Air Crash Nigeria

[Lancelot37]

News flash from BBC showing airliner crash in Nigerian capitol. Details to follow.

[IRISHPILOT]

From the BBC:

"Plane crash near Nigeria capital

A passenger jet has crashed near the Nigerian capital, Abuja, police say.

Doctors were urged to go to the airport after the plane, on an ADC airlines flight to Sokoto, went down. More than 100 people were on board. (...)"

Nothing on the ADC website.

[Lancelot37]

[quote=IRISHPILOT;2935178]From the BBC:

"Plane crash near Nigeria capital

quote]

The pilot of Bellview Airlines flight 210 sent a distress signal just after taking off from Lagos for the Nigerian capital, Abuja, in stormy weather at 2045 (1945 GMT) on Saturday. 117 pax and crew lost.

[POL.777]

Flight 210 was in Oct. 22nd 2005.

[Flight Safety]

From CNN

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/africa/10/29/nigeria.plane.crash.ap/index.html

State radio said the aircraft crashed in a storm shortly after takeoff.

[XPMorten]

ADC apparently operates 2 B732's

http://www.xplanefreeware.net/morten/DIV/ADC1.png

http://www.xplanefreeware.net/morten/DIV/ADC2.png

M

[Flight Safety]

XP Morten, according to the ADC Airlines website, they actually own four 732s.

Here's a link to the previously mentioned 5N-BEE, apparently the only ADC Airlines AC available on Airliners.net.

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0851647/L/

From the ADC Airlines website, here's the flight schedule for today.

SUNDAY
FLT.NO FROM TO DEP ARR

076 CALABAR LAGOS 0715 0825
074 CALABAR LAGOS 1715 1830
073 LAGOS CALABAR 1530 1645
075 LAGOS CALABAR 1915 2030
063 LAGOS ABUJA 0855 1005
066 ABUJA LAGOS 1335 1445
053 LAGOS SOKOTO 0855 1135
054 SOKOTO LAGOS 1205 1445
054 SOKOTO ABUJA 1205 1305
053 ABUJA SOKOTO 1035 1135

It looks like flight 66 is the one involved. It could also be the second leg of flight 54. Actually, these 2 flights look the same.

Sorry, it just occurred to me since I'm mentioning flight numbers. My condolences to all who are involved in this terrible tragedy.

[Dan Air 87]

Another tragedy in Nigerian skies; I would like to post my sympathies to the families of the crew members who lost their lives and to the relatives of the pax who died.

Now there will be the usual outbreak of recriminations in Lagos and Abuja by the authorities. What we really need to establish is why are there so many incidents on take off in Nigerian airspace?

[Flight Safety]

Now CNN is saying it may have been flight 53 from Abuja to Sokoto. They are also saying there may be survivors.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/africa/10/29/nigeria.crash/index.html

[jondc9]

it sounds like both planes are tired and old. while older planes can fly quite well they need responsible and diligent mx...I can imagine that was lacking.

how many of you , even prior to this tragedy, would have cheerfully reccomended flying on any Nigerian airline?

jon

[jondc9]

does anyone have the wx at the time of the crash (just before and after)?

does anyone have a nice diagram or chart of the airport and surrounding terrain?

I've heard reports that the plane either took off during a "storm" or caught fire shortly after takeoff.


just a few too many crashes in nigeria to really make sense as genuine accidents...

[hobie]

More info from BBC news .....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6096420.stm

[FO JimmieJames]

Deepest sympathies to the families. Terrible loss.

I guessed it was a 732 when I heard the news this morning. They seem to be dropping out of the sky left, right and centre. Does anyone feel the same as I do, but surly isn't it time for this great work horse of the skies (B732), to be put to rest. It is sad that all the wealthier countries who were operating the 732's have sold them off to poorer operators in Africa and South America, and they seem to be the one's suffering.
Maybe I am wrong - interested to here comments.

[TomBola]

How tragic that yet again Nigeria has another aviation disaster. Myself and many of my friends in Nigeria are too frightened to catch domestic flights apart from those operated by the only 2 operators that are recommended by most embassies. :mad:

My heart goes out to the families of those who have died and I wish my sincere condolences. I hope that the 7 survivors will recover fully.

[FO JimmieJames]

Just seen the BBC website, and they say it was a B727. However if you see the photo of the broken tail, it must have been a B737, as the Horizontal Stabilizer is mounted on the fuselage, unlike the 727 which is high mounted. Think the BBC got it wrong.

[Safe-T]

Despite all the chaos and misinformation, some official was now quoted saying it was a 23-yr old Boeing 737-2B7!
This would make it one of the two former USAir / Metrojet planes that were flying for ADC.

[Voeni]

i feel sorry for the dead ones - they are not the ones to blame

but after having been to nigeria a few days ago and experienced nigeria aviation once again... are you really surprised???

[hetfield]

Deepest sympathies to the families. Terrible loss.

I guessed it was a 732 when I heard the news this morning. They seem to be dropping out of the sky left, right and centre. Does anyone feel the same as I do, but surly isn't it time for this great work horse of the skies (B732), to be put to rest. It is sad that all the wealthier countries who were operating the 732's have sold them off to poorer operators in Africa and South America, and they seem to be the one's suffering.
Maybe I am wrong - interested to here comments.

Planes don't fall down just because they are old....

[W.R.A.I.T.H]

is that the country where an Air France A330 had an incident a couple of years ago - runway incursion by a herd of cattle, killing several and damaging the undercarriage? And where the complaint was dismissed by the aviation authorities as a normal occurrence? Correct me if I'm wrong here, but in light of the state of affairs in aviation there, definitely not the aircraft nor its age to be blamed here, imho.

[armada]

"After visiting the crash site, Federal Territory Minister Mallam Nasir el-Rufai told the BBC that the condition of the plane was "deplorable", with "bald tyres". "

Shades of Nationair DC8 in Jeddah? Crew deferred bald tire(s)/tyres, bust and caught fire on t/o, upon retracting the gear the rest was history. RIP.

[Phone Wind]

What really makes me mad about all this is that, yet again, Nigerian officialdom will rant and rave, the President will order an investigation, then within weeks it'll all be forgotten in the light of increases in violence as first Christmas, then the Presidential elections approach. A year down the road, the results of the accident investigation will still not have been released and the skies will still be full of unsafe aircraft flying into airfields with no radar, unsafe runways and navaids that are often unserviceable. Maybe a few heads will have rolled, but nothing will have changed at all. :mad: :mad: . Just how many crashes does it take and how many lives will be lost before anything meaningful is done to improve aviation safety in Africa in general and Nigeria in particular?

[albi]

QUOTE=Lancelot37;2935165]News flash from BBC showing airliner crash in Nigerian capitol. Details to follow.[/QUOTE]
just clicked onto this link.... and above it was an advert for job vacancies for pilots in nigeria..... not the best position for such an advert eh PPrune advertiser bods!!:mad:

[jondc9]

fojimmiejames and others

planes don't crash becasue they are old...they crash because of poor mx...buy a 737-200 cheaply from a first world aviation country and then put NO MONEY into MX and you have a disaster waiting to happen.

Cheap Plane=HIGH MX cost. If you are going to be cheap on MX, well, figure it out for yourself.

by the way a wheel well fire checklist for the 737-200 is:

landing gear lever down (270 knots max)
if gear UP required for performance,

leave gear down for 20 minutes AFTER warning light extinguishes

then

UP and OFF

Proceed to nearest suitable airport for landing
=====

ONE very sad thing is the way we train. We train for a problem and it is a solo problem or problem effected by the same system

We need to train for something like: while flying in major storm, wheel well fire light illuminates. Handling the storm and the emergency

or...ONE ENGINE approach to landing during WINDSHEAR.

multiple situations, as what may have happened in nigeria, are not covered.

jon


DOES ANYONE HAVE THE METAR

[seacue]

The AP story with the time 12:10 EST (1710GMT) reports the plane to be a Boeing 737-2B7.

Worn tyres aren't just in Africa. I've seen pictures from Russia within the past 3 years with plenty of fabric instead of tread showing - on a domestic jet flight.

[Patuta]

According to AeroTransport the crashed 737-204 was 23 years old.
Former operators where Thomsonfly, Air New Zealand and Midway AL. The plane ist listed as "stored?" in Lagos.

[chuks]

To be fair, after the Air France incident at Port Harcourt they finally banned the grazing of cattle next to the runway and promised to put up a fence. I think the airport is now closed for extensive renovation and it is about time. Every time you made a night landing in the rain you could see the 'temporary' wiring for the runway lights (there for 25 years, at least) glowing with short circuits in many places.

We had reported the cattle the previous evening on takeoff and landed back there around midnight. Lucky for us, since we were operating a much smaller aircraft, that the cattle must have still been grazing before going off to sleep on the nice warm runway before their rude awakening. That A-330 had a broken titanium beam in its main gear; our aircraft would probably have had a cockpit full of beef in a layer about two feet thick on the aft bulkhead with us forming the bottom six inches.

The last time they had a bad run of accidents the response was simply to ban the BAC 1-11 from passenger service, ignoring the underlying fact that standards were simply not being kept up. The Kano BAC 1-11 accident that was the 'last straw' killed a guy I had flown many hours with whom I had a lot of time for. It would have been much fairer to really dig into the problems and fix them before more people had to die, but that's just not the way Nigeria works.

Pretty much all the new guys look around in shock, wondering why no one has fixed obvious problems. Often they think, 'Hey, black people are stupid!' A smart person would see and fix the problem, is their mistaken assumption.

It can take a long time to understand the mad way everything really does function there; it's a perverted reality. Usually it comes down to someone screwing a few bucks out of finally, sort of, fixing something so that it can break again in six months, when more money shall be spent. Fix it 'propah' and the money tap is shut!

The pilots often end up pawns in this game. That's not right, perhaps, but it is arguably so. You don't want to operate shabby equipment into marginal airports? Fine, step aside, because there are guys stood in line for work there!

How many of you reading this have ever been hungry? Not 'hungry' as in, 'Gimme a Big Mac and a large fries,' but 'hungry' as in 'not enough money to live on.' You have to factor that in to a lot that goes on in Nigeria, I think. Life is lived close to the bone.

[etienne t boy]

Well said chuks! You are a man who has obviously been 'bitten by the mosquito' and Afrika is now in your blood. You can never leave, even if you never return, because there will always be some small part of Afrika there within you.
As you so rightly say though, it's all too often the pilots who are the unwitting (and then - sadly - 'late') pawns in the Nigerian way of doing aviation. There are some excellent Nigerian pilots as is shown by the fact that despite everyting they have to suffer, they manage not to have even more accidents flying marginally maintained aircraft, in marginal conditions into marginal, unmaintained airports. :mad:

RIP all those who were on the ill-fated aircraft.

[Avman]

FO JimmieJames, for a so-called pilot your comments about the B732 series would indicate that you know very little about aviation and what constitutes a safe aircraft.

[ambidextrous]

And it's not just fixed wing operations that are below standard:
Rotary operations within the Niger Delta & offshore are still taking place without a) SAR cover. b) Radar cover. c) ATIS weather info. d) Re-broadcast facilities for relay of flight following e) a comprehensive track structure to reduce the possibility of conflictions & that's just for starters.
with fraternal greetings, retired to SA, ambi
PS: PanAfrican owned Bell 412 5N-BDZ still lies at the bottom of the Gulf of Benin having arrived there in early(I think)2004, whilst engaged on a night casevac. Cause of the accident still unknown I believe, this is one crew who won't be going home to their loved ones anytime soon. Major oil companies, many of whom are to be found operating in Nigeria are still on course to return over $100 billion to their shareholders over the next 5 years it is reported. :ok:

[jondc9]

Avman, concerning FOJIMMIEJAMES


i've re-read FOJIMMIEJAMES' comments and they seem right on the mark...I can think of 4 737-200 crashes in aviation third world countries in the last year or so.

perhaps I have missed something AVMAN? Would you be specific?

While 737-200's or many other planes can be flown when getting old, they can't be flown safely if not well maintained.

FOJIMMIEJAMES also seems able to tell the difference between a 737 empenage and a 727 empenage.

[flash8]

What really makes me mad about all this is that, yet again, Nigerian officialdom will rant and rave, the President will order an investigation, then within weeks it'll all be forgotten in the light of increases in violence as first Christmas, then the Presidential elections approach. A year down the road, the results of the accident investigation will still not have been released and the skies will still be full of unsafe aircraft flying into airfields with no radar, unsafe runways and navaids that are often unserviceable. Maybe a few heads will have rolled, but nothing will have changed at all. :mad: :mad: . Just how many crashes does it take and how many lives will be lost before anything meaningful is done to improve aviation safety in Africa in general and Nigeria in particular?
Of course, this could be said of many developing countries, but you articulate the situation very well. As long as life is cheap in these places nothing will change. I don't look forward to quoting this thread next year.

[aerotransport.org]

Patuta, thanks for quoting us but you did not read well. Aircraft involved was 5N-BFK msn 22891 ex USAir/Metrojet. RIP.
www.aerotransport.org

[barit1]

Re the settling of high-time 732's to Nigeria & the like -

I'm not sure of the price of jet fuel there, but I bet it's pretty cheap. Thus the incentive to acquire & operate newer jets (less fuel burn, but high upfront cost) is pretty low. Couple this with penny-pinching maintenance, and the outcome is predictable.

But a well-maintained, upgraded 732 would be a fine bird to fly - just a wee thirsty though. It was built to see many cycles.

[Leezyjet]

Here are a couple of pics of an ADC a/c I took earlier this year parked up at LOS :-

http://www.fl400.com/Nigeria/images/PHTO0028.jpg

http://www.fl400.com/Nigeria/images/PHTO0029.jpg

This isn't the a/c involved in the accident today, this one had been parked up for some time. IIRC it was being used for spares for the other a/c in the fleet !!!.

:uhoh:

[fox niner]

:ooh: Is that grass on the roof? Or is it part of the paint scheme....:bored:

[aerotransport.org]

A/c involved had 53,000 hours and 40,000 cycles (51,563 and 38,917 as of 1/1/06)

/ATDB

[jondc9]

avman

fojimmie james is right on in his statements. first off, the pictures show a 737 not a 727

second, he indicates that 737-200's aren't doing that well safety wise...which is very true in the aviation third world.

barit1 is right, a well maintained 737-200 would do just fine...key words WELL MAINTAINED...also add well trained pilots, good wx radar and the like.

take a good look at one picture showing the horizontal stabilizer trim setting (exterior marks).


airtransport: thanks for posting ac previous history...I flew it about 7 years ago...well maintained then, more advanced version than some with very nice auto throttle, the big gyros and better autopilot than some earlier ones we had. Better wx radar too.(than earlier versions)

[MungoP]

Don't quite see where lack of money comes into it...Nigeria is not a poor country.. Lack of talent in its rulers and corruption yes... but that's not unique to Nigeria.

[surely not]

Before you all right off Nigerian Aviation as being totally unsafe, there are two operators that have the confidence of expats and locals alike. Both have had a heavy input into their operations by European owners and operate to European standards. Potentially there is a 3rd airline starting this week which has also had European input, though the two highest placed guys have just left a couple of days before the first flight which is unusual to say the least!

For sure the Govt. provided infrastructure is in a very poor state both in its modernity and its upkeep, and in a country with the wealth that Nigeria has this is bordering on criminal neglect. I also have pictures of ADC aircraft taken early this year (but I cannot upload them), and they show clean and outwardly well maintained aircraft, not aircraft that are out of service and suffering the effects of the high humidity, but then they wouldn't fit the wanted impression would they.

COndolences to all those affected by this disaster

[NDB17]

Gentlemen,

I worked for ADC briefly, and I knew the guys who were involved in this accident. I think we are jumping the gun here, lets get more info before we begin to speulate about the serviceability of the aircraft. The aircraft 5N-BED which is shown above has been retired from the fleet, it does not reflect the state of ADC's fleet.

[flight1203]

:ooh: Is that grass on the roof? Or is it part of the paint scheme....:bored:

you guessed right. a unique paint scheme. quite comon though

[Telstar]

ADC airlines seem to have a pretty appalling accident history, especially for an airline with so few aircraft. From Wikipedia:
The 1990s saw a number of accidents with ADC Airlines planes. In August 1994 and July 1995 two DC-9-31s were written off in non-fatal accidents, both at Monrovia-Spriggs Payne Airport. On 7 November 1996 a Boeing 727-231 en route from Port Harcourt to Lagos went out of control and crashed after a near miss incident killing all 143 on board. On 29 July 1997 a BAC One-Eleven 203AE landing at Calabar overshot the runway and an engine caught fire. There was one fatality.

[Outlook]

It's not a nice way for friends, colleagues or relatives to pick up such terrible news via a forum.

Sorry but I don't like the idea of passenger manifests being published in the public domain.

[CaptainSandL]

This from “This Day” Newspaper (http://www.thisdayonline.com/nview.php?id=61896)

Aviation Minister, Professor Babalola Borishade, yesterday pointed a finger of guilt at the pilot of the crashed ADC Boeing 737 aircraft, saying information available to him indicated that the pilot did not heed the directive that all planes should tarry for just ten minutes to allow a stormy weather clear before taking-off.
…
An impeccable source at the airport authoritatively told journalists yesterday that the pilot was warned by the Control Tower to exercise patience because of the bad weather but he was quoted as saying ‘God is in control.’

[AMM616]

It's not a nice way for friends, colleagues or relatives to pick up such terrible news via a forum.
Sorry but I don't like the idea of passenger manifests being published in the public domain.
I agree totally.

[vapilot2004]

Deepest sympathies to the families. Terrible loss.

I guessed it was a 732 when I heard the news this morning. They seem to be dropping out of the sky left, right and centre. Does anyone feel the same as I do, but surly isn't it time for this great work horse of the skies (B732), to be put to rest. It is sad that all the wealthier countries who were operating the 732's have sold them off to poorer operators in Africa and South America, and they seem to be the one's suffering.
Maybe I am wrong - interested to here comments.


Alaska Airlines and Delta logged nearly 8000 flights with the Boeing 737-200ADV in 2006. The average age of these aircraft is about 20 years old. Aloha Airlines operate older versions of the B732 (like the one involved in this crash) every day as well.



A/c involved had 53,000 hours and 40,000 cycles (51,563 and 38,917 as of 1/1/06)
/ATDB

DSO (design service objective - cycle limit) on the B737 classics is 75,000 with a demonstrated upper limit beyond 150,000 with proper maintenance.

[bluepilot]

Dear Moderators

Please remove the passenger manifest; extreem bad taste / judgement

[F4F]

How sad, one more tragedy to add to the troubled Nigerian aviation history, all RIP :(

Why did it happen... anybody who's been operating in and around the area will already hold a few of the answers, namely:

- weather, POOR (plenty of TS + SQ around. If not, smog and low clouds coupled with haze)
- infrastructure, POOR (approach/runway/taxi lighting dead, ILS signals unstable, marking non-existant, slippery runways/tarmac)
- ATC, POOR (questionnable vectors, overloaded, dated equipment)
- aircraft, POOR (dodgy maintenance, non-availibility of spare parts, old partly maintained equipment)
- political system, POOR (corruption, poverty, lack of overview)

These culprits make Nigeria one of the, if not the one, most dangerous countries to fly in...

Solutions anybody?

[Master Mariner]

Thanks for removing this from the forum.
Such an idiotic and unneccessary post can cause untold misery.

[nick s]

[QUOTE=vapilot2004;2936488] Aloha Airlines operate older versions of the B732 (like the one involved in this crash) every day as well.
[QUOTE]

Maybe not the best example, bearing in mind thier cabroilet incident:hmm:

[jondc9]

<"The pilot of the unfortunate accident refused to take advantage of the weather advice and the opinion of the (control) tower to exercise patience and allow the weather to clear for a safe take off," Borishade said at a news conference. (Watch the wreckage that nine people survived -- 1:52 Video)

"The discretionary power of the air crew to override advice from the tower has been largely responsible for unfortunate consequences in the history of air mishaps in this country," Borishade said. "The federal government has directed the National Civil Aviation Authority to look into this and prepare appropriate guidelines to stop this reckless abuse of crew discretionary power ... to ensure safety.">

FROM THE APand CNN INTERNATIONAL/


WX...just a mistake or pilot pushing?

[PAXboy]

Phone Wind... how many lives will be lost before anything meaningful is done to improve aviation safety in Africa in general ...
In my saddest and most cynical mood: There is no limit to the number of deaths that African aviation can sustain and never enough to get something done. Bear in mind that there is no collective force in Africa, as there is in Europe or the Middle East, or the ASEAN countries, where they seek to over ride their individual political and national needs for the benefit of the region. All African countries have their needs first and last. They see no purpose to advise/interfere with their neighbours as they do not wish that to happen to them in return.

flash8As long as life is cheap in these places nothing will change.
As an ex-Africa resident and family still in that continent, I don't think it's so much about life being 'cheap' as, rather, that life is not rich!

There is a fatalism in Africa that we no longer have in Europe and that is not aimed at those who see their fate in terms of a particular religion that is currently mentioned every day in the west. Many in Africa see their lives as being pre-destined, irrespective of which ever 'religion' they have and many have 'religions' that are nothing to do with any that we have heard of.

If you wonder why it is that Africans tolerate repressive regimes (Zimbabwe) ones that exterminate local people (Sudan) ones that embezzle funds (Take your pick) then you may get a line on why nothing is going to change. Whether you perceive it to be good or bad - that is Africa.

[Otterman]

Well put F4F. I fly into Abuja, Lagos and Kano on a regular basis for a major European carrier, and these are by far the most challenging destinations that we operate to. Not that the airports pose a particular problem, but the unpredictability of the infrastructure, the atrocious ATC, and at certain times of the year the weather make it stressful. Have had all the aerodrome lights fail on short final (twice on the same dark night), is a particularly pleasant memory.

There are no SID’s and STAR’s separating the inbound and outbound traffic flows (last time resulting in a clearance for a straight-in approach from FL200 at 25 miles out, yeah right), it comes down to having to sort things out yourself and telling ATC how you will be doing things as they appear clueless as to what an aircraft does and what it can do. Making things very inefficient, and dangerous. It took a mid-air from New Delhi to sort out this oversight in that airspace, but it is a lesson that applies to many other areas in the world, including this one.

Traffic is increasing in Nigerian airspace, and without improvements we will be returning to this subject more often than we already do.

The Nigerian government would do themselves a great favour by using some of the 45 billion dollars that their oil generates to improve their aviation infrastructure. But undoubtedly it will be the same as it always goes, lots of hot air, and nothing will change, shameful.

I would love IFALPA to grow themselves a set, and go to a catagory beyond a black star, it might be the only way to get something done.

My sympathies to the families.

Greetings O.

[Lancelot37]

It's not a nice way for friends, colleagues or relatives to pick up such terrible news via a forum.

Sorry but I don't like the idea of passenger manifests being published in the public domain.

It might not be nice but it's no different from reading it in the newspapers.
So where is the problem?

[ORAC]

Instant judgement by the Aviation Minister?

CNN: Crash pilot 'ignored storm advice' (http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/africa/10/30/nigeria.crash.ap/)

ABUJA, Nigeria (AP) -- The pilot of a Nigerian airliner that crashed a day earlier did not heed air traffic controllers' advice to wait for stormy weather to clear before taking off, the minister of aviation said Monday. The pilot was among 96 people killed in the crash; nine people survived.

While Aviation Minister Babalola Borishade did not directly blame pilot error in the third mass-casualty jet crash to hit this West African nation in less than a year, he said officials would move to try to curb pilots' power to ignore advice from the control tower......

Borishade said all of ADC's planes were grounded indefinitely and its flying license was suspended.......

"The pilot of the unfortunate accident refused to take advantage of the weather advice and the opinion of the (control) tower to exercise patience and allow the weather to clear for a safe take off," Borishade said at a news conference. "The discretionary power of the air crew to override advice from the tower has been largely responsible for unfortunate consequences in the history of air mishaps in this country," Borishade said. "The federal government has directed the National Civil Aviation Authority to look into this and prepare appropriate guidelines to stop this reckless abuse of crew discretionary power ... to ensure safety."

The minister said conditions at the time included rain, gusty winds, thunder and lightning, and that controllers thought the weather would worsen. "The air traffic controller re-emphasized the deteriorating weather condition and gave wind checks, which they (crew) acknowledged," he said.

Rowland Iyayi, head of the National Air Space Management Agency, said a Virgin Airlines flight that had been on the runway at about the same time as the ADC flight did not take off because of strong winds......

[MungoP]

Only time and the investigation that will now follow will confirm or eliminate weather as a factor in this accident... Having said that, on a number of occasions over the years I've elected to delay a departure due to CB acitivity in the vicinity of an airport.. (or decided to hold well clear) ... in spite of the fact that ( in Europe ) I was losing my slot time... I'm always amazed by the fact that so few other crews take advantage of this simple alternative to flying into unknown weather conditions... why so keen to rush to the scene of an accident ? In Africa and one or two other places that suffer from very severe weather, and with no slot times to concern ourselves with.. why not sit comfortably on the ground for 10 / 15 minutes and see how things develop ?

[Outlook]

It might not be nice but it's no different from reading it in the newspapers.
So where is the problem?

In the UK this information is normally withheld from the public domain until all next of kin have been informed.

(Mods, Thank you for removing the manifest)

Even after notification some people want to grieve in private and therefore I think it's in bad taste to post and off topic to this original thread.

[bobusse]

‘God is in control.’ ??

How sad, one more tragedy to add to the troubled Nigerian aviation history, all RIP :(

Why did it happen... anybody who's been operating in and around the area will already hold a few of the answers, namely:

- weather, POOR (plenty of TS + SQ around. If not, smog and low clouds coupled with haze)
- infrastructure, POOR (approach/runway/taxi lighting dead, ILS signals unstable, marking non-existant, slippery runways/tarmac)
- ATC, POOR (questionnable vectors, overloaded, dated equipment)
- aircraft, POOR (dodgy maintenance, non-availibility of spare parts, old partly maintained equipment)
- political system, POOR (corruption, poverty, lack of overview)

These culprits make Nigeria one of the, if not the one, most dangerous countries to fly in...

Solutions anybody?

- pilot,questionable decision ?

[fox niner]

Dear Sir Lancelot37,

As you are more than twice as old as I am, you certainly have had more life experience than me. However, posting the manifest on the web is not considered civilized by my standards (and other's). Regardless whether it was also published in an African newspaper.

[flown-it]

US Air had 2 types of 737-200. Those purchased by the original US Air had the -300 Mode control panel whereas those purchased by Piedmont were of an earlier vintage. They flew the same but the ex Piedmont A/C took you back a few decades in interfacing with the machine. Anyone know if this was ex Piedmont?

[unconcerned]

Delivered new to US Airways in October 1993 as N-323AU.

[Farrell]

Up to their old tricks I see....already blaming the pilot who can sadly no longer stand up for himself.

I'm afraid this accident will probably be no different than the others in this region. A media opportunity for some, a sh!tload of empty promises immediately after the incident, another bucketload of lies as to why it happened, expendable people fired or dead people blamed and then as quickly as the whole thing happened......forgotten.

[Istorik]

I removed the manifest myself, rather than a moderator. It is hard for me to understand a mentality of Western people. For us, wild Russians, it is normally to provide such kind of information, if it is available.
Sorry!

[Witraz]

One thing I learnt when I attended IFALPA Accident Analaysis meetings was regardless where in the world pilots are based and trained, they go to work to complete their daily task and would like to get home safely to their families. The standard of their training, level of experience etc. falls on the management and on what they are prepared to invest in safety, and this being overseen by their Governmental Department ensuring these issues. It is just so easy to blame the pilots. It also makes it easy for those of us who have the luxury of working for airlines who do invest heavily in their crews to smirk at the less fortunate and their operation.
For 'armada' with reference to the Nationair DC8 in Jeddah, there was a lot more behind the crew defferring the bald tyres.......locked stores, couldn't find key, heavy penalties being incurred for delays....pressure, pressure and more pressure on the crew to take the aircraft.
RIP to all

[jondc9]

dear FLOWN IT

the 737 in question was not one of the "BUBBA JETS", and had the newer equipment and -17's.

I posted that earlier in this thread, did you see it or is danny up to his tricks?

regards

jon

PS> Two things come to mind beyond bad wx and associated windshear/microburst etc.

incorrect loading/flap setting for takeoff ( and not zero, just insufficent)

or

flap retraction at too low a speed (failing to ''bug me up'' as it were)

one picture I saw show the stab trim at almost full nose up, as if compensating for improper flaps?

[zab flyer]

I agree totally.

nigerian aviation sector needs a lot of work to be done on it.The airspace,licensing,operators and crew needs to be brought to international standards for an improvement in air safety in the county.:sad:

[DownIn3Green]

FO JJ,

Grow up and speak when you know what you are speaking about.

F4F, Sorry you are not up to African aviation...it has nothing to do with Nigeria, only perceptions that the 1st world (Europe, USA) is far better than the 3rd world.

Guess you don't remember all of the accidents in the 50's and 60's in the USA involving WW2 "Skippers" who knew it all, but operated on the edge of the envelope.

Remember Capt HT "Dick" Merrill from EAL, and many, many others like him?

Nigeria didn't even have a/c then.

I've flown in Africa extensively including Nigeria, and it's the knowledge of the pilot, not the infrastructure that makes the difference.

Try an NDB over water at night into Tunis with ATC that speaks only "Aviation English": "Roger, report overhead".

Nigerian pilots are fine as far as I'm concerned, and "Oscar Man", if you're reading this, give me an e-mail....

[worldpilot]

The AP story with the time 12:10 EST (1710GMT) reports the plane to be a Boeing 737-2B7.

Worn tyres aren't just in Africa. I've seen pictures from Russia within the past 3 years with plenty of fabric instead of tread showing - on a domestic jet flight.

Seacue, you are damm right.:ok: I won't fly in Nigeria or in Russia. No kidding. It is a night mare.

[worldpilot]

What really makes me mad about all this is that, yet again, Nigerian officialdom will rant and rave, the President will order an investigation, then within weeks it'll all be forgotten in the light of increases in violence as first Christmas, then the Presidential elections approach. A year down the road, the results of the accident investigation will still not have been released and the skies will still be full of unsafe aircraft flying into airfields with no radar, unsafe runways and navaids that are often unserviceable. Maybe a few heads will have rolled, but nothing will have changed at all. :mad: :mad: . Just how many crashes does it take and how many lives will be lost before anything meaningful is done to improve aviation safety in Africa in general and Nigeria in particular?

Phone Wind, don't be hopefull though. It will be generations to come before lights appear at the end of the tunnel for Nigerians. There must be a marked change in mentality before any improvements surface in that of the world.

[jondc9]

for those who don't remember dick merril


Biography for
Dick Merrill

Birth name
Henry Tindall Merrill Mini biography

These days, it's a little hard to imagine the celebrity status once given to pilots, but for the generation prior to WW2, pioneer aviators were revered like astronauts were in the 1960's. While not as famous as Charles Lindbergh or Amelia Earhart, Henry Tyndall "Dick" Merrill ranked as a world-famous pilot by the 1930s - most notable for the 1936 so-called Trans-Atlantic "Ping Pong" ball flight in millionaire singer Harry Richman's heavily modified Vultee, christened 'Lady Peace' (which crashed on it's return journey due to Richman accidentally dumping the fuel) and completing the first commercial trans-Atlantic flight (co-piloted by 27-year old Jack Lambie) in history, flying a Lockheed Model 10E Electra, appropriately named the "Daily Express" that was specially commissioned to shuttle back newsreel footage of the May 10, 1937 coronation of King George VI (which resulted in a one-shot movie contract with low-budget Monogram Pictures for Atlantic Flight (1937). Dick had begun learning to fly while stationed in France in WWI but returned home to work on the Illinois Central Railroad as a fireman. He began his aviation career in earnest when he bought a 90-horsepower Curtiss JN4 "Jenny" for $600 at a war surplus sale in Columbus, Georgia in 1920. Merrill spent most of the 1920s barnstorming at air shows and eventually became an air mail service pilot, becoming its highest paid pilot (earning $13,000 in 1930 @ ten cents per air mile) before signing on with the floundering Eastern Airlines after it was restructured under the control of Capt. Eddie Rickenbacker with Merrill heavily promoted as its star pilot. Unlike some of his peers, Merrill was no hot shot. He was a deliberate and careful pilot, so well regarded that many celebrities (his friend Walter Winchell and even General Eisenhower during his 1952 presidential campaign) specifically requested to fly with him. Merrill's calm skills were evident during a flight in 1948 when the prop on an EAL Constellation tore through the fuselage at 10,000 feet off the Florida coast and killed a steward instantly. Dick was credited with saving the lives of 69 people on board. Outwardly humble and unassuming, Dick throughly enjoyed his celebrity and although a non-smoking tea-toadler, he loved the nightlife and hobnobbed with both the famous and infamous. If he had a vice, it was gambling, he habitually spent his high Depression-era income practically as fast as he earned it--- he was habitually broke and it took marriage to settle his financial irresponsibility. He married vivacious 22-year old actress Toby Wing in 1938- twice actually; her mother objected to their original marriage in Tijuana and the couple "officially" married later that June at the home of Sidney Shannon (an early EAL backer and close personal friend) in Fredericksburg, Virginia. She left Hollywood and retired from acting in late 1938 after a brief Broadway run in the Cole Porter musical flop, "You Never Know," that starred Clifton Webb, Libby Holman and Lupe Velez. Despite their 20+ year age difference, they enjoyed a remarkable 44-year marriage. The couple settled in Miami with Dick assigned the Eastern Airlines Miami to New York runs with occasional flights to South America. Too old for a commission, Dick signed on as a civilian MTD pilot and flew the China-Burma "Hump" in DC3's and C-46 Commandos during the war conducting critical supply lights and survey missions. He returned to Eastern Airlines after the war and officially retired from Eastern Airlines on Oct. 3, 1961 after flying a DC8 from New York to Miami, reputedly with the most air miles of any pilot in commercial aviation history, and ranked as the second most senior pilot with the airline. Dick continued to fly into his 80's whenever the opportunity arose, accompanying friend Arthur Godfrey on an around the world flight in 1966, set a speed record at age 78, delivering a Lockheed L-1011 Tri-Star from California to Miami at an average 710 MPH ground speed, and once flew an SST Concorde. Virtually no civilian pilot in the history of aviation piloted such a vast range of aircraft. After Dick's death in October, 1982, Toby spent the remainder of her life actively promoting her husband's rightful place in the annals of aviation history.

[dav99sod]

Hey Folks Relax

I operate into ABV a fair amount along with a lot of other African destanations, I am african myself but am lucky enough to fly shiny newish 777s ABV needs respect but so does JFK with all its 500ft VFR traffic . IN 20 years long haul 747 and 777 I have had more problems atc /wx enviroment wise in the States than in Africa. All countries have cowboys I have seen many more folks launching off into dodgy WX in the first world than in Africa. Easy on the accusations and lets wait for the facts. RIP and condolances to the families.

[jondc9]

dav99sod

do YOU have the wx at the time of the crash? there is a report that a virgin plane was waiting out the wind at the time.

and yes, many people have cowboyed it up in the US...perhaps it was 2 things that brought this 737 down...some wx and another as yet unknown factor.

[F4F]

bobusse, would you be so kind and use the [ QUOTE ]blabla[ /QUOTE ] to mark text that you take from other's messages, thanks!

DownIn3Green, fine for your perceptions... as for me I will, if I can, avoid Nigerian skies... seen enough things down there...
As for the rest of Africa, all fine with me, Tunesia being one of the best (compared say to the West and Central parts of the Black Continent), of course it helps if you speak a few words of French and Arabic :cool:

[Rhiannon]

FO JimmieJames, you've pretended to be an airline pilot on other forums and been busted every time. Give it up, dude. :=

[bobusse]

bobusse, would you be so kind and use the [ QUOTE ]blabla[ /QUOTE ] to mark text that you take from other's messages, thanks!



My apologize,wont happen any more.

[wileydog3]

Despite all the chaos and misinformation, some official was now quoted saying it was a 23-yr old Boeing 737-2B7!
This would make it one of the two former USAir / Metrojet planes that were flying for ADC.


You get a chill when an airplane you flew years earlier goes down...

[wileydog3]

you guessed right. a unique paint scheme. quite comon though


Former USAir paint scheme on the tail.. not MetroJet which had red tails.

How does one have a unique but quite common paint scheme at the same time?

[NDB17]

Flown It,
Aircraft is ex metrojet with 300 mcp, very nice aircraft.

Please forget we have an aviation minister in nigeria. He has no clue about aviation as an industry and flying as a profession. He believes he can take away authority from the PIC and give it to ATC.
Are we ever going to get out this madness, well like the saying goes, "evil flourishes bcos good men refuse to speak up". As long as we nigerians believe moving out is the solution to this insanity, these morons will continue to pull us back to the stone age. I am guilty of this and I have made up my mind to move back in the new year. Enough is a enough.

[Dangagan]

My sympathy to the loved ones of all those who lost their lives.

So long as top Aviation Officials in Nigeria earn less than $500 a month as civil servants, the incentive and latitude exist to be easily compromised. The Nigerian Aviation Authority should be independent and brought in line with international standards in enforcing regulations, operations, management and adequate pay for officials

[jondc9]

wiley

I was on metrojet and recall that there were a FEW silver birds with the name metrojet slapped on the side and that the red livery were not on all planes...

and yes, I flew this one too.

the non bubbajet 737-200's were pretty nice.

while wx may be a factor, I can also imagine improper loading or mishandling of flaps might be part of the problem.

did you see the position of the trim(stab)...a little funny


jon

[piombo]

My sympathy to the loved ones of all those who lost their lives.

So long as top Aviation Officials in Nigeria earn less than $500 a month as civil servants, the incentive and latitude exist to be easily compromised. The Nigerian Aviation Authority should be independent and brought in line with international standards in enforcing regulations, operations, management and adequate pay for officials

Right! And that should apply to every country. Maybe the international regulators should stand up for that.

[Wizofoz]

Guess you don't remember all of the accidents in the 50's and 60's in the USA involving WW2 "Skippers" who knew it all, but operated on the edge of the envelope.


Yes, and we remember a conserted effort by authorities and companies to identify and rectify the causes of accidents, leading to the incredible degree of saftey now afforded. It seems you are somehow defending African aviation by saying it's only 60 years behind the rest of the world!!

Try an NDB over water at night into Tunis with ATC that speaks only "Aviation English":

In this day and age we shouldn't have too.....:rolleyes:

[RoyHudd]

It must be terrible to attempt to work as a professional pilot or ATC person in Nigeria, or almost anywhere in Africa. I understand this well, having been a resident on 126.9 for years, dodging other traffic while they dodged us. Conditions, training, standards, pay are all lamentably poor. And remain so.The culture of aviation is primitive, which is not at all the same to say as to criticize the good people who work in the industry. ATC could be good, if the money earned was not swallowed up by the greedy people at the top. Same for flying, or aircraft maintenance. Or airport facilities, like runways and lighting.

Blame the corrupt management, and corrupt governments, each and every .... time.

And please, dav99sod, no more deluded comparisons with US flight safety. Utter and idiotic nonsense, prejudiced in favour of the poor Africans. Does no favours. The 2 environments are not comparable, statistically or practically. The guys need help.

[punkalouver]

For 'armada' with reference to the Nationair DC8 in Jeddah, there was a lot more behind the crew defferring the bald tyres.......locked stores, couldn't find key, heavy penalties being incurred for delays....pressure, pressure and more pressure on the crew to take the aircraft.
RIP to all


Going from memory of reading that report, it wasn't bald tires but low pressure tires that was the problem. This makes them heat up faster during taxi and I believe it was a long taxi to the runway and hot out as well. Apparantly unlike cars, airliner tires can have quite low pressure and still appear normal.

[LongJohnThomas]

I think you all should take a few minutes to look into the African Aviation forums.
I don't think the aviation workers in Nigeria really have a choice.
Its a country who's government has the populace oppressed!
A lot of the professionals in Nigeria know whats right and surely would like things run at levels comparable to anywhere else worldwide.
The problems are entirely from the top of government and those currently running the aviation sector in the country.
It still remains the one country i know that has first officers with 7000 hours of which 4-5000 are time on large jets, 45 year olds and are not captains because they are competently incapable, but the older generation cannot bear to see the younger ones as commanders.
The oppression is more than the eye can see! The younger generation IS up to speed with the rest of the world, but will NEVER get the chance to run things the way they should be.
All said, it's sad, unfortunate, true and utterly disgusting!
Once again, my condolences to those departed. May the lord grant them eternal rest.:(

[Rani]

So what is the latest on the investigation, and how long does it take the NTSB usually to decipher, analyze, and publish initial reports? The FDR/VDRs are in excellent condition and they were flown to Washington 3 days ago.

[MungoP]

Rani...
I take it that that's not a serious question... the accident only took place 8 days ago ! How long does it take in Europe or the US to come up with even the initial findings ? Just because you may think you have the answer... that's not the way it's done... several hundred possiblities have firstly to be proved not to have had any effect on the accident...

[Rani]

Read my question again, and please be objective. I posed a simple question (as I am not an expert in the issue of air accident investigations). I do not claim to have any answers...Instead I am seeking them.

[LongJohnThomas]

Well, if the data was only flown out of nigeria 3 days ago, i take it that it reached the U.S. on friday.
And i would think it would take a whole lot longer to make even the slightest speculation as to the cause of the accident.
Mungo P, i totally agree with you mate.

[hobie]

Rani .... have a look through AAIB's October 2006 Bulletin and download/read through some of the reports listed ..... it will give you some idea of typical time scales and complexity of investigations ....

http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/publications/bulletins/october_2006.cfm