

GBALU53

3rd Nov 2006, 09:33

What a suprise to a lot of people, how many BA Connect staff will they keep on must be a big question.

Is it the Dash Fleet and the Emb fleet that will go? if so that is a large amount to sell of in one large chunk

I do agree with the takeover that Bristol will not be part of Flybes plan as Exeter is just down the road and Exeter has a much better WX record although with the more modern aircraft it has not been as bad Wx wise problems at Bristol.

It will take a least six months or more before the true picure will come out but good luck to all concerned.

There will be some competion loss in some areas no doubt but what will be next on the card.

On a crewing issue this would be good news for the Dash crews as an upgrade to a Dash 400 will be cost effective for the company without having to train new recruits.

I understand there has been some crew loses as always at this time of year with the younger ones wanting to fly a 737 or A320.

skianyn vannin

3rd Nov 2006, 09:37

So can anyone enlighten us about FlyBe terms and conditions compared with our own? I suspect they fall short of ours.

Does anyone really believe this will be a TUPE transfer? Why would FlyBe want to create a second tier of terms and conditions superior to those being "enjoyed" by their own pilots. After all, aren't FlyBe also suffering an exodus of pilots?

Now, I must go and update my CV.

flyingbug

3rd Nov 2006, 09:44

Flybe employees have been told the reason for the purchase is threefold:

1. The addition of BA Connect routes offers and opportunity to deploy newly arriving aircraft on existing mature routes, de-risking the business
2. Additional crew will relieve recruitment pressure
3. Additional route network will allow Flybe to develop into difficult to penetrate markets in Europe, including Paris Frankfurt and Milan. This is being done to protect the company.

The sale of the company will be deferred to allow management to focus on the integration.

From a personal point of view, I am pleased that the company appears to have the opportunity to strengthen its position and I hope that this will protect the jobs and future of all crew involved in Flybe and BA Connect.

FB

skianyn vannin

3rd Nov 2006, 09:54

Gaza

3rd Nov 2006, 09:58

you obviously work for FlyBe, so how about giving us some info on terms and conditions? I also understand there is no scheduling agreement in FlyBe, so I can look forward to being dicked around for the rest of my life.

Under TUPE flybe have to honour your existing T&Cs. This information (http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/layer;jsessionid=FLgGSVpXyVxlhjYKgQPzL1XYPB22PvQLl0vpZvHpWyD QMCXX5Lqr!1770131120!1162551428147?r.l2=1074450319&r.l1=1073858787&r.s=tl&topicId=1074459745) will be useful to you.

MaxReheat

3rd Nov 2006, 10:09

Tens of thousands of workers in all industries will tell you that TUPE isn't worth the paper its written on. It can be dodged and got around by the accountants and lawyers to suit the taking-over company. BACon's copper-bottomed T&Cs won't be acceptable to flyBe, IMHO - far too expensive and restricting. Why do you think there has been so much apparent disontent aired by flyBe crews? Nope, looks as if the BA gravy train has hit the buffers for many, alas. Oh, and a Q400 v 146 - no contest - get used to not having to wind up the clockworks every morning.

crewboi83

3rd Nov 2006, 10:14

I dont work for either BAconnect or FlyBE.
I just wanna say good luck to all crew at BACON! It cant be the nicest way to find out, from what i hear you guys were not told about this till u watched BBC this morning.
I hope everything pans out for all the crew, and as much as BA is a compeditor at MAN for my airline its always a shame to see the flag carrier disappear at MAN.
Good luck to you all. :rolleyes:

flyingbug

3rd Nov 2006, 10:15

Hi Flyingbug

you obviously work for FlyBe, so how about giving us some info on terms and conditions? I also understand there is no scheduling agreement in FlyBe, so I can look forward to being dicked around for the rest of my life. Still it must save on printer toner cartridges by issuing blank sheets of paper for rosters!

I'm afraid I can't take a positive view on this sale from my own perspective. As someone who currently enjoys flying a 146, I don't relish the prospect of flying the "fuel efficient and environmentally friendly" Dash 8.

Hi SV,

yes I do, although I'm not management, just a line pilot.
The T&Cs have not been great this summer, to be frank we have had a disrupted summer at times; however the good news is that BALPA big Jim met Jim French on Monday with senior managers and apparently a much more attractive deal is on its way to us - ballot papers and details are being sent to members this week. Don't have the new proposal details yet....................

FB

parkfell

3rd Nov 2006, 10:23

What impact will this have for Inverness crews and ground staff?

:confused:

AirLCY

3rd Nov 2006, 10:37

INV will become Flybe

Its a good move for BA and also for Flybe, its not so great for the BA Connect staff especially those in the HQ most of whom will lose their jobs!:ouch:

Call Established

3rd Nov 2006, 10:49

I can´t believe this has all happened and WW had not even thought about the impact on BA staff canteen in T2 at BHX! :) :) :) :)

cabingal

3rd Nov 2006, 10:50

Do you reckon Bacon cabin crew will be safe? Hope so! Very very underhand how we heard about this through text messages off each other! Very bad! :mad:

bmibaby.com

3rd Nov 2006, 11:33

The only issue I see with BA Connect's cabin crews is the strength of your unions. I know a couple of ex-BACON people who are over at baby now, who said that the unions are so tough at BACON that they would never accept cabin tidies between flights, essentially a staple of the no-frills model. I see the jobs being safe, as flybe are still going to need the crews for all of these flights, as well as for their existing expansion programme, but there will have to be a fundemental mentality change for the crews to adopt to no-frills flying.

I see flybe moving their operations at BHX over to T2 in order to utilise the expanded facilities that have been put in there. T2 fits in with flybe's model of the convenient regional airport, whilst T1 can be something of a schlepp being full of shops, something better suited to charter and longhaul passengers. The press release on BA's website indicates that the regional handling division is not included in the purchase, so what will happen to that I wonder? Also whether flybe might consider aligning their frequent flyer programme with Executive Club, a way of maintaining happy BA customers.

BA have really sold BACON at the right time. With expansion programmes from other low-cost airlines in the regions, the Jungle Jets simply couldn't compete. flybe gives BA a 15% stake in a profitable no-frills regional airline and offloading a continually loss making one - businesswise, it makes the most sense.

markespana

3rd Nov 2006, 11:39

Is David Evans still involved with Ba Connect.If so this was all predicted 4 years ago when they pulled out of their commitment to buying 318´s .If that man makes a penny out of any sellout of Ba in the regions he should be:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: and then:mad: :mad: .If it´s north of the M4 BA are not interested why did´nt they pull out properly years ago it´s like death with 1000 blunt spoons:ugh:

ETOPS

3rd Nov 2006, 11:43

I'm very sorry, but not suprised, to hear this news. I hope FlyBe can get it's plans on the table as soon as poss to help those whose futures are looking uncertain.
Although now a BA mainline pilot, I was MAN based for 11 years. Firstly on BAC 1-11's and after BAR was created I flew regional 737-200's to the very destinations now to be flown by FlyBe. I left for the "golden runways" because I could see, even in the 1990's that BA's heart wasn't in basing crews and aircraft North of Watford. At the time I predicted that the end game was longhaul premium traffic at LHR and every decision they have taken has confirmed that.

To my colleagues in LGW I say - give yourselves 5 years max.

To my friends in BAcon I sincerely hope this works out for you.........

marlowe

3rd Nov 2006, 12:04

One good thing no more Evans and his cronies!! Well unless you are an RJ100 pilot, seriously though how do you guys feel about still being in an operation that he is presumably going to be apart of ? Think he and his management have proved that they cant manage their way out of a paper bag and even having the lucrative LCY routes doesent mean success if the management dont have a a clue how to run it.

flybmi

3rd Nov 2006, 12:17

Will this have any effect on Loganair?

My best wishes to all the BACON crews, good luck! :)

marlowe

3rd Nov 2006, 12:20

Loganair and other franchise operators not affected.

GOLF-INDIA BRAVO

3rd Nov 2006, 12:24

Message to you guys who are affected by this
Hope you all have job on Christmas eve andhope all works out next year
I know it`s not nice finding out second hand about a take over as it happened to me when some of my clients rang me ask if what was going to happen
and I had not a clue of what was to happen later in the day

G-I-B

Ronaldsway Radar

3rd Nov 2006, 12:32

Horrible way to find out, though as said, a lot knew it was going to happen one day or another.

Couple of good friends of mine in IOM got into work this morning to find out their being laid off...and I'm sure there were many many more also in that position.

Thanks BA. :mad:

Good luck to all the crews and staff having to find new jobs / relocate etc. All the best.

Red Snake

3rd Nov 2006, 12:39

It's a shame to see BA disappear from all but LHR (maybe LGW) after so long. As a BRS based pilot, I fear for the future of the BA BRS people as, judging by the press releases, there's a very noticable lack of commitment to the base & all other FlyBe routes from BRS have been dropped in recent months.

And the first I heard of the sell-out was when one of the passengers told me on my flight this morning. Great!

Earthmover

3rd Nov 2006, 12:52

Speaking as one who has been through three major takeover/mergers, you all have my fellow-feeling - on both sides of the fence. It can be ugly - but not always. MaxReheat identifies the core of the issue. The success of TUPE depends entirely on the integrity of the two companies involved - this is from personal (alarming) experience.

And cabingal, my heartfelt sympathy - I heard of my last takeover by text message too - the feeling of disbelief is hard to explain to those who haven't had their lives turned upside-down by a few words on a mobile phone screen.

My very best wishes to all of you - there are lots of us out here who have shared your experience .. and it seems that most of us have survived in the business, some (including me) to advantage. Good luck.

Jaq

3rd Nov 2006, 14:07

There is one positive thing in all this that seems to be getting missed. Flybe are not going to want our incompetent management. Finally we will be rid of the :mad: managers. :D
You know, the ones that said Flybe were a 'Here today, gone tomorrow airline'. That's :ouch: for them.
For me Christmas has come early.:ok:

Noiffsorbuts

3rd Nov 2006, 14:21

Dunno about Christmas coming early. It just might be a case of out of the frying pan into the fire.

On balance (and I know that the devil is in the detail) Id rather take my chances with a company that has some belief in itself and a dynamic management team who are expanding their company.

Our dismal one trick CEO David Evans only knows how to cut, close and give away the best bits of the business.

Heaven knows where BA found him but his ineptitude which has all but brought us to our knees will be sorely unmissed!

cabingal

3rd Nov 2006, 14:23

Thank you Earthmover - very kind, I am putting things into perspective - looks like we will keep our jobs! Just see what happens I suppose! I'm not going to jump ship just yet!

brain fade

3rd Nov 2006, 14:29

Well folks- at least now we know!

Plusses

1. Uncertainty removed.
2. Flybe make money- so
3. Maybe you get to the base you want-and to stay there.
4. Money the same if TUPE honoured (am I correct in thinking Flybe Jet pay similar to BACon??)
5. Shiny new metal coming soon in the shape of the -195's

minusses.
1. No more BA Staff travel?
2. Scheduling agreement will have to fought for.
3. Will ex BACon "jet" people get bumped onto the TP's due Flybe folk being more senior?? This will be the real cruncher.:rolleyes:

3a.If it turns out to be pish you can always leave!:ok:

cabingal

3rd Nov 2006, 14:31

The seniority bit will do my head in cos I am quite senior at Bacon! I'll be gutted about my concessions though!

lookwatchthis

3rd Nov 2006, 14:45

skywaytoheaven

3rd Nov 2006, 15:04

Flybe have ordered 14 E-195 with options for 12. This is surely going to mean not enough seats to even come close to satisfying everybody. Surely alot of Bacon jet jocks are going to have to go Q400, which is fine for some, but i'm sure many will not be happy with the 'downgrade'. Good luck to all.

Noiffsorbuts

3rd Nov 2006, 15:19

Flybe are going to have to go on a very convincing charm offensive or they might just discover that they have acquired a company where everyone is leaving.

Two things.......... staff travel and a naieve hope that we might be absorbed into BA kept many hanging on.

If everyone is to be thrown onto the bottom of their seniority list and demoted off type then forget it.............

Come to think of it.what does it matter to Flybe if a lot of Bacon pilots go? No tupe to worry about and no hassle.

JPjoystick

3rd Nov 2006, 15:24

Couple of good friends of mine in IOM got into work this morning to find out their being laid off...and I'm sure there were many many more also in that position.

RR,Which dept where they in?

trotts

3rd Nov 2006, 15:51

Hi All,

Sorry to hear that BA have treated their staff so poorly with notification - for what it's worth flybe staff only found out on getting into work/returning after a roster this morning, but at least we got a shiny video/letter/handout to look at. Not much detail in them either, lots of questions to be answered and something of a bolt from the blue.

Flybe is a weird thing in itself -the people on the line are great and there is a generally very positive attitude to the day's work. That's the only good bit.

There is no scheduling agreement; in fact, after a year in the company I'm still without a contract I'm willing to sign. Your life aint really your own -we are working, at SOU, 6 day stretches of at least 4 sectors a day, always finishing on a late and starting on an early for 56 hrs off. That means one beer night in 8 -or is it 9? -I'm too knackered to work it out. In Oct I flew over 85 hrs and all standby days were called in.

The Q400 is a hoot - very capable and efficient on paper, especially banknote paper, but a bitch to fly and the flightdeck is an ergonomic slum. Great fun as long as you can let the gotcha's wash over you and have no pride in getting a greaser now and then.

You have little control over the roster; day-off requests are usually ignored and have to be in before you get the relevant invite/appointment and if you don't know when you want your 28 days leave 9 months in advance a nice lady in Exeter decides for you.

April 06's pay deal still is in dispute, although the TP pay is better than BACON's. The membership blew away the last offer - 4% pa for 3 years is a con, and it lacked a scheduling agreement apart from a few minor concessions. 195 course slots are rare to the point of extinction. The management clearly don't give a toss about the staff welfare or morale - good to know we upped the value of their options by 20million last six months though.

And the 3rd PArty handling agents range from OK to lousy.

SO - Were I in BACON I'd be glad of the security, certain for the TP pilots and hopefully for the Jet guys, but I would look at flybe, as sooooo many of us do, as either an employer convenient to a regional airport where you really want to live, or a stepping stone to another job.

There is one more good point, actually, lots of jet operators are developing a real taste for people with Q400 experience!

Gaza

3rd Nov 2006, 16:01

A couple of inadvertent innacuracies have crept in to this thread. Firstly, TUPE, the regulations that protect employees' terms and conditions when a business is transferred, do not apply where a business is transferred by means of share purchase and secondly, even in circumstances where TUPE does apply, pension benefits are expressly excluded from the TUPE regulations.

You are correct to point out that pensions are excluded from TUPE but your first point does not make sense. BA are selling (giving away) BACon. In return BA will receive a 15% share, not 15% of the shares .Therefore the transaction will not be viewed as a share purchase and TUPE will apply.

Red Snake

3rd Nov 2006, 16:04

To the Flybe folk:

Any chance of breakdown of your aircraft type by base? Judging by the press releases, the future for BRS doesn't look good. We're all 145 people since the Dash-8s left, so the future in Flybe looks like a forced base move to a turboprop & I can't believe there'll be many takers. But any more insight would be gratefully received.

TIA, RS

BluffOldSeaDog

3rd Nov 2006, 16:17

Well Trotts, let's see what we can bring to the table then

skianyn vannin

3rd Nov 2006, 16:42

Thankyou trotts for confirming what many of us already think of FlyBe. Its patently obvious that there won't be anything like enough jet seats for those of us already flying BACON 146's and Embraers. I'm pretty sure they will be reserved for the boys at the top of the FlyBe seniority list.

So what are we looking at? Sitting in the RHS of a trash 8? I don't think so. I'm not going to throw away 2500 hours of medium jet experience to go and work for a dead end company.

I don't see that TUPE will work. I'm sure that FlyBe simply can't afford it. And even if we were to be promoted within Flybe, I'm sure their turbo prop Captains pay is little better than what we already pay our jet F/O's.

The only way is out!

The Little Prince

3rd Nov 2006, 16:47

Evans and co, particularly Hutchings, etc, will be nothing but a laughing stock within the industry, I can remember the way PH used to strut around, pompous ASS!!!!! Doubt if he could pass another conversio actually!:}

Ronaldsway Radar

3rd Nov 2006, 17:03

RR,Which dept where they in?

Ones in the hangar, doing the dirty work :}. Only spoke to him briefly so not sure of all the details ie. termination dates. Turns out the other is ok for the moment he's not worrying.

:)

Captain Correlli

3rd Nov 2006, 17:14

Anyone ANY :rolleyes: idea if all the RJs will be kept (for the moment) or if the handback will commence in the NY as planned?:rolleyes:
Please please please can I buy the trainers some drinks before they do the Type Ratings for Hutch, Deac and the Feelan? I'm sure they'll be COMPLETELY fair, hopefully DD will maybe do all of them, and do FOR them the way they did for him!:{

Early days, but anyone any idea if moving to EDI incurs a bond? Imagine it could be a good idea to move up there with this bunch, then tunnel away to Globespan:D

Cornflake

3rd Nov 2006, 17:22

I can just hardly believe this. I have to keep pinching myself. How did we get here from where we were before BA bought us? How could this possibly have happened? How did we get such INCOMPETENT, ILLITERATE, PATHETIC and ARROGANT managers??????? No business skills, no commercial skills, no financial skills, no people skills, and as Phelan demoed, no flying skills either. Truly incredible, if I had read a book about us, I would have said it was ridiculous!!!!! The only only only reason most of us hung around was the FS pension, and the thought that SURELY SURELY SURELY it had to get better some time. What odds were there that it was to be death by a hundred cuts? Two years the effing crunt said, two years to get profitable????? Effing five months or so was all it took; how could we have let it come to this, why why why did we belive them, why we all so effing stupid???????:ugh:
Do I stay, go, trust Flybe, become an ancient FO with another airline, or stay and maybe be seniority listed down to a TP again??
When my son asks if he should think about becoming a pilot - what should I say???:confused:

Holy MOG, I need a drink, no, I need a bottle.......:*

AHA2218

3rd Nov 2006, 17:29

Well, after speaking to a few collegues the rumours about BA are true:eek:
BRAL & Brymon used to have 8 sectors a day to LHR, the main share holder was a major Insurance Company, who sold their share to BA for an estimated £125 million.
How much would BAA have sold these routes for?
Cheaper to buy the airline than buy the sectors then put a 747 on the sector than a 146 :ooh:

Think the first to go will be IOM, can't really see them keeping the hangar as they have EXE and BHX.

The hangar at BHX which BA Connect has acquired is allegedly sub contacted from BA mainline.

BA Connect own very few aircraft, the lease on the RJ's is due to expire in the next year or so.

Whats going to happen to the MAN - JFK route, technically that's a BACON owned sector.

Rumour has it that a major banking business is behind the EDI - LCY route, wonder how they will react :confused:

Don't forget good old Mr. W Walsh sitting in his lovely office at Waterside,
You need two people to shake hands, a little thought for him :\

Not a happy bunny :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Soon to be an ex-employee of BA Disconnect

Human Factor

3rd Nov 2006, 17:35

MAN-JFK will stay with BA mainline, crewed from LHR.

LCY-EDI will almost certainly become a subsidiary as I can't see Mainline reopening the Scottish Base. However if A318s appear, they may have to (or have a direct report to LCY for the LHR crews - there is already an equivalent agreement for LHR crews to report to LGW.)

In trim

3rd Nov 2006, 17:49

Good luck to all at BACON. Hope things work out okay.

5+ years ago we had Brymon, Manx / BRAL, CityFlyer, etc. Not perfect, but in general they were headed by management teams who were totally focussed on their markets in a minute level of detail, and were successful as a result.

As soon as BA started dismantling those 'focussed' management teams, the days were numbered. The London-centric approach was always going to prevail in the end.

:ugh:

flat-tire

3rd Nov 2006, 18:06

Maybe Flybe will let us fold our checklists……..:ugh:

brain fade

3rd Nov 2006, 18:12

Flybe have paid for todays deal with 15% of their own company.

What have they got in return?

Some planes...........and some planes leases:rolleyes:
Some routes........... these are free
Some engineering and ground stuff.....they already have most of what they'll need.
loads of pilots...........which they need for the planes they've ordered.

anything else?

waaf

3rd Nov 2006, 18:12

Loganair must be next to go, as the only airline left flying around in turboprops in BA colours the writing must surely be on the wall. Also CEO Jim Camerons decision to 'move on' this week coming on the back of dismal recent performance by LC and Scortt Griers promise to replace SAAB 340 with 50 seat aircraft and BA Connect going to have a few spare Dash 8's....its all a bit too cosy for comfort.

Toots1252

3rd Nov 2006, 18:18

What is happening to the people in BA Connect?

We will be discussing this planned share sale with the trade unions that represent all of the employees at BA Connect.

The main point as far as BA Connect employees are concerned is that this is a share sale so the company remains as it is now. The only exception to that is that at or around the time of the share sale BA Plc will be moving the RJ aircraft, their pilots and and the LCY line engineers into a new wholly owned subsidiary of BA Plc, to serve LCY routes. There will also be some opportunities for BA Connect cabin crew and head office staff to join this new LCY subsidiary.

FLIGHT CREW: All flight crew will remain employed by BA Connect Ltd and the new owner has indicated that they wish to retain all BA Connect flight crew. Flybe will operate over 70 aircraft in the new organisation and has further growth plans. Flybe believe that this will create long term employment opportunities with fast track promotion to command an option for many. Flybe is confident that over 30 BA Connect First Officers will be promoted to Commanders within the first year.

As the RJ fleet of aircraft does not form part of the sale, RJ pilots will move to the new London City business and the proposal for the RJ flight crew is that they will be based in Edinburgh.
Discussions will take place with those staff and their representatives to consider the personal impact of this.

CABIN CREW: All cabin crew will remain employed by BA Connect and again the new owner has indicated that they wish to retain all BA Connect cabin crew. However, there will be a requirement for cabin crew in the new LCY business. It is envisaged there will be options for some current BA Connect cabin crew to move to the new LCY business.

In the short term, it would be unrealistic to assume that there will be no job losses as a result of this deal as there are areas of overlap between the two companies.

marlowe

3rd Nov 2006, 18:46

Toots1252 i am guessing you hold a management position in BACON from the way you have phrased your opening paragraph? So if i am reading you right are you saying that even though i would be flying around on a FLYBE aircraft i would still be employed by BA CONNECT LTD????

tiggerific_69

3rd Nov 2006, 19:02

i belive Toots has copied and pasted from the press releases there

RMC

3rd Nov 2006, 19:09

Dot Cotton was asked "What about the Sched Agreemt"
Response - "You can forget about that... far too expensive"
"There speaks a management pilot"
Reponse - "There speaks a pilot who wants to keep his job"
"No Dot if you want to keep your job you don't go back to treating people like dirt because then most of the pilots will leave and you deffo won't have a job"
The SA is not a contractual issue and therefore has no protection.
Have seen the video by the Head of FBe and there is no mistaking his tone. Makes the point strongly that we have similar size businessess but Fly Be's profit much greater...therefore significant cost to come out of BACON to make it work.
Other info is - that it is classed as a share purchase
- The RJs and 767 will move to the mother ship (we will be keeping the 146 though...lucky us).
CV time
Flat Tire - LOL and its the first time I have laughed today

marlowe

3rd Nov 2006, 19:19

So am i assuming right that even though flybe and bacon effectivly become one, the ex bacon employees would still be employed by bacon ltd???? Or am i missing something?(probably!!!)

tiggerific_69

3rd Nov 2006, 19:26

its all a bit confusing at the moment,eventually the name will change over and say Flybe on our contracts (like when it changed from bacx to bacon) id like to think they will tell us more in the near future,but you know what this bunch of :mad: are like.
ive just been talking to a friend of mine who works for flybe and is ext based.he was seriously considering his future with the company,but now this is all going ahead,he is feeling quite positive.
i know its come as a big shock to all of us,and that it is hard to believe,but you have to think of it this way:
Flybe have really saved our BACON even if it does mean BA Disconnected, but at the end of the day, most of us will still have jobs, whereas if the company had just gone to the slaughterhouse,we'd be well and truly :mad:!

oapilot

3rd Nov 2006, 19:45

Sorry, nothing new to add, just fancied a rant:ugh:

One would guess that the statement that all Flight Crew are to remain employed by BA Connect Ltd implies that our pay at least will be frozen until it falls into line with whatever you would earn if you were a Flybe employee doing whatever job you end up with.:confused:

However, the sticking point is going to be: do we get a relocation package and pay protection to move base from a jet to a prop? Flybe make money yes, but thats going to be an awful lot of wonga out of the bottom line. Unless of course dear Uncle Willie and London Airways are going to stump up the cash as a smoother (and who is going to carry on paying for Easterns Jetstreams....:bored:)

Lots of questions and if the last few years are anything to go by, lots of vague and contradictory answers will be forthcoming from our "leaders" over the next few weeks.

Time to get behind BALPA I think, boys and girls.

Anyway, must go. The play-dough models are ready, just need to find the knitting needles...

chiglet

3rd Nov 2006, 19:55

AlphaCharlie,
As a humble ATCr working at MAN..I don't think that I am going to be very busy in the "near" future....No a/c....
GLA - 2 x Q400
EDI - 3 x Q400
GCI - 1 x 146, 1 x Q400
JER - 1 x 146, 1 x Q400
NWI - 2 x Q400
SOU - 3 x 146, 5 x Q400
BHX - 1 x 195, 3 x 146,
BHD - 2 x 146, 4 x Q400
EXT - 1 x 146, 4 x Q400
watp,iktch

Megaton

3rd Nov 2006, 19:57

And no more shortcuts for BACON pilots into Mainline. Hope all goes well for all concerned.

boredcounter

3rd Nov 2006, 21:02

As a bone of contention, I worked for a BA franchise for 11 years out of BHX. When times got hard at fortress LHR, we saw pax numbers fall off, then BAR at BHX saw the same.................. I guess this deal will seal the end of British Airways serving British Airports. Appppppppauling.

To think in 94, BA were gonna take over the World, had inductions to explain the plans, the franchise policies worldwide. Sorry BACON boys and girls, you are excluded, but boy, how the mighty have fallen.

First the Eastern deal, now this, sorry give the flag to Virgin and force BA to 'trade as'. The so called National Airline is no longer interested in the Nation, surely they are no longer the National Airline.

AlphaCharlie

3rd Nov 2006, 21:10

Chiglet ... someone had asked for CURRENT distribution of flybe a/c ... i.e today pre merger! MAN will shortly be Flybe's biggest base in a blink.

Daza

3rd Nov 2006, 21:53

BHX will be the biggest Flybe base when the two fleets are combined
Daza

BluffOldSeaDog

3rd Nov 2006, 22:08

And no more shortcuts for BACON pilots into Mainline. Hope all goes well for all concerned.

What short-cuts are you implying? The only concession we got even as a subsidiary was to be guaranteed an interview, WOW

biddedout

3rd Nov 2006, 22:29

An interview in which you were asked by a spotty yoof SFO why you wanted to work for BA. Cheeky ba2*1)ds.

biddedout

3rd Nov 2006, 22:33

We must not forget the many friendly faces around the networks who will also be affected. Half the work done by the MAN, FRA, GLA etc BA ground-staff is for BACON. Will Flybe be requiring their services?

I doubt it.

One or two of them may be living in th past, but overall, a fantastic bunch of people to work with. Hope it works out reasonably well for them too.

bar rattler

3rd Nov 2006, 22:58

If BRS looks like the end of the road for flybacon (or pigs might fly???!) does that suggest an EZY expansion to you?

Talking of which, why not stick in an application for EZY? They will pay you more than flybacon.

Seriously though, good luck to everyone involved I can only sympathise with the disgraceful way in which the news was announced.

Bat Fastard

3rd Nov 2006, 23:39

Just spent a year at MAN working for a well known BA franchise. Sorry to hear that this has kicked off so soon as you were all promised a couple of years to get Connect up and running profitably. However how will you all cope with the the withdrawal of your brand new BA flight deck uniforms? Some of you haven't even got them yet but it didn't stop the rest from automatically behaving in the time honoured arrogant manner as soon as you put them on. I know I'll take a lot of stick for saying that but as one of those on the receiving end I know it's true. Now you still have jobs but you need to realise who you will be working for.

Violet Garlic

4th Nov 2006, 00:25

Those individuals' attitudes are unfortunate, BF.However,there was no choice as to the Company uniform issue.Most thought it was a gesture of ,dare I say,*good will*,and the fact that BACX (sic) was coming out of a bad patch and that BA was prepared to invest.

jongeman

4th Nov 2006, 00:36

I don't know what some of you lot are complaining about. I jumped ship 4 years ago, it was easy, and it was the best thing I ever did.

The Blade

4th Nov 2006, 00:50

STOP PRESS

In a cunning attempt to confuse and confound BA's imminent sale of its "loss making" arm BA Connect the Isle of Man Government has , with the tacit and wholehearted agreement of the United Nations, agreed to change its Sovereign name to THE ISLE OF LONDON.

The name transition will take place at 2359 November 5th 2006.

Coincidentally the Capital, Douglas, will be known forthwith as Hampstead-by-the-Sea.

Ronaldsway Airport will also be known as Croydon-on-the-Sands

An unnamed Goverment spokesman commented that such a move is expected to provide a massive investment from BA as its current business strategy appears to be prerequisite for all business caches centred on the London named airports where BA has a presence.

When asked for a comment on this bold move a spokesperson in Mr William Walsh's management team was quoted as "Where the hell is the Isle of Man?".

Further comment from the Isle of Man Goverment was unavailable as the spokesperson was feeding his geese.

Spoof Reuters

tallaonehotel

4th Nov 2006, 00:59

Have you been drinking Okells by any chance?

Violet Garlic

4th Nov 2006, 01:02

and all stated in the accent of Lilly Savage.

GBALU53

4th Nov 2006, 06:56

tiggerific_69

4th Nov 2006, 07:05

WW come to the stations?!?! dont be stupid,he hasnt got the balls to do that.gutless little :mad:

biddedout

4th Nov 2006, 07:46

Can anyone at Flybe let us know how things work there?

Do you do seniority? Bacon does, but then it has to since there is no other system in place to manage crew other than a staff number. The current managers couldn't be trusted to run anything other than a seniority system and even then they have to be watched. The only way to progress in this company is to try and get into the right lodge and of course being one of Her Majesty's finest helps. Relevant experience qualifications and a proven track record count for nothing. Management jobs are never advertised, they just happen to certain people. :yuk:

Please tell us it is different at Flybe or can we expect more of the same?

puddle-jumper2

4th Nov 2006, 08:21

To all in Ba Connect,

I know how you are feeling at the moment.
13 years ago I also found out, via the BBC, that Dan-Air had been sold to BA for one pound and that BA were laying off most of the Dan-Air pilots, offering them no more than statutory redundancy ! At the time I had a 2 year old and a 2 week old:{ to provide for and the house we were in negotiations to buy obviously could not be completed. Six months after that I joined FlyBe - they were the hardest 6 months of my life.

Do I hold any ill feeling toward BA crews ? Of course not - as for BA management, well that's different matter. We are all pawns in a big game - trying to make ends meet and pay the mortgage.

The only way I can help you at the moment is to try and answer some of your questions - to be perfectly honest none of us at FlyBe saw this one coming and I, too, only found out yesterday. There are many FlyBe pilots asking questions, which at this stage are not being answered.

FlyBe are not the best of companies but not the worst either. One of the most important things is it's constantly changing - yesterdays being the largest so far. The staff are all great to work with - you actually have fun when you go to work.:D
We do actually have a schedule agreement, it does offer some protection but to be honest it wouldn't be worth me giving you the details yet because we have been fighting to improve it, and our salaries, since April and there is a new one in the pipe line.

The Dash 8 is the fleet at the moment that needs pilots. There is a definite shortage of Dash Capt's - the starting salary for Capt's is around £45K, F/O's start at £27K.
The 146's are being replaced by the EMB195 as we speak, so as you can appreciate seats on the left seat of the 195 will be very slim as there is already a long waiting list and as for the right seat this too has a waiting list but not as long. Capt's start at £51K and F/O's about £31K. All these salaries are about to increase by approx. 5% or else !!:}

That's all I have time for at present but I will try and answer any further questions later today.

Good luck with whatever you decide in the future,:ok:

PJ2

biddedout

4th Nov 2006, 08:40

Yes, we better get ready for the inevitable management claims that it was the excessive salaries and payrises(not true) and the scheduling agreement which caused the failure if Bacon. B*****ks. BA managers and their total lack of understanding of anything regional caused the downfall of Bacon. A lot of sensible responsible thought went into putting it together and agreement was written from a point of view of managing lifestyle. Some things were even added to give the company more flexibility than it had before, but these were never used correctly. Nothing in it would have hampered a company which could manage a stable operation with reasonable crewing levels.

Please don't fall for any of the bull that's likely to be heading your way. One of our managers was in the crewroom yesterday banging on about Flybe not wanting anything to do with our scheduling agreement. What a dipstick. If he thinks that going back to the way in which BRAL used to manage resources is a good thing then we are all doomed.

Noiffsorbuts

4th Nov 2006, 08:43

Thanks PJ 2.

What have you been told about seniority? I assume this governs your bidding and promotion?

When we combined BRAL and Brymon it was done on a date of joining basis more or less. That was considered fair and broadly worked.

Different people have different priorities but if it is intended that we should all be bolted to the bottom with even those who have been working for 15 years plus going below your most recent arrival then there are hoardes of us who will leave.

What are your thoughts on this?

Pin Head

4th Nov 2006, 08:52

new seniority lists, balpa trying to do their best, managment on the defence - the joy of a takeover.

Glad I left:ok: . Enjoy the fun people!!!!!!!!!

jordan

4th Nov 2006, 08:53

What everyone is forgetting in all these arguments is the passenger. When deciding to fly we all have perceptions on the best value for money, and no matter how much money is thrown at BAConnect's advertising very few people believe it. Because it's tarnished by big BA's corporate image of quality, style etc - which doesn't work on short-haul. It had no chance of success with the two letters "BA" incorporated in the name.
The change to Flybe is the best thing to happen to BA Connect:
1. The alternative would have been closure - for certain
2. Other carriers would have then fought to pick up the scraps - very messy and no guarantee of employment
3.Flybe have guaranteed employment for all flight crew. How many other businesses that have gone through traumas like this have made such guarantees?
Most posts display a lot of arrogance and pomposity - a very poor reflection on a group of people that should show more intelligence!

fly-dj

4th Nov 2006, 09:14

Noiffsorbuts

We have been told very little of the fine detail of how this is going to happen. Flybe does use seniority for promotion and base transfers etc. We do not bid for routes or work though.

Although we got a letter in the mail + some posters and video in the crew rooms yesterday telling us about the purchase we have been given little more information than is available on the flybe or BA Website’s.

As others have said we are currently chronically short of Q400 crews especially captains, the E195 is however another story with our own 146 fleet in the process of being retired, and a similar number of 195’s on order, there are already a lot of people in the line for both RHS and LHS.

Could be good for both outfits, could be a total mess, only time will tell but so far the reaction i found in the crewroom yesterday seemed positive. The BAcon dash bods should feel right at home anyway as both the Flybe turboprop fleet manager and our new training manager are both ex BAcon.

Whispermode

4th Nov 2006, 09:20

Just to add t PJ2 posting; I'm sure we are going to see a big increase in the Captain Q400 salary as flybe is desperately short of suitable candidates to put in the LHS of the new aircraft. For some time our CC has been using the comparison of what BA Connect pays for a 50 seat 22 ton a/c as against our 78 seat 29 ton Q400. I believe they are finally seeing the light. Flying the Q400 isn't all doom and gloom, although it does land like a shopping trolly coming off a cliff, and it has a fair set of toys in a modern flightdeck. Just because the 'fan' is on the outside of the engine nacelle, and slower, oh, and doesn't fly as high and .......:sad:

Mike Mercury

4th Nov 2006, 09:24

The key willbe to have a positive attitude and call the glass half full. Face it, finally getting rid of our management, whether or not they danced to Waterside's tune is a huge step forward. I've lost track of how many times over the last ten years or so I've been told JE/BE/FlyBe would go bust, and quite the opposite always happened. We should be very chuffed that we are again part of a proper regional outfit - mind you, let's just all hope that our management stay with the EDI - LCY setup. Anyone any news?
Oh, and the other big question is the pension. I take it FlyBe's is different, and I rather think TUPE doesn't include pension provision. Anyone any comment?

LonBA

4th Nov 2006, 10:04

This must have been going on behind the scenes for some time and not a leak out at all but to not be proffessional about it until the staff read about many hours before management what does that say about the people at the top looking after our jods????:sad: :sad:

What is next to come out of this?? I and many others must think there could be something else in this story to come out will WW come to each station and give a presentation of the situation.

I can't think of any company that discusses its disposition and acquisition plans before actually doing them (unless it is clear they plan to get rid of a unit).

Not saying anything about BACON probably was more about trying to find a willing buyer and deciding whether or not to continue with the operations versus the benefits/downsides of selling.

BACON has never been profitable (even before being rebranded). It was given 2 years to get profitable (stated publicly).

The writing was on the wall.

flat-tire

4th Nov 2006, 10:54

Will this whole thing mean that for Christmas I will get a pay cut and the chance to fly the Dash for several years? I have read the Q and A’s but they seem to lead me to believe that we will still be working for BA Connect Ltd. and our contracts will still be upheld. Could anyone shed some light on this subject?

Capt. Horrendous

4th Nov 2006, 10:58

Overall, it's gotta be good news. Job security and working beneath a commercial team who know their business.

The big issue over the coming months will be the integration of the two workforces, with seniority lists and terms and conditions being potential hot potatos.

There's gonna be a lot of hard work ahead for both company councils, probably more than they will be able to do without some serious resources from BALPA HQ.

Exciting and interesting times ahead methinks.

susoal

4th Nov 2006, 12:48

I can't think of any company that discusses its disposition and acquisition plans before actually doing them (unless it is clear they plan to get rid of a unit).

Not saying anything about BACON probably was more about trying to find a willing buyer and deciding whether or not to continue with the operations versus the benefits/downsides of selling.

BACON has never been profitable (even before being rebranded). It was given 2 years to get profitable (stated publicly).

The writing was on the wall.
I truly hope it does not happen to you, see how you feel if it does...:\

Cornflake

4th Nov 2006, 13:01

I have a horrendous feeling about the seniority lists - if (no, don't laugh!!!) BACON had bought Flybe, would YOU give up your place on the list, and maybe your course or Emb 170 command to one of the new pilots? I doubt it. You'd say, with some justification that they should be grateful for a job.:{
Similarly the salaries etc. I believe we're paid more, quite a bit more. How can that possibly continue? Flybe not un-naturally will not want their new acquisition to lose money. It will be all change I think,but anything to escape the dead hand of BA.
What I really want is to be a fly on the wall of Hutchings / Deacon / Phelan's next interview.
They may just all be about to discover that it really DOES pay to be nice to people on the way up - 'cos you may meet them on the way down.....and OUT!:D

fedup_withba

4th Nov 2006, 13:16

Sorry to barge into this thread but just had to fight the corner of the ground staff in the regions. We have been told pretty much nothing about the sale, only that it has been agreed. I work in EDI and Bacon make up pretty much of 50% of our workload. All we have been told is that serviceair may take on bacon in EDI and that we will be TUPE'd accross, nothing more nothing less !!! Will they take us all ? dont know, what if we dont want to work for a handling agent ? dont know. Will there be severence/redundancy offered ? doubt it. Can we relocate/redeploy ? doubt it !! Thanks :mad: WW !!!

Cornflake

4th Nov 2006, 13:33

FLYBE TO BECOME LARGEST REGIONAL AIRLINE IN EUROPE

Flybe announces that it has reached agreement in principle with British Airways whereby it will acquire British Airways’ BA Connect regional airline business, subject to a number of conditions precedent including the completion of due diligence.

The proposed acquisition will create an enlarged business with over £600m in revenues and carrying nearly 10 million passengers. The business will be operated in line with the successful Flybe business model concentrating on short haul domestic and European major city markets.

BA will ensure that the new business has sufficient funding in order to achieve its growth targets and the transition out of the current BA Connect fleet. In return it will acquire a 15% stake in the new business.

The acquisition (which does not include BA Connect’s London City or Manchester / JFK routes) will significantly increase Flybe’s route network both in the UK and continental Europe making Flybe Europe’s largest regional airline.

The new larger Flybe will have the following dimensions:
159 Routes, including 35 new routes
10 Million Passengers
£600m in revenues
Europes largest regional airline
Operating from 23 UK and 36 European airports
70 aircraft by the end of 2007
Whilst reinforcing Flybe’s domestic UK presence, the acquisition will also result in an increase in the proportion of Flybe’s business passengers with new routes to key European commercial centres including Paris, Düsseldorf, Frankfurt and Milan.

Flybe plans to accelerate its current fleet renewal programme and will phase out all of the existing BA Connect fleet as soon as possible. The current Flybe £1.2bn investment programme in Bombardier Q400 and Embraer 195 aircraft will be complete by 2009. At that time Flybe will have a fleet of 82 aircraft, which will be one of the youngest and most environmentally sensitive fleets in the world. In line with its environment policy Flybe will by then have reduced fuel consumption by over 50% per seat.

The acquisition comes as Flybe announces its strongest ever summer trading period, resulting in an operating profit of £20.5 million* for the six months to 30th September 2006, which compares to an operating profit of £12.4 million* in the same period on 2005.

This summer’s result follows a solid performance in the financial year 2005/2006 when the business delivered operating profits, before exceptionals, of £4.8 million whilst pursuing a focused strategy of major route expansion to position the business for long term profit growth. The decision was also taken to write down the asset value of its BAE 146 Aircraft which will be retired over the next 12 months by taking a £6.4 million exceptional charge.

With its strategic platform in place, and the business delivering the promised strong trading results, Flybe is well positioned to take the next step in its evolution, by purchasing BA Connect.

The Board of Flybe has taken the decision that, in the event of the successful acquisition of BA Connect, any change to the current ownership structure should be deferred, to allow for the management team time to focus fully on the integration of the enlarged business.

Commenting on the proposed acquisition, Jim French, Chairman and Chief Executive of Flybe, stated:

“Through this acquisition we are seeking to build a bigger, stronger and even more defensible Flybe.

The Flybe business model concentrates on domestic and European city markets and has been incredibly successful over the last 4 years. This acquisition will allow us to bring our growth plans forward by two years.

The new enlarged Flybe should provide strong employment prospects for operational staff in BA Connect. Once the acquisition is completed Flybe will seek to replace BA Connects existing fleet with the fuel-efficient and environmentally friendly Bombardier Q400 and Embraer 195.

Flybe is proudly headquartered in, and serves the UK regions. We believe this announcement today means that the UK regions will now have their own strong and well financed airline, designed to support the needs of the buoyant regions of the UK, in line with the Government White Paper of 2003.

This acquisition will make Flybe the largest regional airline in Europe and one of the largest in the UK by any measurement. Across Europe more consumers will benefit from Flybe’s efficient and friendly service at a price, which provides outstanding value.”

MaxReheat

4th Nov 2006, 13:47

Cornflake, I think you are quite correct. The previous trauma, the BA acquisition of BRAL & Brymon, was a merger of two ostensibly similar companies and it was only right that a degree of equality was applied. The current situation is a takeover, the BACON girls and boys are the taken-over and are hardly in a position to dictate terms.:{

brain fade

4th Nov 2006, 14:00

Well, as far as I can tell, the only thing of any value that Flybe gets out of this deal, is the aircrew.

If a deal isn't struck that suits people (and I don't mean every whim is pandered to) then I personally won't be coming!

There's more to life than BACon & Flybe. I don't really mind coming over to Flybe- but I'm not bending over so they can give me a good shafting!:eek:

There will be a heck of a lot of negotiating over the next few months. Pensions, TUPE, seniority, basing, commands, jet or TP etc. etc.

NOTHING is a done deal yet.

Of course there is also the intra-BACon question of who stays with the RJ's.
Quite apart from the issue of 'how desirable' this is. It may be that a very junior pilot on the RJ fleet gets to 'stay' with 'BACon' while a very senior ERJ-145 pilot has to leave for FLYbe. **** knows how this will be reconciled.

alosaurus

4th Nov 2006, 14:20

Jordan - living up to you're name (very shallow / big t*t).
As a matter of fact you clearly do not understand the costs associated with closure..it was never a financially realistic option BA had.
With regard for it being the best thing that has ever happened to BA Connect that is an "arrogant and pompus" statement.
Don't you dare assume that just because we wear a BA uniform (which is actually the cheapest bit of cloth I have ever put on) we have an attitude problem.Most of the 600 pilots are great boys and girls. If you have had a bad experience with one or two then you are either unfortunate or you deserve it.
If you have anything further on to say on the subject PM me and we will have a chat without the cloak of anonymity.

Noiffsorbuts

4th Nov 2006, 14:25

BF you are absolutely right. I am prepared to be open minded about all this but as to whether or not I go elsewhere (and there are plenty of jobs out there guys) will depend about the detail. From waht I can see Flybe are goingto have to take some major strides towards our Ts and Cs and a proper scheduling agreement (which is in everyone's interests) else I am going to sling my hook.

If I were Flybe management Id be going into charm overdrive to win our hearts and minds, cos we have had it up to our necks with bullying cretins and are not going to take it all over again.

As to the seniority thing, people are going to have to be pragmatic with give and take on both sides.

One thing is for certain and that is that Flybe boys and girls are going to benefit from the pressure to move their Ts and Cs ahead.

This could be win win or it could turn into a total fiasco....

brain fade

4th Nov 2006, 14:44

Noifs

Yep. Flybe could turn out OK.

However I'm going to see about some 'insurance' just in case they fail to come up with something sensible.

The reason they are short of experienced people is because experienced people can choose where to work. And for most of them that DOES NOT mean Flybe!

Believe me, this deal is a LONG way from 'done'.

Now, where's my CV?:ok:

flyingbug

4th Nov 2006, 14:55

Hello Noifsorbuts,

I agree with you.

There is no reason why BACON pilots or Flybe pilots should be had-over during this merger/takeover. What Flybe pilots would certainly fight over would be a list that stops the prospect of progression onto the 195 or RH seat of the Q400 due to shouts of "we already have jet experience".
I am sure that, with thoughtful management of the merger, these issues can be addressed fairly. We see.........

FB

fredtheanorak

4th Nov 2006, 15:42

Hello Noifsorbuts,

I agree with you.

There is no reason why BACON pilots or Flybe pilots should be had-over during this merger (and I use the word merger because I hope thats what it is). A pragmatic approach is required re the seniority list, which must be merged fairly; it is neither the BACON or Flybe pilots fault that the lists will be ammended. Perhaps the fairest way would be no 1 Flybe senior pilot, then No 1 Bacon pilot, No2 Flybe, No 2 Bacon etc etc. What Flybe pilots would certainly fight over would be a list that stops the prospect of progression onto the 195 or RH seat of the Q400 due to shouts of "we already have jet experience".
I am sure that, with thoughtful management of the merger, these issues can be addressed fairly. We see.........

FB
Sorry, man but dream on.:{ This is no merger it's a takeover. FlyBe are in charge and they'll look after their own first. They'll want to make shure the newco keeps the flyBe not the BA culture so guys, sorry, but don't dream of equal treatment. :uhoh: They'll use you if they need you and you toe the line. Fail on either and it's out.. :sad: Thats L:ife -to the victor the spoils and all that..

cabingal

4th Nov 2006, 15:57

Any ideas who will crew the MAN - JFK route?

Off Stand

4th Nov 2006, 16:03

The two rumours are WWLHR or Single fleet LGW taking a 777.

Sky God

4th Nov 2006, 16:15

I've been a Barbie Boy for a number of years, and I've very much enjoyed flying in the Barbie World. I'm expecting, and will put up with, a certain degree of loss of conditions, etc following this takeover. However, there is a point at which I will simply hand back my (still in mint condition) uniform and I.D. and go and do something else. I won't be bending over for anyone.

My thoughts go out to the boys and girls around the BA Connect network who will inevitably have their lives and careers mucked around with.

Whispermode

4th Nov 2006, 16:26

Someone asked about pensions. At flybe the Co pays 12% against 4% from the employee. Co contribution starts at 4% then 8% and to 12% after 3 years. Couldn't say what would happen with the ex-BRAL (?) FS scheme.

On salaries our T/P (Q400) scales are higher than BACON's as are our 146 scales v 145. The contentious bit is Q400v145 and I think that is going to be addressed very shortly.

skianyn vannin

4th Nov 2006, 16:40

Lets face it T and C's are going to be the criticial issue here. No BACON jet pilot who ends up flying a FlyBe trash 8 is going to accept your companies turbo prop salaries. Its just too big a backward step.

Many people stayed with CitiExpress/BACON purely for the final salary pension scheme. Now that has disappeared the floodgates will open once again.

After all, why work your nuts off for what FlyBe offer when you can got to easyJet, work the same amount on a real aircraft and earn shed loads more money?

I suspect that the number of BACON jet pilots who transfer to FlyBe will be much lower than they were hoping for.

Chesty Morgan

4th Nov 2006, 16:43

Just a bit of general stuff for all those concerned.

Latest rumour heard today - Q400 salary will be 90% of jet salary, obviously subject to a ballot in the latest pay deal, yes the one that has been ongoing for 9 months! And as of next year will be the same as jet salary.

I stress that this is a rumour but following on from the CEO's letter last week concerning retention of Q400 crew may hold a bit of water.

The Q400 isn't a bad ship, all the toys up the front, bags of performance, fun and challenging to fly. I don't miss the 146 at all.

The feeling from the flight deck concerning seniority, and this is just a general sweep, is that BAcon crew should join at the bottom. I think this is understandable as there are guys who've done their time in the RHS and/or Q400 and are ready for a command or fleet change and they don't want this taken away from them. However, I heard today that a possibility is to merge the seniority of both lists using DOJ.

This is all pretty much hearsay and I'll leave you to work out if there's any truth in it, I don't know either way, just passing on what I've heard.

Good luck to all concerned.

arelix

4th Nov 2006, 16:47

Fred,

"Sorry, man but dream on. This is no merger it's a takeover. FlyBe are in charge and they'll look after their own first. "

Yea, that's what we thought at Manx when we tookover Loganair, ...........unfortunately we were wrong too.

Bikerpilot

4th Nov 2006, 17:12

Cornflake : Well said comment about being nice to people on the way up, but you'll find that these senior guys will have had a back door into mainline agreed a while back. They'll disappear into the woodwork.

False Capture

4th Nov 2006, 17:13

Well, as far as I can tell, the only thing of any value that Flybe gets out of this deal, is the aircrew.
Brainfade,
The main thing Flybe gets is customers. Instead of competing with BA Connect on similar routes, they will soon have a captive market and they can then increase their fares. This results in an increase in both passenger numbers and yields, which in itself results in bigger profits.

This is a business opportunity for Flybe, it's not simply a case of the directors buying their Flight Operations department 400 experienced pilots and some discounted aircraft leases.

Seniority will be a big issue. My concern for the BA Connect pilots is that this is a take-over. When CityFlyer was taken-over by BA, a number of CityFlyer pilots wanted a merged seniority list with BA. However, following legal advice they were told that BA did not have to do this as it wasn't a merger it was a take-over.

Good luck to everyone in BACon and Flybe.

Planter

4th Nov 2006, 17:20

Forget it.
There are other airlines out there. Why gamble with your future.
I'm off to a BHX baby interview.
A jet job with loads of prospects. :ok:

Noiffsorbuts

4th Nov 2006, 18:08

False Capture. What the company may be able to do legally is one question. What it will take to retain over fifty percent of BACON pilots who, to a man, are considering their career options elsewhere is another thing.

It may technically be a take over, but from where I am sitting, Flybe is just doubling its size. It is not a case of just tucking a small group of planes and pilots into the company. It is a huge root and branch expansion.

The project is dead in the water if it is approached on the basis that we will take any crap and be glad of it. If the attitude "To the Victor the spoils" prevails I am quite certain that we will all be out of here.

Dash-7 lover

4th Nov 2006, 18:33

- TUPE will NOT apply as the deal with FLYBE is a ''Share Capital Deal'' ie Transfer by Share Takeover...when the company shares are sold to the new shareholders, there is no transfer of the business.

- Also BA Connect redundancy policy of double statutory is 'non-contractual' so when the company is sold by 31st December I believe the FLYBE redundancy policy applies. I know all the crew will be taken on but there will be duplication in other areas so people will be redundant. I've scanned everything to try and find FLYBE's redundancy policy but if someone could PM me.... would appreciate it!

- BA Connect staff are now classed as internal applicants with Mainline until 31st December..... not sure how this applies to aircrew.....

There is some concern as to whether FLYBE have got the gusto to take on all of this and whether they've have bitten off more than they can chew. For all our sakes, FLYBE and BA Connect, I pray it all works out but what happens when FLYBE is floated......BA increases the 15% stake to a buy-out and thank all for doing a better job of streamlining and cutting costs...

One other point. Local Westcountry news stated on Friday that FLYBE are not happy with the sale of EXT airport! Is there anything to stop them getting a compensation payout from Devon County Council and moving lock stock and barrel into BA Connect accommodation/hangars located in BHX and MAN???

Staff meetings this coming week should clarify a few more things as there are more questions than answers!!!

BusterHot

4th Nov 2006, 20:32

Firstly, I'm sorry that you've all been shafted like this.

Secondly, I'm sure most of my collegues will join me in wishing you all the best and for those that choose to join us will welcome you with open arms; at least we might stand a chance of having a bit of a life with more pilots on the books.

For those of you that don't want to join us, good luck to you. Just remember:

Easy and Ryan ARE looking for pilots, but preference will be given to A320 series/B737 qualified pilots, the younger the better. It also takes months to be given an interview.

The recruiting window for the Charter Airlines is probably closed until next summer and anyway you'll be in the RHS for years.

Anywhere else, you take your chance with every other wannabee and 5000 hrs on a 146 isn't necessarily going to get you into Virgin or Emirates any quicker. Furthermore, the upheaval in your family life might just not be worth it. You'll also be in the RHS for years.

Flybe may not be the greatest, but at least they've said they're going to give you a job. Maybe you need to draw several deep breaths and consider the future calmly and without paying too much attention to the b!"£$%^& that all too often fills these pages.

Whatever you decide to do, best wishes to you all.

RMC

4th Nov 2006, 21:22

BH - You sound like a management pilot.

Lucky to have a job does not wash anymore. Either the combined company has decent terms and conditions (and yes we will probably lose some of the more farcical disruption payments) or it will end up with far fewer pig pilots than it thought. Then the company will find itself lucky to employ pilots....the 145s etc still have to be flown for the next 15 months until the leases expire...checkout the cost of disposing of them before then (BALPA have all the details).

Interesting link comparing company vital statistics.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/80/airline_data/200605/04_1_All_Scheduled_Services_Table.pdf

BusterHot

4th Nov 2006, 22:11

RMC

No, I'm not a management pilot. Just a normal line pilot that's been f"£$%^ about as much as most.

I'm not sure what you mean by "pig" - I'm new to this regional stuff. Do you mean 146? Flybe doesn't need 146 pilots, it needs Q400 pilots, and lots of them. If all the jet pilots walk, I guess they'll just operate the routes they can, ie the ones that are profitable, and bin the rest.

In the future it's not going to be a combined company. It's going to be Flybe. What the T's and C's end up like is anyones guess - good I hope. But in the end that largely depends on how the 2 CC's negociate; ours on how you guys are absorbed and yours to cut the best deal for ex BA Connect pilots. A thankless task as there will always be someone out there that'll accuse them of not having their interests at heart.

I'm sure everyone in BA Connect wishes they'd been able to stay with what they had and the company had gone from strength to strength. However, WW decided that wasn't going to be and you all got screwed. Flybe's a business and they can be ruthless if need be. Ultimately, whatever the final outcome is, you can bet your bottom dollar that it'll benefit them, and not necessarily you and me.

Best Regards,

BH

dogsbody2006

4th Nov 2006, 22:33

ahhhhh! you poor poor pilots! you have such a hard time! yeah as if! count yourself lucky your not ground staff......From Dan Air to crappy BAR contracts handling a BA mainline service then BAX then BACON then at the end goodbye seeya.....looks likes the end of little inv.All i can say is good luck getting any sort of service from circus air as they will be the only handling company at inv and from what i can see in the past few years it`s not going ta be a good one......:ok: GOOD LUCK to all the cabin crew at inv hope you all have a job at the end of the day cos i`m sure us peeps on the ground will be walking soon.I`ll miss my cuppa at 0630 at -10 de-icing G-OINV......:)

boredcounter

4th Nov 2006, 23:30

'Forget it.
There are other airlines out there. Why gamble with your future.
I'm off to a BHX baby interview.
A jet job with loads of prospects.'
Unless they choose to keep Mainline BMI and sell, merge or just plain give away baby:ugh: or both :ugh: :ugh:
Something has got to give at that one too.

Binder

5th Nov 2006, 05:31

Planter,

If Baby has got 'loads of prospects'; How come so many Baby pilots appear to be looking elsewhere?

There are too many airlines chasing the same pax to the same destinations, especially in the Midlands.

Something has gotta give!

Binder

skysod

5th Nov 2006, 08:10

From where I stand, the only thing that FLYBE are getting out of this deal is a pool of trained up pilots. So you can guarantee that all we've heard so far is the GOOD news in order to prevent the stampede for the door!
Personally, I'm not gonna hang around to see if with a bit of luck I might just possibly still be flying a jet in 6 months time.
My advice to my colleagues at BACON is get out while there's jobs out there!

susoal

5th Nov 2006, 09:16

Whether it will apply or not is just your opinion, Dash 7 lover, and the share transaction may or may not be relevant in this case; Unless you happen to be an employment tribunal chairman, it might be fairer if you dont present opinions as facts; leave that for the tribunal. - The routes formerly flown by BACon will be flown by Flybe - that sounds like a transfer of undertaking to me, irrespective of share dealings. There seems to be a bit of wishful thinking amongst some Flybe pilots here that BACon pilots will have to be happy with what they're given and are firmly held below present Flybe pilots.

If the terms of BACon pilots are degraded in the transfer, I would strongly suggest seeking the services of BALPA or IPAs legal services, and if necessary seek enforcement at a tribunal.

Unfortunately, like or not I think Dash 7 Lover is correct, that is a fact of law not an opinion, although time will tell who is right ir wrong.
I am not going to speculate here, mainly because I am not holding a cristal ball in my hands and I have NO IDEA what the future is holding for the two companies, but I want to wish the wonderful people of BAcon at MAN good luck in their future endeavours. I have never work with such good bunch.

To the 146 guys in MAN, thanks a lot for making this job fun...I am not longer staying at BAcon, but I will remember you all...

Take care and truly hope everything works well for you all....

And good look dealing with BALPA.......could be tricky
:)

tiggerific_69

5th Nov 2006, 09:59

fred,thumper has replied to your post.

so does anyone have any idea about whether it will actually be a TUPE transfer or not?the letter we received from the company yesterday is confusing,BA Connect will still exist and we will still be employed by them,so will there be a time when eventually we have to sign over to Flybe?

Planter

5th Nov 2006, 10:03

To the doubters out there.
Just because flybe is "expanding" you don't imagine baby getting back into it's cot do you?
Baby is gonna be 12 aircraft by the end of next year in BHX. It's got a brilliant identity and is favourite with the public.
The aircraft are 737. How that compares with the dash/emb is obvious.
I'm heading for baby, I've had enough nonsense and speculation.
I'm heading for 'relative' safety. :D

Planter

Noiffsorbuts

5th Nov 2006, 10:19

so far as all this TUPE/share sale etc.stuff is concerned someone who knows about these things explained it to me very simply.

Flybe is buying (ha ha! should have said been paid to take) all the share capital of BAcon.

So immediately after the transfer our legal employer remains exactly the same and all the contracts and agreements we have in place with BAcon have to be honoured.....pay, terms and conditions etc. Non contractual things like staff travel etc are a different matter.

at some stage in the (near I suspect) future Flybe will want to integrate the business totally into their operation and give us new contracts with new terms and conditions including a new seniority order where both groups are fully integrated. Clearly the terms of those new contracts will be something keenly negotiated by our Balpa reps, but I understnd that tupe WILL APPLY when this integration process takes place as it is the business and undertaking of BAcon which is THEN being transferred to Flybe.

Therefore Flybe cannot just tear up our Bacon contracts and expect us to sign up to lesser terms without facing the full wrath of employment tribunals and the courts.

As a group standing together within Balpa BAcon pilots actualy are in a position to significantly influence the terms that are offered as the law does give us significant protection.

I am sure that Flybe big shots will be reading this. At the moment we are mostly prepared to be open minded but Id say that you have a very short time within which to make a good first impression, because from what I hear just about everyone is putting out CVs elsewhere.

We have been lied to so much and bull****ted to so much that every one of us can spot dishonesty and bull from a mile. Whatever you do, give it to us straight or you'll get the instant and terminal disrespect
that is enjoyed by our David Evans and his fellow jokers.above all give us your main man to talk to, not (intending no insult) one of his sidekicks.
FACT

nitefiter

5th Nov 2006, 10:22

In terms of LCC,s baby havnt got out of the pram yet let alone get back in it.
Im glad you used the word "relative" because in the current climate no one around here feels safe.

tiggerific_69

5th Nov 2006, 10:26

thanks for that Noiffs

ivor toolbox

5th Nov 2006, 11:44

Well as I see it,and when all's said and done it doesn't look like I'll be keeping my job come next March, this has to be considered a 'hostile' manoevre,(when I studied Economics, 'twas de riguer to announce bad news on a Friday and good news on a Monday).

Now according to the crib sheet on t'intranet, we will still be employed by BA Connect, not Flybe.

I surmise that BA Connect will become BA Connect T/a (trading as) a Flybe company. This means there will be no need for things like common seniority lists' or redundancy packages,as current BA Connect T&C will apply. This will last until the current fleet have gone, then, maybe you may get offered an interview with Flybe, which is the same as current practice n'est pas?

IMHO this is all being done to avoid TUPE, but, anyway all that would have to be claimed is that the changes were for Economic,Technical or Organisational reasons....and with no planes to fly ..or fix.. last one out please feed the cat and cancel the milk.

More TUPE info here

http://www.cipd.co.uk/subjects/emplaw/tupe/tupe.htm?IsSrchRes=1

ttfn

Dash-7 lover

5th Nov 2006, 16:16

MidnightCruiser - Im not an expert in industrial law but I am a staff rep now responsible for finding 40 of my tearful and stunned colleagues, including myself, employment in one form or another with whoever. I know this is a pilot forum and I'm not a pilot but I thought I would share some info that I've come across and spent all weekend researching as my phone's been ringing off the hook.

We we're all aware that there would be an end to this in one form or another but just not so soon. THE PLAN - MAKE MONEY/SOLD OFF or CLOSED DOWN - that was it!

Final note - there is a BCCG (BA Connect Consultative Group) meeting with WW on Tue 7th along with representatives from all the Unions and management to thrash out the finer points of what this means for ALL.

OE-HBB

5th Nov 2006, 16:38

MidnightCruiser - Im not an expert in industrial law but I am a staff rep now responsible for finding 40 of my tearful and stunned colleagues,

Final note - there is a BCCG (BA Connect Consultative Group) meeting with WW on Tue 7th along with representatives from all the Unions and management to thrash out the finer points of what this means for ALL.

Fella, I was you the last time this happen to you... 40 Redundenceys(SP) on your head is one of the worst things that happned to me. so much anguish and upset all on YOUR plate... I hope you get more support than I did... :{

I crashed my car one morning after a night shift which i was hurt enough to HAVE to stay away from it all (quacks orders) and I believe that had I not the whole 40 people losing there jobs thing would of probably killed me. :eek:
Make sure you have some one else who can share YOUR problems with, dont keep it inside like it did, it ruined me and my life for a year - depression wasnt the word :*

I know that you have one or two individuals with you who played this game with me last time, dont go down with out a fight... even if the "managers" answer every question you pose with a question....:ugh: :ugh:

I hope that the unions do better with you than they did us. I dont think that I actually made any difference to the proceedings, just made life harder for myself. and made the upper management look like they were doing the right thing.:yuk:

I wish you, "the team in your broom cupoboard" the guy girls out in the open plan and every one else that connected to that place I once loved!! :ok: :ok: the very best of luck!

PS... I still have the Horse!!! :O :O :O

BB

tiggerific_69

5th Nov 2006, 16:51

Dash, i hope you'll let us all know the outcome of tuesday's meeting with WW

angelorange

5th Nov 2006, 17:03

According to FT today: "BA Connect has a workforce of 1900. Jim French, Flybe CEO said there would be "a couple of hundred job losses""

However, they seem to see the deal as postive overall with Flybe doubling it's turnover to £600 million and greatly increasing market share at birmingham and manchester. IPO of Flybe will now be delayed till at least Summer 2008 and not before amalgamation of the two airlines.

Article goes on to describe how Flybe has made profit where BAcon did not....

It seems unlikely there will be any pilot redundancies.

All the best to those involved

Captain Correlli

5th Nov 2006, 17:22

When Manx first took Loganair over, LC pilots all went to the bottom of the list and stayed there. There was all the same hot air about moving to other jobs, however, then, as now, the numbers didn't add up. There are jobs about to be sure, but not hundreds of them, not to mention the geography and family lives of people concerned. It was much much later, (rightly or wrongly) when Brymon came along, and Logy and Brymon people filled the BALPA CC (again, rightly or wrongly, cos the Manxies could have stood but didn't) that a deal joining the seniority lists was sorted which was fair to everyone except the perception of the Manxies. (Understandably)
In this case though, all you have to do is consider what YOU would think if you were about to lose a place on an Emb 190 course, or a move to the LHS, both with attendant money.......or even if such a move suddenly changed from being a year or so away to being off the radar - turkeys do NOT vote for Xmas. What we must be careful of not shifting all the angst, the bitterness, the righteous indignation about sold down the river, (with or without our crap 'designer' uniforms) onto Flybe. They have the whip hand, and they will not give up their own Ts and Cs anymore than Manx did to begin with. To spout rubbish about everyone going off to find another job is just that that, RUBBISH! Otherwise as we all well know, we would have done that two, three, four years ago when the ineptitude of the Evans/DLF/Hutchings team became apparent. Spare athought for the BALPA guys and girls. Insisting on unrealistic demands won't help their best efforts. Spare athought for Flybe - in due course their senior management and pilots will be meeting us, are we really going to behave like spoilt kids whose playground is closing, or are we going to at least try to behave like professionals. This is the real world guys, and we've been in Regional Aviation to see this happen - a lot! So let's wake up, smell the coffee, and accept this is a much better deal than WW closing the outfit down. It has been inevitable since we were bought. Flybe has GOT to be a step forward, and while there may be plenty of jobs out there, there are also plenty of wannabees seeking their first step into airline jobs. Good luck to the ones who try to leave - I also remember the ones who ran out the dorr shouting hurrah who were subsequently chopped, and tried to come back with their tails between their legs. I have to say the Flybe option looks much more attractive than being a 10 airplane operation wholly owned but not integrated into BA. Particularly as it will be top-heavy with PH etc, good god, what a prospect. I am buying into the Flybe game with both hands!:D

..............and it may be energy better spent sympathising and supporting all our admin and ops and engineering colleagues who may not quite have the luxury of the options we are being offered!

RMC

5th Nov 2006, 18:35

BH, Hadn't thought about the 146..."pig pilots come from an airline called BACON". We should all be aiming for Flybe to give the kind of stability we have enjoyed to all its flight crew. The one thing we saw from our mainline pilots was that solidarity brings results.

Bacon Slicer

5th Nov 2006, 18:59

Well the BACON SLICER forecasted much of this,- many of you dismissed what I said and likened my posts to half empty glasses rather than half full glasses of wine! So I was right. Correctly managed a BA low cost/Regional airline could have been a major player from 2000 onwards, allowing GO to prosper would maybe have stopped FR/EASY/Baby in their tracks but that did not happen, a successful GO could have absorbed the BACX regional element and produced a major European mid to low cost player. Oh dear. What a complete mess it has turned out to be despite the efforts of some truly professional operators both landside and airside – they never listen to us as we are only pilots.

However you all should rest assured you chaps/ girls will be welcomed into one of Britain’s most progressive business and I firmly believe Jim French will deliver on his promises. You are quite lucky really as Walsh would have simply closed the airline next year anyway, trashed the airline with corporate spin, dumped the planes and made hundreds redundant.
Congratulations to Captain Corelli – (read above), he has the right attitude! However many BACON Types will have to adapt to a huge culture change, I hope you all can and it will not be easy after all this time.

No more silly disruption payments
No scheduling agreement that stunts the business
No more BAR element
No more BA worldwide travel
No more confirmed Business travel
No more 2 or 3 sector days
No more expensive BA infrastructure
No egomaniac TRE/IRS’s in the sim
No more delaying flights for headset wipes for the Captain for instance! You know who!

Instead you will find a very different culture at FlyBe-

Yes- allows you to take a sensible amount of fuel
Yes -does not leave the crews worried about what will appear on the digital flight monitoring system.
Yes- no uniform in the sim!
Yes - lets you feel part of a progressive company
Yes- no more career driven ex (failed) pilots in management positions like Hutchings / Deacon / Phelan who all thinks Waterside beckons. Not.

And the best thing ever – you don’t have to wear those silly hats anymore!!!!!!!!

Have fun flying again- you will.

Welcome to commercial aviation!

Captain Bacon Slicer retired.

tiggerific_69

5th Nov 2006, 19:27

Dont forget delaying flights for full fat milk too!!!:eek:

EGCC4284

5th Nov 2006, 19:55

Captain Correlli said

there are also plenty of wannabees seeking their first step into airline jobs.

You are so correct on this one.

I understand for someone who has not been with BA Connect very long, this is good news. But for those who have been in the RHS or LHS of a 145, some concern about what they are going to be flying in the near future and how much are they going to be paid for doing so.

For those who have been with BA Connect for 12 months or so on the RHS of a Dash and were hoping to jump across to a shiny Barbie jet and a £13000 pay rise, they have to realise that at least they have not just lost their jobs and that are plenty of wannabes wishing they were in their shoes right now.

Sorry if this seems a bit blunt.

Those that my thoughts are with most are all the office staff at Didsbury, the BA Connect engineers, the push back crews and all those dispatchers who are in a far more uncertain situation. Flybe's aircraft will need pilots and cabin crew so you will have a breathing space to look for another job if it doesn't suit many.

I am not a pilot yet but an observer from the ramp.

fmgc

5th Nov 2006, 20:46

No scheduling agreement that stunts the business

How about "No Scheduling Agreement" so you wont have a home life?

Scheduling Agreements are good for everybody.

BluffOldSeaDog

5th Nov 2006, 20:53

Loosing staff travel can be accepted, but loosing our scheduling argreement is something else entirely

Tandemrotor

5th Nov 2006, 20:56

Bacon Slicer

Excellent contribution!

You do make me laugh! You are too stupid to see the irony in your own posts!

rest assured you chaps/ girls will be welcomed into one of Britain’s most progressive business
You are quite lucky really
No scheduling agreement that stunts the business
No more BA worldwide travel
No more confirmed Business travel

Yes- no uniform in the sim! WOW, how progressive is that!!!

Do me a favour you coward, and wind your neck in before you give any more of my colleagues, and friends any more good news!!!

puddle-jumper2

5th Nov 2006, 20:58

There is a schedule agreement, it's not the best but is getting better.

HOVIS

5th Nov 2006, 21:25

"The routes formerly flown by BACon will be flown by Flybe - that sounds like a transfer of undertaking to me.."

It wasn't when BACX took over all the BAR routes. Theres was no TUPE there.:mad:

AHA2218

5th Nov 2006, 21:38

Anyone heard any news on the engineering side?

Tandemrotor

5th Nov 2006, 21:45

Actually HOVIS, I think you may be incorrect.

I believe the cabin crew at least, were protected for exactly two years.

Dash-7 lover

5th Nov 2006, 22:41

AHA2218.

All I can say is wait for the meeting Tue but even then we won't have all the answers. As I've said to my colleagues, go straight to your line manager with your aims and aspirations and take concerns to your staff rep to be raised asap.

Bacon Slicer

5th Nov 2006, 23:10

Tandemrotor, dave

My whole point about what I say is "commercial Aviation" i.e. you have to make money. BACX/BACON is constructed so that it is not possible. By culture, by remit, by definition. I am no coward, I have first hand exposure to both organisations - FlyBe is not perfect but is a very viable business unlike the awful flea ridden BA lapdog that is BACON. Lots of good people work at BACON -things will change soon for the better for them and the business. At least they will know where they are as opposed to the situation of constant limbo that BA PLC has held them in for so long! No more and no less.

The good news Tandemrotor is that you have the "news"

HairyYellowButt

5th Nov 2006, 23:40

Yes- allows you to take a sensible amount of fuel
Yes -does not leave the crews worried about what will appear on the digital flight monitoring system.
Yes- no uniform in the sim!
Yes - lets you feel part of a progressive company
Yes- no more career driven ex (failed) pilots in management positions
And the best thing ever – you don’t have to wear those silly hats anymore!!!!!!!!

Bacon Slicer isn't an exception. Over the last 2 years most of the high calibre pilots in BACon have found better jobs elsewhere. As a result, Flybe will inherit a lot of BACon's odd-balls.;)

Megaton

6th Nov 2006, 04:52

Just as I was leaving FlyBE, a certain ex-BACX manager was trying to reduce the amount of fuel that was carried. Don't know how far he got with that plan! Shame realy because tankering for multi-sector trips was the only way you had any hope of completing a 6 sector day with 25 minute turnrounds on time.

IIRC FlyBE's flight deck monitoring system was bought from BA but is used in a more punitive fashion without the benefit of SESMA reps and BALPA to soften the blow.

Roster stability? You're having a laugh!

Good luck.

Cuillin

6th Nov 2006, 07:36

Just for info (from an outsider) but I am pretty sure Air UK Leisure pilots were able to keep their seniority when they were taken over by Air 2000 (First Choice) some years ago.

The argument from BALPA was that Leisure didn't go bust - they were bought out - so why should pilots (who had no control over it) have their careers severely affected by it? Wasn't such good news for Air 2000 crews but that was the downside of their management buying a solvent company.

It all sounds very similar.

PS.
Jim French is probably aware of this as he was, in a previous life, employed by Air UK.

jonseagull

6th Nov 2006, 09:18

When UK liesure was integrated into Air 2000 the seniority lists were merged dependent on the relevant size of the two companies. Practically this meant 4 Air 2000 pilots for every one Liesure pilot. Thus the impact on Air 2000 crews was minimised and it retained relative seniority for everyone. If you where half way up either list you where still half way up the "new" airline list.
No takeover is ever completely amicable but this was as good as it gets !
As for TUPE, we at Air 2 inherited Liesures 20 year pay scale and got ourselves a union!

Single Spey

6th Nov 2006, 09:32

Aren't seniority lists now illegal as they are a form of age discrimination?

pebbles4308

6th Nov 2006, 09:37

Hi everyone

Dont mean to put a dampner on the whole Flybe thing!! but if you can get out and get another job now i take it.... During the summer season i worked 200 hour months many people did 65hour weeks we do a lot of 6day weeks with six sector days, we always worked to our maximum and minimum rest!! its totally exausting many crew are trying to get out at the moment as its hard to have a life and work :{ :{ .(we also clean cabin on turnarounds when away from base except on flights over 1hr 30min)

We have just got union reg which we had a formal vote across all bases as Flybe refused to give us reg straight away, they kept on calling new crew into the office saying its really bad to have a union-what kind of co does that!!! 93% voted yes!!! we need a union as rules and laws get broken every day.

Average pay for a junior is around £1100 a month and senior £1400.

Good luck to all of you guys out there i hope all goes well for you.

100above

6th Nov 2006, 09:39

I only wish we could submit a question for Evans's Q & A list on the BAConnect Intranet site. Given that he and his team have rubbished Jersey/British European/flybe at every staff forum I have been to (we dont believe their figures, the numbers dont stack up, their cash is running out...etc) I am intrigued as to why suddenly this basket case company now saddled with our supposedly loss making airline and our unsuitable fleet is now the best thing since sliced bread. My question is David - were you lying through your teeth then, or are you lying to us now ? How this inept individual stayed in post I will never know. 2 lean, mean profitable regional airlines trashed by mismanagement, waste (touring rosters ????, multiple nightstops, taxis here there and everywhere), inability to respond to changing market conditions until it was too late and letting go profitable operations (eg PLH-LGW to Southwest, ABZ-LSI to Loganair), the list is endless. BA - we didnt deserve what you did to us and you sure as hell didnt deserve the great people you messed around. To those of us at the pointy end and our fellow crew members in the cabin, this will be hard, but flybe at least have a grasp of what it takes to run a regional airline. They have done what CitiExpress should have done and might have achieved if we had the right management in place. To our colleagues like the ground staff at BRS and many others throughout the network who are soon to be out of a job, my heart goes out to you.

L337

6th Nov 2006, 10:04

I was based in the regions with BA, at BHX, for 10 years. I watched it go from an efficient, happy profitable operation. To a loss making, desperately unhappy place, in a few short years.

The mystery to me is why it happened. But an even greater mystery is why the architects of that total disaster have been promoted and continue to prosper at LHR mainline.

So whilst you did not deserve BA, BA does not deserve these people either. And what is echoed over and over again in these pages, and other threads is the utter mediocrity of BA managers.

God help us.

BAe146s make me cry

6th Nov 2006, 10:09

As per our staff meetings at Exeter, NO redundancies are planned.
I'm certain in the next 3+ months, the forthcoming changes won't
suit all and I know a few of you won't be able to adapt readily
for various reasons.

I am employed by FlyBe (not management) but I do hope that the joining of FlyBe & BACON benefits all - staff, customers & the regions we serve.

I can appreciate the history of mismanagement within BA (I was a
victim of it too) but I think now's a good time to leave that behind.

Best wishes to all concerned for the future

BAe146??:{ :{

Dash-7 lover

6th Nov 2006, 11:50

Thinking last night that I would out money on the fact that within 5 years Flybe will be a BA franchise!

WW is having his arse felt over the pension deficit and recent terror losses and also fleet renewal and needs to be seen to be doing something by the shareholders. The pressure is on to do something quickly. BA will never give up the regions in the long term. It's just cheaper for them to hand it all to FLYBE for the chopping and shaving and reforming! Short term pain for long term gain. It won't take alot of paint to change it to FLYBA.....why the 15% stake.....?

Cyrano

6th Nov 2006, 13:34

Thinking last night that I would out money on the fact that within 5 years Flybe will be a BA franchise!
But why? :confused:

FlyBE doesn't fly into Heathrow and is unlikely to do so in any foreseeable future - it's not part of their model. What then would induce flyBE to agree to hand a % of all their revenue to BA in exchange for the chance to throw away the flyBE brand and all the marketing £££ that's gone into it in the regions? What does flyBE get? No, sorry - don't see that happening at all.

fmgc

6th Nov 2006, 14:07

Have to agree with that, can't see why FlyBe would need to become a franchise.

Their Brand is strong enough now that it doesn't need BA or BA Ticketing.

FlyBe's market share must now be fantastic in the regional sector.

brain fade

6th Nov 2006, 14:43

100Above

I agree with your post.
Speaking as a worker;

We are betrayed!

That £108m write down on 'BAConnect' is really the write down on BAR, whose gigantic losses are still the stuff of legend.

We've been used as a vehicle to sort out BAR and now that that task is complete, we've been chopped.

BRAL was profitable. Brymon was too. Add BRAL/Brymon to BAR? Shambles!

If I see WW in a bar, I'll kick his c*nt in!

ATIS

6th Nov 2006, 14:52

For those of you sweating about Staff Travel, I'm ex Flybe and I found that Staff travel at Flybe was one of the best around. Except for BA and VS employees

Don't know what you guys get at BACON but at Flybe it was generally
ID90/95's on loads of carriers as these deals were inherited from the Jersey European days and their interline agreements. Carriers I used to use were AF, EK, BA and VS, that pretty much covers most of the planet.

Regarding Flybe salaries well thats a whole new ball game. Good luck to you all.

tallaonehotel

6th Nov 2006, 14:55

Shafted is a better term.....
Nothing came out of the management forum today by all accounts, we await flybe's management team to visit the bases.
All I want for Christmas santa is a job to pay the bills.

Human Factor

6th Nov 2006, 15:35

Aren't seniority lists now illegal as they are a form of age discrimination?

Not if it's based upon experience and there are some younger people who are more senior than older people. There is an inherent risk of thread creep though....;)

wings level

6th Nov 2006, 15:40

The reason for the 15% is that FlyBe can't afford / will not pay BA for BACON, therefore they have taken a share in FlyBe that will be redeamed when FlyBe goes on the stock market next year. Give now and get paid later when it is worth something.

FlyBe have gained several hundred flight deck crew, many rated on the Dash, all of BACONs routes and slots. All the BACON aircraft will go, but at who's expence? Kind of solves your crewing problems in one go.

What does BA get? Disposes of BACON and actually gets paid for it, looks good for BA's shareholders

BluffOldSeaDog

6th Nov 2006, 16:07

For those of you sweating about Staff Travel, I'm ex Flybe and I found that Staff travel at Flybe was one of the best around. Except for BA and VS employees
Don't know what you guys get at BACON but at Flybe it was generally
ID90/95's on loads of carriers as these deals were inherited from the Jersey European days and their interline agreements. Carriers I used to use were AF, EK, BA and VS, that pretty much covers most of the planet.

We get (got) unlimited ID90s & ID80s after 6months employment. One ID100 after 7years employment and for LHS 1 confirmed "J (club) class" ID100, both per year.

In all honesty it's one of the very few things I'll miss if we loose it all

tiggerific_69

6th Nov 2006, 16:18

100above and brain fade, very well said :D :D :D

Bacon Slicer

6th Nov 2006, 20:30

What an awful mess!

Thank god the best people to rescue BACX/Bacon have stepped in. The Atmosphere/culture at BACON would have killed it eventually. Lots of really good BACON people can move ahead in this takeover, however some Muppet's will remain and Exeter WILL rub these idiots out eventually, they ain't stupid despite coming from Devon!.

You all at least deserve a face to face with WW in say BHX or MAN - demand it as part of your farewell deal! - invite those nice people from
Didsbury as well to the party. What a ball you could all have.

Like somebody posted a day or two ago - how could PH,DD,CP present themselves at an interview for anything more
than a MaCDonalds drive-Through!

Every Dog has it's day! Good luck chaps.:8

p.s ALSO - No more silly hats to wear - brill!

Sky God

7th Nov 2006, 09:13

Having had the opportunity in the past to chat to the ‘hatless’ fellows at FLY BE I’ve been put under the impression that they work staggering long days/weeks without the rewards of a Ryanair. Perhaps I’ve just been speaking to a grumpy few – it would be nice to get a proper idea of the work pattern at our new owners. So come on Hatless Chappies give us an idea of your roster on the forum – that’s if you have a roster FLY BE sticks to.

And, hey, Brain Dead! Keep your hands off WW. He’s mine. Might just have to wake up the Gimp.

Riker

7th Nov 2006, 13:08

I would expect that Ryanair and Easy will continue to hire in droves into the future - perhaps Bacon and Flybe pilots who qualify in terms of hours or applicable jet time (Barbie or 146 time - I understand not as valuable as 737 or A320 time) should apply and then move on... Why stay if you could move on? Let the junior pilots with no jet time or just FO time progress and put up with the uncertainty and low pay.

Excluding the desire to live at a remote outstation or non-Easy/Ryan hub, why would someone wish to stay at Flybe long term when other opportunities at fast-growing LCCs exist?

AlphaCharlie

7th Nov 2006, 15:35

Sample roster:

4 on - 1 off (36 hours not a minute more) - 3 on - 2 off (56 hours and not a minute more) - 4 on - 1 off - 5 on - 2 off - 5 on - 2 off

Start early, finish on a late with minimum time off as per the current scheduling agreement.

Latest pay offer (yes the one started negotiating on back in Jan 06 for the year Apr 06 - Mar 07) was received from BALPA today ... errrr I think they are having a laugh, please someone tell me its a joke right ... Guys? Anybody?

The Little Prince

7th Nov 2006, 15:40

Just a thought. I left BACON of my own free will, and chose Flybe nearly a year ago. I gave up a seniority number which was actually quite high. I have a net salary cut, no jet, but a life again. Yes, I work harder than at BACON, but I ENJOY it. The guys and gals are just as professional, just as much fun, and the management - well, a profit of 21 mil versus a loss of 6 mil = difference of 27 mil over the same six month period. We must be doing something right.
Now, along come all my old mates - and you all know who you are. Please tell me why, as a (relatively) junior Flybe pilot, I should be bypassed, (even with any of the fancy options being talked about) by long service BACONs who didn't choose to do like what I did? := Nope, that doesn't seem fair to me. I joined looking ahead to an Emb 190, I joined because I believe this Company has the ethos and the ability to do just what TRPL did.:D All of my erstwhile muckers didn't have the faith, or the guts to make the move. That's not criticism, that's a fact, (and I had nearly fifteen years in the various incarnations of Pigpen). Anyway, you take my point. And if I have a point, then all my present colleagues in Flybe have an even bigger one. :ok:
So, while I don't want to create any ruckus, I'm afraid that I cannot vote in favour of any kind of seniority amalgamation. Fair is fair, I voted with my feet, and obviously y'all have the same opportunity!:cool:
Hope you decide to come across, I think I appreciate this airline even more than the natives, and that's because I've seen how it was (with TRPL), and I've seen how utterly cr@p it can get (Hutchings) and then again seen it like Manx/BRAL was in, say, the mid - late nineties when we were cleaning up. Reference money (:} ) of course we all want as much as possible, but it is really economic suicide to expect to get an EZY/Ryan paypacket from this scale of operation. I'd much much much :) rather have a secure company and slightly less take home than have to exist under Hutchings etc, never knowing from one month to the next whether I would still have a job next week/month/year - and the end result was just what everyone predicted while vainly hoping they were just being pessimistic, and that somehow it would all work out. I'd be interested to know genuinely how many of you would not have left ages ago had it not been for the lure of the FS pension scheme.:{
But if you take anything from this, let it be - with all the best wishes in the world - the seniority list is non-negotiable, and you will be :ugh: if you think otherwise.

PS - PH / CP / DD in Macdonalds?????? Chr1st, that would solve the obesity problem because the chain would be closed inside a year! :yuk:

SandLat650

7th Nov 2006, 15:52

AC,

Your roster looks nothing like mine. From about April to when I went on leave in August I pretty much did 5 on 2 off, 5 on 2 off, etc, etc. My days off were Tue/Wed - for weeks! Lots of people were the same, ending up with the same days off for weeks on end. What happened to the rolling roster?

In the last couple of months (after I got my first rostered weekend off since March), I'm back on something like 5 on, 2 off, 5 on 2 off, 5 on 2 off, 6 on 2 off. It rolls, but very slowly and I'm currently on Thur/Fri off with a Sat coming at the end of the month. It sure as hell isn't going to stall on Sat/Sun off for weeks on end and IF I actually get a rostered weekend off in the next 5 weeks, it'll probably be just one. Personally, I think I'm owed a couple but rostering probably won't agree.

From my own stand point, the rostering (!) and lack of roster stability are the 2 biggest problems in Flybe at present. They've apparently realised this and have, by all accounts, agreed to try and solve it. However, being the cynic I am, I'll believe it when I see it.

Regards

tiggerific_69

7th Nov 2006, 15:54

surely once all this goes ahead,the extra crew will hopefully alleviate the amount of work and maybe more weekends off will be available for all?

Cornflake

7th Nov 2006, 16:04

You make some very good points Prince, whether or not everyone will agree with everything you say is something else. However, it's still FAR too early to be making such big decisions, particularly after the debacle and the dust still being all in the air. Get Xmas out of the way, see which way things look likely to go and by then the CV exercises will be more complete. One of my biggest problems is that I was rather unimpressed by your Dash FM when he moved from Brymon as one of TDLF's lickspittles. He used to regularly talk about his many thousands of hours on VC10s and Nimrods (I think) and was hugely embarrassed when it was pointed out he'd actually been a Flight Engineer. As an FO he took over the ATP fleet, said he would be concentrating on 'management' and that management shouldn't be trainers, and was no sooner LHS qualified than he mysteriously became a trainer, and qualified for the extra dosh. I know it was thought he left the Fleet in an awful mess administratively when he left - I wouldn't have thought he had the nouse to run a 60 a/c fleet. Does any of that sound familiar, or has the Exeter air changed him?

Noiffsorbuts

7th Nov 2006, 16:17

Interesting post LP.

Everybody has got their own pet concern about this.

To some its staff travel, others its pay, pensions, rostering or what ac youll fly. Your issue is seniority.

Speaking personaly I dont give a monkeys about moving from the 145 to the 400. Actualy having sat in it for five years Id love something new and will welcome the challenge!

A word of advice if I may be so bold.

The minute anyone sits down and says "you move my piece of cheese over my dead body"............you are going to have a very unhappy bunny, because things dont work that way.

Change brings with it opportunity as well as localised **** storms

So, at the risk of sounding patronising, open your mind, accept that change is happening, not all of it to your taste and lets all get on with making this thing work without bunkering down in your individual silo.

The one thing is for certain and that is the arrival of us lot sure as hell is going to put pressure on your terms and conditions upwards as some of us know a thing or two about getting these:) .Those of us who battled the excretable offerings from BA in the guise of their seconded managers got some pretty good agreements despite some pretty bloody street fighting, notably over scheduling.

Bacon Slicer

7th Nov 2006, 16:19

Well done The Little Prince- you and I are on the same LOC/GS- good post
To the rest of you chaps, just for once have your day, and insist absolutely that PH/CP/DD are all paraded around the bases for a pleasant cup of tea and Cucumber sandwiches with the pilots, cabin crew, engineers and ground staff who's lives are to change - better still wheel Evans out as well. They are the people who need there smug faces wiping in the reality of what really was BA Connect - sell by date expired/reduced to sell. A dog's dinner if ever their was one.

At least those who were Brymon -7/-8 can walk away with heads held high,(not you RU) - I know little of the other constituents from the rock etc however.

NOIFFSORBUTTS - you need to realise that at last you are working for a business not a ****ing flying club - it is called COMMERCIAL AVIATION not BALPA CC AIRWAYS!

Bacon Slicer

p.s. better put the slicer on Ebay now, what am i bid?:D

The Little Prince

7th Nov 2006, 16:26

BACONslicers will be in much demand for the next few months - so don't sell just yet!!!:} Everyone who knows me knows I am Captain Moderate, rarely getting excited about anything except cabin crew, (:p ). However, for the record, and for Noiifs, my post was really aimed at the people who have already used immoderate phraseology and made what sound funnily like ultimatums about wanting their cake and eating it ie continuing with their Ts and Cs even though those same Ts and Cs have helped sink their current employer and would involve seriously trashing a lot of their new colleagues!!!.
I suppose everything is up for discussion, but a sense of proportion would be adviseable from those who have just been thrown a lifeline. If you want to tie that line around your necks, then do so, but you'll be cut adrift, not even dragged along!:sad:

Mr Angry from Purley

7th Nov 2006, 17:00

Sandlat650
Must be lack of crew forcing lack of w/e off. AIMS has a brilliant report on weekends (i should know I asked them to provide it 15 years ago) maybe you should ask your Pilot Reps for a print out. Wonder what will happen with systems - Flybe AIMS, Bacon - RM :\

fudpucker

7th Nov 2006, 17:01

Good luck to all my old chums from Brymon days and yes, even to folks I met after Citiexpress was formed. A word of advice though, from the outside, I don't think that anybody is in a position to 'demand' anything ~ this deal has obviously been brewing for some time and IF BACON crews are still employed by BACON then BACON would be responsible for any redundancies etc. If I was JF then I would make damn sure that BA wields the knife and then I'd offer crews employment. If BACON ceases to exist then there is no TUPE protection (which is not actually worth the paper it's written on long term) and EZE/RYR could only hire so many pilots. I remember the angst (and anger) when the seniority lists of BRAL/MANX & Brymon were merged. There will be winners and losers, but if BACON crews start demanding the earth, then they will be the losers.
Good luck to all and as was said previously, let the dust settle before getting het-up about things.

EMB170

7th Nov 2006, 17:14

Little :mad: Prince,
you don't need to talk about seniority, as you bypassed a lot of people
who were senior to you , but that is what happens when you let a F/E at the controlls ! Now you are talking about how crap the management is/was but you were brown noseying up to them and part of it :yuk: !
No, I'm not bitter I left over a year ago and have the best job I could wish for!
Good luck to the EX-Brymon Boys and Girls, I hope it works out for you!!!

Bacon Slicer

7th Nov 2006, 18:00

FlyingBug- can I suggest you slide that bottle of Burgundy back in the rack and replace the corkscrew back in the drawer?

100above

7th Nov 2006, 18:19

Little Prince
You decided to jump ship early, many of us chose not to for various reasons. Now though, the deal is about to be done and most of us will happily fly a 145 or Dash with flybe on the side rather than British Airways and then move across to a Q400 when the time comes, assuming the Q400 pay scale moves out of the dark ages and approaches that of the 146 - I guess the exodus of crews off the Q400 will force the company to address that anomaly sooner rather than later :ok: . Fortunately, we are bringing a substantial amount to the flybe table - long established routes, prime time slots and several million passengers. You know as well as we do that BA will distort the figures to suit themselves about how much of a loss we are making. Bear in mind that many of our troubles are down to BAR integration and we are still paying the price. BA want rid of their non core activities regardless of profit or loss in much the same way that CitiExpress dumped profitable routes and bases to make their presentations at Waterworld look impressive as our top class management improved the efficiency of our operation ( a quick check with Eastern, Southwest and Loganair should confirm how well those routes were actually performing). Personally I spend my days hauling nearly full Embraers off runways every day and I dont believe our commercial performance is nearly as bad as WW makes out. So as the 2 airlines merge so will the seniority lists. flybe has a massive order for new aircraft which they need to allocate to routes which are established and will make money - we are bringing them. You need more access to major European hubs like FRA and CDG - we are bringing that too. Finally to service these routes, you need crews and plenty of them - again we come as part of the package. Most of us have joined this company when it was Loganair, Manx, BRAL or Brymon - we are experienced at turboprop operations in the regions, where money was tight, turnrounds were quick and we all mucked in. Most of us will fit in well to flybe, but to suggest we slot in at the bottom of your seniority list is neither fair nor reasonable and it wont happen. We are looking forward to the future and so should you. With integration should come a chance to improve your existing Ts and Cs and salaries without impacting on profits as crews choose to stay and training costs reduce. With the massive growth and revenue we are about to bring to flybe this could be a good time for both pilot groups and help secure the continued success of flybe in a desperately competitive industry :) .

In trim

7th Nov 2006, 19:03

100 above....I totally agree with FB. Yours is one of the most reasoned posts on the topic so far, and I only hope things work out for all of you.

I was impacted by another one of BA's bizarre decisions in the past, and although I now work elsewhere, I know the uncertainty which faced us all at the time, and I wish all flybe and BA CON employees the best for a smooth transition which may well result in something quite special!!

Megaton

7th Nov 2006, 19:22

"I guess the exodus of crews off the Q400 will force the company to address that anomaly sooner rather than later"

FlyBE have been losing Dash pilots for ages and they have never made any meaningful attempt to retain them so I'd be very surprised if they change now. You all thought BACON management was bad? :eek: :eek:

brain fade

7th Nov 2006, 21:06

Apart from the fact that they make money,:ok: , FlyBE sound more & more like BACX/ Bacon but with a bit less pay and a lot more work.

I'm minded to split. Only a decent offer in T&C terms is likely to keep me.

I've no axe to grind and frankly I wish the new, combined airline only good luck and fair winds.

I'd like to see progress in;

1. Staff travel. How about existing concessions for say 5 years? Wont cost BA a cent.

2. Scheduling agreement. Much has been said about the BACon scheme, but.................... A hefty payment for a day off can often save a cancellation and result in a profitable situation for all.
Disruption payments can be avoided by good quality rostering. At BACon there was a sliding scale inasmuch as the disruption payments were reduced if they were occurring less frequently (due good rostering), but went back up if being overused (indication of short crewing or poor rostering).
This encouraged considerate rostering. Anyone got a problem with that?

3. Seniority. This is clear from all sides and I see the Flybe guys point too. Don't know how it'll turn out, but something acceptable will be negotiated I hope, otherwise the number joining Flybe will be less. Maybe that won't bother Mr. French tho'. After all he's been given a free airline so who cares who leaves? Not being cynical but there's a balance to be struck here, and it may suit Flybe for a lot of us to leave.

4. Pay. Flybe make a lot of money. I'm not taking a pay cut, especially as it sounds like Flybe pilots are flying their bollocks off!

Fingers crossed! It would be nice to just step over.:)

Tandemrotor

7th Nov 2006, 21:41

Somebody earlier in these posts was correct: BACON bring a lot to the table regarding routes and experienced pilots. Flybe pilots should also not underestimate the aspirations that will accompany the BACON pilots regarding more professional (though according to some, not more 'progressive'?) T & Cs. This is potentially a huge advantage to the long term aspirations of most flybe pilots.

What is obvious however, is that flybe have just been presented with the best Christmas present they could ever have wished for: The surrender of perhaps their closest competitor.

From my side of the fence, I too am disgusted!

What is uttter garbage, is the suggestion that BACON T & Cs somehow "helped to sink their current employer"

I know TLP is naive, but this is utter crap.

There are some significant debating points ahead, which will almost certainly be decided by commercial muscle, and not necessarily the grey areas of employment law!

If there is an alienation of ex BACON pilots, flybe pilots will not benefit in the way they otherwise could. If this is handled in an open and unprejudiced atmosphere, there will be benefits for all. Crucially because the two workforces are so similar in size. There needs to be an acceptance of 'fairness' on all sides.

If the normal 'tribal' influences hold sway however, this is going to be difficult to live through.

I wish all the very best.

ingridiines

7th Nov 2006, 23:10

Hello there just a quick post for those worried about losing staff travel concessions.

Flybe unlike Ryanair and Easyjet is an IATA airline with full interline agreements with most major airlines and many minor ones too enabling all staff of flybe ID90 tickets for sub load/stand by travel worldwide as well as with flybe. We have self ticketing agreements with most major airlines also which means you can get your hands on the tickets almost immediately (one call to EXT for other airlines then collect straight away at ticket desk if required in a hurry or if you are travelling on a flybe flight you can book and collect tickets anytime at any of their ticket desks).

Good luck to all!

Sky God

8th Nov 2006, 00:14

Thanks for the sample roster, AC. Does what you actually end up flying actually resemble what you have at the start of the month in print?

LP: great to read about the healthy profits, but do they pass any of them on to the staff each year?

It’s now been five days since the announcement and I have yet to meet a FlyBe rep. They had better start selling this takeover ASAP otherwise they will acquire a demoralized and uncooperative workforce.

FlyBe should get their people around the crewrooms soon. A bit of FlyBe propaganda would be better than nothing. All I’ve heard over the past couple of days is cries of: “RED HOT POKER INBOUND!!.... RED HOT POKER INBOUND!!!”.

flying jocks

8th Nov 2006, 08:00

As I think all would no doubt disagree, the merger (considered a merger by virtue of relative sizes of both companies) or takeover (as it is officially) was outside the control of staff from both sides of the fence.
Timing has been crucial in proposing a sale date for BACON and at present there should be enough time for all to reflect on what has happened and subsequently decide whether they are staying or voluntarily leaving the company since it has been decided to keep the pilot community employed.
Moving on from past years and hearing people complain about being treated badly and having to suffer yet another form of disruption will not make THEIR situation any better.
There may be unfortunates in the company who have worked hard and feel that they were next in line for a promotion etc. At the end of the day, there is a business to run and the transition should be managed as smoothly as possible to avoid existing longterm BA customers from making alternative arrangements (say routeing through London) rather than get a point to point service which they are already used to and enjoy. (Perhaps executive club points could be cashed in for the first year on Flybe routes at a preferable "exchange rate" to continue interest in the business)
What we should be concentrating on are not which equipment we will get to play with when the dust settles, but minimum disruption to our lives. YES THAT IS RIGHT - we need to protect what we have got and not try to sulk too much about what failed opportunities this whole experience has caused.
As deciding seniority etc. The only fair way is by DOJ, however this should not put one pilot into the precarious position of wondering which pilot more senior can displace him/her from their present position. Promotions should be decided based on relevant experience (the same way as if you were applying for a job outside the company), so all factors eg. Total time, PIC time, jet time, turboprop time aswell as training qualifications (TRI, TRE) should be considered before looking at the list and deciding, who is next?
Those who do not wake up to that could be :ugh: for a very long time

The Little Prince

8th Nov 2006, 08:19

Now that really does make me smile! To read old Tandem criticising "tribal influences" after his war dances against BACX and for BA BALPA is quite, quite hysterical. In fact, the only thing I've seen funnier is his description of what BACON bring to the carving block, after his insistence over the last 'n' years that we brought nothing to BA which was why we shouldn't be integrated. Then there is the almost as amusing statement that "the suggestion that BACON T & Cs somehow "helped to sink their current employer" - of course, silly old me, overheads play no part in the bottom line do they?? Remember the awful RJ serviceability and all the work that Flightline and Titan got, that was even more than the 400 quid a day being handed out to all and sundry. Great for the short term capitalists, but long term.....maybe another reason why we are shortly to see some IR from mainline.

Excuse me anyway, I have to go - I was thinking about merged seniority and I just saw an airborne pig (or was it a packet of smoked bacon) on short finals!:rolleyes:

Xploy Ted

8th Nov 2006, 08:53

It is worth looking back to the merger of BRAL & Brymon. Management have a positive interest in divide & rule and will grasp any thread of disunity and play it for all it is worth.

In the end, the possibility of legal action if they forced a merger that suited them, rather than let the union resolve it won out.

Trouble was avoided in that merger by hard work from both CCs and good common sense on both sides. The protective instincts of the troops in a senirority merger are music to management ears, so be careful and go for a merged seniority solution based on fairness not protection.

BALPA need to be given the hard word along these lines too, as whilst they are your best hope, they too are human enough to want a solution rather than war. Remember that everybody in these deals has an agenda!

Good luck, you'll all need it and besides, not everyone can walk.

Noiffsorbuts

8th Nov 2006, 09:01

Little Prince you seem like a man in the know. Whats the scoop with Cheesy boy? Obviously a man of influence in Flybe.

Had a mixed press with us as DeLA F's protege?

rhythm method

8th Nov 2006, 09:29

I can understand why The Little Prince would feel that way although I don't agree with his drawing a line in the sand attitude.

Such intransigence will get us nowhere. Instead, a modicum of sense and logic applied can easily come up with other alternatives.

TLP is worried that he will be disadvantaged if/when the seniority lists are merged based on DOJ, as he previously worked for BACX before jumping ship to start at the bottom of the Flybe seniority list... I would feel aggrieved or worried too in his position.

The BACon crews definitely do not want to be simply tagged onto the bottom of the Flybe list, and who could argue with that? If you had served 10 or 12 years, to have a fresh 200hr recruit above you on the seniority list, when you have had such a 'change of company' forced upon you. Such a move would inevitably lead to an exodus of crew, and let's face it, Flybe NEED crew for a recently aquired massive expansion of their network. Flight cancellations were in the offing before this merger due to lack of crews. If you do this often enough you will lose your customers, and sound the death knell.

The merged seniority list could be achieved by DOJ of whichever company which is most beneficial to the individual. For example, TLP's position would be determined by his DOJ with BRAL. Any guys currently with BACon who were previously employed by JY/BE/Flybe would use that DOJ. Obviously with the proviso that it is based on a continual service with either of the companies, and they have not been to a third airline in the interim.

Food for thought. :ok:

remoak

8th Nov 2006, 09:48

Fortunately, we are bringing a substantial amount to the flybe table - long established routes, prime time slots and several million passengers.I think some of you need to take a reality check! First of all, there isn't any "table" - this isn't a negotiation. BACON have been bought, it isn't a merger, and flybe (and quite possibly flybe crews) will decide how the new guys are integrated. Secondly, those routes don't belong to BACON - anybody can fly on most of them, and I'm sure that flybe would have simply picked them up when BACON went to the wall (or competed on them if they wanted to hasten the demise of BACON). Just look at how quickly flybe deposed BRAL at SOU when they moved in there.

As for moving across on the same T & C's as the BACON crews currently have - dream on! Flybe is a LOW COST carrier, they aren't going to improve anything unless they absolutely have to. And remember, it isn't a merger, the BACON crews have absolutely no bargaining power here.

If I were a BACON pilot, I'd be getting my CV dusted off right now, because the only way is down with this acquisition. Lower pay, poorer T & C's, inferior equipment. Better than being unemployed, of course.

MaxReheat

8th Nov 2006, 10:52

Harsh but, I regret, probably true. As I said several days ago, this is a takeover, not a friendly merger. While pay and T&Cs will, no doubt, be worked on over the coming years, the BACon guys and girls are in no position to demand anything from the new employer and if they think that life is going to continue as before, on what was, let's be honest, gold plated conditions (in the end) for a regional operation, then that reality check is in order - or get those CVs polished.

brain fade

8th Nov 2006, 10:56

Takeover my ARSE!

A takeover is when one company buys another.
Flybe have paid sweet FA for BACon!

OK, they'll have to hand over 15% of their stock when they float.

But as the company will be 50% bigger due to adding BACon, that will be no hardship.

Also as BA then will hold 15% they'll only have to buy another 35.1% of the stock if they want to repaint the tails red, white & blue and reenter the regions with exactly the set up they need.

ps. Spare a thought for the many mainline BA folk who'll soon lose their jobs due to connect closing. Seems to be that BHX, for example will soon close completely as a BA base after 35 years with the loss of 400 jobs. Other 'outstations' like MAN, GLA, EDI, BRS etc will also lose many jobs although the employees are not connect.:(

issi noho

8th Nov 2006, 10:59

Would I be the only one to think this turkey was carved up long ago. It really doesn't matter what mud gets thrown here about how it should be, it will be the reality that people have to deal with, and as the old interview question goes ' have you ever had to give somebody bad news - how did you do it'.

When BA took over BCal and Dans there were winners (not many) and losers amongst pilots and other staff. Those that won did so at the expense of somebody in BA. Over time these things get forgotten and those passed over will eventually get their promotion or type change. The difference here is it will be much easier to leave the new company provided the LOCO or other regionals suit you (assuming you think any other regional is safe from a similar situation).

No matter what co you are presently with you should be considering all your options right now to be ready to face the reality when you know what it is.
I can only guess but I imagine that this is probably true for the whole of the UK regional market, if not now certainly in the near future.

I don't know how many posters are senior managers, maybe a few, but there is a negotiating table here and I don't think there are any pilots (as we know them) are invited to it, as usual these days we will be told how we're affected after he event.

Whatever else BACON possessed (routes, customers, airport access) that was for BA to use trying to sell the business not for pilots to exploit to keep their staff travel, t's and c's.

IN

overpaid support staff central to the core business - as seen by management
pilot - as seen by the customer

Hudson Bay

8th Nov 2006, 12:12

I don't understand why you guys in Flybe and Bacon don't just pick up your sticks and go and earn a hell of alot more money with one of the jet low cost operators. There are so many jobs out there only an idiot would fly a prop aircraft for 40 grand!! I know for a fact if you have Q400 command time the jet operators are more than happy to put you in the left seat of a bus/ 737/ (one guy I know got a 757 command) In my mind flying a prop should command 100 grand plus. If flybe offered that, I might think about it.

Loads of jobs lads but it's up to you.

skianyn vannin

8th Nov 2006, 13:32

Well the post from Hudson Bay is one of the more sensible on here at the moment. And yes lots of us are actively pursuing the easy/Ryan route at the moment.

After all you work just as hard at easyJet, yet you earn shed loads more cash, have a stable roster and don't have to fly some rather quaint thing with air paddles on the front! If you want to fly low cost, you might as well do it in the premiership, rather than the 4th division. Still its a good job there are plenty of folk out there willing to fly for food/nothing/I'll take this and be grateful I've got a job. Otherwise there would be a shortage of jobs at the real operators.

Captskyboy

8th Nov 2006, 15:18

Lots of bitterness here guys. From both sides by the looks of it. First of all I have to say that as a Q400 Capt I thorougly enjoy my work. Yes it is sometimes lots of it. This month I do 5/2/6/2/5/2/6/? The 2's are the days off and they are all late finish, early start. Not ideal by a long shot, but hopefully this will change with you guys joining us. Yes I mean joining and not taken over. Thats my way of looking at it anyway.

Apart from the fact tha we make money and you dont. You are briniging a huge asset to Flybe with your routes and experience. I for one welcome the situation. Not because we loose a competitor, but because we gain a lot.

Some may say that we worked hard to make Flybe what it is today and therfore we should not be disadvantaged by loosing out on seniority. The same is true for you guys and when we all merge it is all of our combined efforts over the past years that will form the new company.

I dont believe the new seniority list should be done by date of joining. From what I hear (It may not be true) that would be too much of an disadvantage for us in Flybe. Equally I dont think drawing a line in the sand and put you behind all of us is fair either.

Both companies have about 350 pilots. So personally I think a merging of the seniority list's by number in seniority is the way forward. I.e. number 1 on your list becomes number 2 on our list. Number 2 on our list would then be number 3 and 2 on your list would be number 4 and so on.

By doing this I for one would all the sudden get a lot more people in front of me, but I would also have a lot more people behind me. The proporsion would remain the same.

As for those who left BA Connect and joined Flybe. Starting to make special considerations would make it all messy. It would definately upset anyone in Flybe being put back by someone who joined after them. After all They made the decission to leave and joined another company. Losing you place on the seniority list is part of that. Thats just life.

I for one welcome the news and would like to say Welcome to our company. We all have to work together to make it work and we all have to make some concessions.

BA is also giving Flybe a lot of money to take on BA Connect. I heard in the region of 120-150M. Can't vouch for the accuracy of this though. Thats why they are getting the 15% share.

Jaq

8th Nov 2006, 15:23

We get (got) unlimited ID90s & ID80s after 6months employment. One ID100 after 7years employment and for LHS 1 confirmed "J (club) class" ID100, both per year.

Bluff can you tell where I can find these details. :confused:

sundodger

8th Nov 2006, 15:32

What a surprise! Good old BA, They have taken a profitable regional airline, ran it into the ground and all for some slots at LHR, As BA have a 15% stake in Flybe, I would not be to surprised that down the road when Flybe are making a massive profit that BA will do the exact same thing to them, To all my soon to be former colleagues good luck for the future and I bid thee A Fond Farewell :D :ok:

Sky God

8th Nov 2006, 16:22

Captskyboy, I like your pitch but I don’t like the idea of 5/2/6/2/5/2/6/? and always working lates to earlies. I’ve done it before and I certainly won’t be doing it again for anyone. As a matter of interest, how many days’ leave do you get per year? And what about request days off, part-time working, etc?

For those who are worried about their pensions: Don’t. Working those shift patterns until you are 60/65 you won’t have a problem because your life expectancy will reduce to that of the average Glaswegian - plus a small bit (Sorry, Glaswegians).

Another day has gone by and no one from management has turned-up to placate us – and so the bitterness grows.

In the unlikely event that I am ever invited to go on Desert Island Disks I shall dispense with the usual record, book and luxury. Instead I will opt for DE pegged naked on the sand, a jug of gravy and a hungry Rottweiler!

JAR

8th Nov 2006, 17:56

Mike Mercury

8th Nov 2006, 19:21

No point making statements when we can't yet know the plan. For sure, not everyone will want to go, some will move sooner, some later. Not all RJ pilots will want to go to sunny EDI, and some non-RJ people may think that's a great idea. Until the dust settles, there's just no point speculating. The joke is that you can bet the people being loudest on here will be the ones being untruthful about their intentions.
I also think that Hutch and his mates have generated such a complete distrust of ANYTHING to do with BACON that what we are presently being told won't be believed anyway, until we finally get the last details from Flybe. Even then, people will obscure what they really think, and what they are planning. And why not - Hutch and his mates have lied, and lied and lied. For all we know, there's more to come yet!

arelix

8th Nov 2006, 20:48

"Hutch and his mates have lied, and lied and lied"

I Doubt they had a clue, don't think they are that smart!

biddedout

8th Nov 2006, 23:44

Captskyboy.

Very sensible ideas. Just for info, due to many other previous company mergers takeovers and much past managment meddling it was decided that the various lists that were merged to form the BACX / bacon list were reset to contractual (continuous service date of joining). Once the lists were fianlly put together and accepted it was agreed that dates of joining would be removed to stop any more bitching abbout who worked for who and when. We just have a list of names in an agreed order.

Merging the two lists in contractual date of joining would perhaps be more correct, but I agree with you, there might be a tendency for this to favour one side due to differences in time served in each company.
Even though I could see that this might advantage me, I think you are right, we should keep it simple just merge these lists based on position only. 1,1 2,2, 3,3...

From our own experience in BAcon, luck and base counts for more sometimes than just seniority position. Some TP peope in Flybe may end up for a time on the Bacon jets if they move towards some of the larger Bacon bases. Flybe pilot should not understimate just how many Bacon pilots would be perfctly happy on a TP including many current Jet pilots - so long as the pay levels are sorted of course. Most of the big jet wannabees have already gone and done that now and most who have stayed simply want a proper regional lifestyle (not BA's potty touring rosters) and they will happily take a TP if it means getting back to their base that was slashed under BA rule. Many I am sure would like to flow back out of our few remaining "core" bases back to places like GLA, ABZ, the South West etc. many are only flying a jet out of BHX because that is where they were forced to go.
Likewise though, I think it is a little naive of some to think that just because the 190 was intended to replace the Flybee 146's, the 146 pilots will automatically go on it. I think the MD will tend to put these airframes into bases where they can be used most effectively. This will not necessarily mean that they will all be going to current Flybe bases.

Airlink Scotland

9th Nov 2006, 05:22

Some on this thread have a very distorted view on reality.

The reality is, BA Bacon employees have been thrown a lifeline by another employer, should they wish to grab that lifeline is up to them, however if they do it is to join an established and mature organisation. This is your only option. If flybe had not aquired your company you would be faced with redundancy at some point in the future, make no mistake, Bacon would have been dispanded, no question of that whatsoever.

Anyone who thinks they can dicate terms and conditions to their new employer will I imagine be shown the door pronto.

Good luck to those good people in Bacon who will see the light and accept the new terms and conditions, and their position on the bottom of the seniority list, although perhaps getting rid of seniority lists altogether might be a better idea.

Mark "Bez" Berry

9th Nov 2006, 07:40

Anybody know what flybe do regarding bonds. I heard a nightmare rumour yesterday that they bond for 3 years and the amount doesn't reduce overtime. Can anybody clarify this?

biddedout

9th Nov 2006, 07:46

Airlink Scotland,

Please go and buy yourself a basic Employment law book. One probable reason why BA was so keen to pay to have Flybe take Bacon off their hands is that they would otherwise have had some very complicated and potentially embarrsing issued to deal with, not least the need to reveal the BAcon, BAR and BA accounts to interested partes and the authorities. Thanks to five years of mismanagment, BAcon were already high scorers in the BA annual report for tribunal cases (mostly lost or settled). :rolleyes:
BA / Bacon threw most of any potential profit into paying for lawyers to fight and generally lose cases against staff which could easily have been settled with a sensible discussion and a bit of give and take. Unless they are completely stupid, I canot imagine Flybe managment trying to twist and squirm their way around the many sensible laws which have been developed to protect workers from never ending attempts to errode terms and conditions.

Company mergers are very complex and the TUPE laws which have been developed to cover these situations are not ideal, but most tribunals will take a dim view of any major company which tries to blatantly avoid the meaning and intent of these rules. I have every faith in the ability of the staff reps, their many knowlgeable advisors and Flybe managment to sort this merger out sensibly without delay.

remoak

9th Nov 2006, 08:43

IT... ISN'T... A... MERGER!!!!!!!

When one company buys another (irrespective of how they pay for it), the rules are different. If you had read that basic employment law book, you would know that.

Anyone that thinks the BACON crews have any bargaining power whatsoever, is in for a nasty shock.

chec tunset

9th Nov 2006, 09:07

I would tend to agree with remoak. I hope that the 2 companies can be harmonised with minimal grief to all concerned but make no mistake, Flybe are in the driving seat here. The CEO is no fan of pilots either. Good luck to all concerned.

biddedout

9th Nov 2006, 09:08

We will see.

A certain Ops Director at Manx airlines adopted a similar approach to yours when they took over a large chunk of Loganair. This was in the days before staff represntation when he declared himself to be a "benevolent dictator". He unilateraly decided to stick all the Logan people below the Manxies and as a result, the vast majority of the Logans sad FU, I'm off. The result - the new company picked up a massive multi million pound trainng bill and a lot of chaos and disruption as they tried to replace all the pilots they thought they would be getting.

I doubt that Flybe managment will be that stupid. Sensible pragmatic negotiations with a bit of give and take all round will be the order of the day if they want it all sorted by April.

Noiffsorbuts

9th Nov 2006, 09:50

Remoak, too much noise and too much wishful thinking on your part.

The purchase of the Bacon shares by Flybe might not be subject to TUPE but the business merger and amalgamation of work forces and routes thereafter sure as hell are.

Flybe cannot dictate non-negotiated terms to ex Bacon workers which limit any of their pre existing contractual rights.

There are some non contractual areas such as staff travel where we dont have any statutory negotiating power, but you delude yourself if you think we will take anything that is thrown at us and be glad of it. I also do not think for one moment that your management would be stupid enough to expect us to do so as I cant see them wanting to spend fortunes being distracted by Industrial tribunals.

Pragamatism and good sense all round will see a satisfactory conclusion for all and it is good to hear the positive noises coming from the two CCs.

MaxReheat

9th Nov 2006, 10:13

Just a thought - but does flyBe actually need all BACon's pilots? FlyBe expect around another 40 airframes, at 4.5 crews per frame (probably generous) = 180 pilots plus present shortfall, say 50, plus natural future wastage, another 50, gives 280. OK, let's say 300 against a current BACon strength of 450. Just a thought.

Noiffsorbuts

9th Nov 2006, 10:24

Little Prince................dont go shy on us.............What about Cheesy boy? Has the Devon air suited him?

Whats his press like in Flybe?

biddedout

9th Nov 2006, 10:27

Max reheat,

Unlikely to be a problem as a good 50-100 are already serving their notice or are about to resign with many facing the diffcult decision of having to choose between three or four offers.

Little prince,

If you are a true BRAL and ex Manxer as you imply, would you be willing to answer a few verification questions without phoning a friend?

100above

9th Nov 2006, 11:20

Max Reheat
Just a wee correction to your figures - 4.5 crews x 40 aircraft = 360 pilots, not 180, so by your sums flybe need all of bacons pilots and more. There are some of our list working their notice to head off to pastures new, secondees returning to big BA, plus the pilots required to fly the 'new' RJ100 LCY operation to be taken into account, so I guess flybe will be recruiting heavily for some time to come.

Sky God

9th Nov 2006, 13:33

There’s some very strange arithmetic in the above posts. Anyway, FlyBe, please, please, please can I keep my 60K salary and sensible rostering. Still haven’t heard anything definite from anyone yet. Perhaps it’s time to start another rumour.

biddedout

9th Nov 2006, 14:41

Just a slight correction to my post above ref the Manx Ops Director. I have done a little research and it would appear that he was off on long term sick at the time so wasn't directly responsible for the Logan Manx merger farce. It seems that his deputies at the time were the ones who created the expensive mess. Some of the current Bacon managers were around at the time, and I don't think any of them tried to do anything about correcting it, but with a bit of luck, they will have learnt from this and wil not suggest or try such a thing again. Hopefully they will have mentioned this little part of history to their counterparts in Flybe.

BeViRAAM

9th Nov 2006, 20:34

Some interesting info on here but still nothing concrete from the company. I wonder whether any Buzz crew have an opinion about staying on old t & c's.

On a brighter note, maybe we could have a shake up of our CC, 4% doesn't really float my boat.:D

The other thread mentions redundancy pay, if other pay proposals are anything to go by it will be large pay outs for any of the positions that the CC members are in.

Chesty Morgan

9th Nov 2006, 20:43

Anotherflapoperator,

I'm not entirely sure that sorting both seniority lists by DOJ is going to be fair on the Flybe crews. If, as I suspect, the BACon seniority list is a lot more top heavy than the Flybe one this will be unfair to the Flybe lot.

I think a simple merging, one of ours then one of yours, although not ideal, would be far more suitable. Provided that the proportion of crew to aeroplanes, jets to turbo props, stays roughly the same. Your relative position on the list stays the same despite your seniority number doubling.

Boobie,

You could have had a hat if you wanted one! := :}

biddedout

9th Nov 2006, 20:45

Beviraam

What are you on about?

MarkD

9th Nov 2006, 21:56

re: Flybe speeding up fleet renewal.

Don't know what Emb's 19x line is like but I read recently that Porter's delivery dates for BBD Q400 have slipped to the right due to the demand pressure on the line. Either that or the canny Bob Deluce has taken a few bob in order to relax the schedule in favour of operators needing a/c fast perhaps?

brain fade

10th Nov 2006, 22:51

It's becoming clear that this 'move' by BA is more of a mass withdrawal from the regions than a simple attempt to pay Flybe to take Connect.

Although it seems to have been missed by the press, as the situation becomes more clear, it seems that BA will now:

1. Close BHX as a base losing about 400 posts and any presence at BHX
2. Although all the Connect flights will be 'Flybe'd', they will put out to tender the handling of the remaining 'shuttle' flights at the other 'outstations'.

Thus NO BA staff at MAN, EDI, GLA, ABZ, INV, BHX , NEW, etc.

In other words it seems like the bulk of redundancies will be non-BACon BA staff.:{

Any idea how many will lose their jobs?

part69

11th Nov 2006, 07:23

Good luck to you all at BACON!
A link from the manx press yesterday
http://www.iomonline.co.im/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=870&ArticleID=1872427

bluepilot

11th Nov 2006, 07:35

I wish you all at FLYBE and BACON all the best with this, any takeover / merger is difficult and will need maturity on both sides to forfill a reasonable result, any attempts at one upmanship or bullying from either side eg "just go to the bottom of the list" will breed long term resentment and will be extreemly damaging. The ex Airuk / KLMuk / Buzz / KLCuk / and now some KLM guys have seen this bitter fighting for some years now and the damage and bitterness has been dreadful. Please guys learn by the mistake of others.....

madmax100

11th Nov 2006, 08:41

I still remember the countless number of times when Tim the To$$er wrote in his monthly newsletters how FLYBE would never survive in the regions!!

Dentalfloss - eat my shorts!

Wee Weasley Welshman

11th Nov 2006, 09:01

If its any consolation I was gutted when told easyJet had bought Go. It all worked out well though, resulting in a bigger more stable more commercially successful employer, with all that brings. I think the Flybe thing will bring about the same result. I hope it is as painless as it can be for all involved.

Cheers

WWW

The Little Prince

11th Nov 2006, 10:47

Little prince,

If you are a true BRAL and ex Manxer as you imply, would you be willing to answer a few verification questions without phoning a friend?

Be delighted to answer whatever questions you want to ask!

BTW, I was around at the LC takeover, and while people did leave, the vast majority stayed, whinging and moaning about KM's management (ha ha)methods, however we stayed. Eventually, things changed, and although some Manxies never could get over it, I guess we got our way - took about 6 years though. To suggest Manx had to wind their necks in at all during the takeover is simply untrue, they had the whip hand, and did pretty much as they liked. Hutch etc was not a manager then, to be fair Manx did make lots of money, and was pretty successful and largely content - yes, Norm was a dictator, Norm was very arrogant, and Norm was an out and out bully - but I repeat, the airline made money, and few voted with their feet 'cos Ts and Cs were pretty fair by Industry standards. I can assure you that Jim will be no different. He and the board will only be interested in the bottom line, and only interested in the Ts and Cs insofar as they keep sufficient pilots to maintain a profitable bottom line. That's no different to Terry L. Any doubters about the way business works should ignore the fact that Terry was a 'nice guy' with a triple issue of people skills. He was a businessman. Use the legal argument - Qui Bono from the floatation and subsequent sale. The Bish, TRPL and Norm - that was about it. BA got the LHR slots, and we all got stuffed. Don't think JF is any different.
It may well be there will be some sort of seniority deal, but I have it from Capt. Cheddar himself that no Flybe pilot will be disadvantaged by the move. The last thing is that those who remember the LC/Manx takeover should remember how long it took for things to settle down. Bases/types/personnel all moved around quite a lot, I don't believe we have seen anything resembling a final plan yet, so don't expect that just because you're a senior 146 oik with ten years in that that guarantees you ANYTHING!!!!! The Baconeers are all very welcome, they will add value to the company, but.....they have been BOUGHT, there Company may not be protected by TUPE, and they should definitely not expect to come dicatating ANYTHING! I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but that's business. It was no differrent for Air UK, no different for Buzz, and it will be no different for BACON. Really sorry if that offends, nothing personal, I'm not really even the messenger, just the guy waving a cup of java under your collective noses. If you really wanted to achieve anything, you should all get behind BALPA and threaten to strike, but you (and me) took all the sh1t for years from that idiot Hutch and his mates and did nothing. Even when we had a positive ballot result, we did nothing meaningfful.

I predict:

Those who can will leave. This will be people with enough experience for an EZY/Rynair type slot, where such a/c are based where they live, or who are single and have no ties so can move.
Some few will try and commute to their new base, hoping against hope that the EDI operation will be absorbed into BA and they will finally get into mainline. Dreamers. This will be a death by slow strangulation, and will be performed by the same people who gave you the current mess.
Most of the rest will whinge, complain, threaten but take the stick in their @rses and accept life. There will be some friction, but eventually things will settle down again, and due to the relatively high turnover here at Flybe, within few (3 - 5) years, the people who can cut it will again have regional jet jobs. The rest will continue on the Dash, earning a reasonable cut for a reasonable job. The bitterness against BA will take a generation to go away.

Finally, with ref my good friend Captain Edam - he's an absolutely top bloke, as are all my management team, who will be looking out for my interests over the coming months.:O

Wee Weasley Welshman

11th Nov 2006, 11:06

When you casually bracket together EZY/Ryan I object.

One is a UK PLC with a well respected Board listed on the LSE which recognises BALPA and works under the aegis of UK employment law and offers a (soon to be improved under current negotiation we hope) 5 on 3 off 5 on 4 off roster. Industrial tribunals and court cases don't happen plus the CEO and the Flight Ops Director were in my crewroom within the last month wanting to explain the business plan, to listen to crews opinions and gripes and were seen taking notes.

The other is Ryanair.

Cheers

WWW

Jaq

11th Nov 2006, 11:33

Little prince. I'm moved to post here, which is something I usually avoid, 'cos your the first one that seems to be able to see the wood.
If only our (Hopefully) departed managers had you insight.

The Little Prince

11th Nov 2006, 12:39

Apologies if that offended - I didn't mean it as a comment on either company in any sort of professionally comparable terms of any sort. I have mates with both, some who slag each off, and some who think each is a top operator. I merely meant to show the direction most likely to be taken by people who have the desire and the ability to move on.:ok:

Incidentally, I note iwht interest a previous post about numbers. That had actually crossed my mind - the fact that the total number of bacons exceeded considearbly the planned expansion. I have no idea how accurate those numbers are, but there does seem to be an imbalance. A realist may therefore presume that Jim and the lads will not be unhappy to see Baconeers ride away into the sunset, the more so because there will then be no possible redundancy costs.:rolleyes: This the real world gents, sh1t happens all the time, and we are collectively no different to train drivers or assembly line workes as far as the laws of economics work. The one thing we never ever do is take any action; that's the only thing I admire about BA, their pilots do, often, act together to protect their jobs and Ts/Cs. That's why they are, or were, the best in the industry. You watch how they make old Willie step backwards over the pension issue, I still don't think he's a believer, but he will be in six months! We had several opportunities to achieve a similar result, but we bottled it every time - that was one of the final reasons I jacked it in and moved here - there was never going to be any improvement and the writing (which had been on the wall almost from the start) was being outlined in red an highlighted electrically for all to see.
BTW again, out new Head of Training is another top bloke, ex Manx/BRAL, and very talented. Just shows that not all of us had our heads in the sand, and that there's a great life outside BACX/BACON.
I do hope people will see the realities.:bored:

brain fade

11th Nov 2006, 14:11

If anything the new airline will be SHORT of pilots.
Flybe gets the a/c and the pilots flying them. It will need the pilots unless it plans to not fly the a/c. There are no extra pilots in BACon.

I notice my prev post about BA leaving the regions has passed without comment.

Captain Correlli

11th Nov 2006, 15:48

But I thought a lot of the new types are actually replacements for existing hulls? Not all, but a lot? I think most of us are too busy trying to get ANY sensible and coherent information about what is actually going to happen. I know three people who have been offered RJ course - only one has accepted, and I know one RJ guy who has accepted an Emb course. It all seems to depend who you speak to. Managers falling over themselves to tell you nothing at all - does anyone genuinely know who is going where? I would have thought that PH etc will have to stay where they are as terms of the AOC. In the same way, the Embs and Dashes are on BACON's AOC, Flybe can't just take them over. I would have thought that Hutch.Evans etc would need to remain in charge (!!!!!!) of all of these types in two different operations just to stay legal. An oddball situation - do we ever have anything else.

bermudatriangle

11th Nov 2006, 18:12

your observations about the fate of the BA mainline employees in the regions ground handling operations is spot on.A deliberate attempt to get rid of all mainline employees in the regions,this following hot on the heels of the closure of the shuttle cabin crew outstations.T5 is BA's only interest,I feel the all the eggs in 1 basket will come to haunt them for one reason or another in this unpredictable world in which we now live.

GBALU53

11th Nov 2006, 18:19

Looks like the similar things that happened when B.O.A.C and B.E.A. joined together.:ugh: :ugh:

What is next on the cards with the 1st of January fast approaching with the first major step of the Flybe plan,:confused: :confused:

tiggerific_69

11th Nov 2006, 18:28

nobody knows yet GBALU!!!

SWBKCB

11th Nov 2006, 19:55

"I notice my prev post about BA leaving the regions has passed without comment"

Not totally unnoticed - from the Edinburgh Evening Post:

"107 ground staff face the axe as BA sells off Capital routes
ALAN RODEN TRANSPORT REPORTER ([email protected])
SCORES of baggage handlers and check-in staff at Edinburgh Airport face being made redundant by British Airways.

Following the planned sell-off of the loss-making subsidiary BA Connect to rival Flybe, up to half of the 218 workers in the Capital could be laid off. The airline giant today announced a review of staffing levels at four regional airports - Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen and Manchester.

The sale of 15 Scottish routes means British Airways will not need as many ground staff at the airports. Some of the workers should be able to secure new jobs with Flybe, but dozens of others are likely to become unemployed.

A spokesman for the Transport and General Workers Union said it was too early to tell how many may be made redundant.

"It is hard to say what is going to happen. What we want is to make sure our members are fully informed of what is happening and that they are properly consulted."

He said the union was planning to hold meetings with Flybe over the jobs threat.

British Airway's operation from Edinburgh is set to be reduced to just flights to the three London airports, as well as Madrid and Rome.

BA Connect routes to Birmingham, Bristol, Hamburg, Manchester, Paris and Southampton will be taken on by Flybe.

Including London City, which will be retained by British Airways under a new subsidiary, these routes account for 53 per cent of its Edinburgh operation - suggesting nearly half of all staff could be surplus to requirements.

In Glasgow, 160 staff will be affected by the review, with 56 in Aberdeen and around 300 in Manchester. At Edinburgh, those affected all work on the check-in desks, or as baggage handlers and customer service liaison officers.

A spokesman for the airline said there would be a "significant impact" on ground operations as a result of the proposed deal.

"Up to the end of the transition period on March 25, there will be no changes," he said. "However, a significant proportion of ground-handling activity at these airports is driven by BA Connect operations. As a result, BA has launched a review of its regional ground-handling activity, which it hopes to conclude as quickly as possible. Senior managers will be visiting the four airports [to meet with staff] next week."

swedish

11th Nov 2006, 20:54

My own personal forecast on what will happen:

- Flybe is not interest in running two separate companies
- Flybe has no interest in moving any of the inherent costs from BAcon to Flybe.
- The whole of BAcon employees will be put under notice of redundancy.
- Positions will be offered in the new BA company and Flybe to everyone under notice - under Flybe or 'new BA' agreements.
- There will be no marriage of seniority lists etc. The only members of the workforce Flybe will consult with are those already employed by Flybe. BAcon crew will only be consulted on terms of redundancy.
- The new commands which would now appear in Flybe would have to be applied for by both Flybe FOs and any BAcon pilot.
- Pensions, flight tickets etc will be frozen at the point of redundancy from BAcon, under the current BAcon terms for ending of employment.
- BAcon crew will basically be forced into applying as their current type ratings are not in high demand at their current bases and the charter boys do not have any expansion plans for Summer
- Flybe cancel c. 30% of BAcon routes as being unprofitable even with Flybes costs.
-BA withdrawal from the regions and subcontract all work to third parties, as most of the Uk regions will have less BA flights than airports outside the UK.
- BA takes any new slot they can at LHR and move as much of the LGW longhaul operation to T5 as they can.
- All the new BA jobs will be based at LCY as a dual base with LHR

A personal view and it will be interesting over the next 6 months how much of this comes true.