London frequency congestion.

[BSD]

Morning and greetings to all you UK ATC folks out there!

This is a sort of WIHIH question with regard to the way London's ATC sectors work.

Saturday lunchtime, we found ourselves winging it home to an airfield north of Heathrow. The expected descent to FL340 came through from France prior to the boundary, followed by a frequency change to 135.05 (London) as we crosssed the boundary.

Change of frequency to London then made, to hear absolute pandemonium on the frequency.

The lady controller was literally working her socks off. We, like several other aircraft coming on to the frequency were completely unable to check in, and simply had to wait our turn for the Lady to call us. The Lady it seeemd to me was massively overloaded, but I should add coping well.

We were on frequency for at least 5 minutes before contact was established. The workload of the controller on this frequency was UNBELIEVABLE!

There were several other aircraft in the same boat, all unable to make a call, and waiting to be "summoned" with a call, and a clearance all at the same time. One received his clearance so late he was unable to make the level restrictions on his allocated STAR. Another queried his cleared level at least twice, and never resolved it satisfactually before being transferred

Eventually we were passed on to 127.95 (at least I think it was that frequency) where calm was restored. Only one or two flights, unhurried, unflusterd R/T with time to read back properly. Altogether, a general lowering of heart rate, blood pressure etc for everyone involved!

I have the utmost respect for the UK's ATC services. This frequency congestion, and the stress resulting from it, is an extraordinary burden for you in ATC. To say nothing of the uncomfortable feeling in the flight deck!

My questions are these: how does this happen? what can be done?

In my company, we habitually brief well before this sector, as we know it is going to be hectic. Some 2 years ago, one of our crews filed an ASR they were so alarmed by it all, yet that does not seem to have had any effect.

With my thanks to you all for your services, and a heartfelt hope for a better tommorow, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

BSD.

[BOBBLEHAT]

I think most ATCO's in the London area (and probably the whole UK) have become used to operating very busy frequencies without realising it - not that we have much choice. It's worth noting that a frequency can be congested but workload, in complexity terms, can be relatively low therefore the controller is not overburdened but it might not sound that way to you.

Most sectors are capapble of splitting which allows 2 (or more, depending on sector) contollers to work the airspace sharing the planes. Some splits are good and a fair division of work and some splits are notoriously bad with an uneven share or perhaps the split itself is so cumbersome to work with that it is easier to ride it out with frequency congestion. I think that over the last few years the system has got us splitting our sectors much earlier. Some sectors just stay split all day now. The problem arises when you have split i.e shared all the work that you can and you are still too busy. This is where the traffic managers and supervisors are supposed to monitor demand, traffic flows and lots of other things to ensure that controllers and sectors do not become overloaded. Most of the time it works, sometimes it doesn't.

I think that as ATCO's we have a tendency to allow ourselves to work with highly congested frequencies too often. There is no official definition of overloaded and as a result we just get on with it. How would you tell us if you had a problem?

If you feel that the frequency is too busy then file your ASR. I've seen investigations into them so I know they are taken very seriously (by NATS) - I can't speak for other ATS providers. NATS say that safety is it's top priority but it is becoming more and more led by commercial pressures, so at some point someone needs to draw a line in the sand, letting them know that you can't just keep shoving aeroplanes into the system and not expect a degradation in safety. You also have to remember that safety is measured by the incidents that actually happen and not by the fact that we are exposing ourselves to further risk and could happen. On the downside for you (pilots) if we take aircraft out the system you're going to be sitting on the ground for much longer than you already do.

I'm sure others will have their say and probably contradict me, as is the nature of this place but I hope this was of some use.

[120.4]

And the real concern here is...

Somebody yells Mayday (or perhaps needs to but cannot) and doesn't get the service that he deserves/needs. It is not an acceptable way to operate a safety related industry - the regulator needs to act.:ugh:

.4

[BDiONU]

And the real concern here is...
Somebody yells Mayday (or perhaps needs to but cannot) and doesn't get the service that he deserves/needs. It is not an acceptable way to operate a safety related industry - the regulator needs to act.:ugh:
.4
The answer is 121.5 or sqk 7700 both are guaranteed to attract attention immediately and give you the service you deserve/need (assuming you really have an emergency).

BD

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<The answer is 121.5 >>

I would suggest that in the airspace in question that is very definitely NOT the thing to do. In a busy ATC environment, changing frequency without saying anything could be immensely dangerous.. but I'm sure that all professional aircrew know that.

If you change to 121.5 the RAF people will be faced with a major problem - someone in a busy CAS environment is suddenly working them unannounced so they have to go through the process of liaising what's happening with the controller of the sector where the aircraft is located so the workload is multiplied many times. I know that - I've been at the other end of the phone wondering WIHIH and desperately trying to avoid someone working the RAF.

Lastly, the controller who was working you is suddenly faced with a "radio failure" to add to his problems.

If you squawk the appropriate code it will be seen immediately..

[BDiONU]

<<The answer is 121.5 >>
I would suggest that in the airspace in question that is very definitely NOT the thing to do. In a busy ATC environment, changing frequency without saying anything could be immensely dangerous.. but I'm sure that all professional aircrew know that.
If you change to 121.5 the RAF people will be faced with a major problem - someone in a busy CAS environment is suddenly working them unannounced so they have to go through the process of liaising what's happening with the controller of the sector where the aircraft is located so the workload is multiplied many times. I know that - I've been at the other end of the phone wondering WIHIH and desperately trying to avoid someone working the RAF.
Lastly, the controller who was working you is suddenly faced with a "radio failure" to add to his problems.
If you squawk the appropriate code it will be seen immediately..
But if, as was suggested, the frequency was too congested to get a word in edgeways.......
BTW I speak as a former D&D controller ;-)

BD

[A I]

I have to agree with HD (again!). Changing to 121.5MHz in CAS is not a very good idea. Squawk the appropriate code and you will get the almost undivided attention of someone who can help you immediately. The D&D controller is going to have to telephone the sector in which the emergency is happening and this must increase the workload in what might be a very busy situation.

On the subject of RTF congestion then if anybody thinks that safety was compromised then a report MUST be written. Preferably do this through the company but if this is not possible for any reason then use CHIRP. I know that these anonymous reports are treated with the utmost respect and will be fully investigated by NATS or whoever is involved.

A I

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<But if, as was suggested, the frequency was too congested to get a word in edgeways....... BTW I speak as a former D&D controller ;-)>>

I don't personally believe a frequency can ever be that congested. In a real emergency the guy simply starts transmitting Mayday, etc and within a few seconds everything shuts up.

OK.. so you're sitting in the D&D Cell and suddenly on 121.5 "Mayday, XXX123, Boeing 747 passing FL290, 10 miles south of Lydd with a 2-engine flameout" heading 330 unable to maintain height". What exactly would you do, apart from acknowledging the call? You do not have contact with the dozen other aircraft in the area, nor do you know what they are doing/about to do. Presumably you attempt to make contact with LACC - and you probably don't have a direct line to the appropriate sector. Meanwhile, the civvy ATCO on that sector is trying to talk to someone busting his level...... Sounds like a Hollywood movie to me!

[30W]

BSD,

Hurn, 135.05, is notorious for frequency congestion, even when split. The airspace will be re-sectorised next year so will hopefully solve some of it's problems (ATCO's may be able to offer views here.....!)

I suggest you DO file an ASR. There is no record of your concern otherwise. I have filed several, indeed 2 this summer for RT congestion.

Both LACC and LTCC controllers are excellent, I believe that due investigation of such occurances are a positive move for both sides of the industry, and should hopefully not be treated as a complaint.

30W

[BDiONU]

[QUOTE]I don't personally believe a frequency can ever be that congested. In a real emergency the guy simply starts transmitting Mayday, etc and within a few seconds everything shuts up.
I agree but the poster stated it simply was too busy and that was the premise on which I based my answer. :)
OK.. so you're sitting in the D&D Cell and suddenly on 121.5 "Mayday, XXX123, Boeing 747 passing FL290, 10 miles south of Lydd with a 2-engine flameout" heading 330 unable to maintain height". What exactly would you do, apart from acknowledging the call? You do not have contact with the dozen other aircraft in the area, nor do you know what they are doing/about to do. Presumably you attempt to make contact with LACC - and you probably don't have a direct line to the appropriate sector. Meanwhile, the civvy ATCO on that sector is trying to talk to someone busting his level...... Sounds like a Hollywood movie to me!
1st thing is to wake up and put my book down ;) then get the guy squawking 7700, if he cannot maintain height then he's going to drop, the 7700 will alert everyone else to get out of his way.
2nd contact the controller concerned, D&D have a LOT of direct lines (and pages of speed dials) and the controllers know the airspace so know who SHOULD be controlling the aircraft, supervisors are also a good point of contact ;)

BD

[anotherthing]

Heathrow Director/AI

Why change frequency to 121.5??

Why not use the second box? Good airmanship demands that it should be dialled up on there anyways unless the A/C is talking on company discreet.


That is what D and D are there for!! Who cares if it causes the Crabs to to stop feeding the tropical fish, put down the copy of 'Nuts' and do some work!!

Joking aside - the D and D cell is highly professional and very good at what it does; they are there to be used and this is one of the instances that would be 100% correct to use them!

2 pilots - 2 frequencies - it's not hard.

[rodan]

2 pilots - 2 frequencies - it's not hard.

F/O: "Ok Cap'n, London Centre say turn right 20. We're gonna live!"

Cap'n: "Whut?? London Control say turn LEFT 20! Maybe this wasn't such a hot idea."

F/O: "Hey, I'll flip a coin. Heads we go with London, tails with the Mil."

[anotherthing]

Rodan,

You need to refresh yourself on how D and D works!!

They Liaise with other units (Mil/Civvy) and then it is decided who has Operational Control. D and D will retain Executive Control until the incident is resolved.... this is a monitoring role.

Operational Control is handed to the unit best placed to deal with it - in this case LACC Hurn.

In the instance above D and D would call the OPS room Sup and inform them that they had been called by ABC123 and explain the situation - thus allowing the airspace controller to become aware of the problem and take neccesary action.

They would not Arbitrarily give that A/C a turn. They would tell it to Squawk emergency at the very most before doing anything else - after consultaiton with (in this case) London Control.

The instruction to squawk emergency would be enough to alert the controller and make them call the A/C 'out of turn'.

The scenario given a few posts above was what happens if an A/C cannot get on R/T and has an emergency.

In normal operations, the A/C should either go to previous frequency and explain they cannot get on RT - the controller will have a direct line to the next sector OR continue as cleared to it's clearance limit. It's a known traffic environment. Just because pilots cannot get onto the RT doe snot mean we do not know they are there!!

Having said all the above, I am in no way condoning the mount of frequency congestion that occurs - but at the moment, it's not a manpower issue, its volume of traffic on sectors that have been split as much as possible already!

[oceans 11]

I agree with HD as a hurn controller the last thing I would want is a pilot with a problem on a busy frequency talking to someone else even if it was on his no. 2 box. As stated if he squawks 7700 it will get everyones attention pronto, the hurn controller with the full picture in his sector will know what to do and the planner can contact tc and other surrounding sectors of the problem. Otherwise you will have two pilots talking to two different people and when d+d can ring hurn they will take up the workload of a planner.

[London Mil]

As a current D&D type, I would be with HD here. The thought of someone pitching-up unannounced on 121.5 in the midddle of a very busy TMA makes me nervous, very nervous. Conversely, a nice bright, flashy 7700 will wake everyone-up, especially the guy who is meant to be talking to you. If that doesn't work, by all means give us a call, we will stop feeding the fish (they disappeared some time back), we will not put down our copy of Nuts (more likely to be OK or Hello nowadays) and we will endeavour to 'save the day'. :)

Proud to Serve :eek: :eek: :eek:

[BSD]

Morning! Me again folks!

Firstly, thank you all very much for taking the time and trouble to reply. All very informative, and helpful in understanding the make-up of the system, and the complexities involved.

30W, Heathrow Director, and Bobblehat's replies make for particularly interesting and enlightening reading.

I guess I'd always seen an ASR filing as a sort of "nuclear option", but reading your views of how it could help changes my view somewhat. Looks like I'm heading that way this coming weekend - I'll asses it carefully! CHIRP would certainly seem a worthwhile gesture.

One thing I'm not comfortable with at all though, is Anotherthings suggestion of using box 2. I'd not advocate this at all, particularly in a sector like that of Hurn on 135.05. I feel there you need no distractions whatever, and both of you listening, concentrating, monitoring vigillantly!

For that reason, I know we forego any extraneous calls, say to company ops, handling agents, engineering etc. Splitting the comms would be like single pilot. If we haven't made those calls before we get on to 135.05, they don't get made until well after, hence the number of times we call Essex with an out-of date ATIS!

Similarly I'm very much with HD on 121.5s use. My view is simple; if a "mayday" is called for, it must be made to the controller you are with at that time. That way everyone is clearly in the picture.

Lastly let me endorse 30W's view of LATCC and LTCC. I thouroughly appreciate the job you all do. There are times when you are obviously under huge pressure, yet you make it all work seamlessly - thank you all!

BSD.

[London Mil]

Pedant mode.

Isn't the Hurn freq '135.05' actually 135.050? :}

[rodan]

Rodan,

You need to refresh yourself on how D and D works!!

Thanks, I am aware of how D&D functions, just my small attempt at satire.

I still think you're wrong, though. In the situation described, I fail to see what possible advantage can be gained by calling D&D (increasing aircrew workload, sector controller workload when D&D call them, and slowing everything down) when simply selecting #7700 will gain the undivided attention of the sector controller, the person best placed to help them at that time.

[120.4]

So are we saying it is okay to run the frequencies this busy because if all else fails there is always D & D?:mad:

.4

[055166k]

BSD
You have absolutely no comprehension of the severe intimidation that goes on at LACC Swanwick. Management pressure to run overload traffic levels is almost unbearable......they will not restrict traffic and they have no staff to split sectors. Our professionalism is ridiculed by comments such as one recently made that suggested controllers put their professional ethics before loyalty to the company.
Now I could have made that up couldn't I? Want to see the transcript of the whole speech? Don't bother!
Serious bit next...........if you feel that the sector load and particularly the R/T load was excessive then please phone Swanwick [London ACC] as soon as is practical. The R/T tapes and Radar recordings can be re-run very easily. Just remember roughly where and when it occurred.......you will be doing us one big big favour.......and the result can only be better service delivery for you all.

[timzsta]

If ATC cant contact an aircraft in this day age we know what is likely to follow - interception and a mountain of paperwork and media coverage.

Vice versa and it doesn't seem to be so much of a fuss, not a fault on either side I hasten to add just seems to be the way it is.

I am only a humble instructor at an airfield in the SE but there were times over the summer where the Radar frequency at my airfield was overloaded to the extent I have had to orbit clear of the ATZ until I could get a word in after several minutes on frequency.

RT frequency overloading is becoming an issue and we should all seek to do something about it if we get that "worried feeling" no matter where or what we are flying.