Ridiculous and Dangerous RT

[captainpaddy]

Hi All!

I wanted to get some opinions from you all about what seems to be a new epidemic on the radio. I speaking of the pilots who say ridiculous things like:

"Eh, London, from XYZ123, we're running a fair bit behind schedule this evening and are trying to make up as much time as possible. We would really appreciate if you could give us any direct routings."

AAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!! :ugh: Is it just me or this just the most condescending and patronising thing possible. Do they really think that by saying they are late will make ATC give a direct routing where they otherwise wouldn't??? And what about using up A LOT of valuable air time.

The other day I heard the worst one so far:

"Eh, we have some passengers on board who are hoping to connect to the BA123 from Manchester later this evening, but we don't expect to be there till XX:XXpm, so it'll be too tight for them. Is there any chance you could give us a more direct routing, so we can try to help them out?"

Apart from anything else, they were on London freq at the time. Considering how far they had left to fly, direct bloody Manchester could only have saved them a max of 2 minutes!!! :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

:{

Can anyone please explain the way these peoples brains work? Surely ATC will give you what direct routings they can. If you don't think they are, a simple "request direct XYZ" will do??

Tomorrow, I'm going to say:

"Eh, London, we've been early all day now and it looks like we'll be at least 15 minutes ahead of schedule this evening. Is there any chance we could hold at Goodwood for let's say, 2 laps, before we carry on???"

Thanks. I needed to get that off my chest. :O

[45 before POL]

Agree with you on this one. Lost count how many times been asked. Minor issues like a great big danger area in way or military activity.
Try to give direct whenever possible(subject to traffic and airspace restrictions). :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

[Kirk Biddlecombe]

Out of interest, how do you respond to such requests - by ignoring them? Or do you have a go at them? :E

[JazzyKex]

May seem odd Capt Paddy, but recently with some pretty massive tailwinds over the pond we have done exactly what you said!

"Any chance we can slow down with 200 miles to go so we don't get there too early!!!"

[ATSA_Grunt]

A bit like "I'm ATC, any chance of an upgrade?"

[Jerricho]

Heh.


Now that is ridiculous :rolleyes:

[ATSA_Grunt]

Well you scratch my back... LOL

[rolaaand]

I hate this. It's common for EGPH departures now. Checking in on an already busy frequency "Eh Scottish good morning ehh poshjet123 ehh we appreciate your busy but ehh were running late and it really would help us an awful lot if ehh you could see your way clear to ehh letting us cut the corner a bit thank you kindly"
It's a waste of r/t time,pure and simple. I ignore it,no point wasting more time berating someone. I'm always as expeditious as the traffic and airspace allows me to be. As if the fact that a flight is late will influence my decision!

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

"Eh, London, we've been early all day now and it looks like we'll be at least 15 minutes ahead of schedule this evening. Is there any chance we could hold at Goodwood for let's say, 2 laps, before we carry on???"

Nothing unusual there. A well known British airline used to do this at Heathrow quite often until we put a stop to it. Something to do with the stands not being ready..

[London Mil]

Out of interest, how do you respond to such requests - by ignoring them? Or do you have a go at them? :E


A "Roger" normally does for me.

[throw a dyce]

Many years ago I had a Bae 146 inbound from EGPH,in class G direct to a 6 mile final 34 at EGPD.A straighter line cannot be drawn.Speed about Warp 9.This Air P ''UK '' ey said ''I see we are taking the scenic route tonight''.
I was tempted to say unless you start slowing down then you'll end up in Overton Scrap yard as well. Running off the end is a common problem with 146's and Aberdeen.
I just said Roger,and vectored him out for 15 miles instead.:ok:

[peatair]

ATC has always tried to expedite traffic as much as possible and controllers take pride in being able to do so. When busy ATC does not need these requests which use up valuable RT time. When not busy the controller will usually offer something more expeditious. Of course the other tactic is to ask for something to "avoid weather." Naturally, what is asked for will usually also be a more expeditious route!

[captainpaddy]

Phew!

Thank goodness it's not just me! I've mentioned this to a few of my colleagues but they've never seemed to be bothered by it. It drives me crazy!

My vote is for the next time you guys get a stupid request like this on a quiet evening, you should politely point out the fact that they are wasting valuable air time and that they have already been given the most direct routing available considering other traffic.

It reminds me of those who incessantly ask whether they can expect holding approaching DAYNE or MIRSI at MAN despite the fact that ATC are already at capacity. THE STAR SAYS DAYNE/MIRSI IS THE CLEARANCE LIMIT! I only assume that it takes less physical exertion to push the PTT than it takes to push the three buttons required to enter the hold on the FMS! Before you fuelaphobics have a go, every single crew I've heard ask this question and then subsequently be given multiple laps of holding have never complained or mentioned fuel at all. They obviously had enough to do it in the first place.

This really is becoming a great counselling session for me! Thanks!

:ok:

[055166k]

captainpaddy
doesn't do any real harm if we aren't busy......R/T loading will be a good guide. We can make extra effort [increased co-ordination] subject workload.
If the same airline, or even same pilot, makes a habit of it.........different outcome! Do you recognise regular controller voices like we recognise pilots?
We did have "Request Air" [not real ident of course] some years ago.....Our initial response to check-in was jokingly..."go ahead with request".....it can be particularly non-productive.
On the "is there much holding?" question......no harm in asking if R/T load fairly low......in fact I view that as a reasonble request.....and if it does not disrupt my primary function I will respond as accurately as my available data permits.[Especially for oceanic inbounds].

[Baron buzz]

CaptainP,

I agree with you totally. I am a FO and when it is not my leg i hate being asked to make dumb RT requests to ATC when the Captain says so. This is not a blanket dig at captains by the way, so do not take it as such. But, back to the point, when a captain says "just ask him this, that and the other", you feel a right frozen Christmas turkey, but what can you do!?

Half the time when either they, or me when forced, asks about holding at MIRSI (EGCC) then they say "ill just find out". Sometimes the information isnt obvious to them, because perhaps its in the next sector. Why not just wait, have it in the FMS anyway, and have a look at TCAS which sometimes paints a nice picture if your that bothered. Besides, its fairly obvious when there is going to be holding at EGCC - most mornings! I have never held for more than a few laps anyway, so its harldly a disaster.

Rant over!

[captainpaddy]

055166K,

Fair enough I suppose! If you feel that way, then I guess it may not be the big issue I think it is. However, regarding holding, I am referring to the busy days. Even if it was quiet, I have always been given instructions for leaving the holding fix before reaching it, or, completed at least one lap before moving on. This would suggest that we weren't holding just because ATC forgot about us, which is the only reason I can think of for asking in the first place.

Also, you had said

"We can make extra effort [increased co-ordination] subject workload."

Surely you don't mean that you make an extra effort just because they said they were running late? Wouldn't a simple request like "request direct XYZ" get the same extra effort? My whole point is that it seems that these guys think that they'll get direct somewhere out of sympathy! I feel that is extremely insulting to ATC!

[captainpaddy]

Baron Buzz,

Me too!

:{

[Captain Mercurius]

Dear Captainpaddy ,

I have read with interest your comments, about the ridiculous requests on ATC.

This is we can call the “new breed pilots” flying around, and providing “very safe” operations to the general public.

If we analyze such ludicrous requests by CRM point of view, these people display that they seriously lack of Situational Awareness.

If we try to see it from the professional aspect or point of view, many of us is already used to these “company saviors” who do anything , to improve production , without any regard to safety, without any concern who are the other traffics around, ANYTHING WATSOEVER !

Provided they look good on the Boss eyes, and climb the ladder quickly. :hmm:

They will fly, even without fuel or wings, if it was possible.:eek:

It is not only ridiculous, but shameful a so called grown person, to trigger the button, and try to explain his passengers are getting a connecting flight, and for that the ATC, should collaborate to expedite them to gain 2 MINUTES!

Like the ATC does not collaborate, or even implying that the operational problem of certain airline, becomes an ATC problem, this is ridiculous.

Or even making sarcastic comments, like as “scenic route” meanwhile they still keeping warp 9 on a traffic pattern were the legal speed, suppose to be already the one, in the STAR chart, and class airspace.
Therefore, if they are over speeding, they should be served with a nice ticket to make them to cool down.

I wish to conclude with the following statements:

It is a long time I am in aviation, and had to live with idiots, triggering the button without even asking or explaining, before to make these kinds of requests to ATC.
Likely, my airline had the “right medicine “for them on that time.:*

Whenever approaching or departing out of UK, always I was given the best of the ATC could give me, and this is my view until today.
Whenever I needed to change my heading for WX reason, they always tried to accommodate my request.

Several times, I had to deal with late departure or late arrival, due to several reasons, with many passengers on connecting flights at destination.
However, the mater it was dealt with the company’s concern department, even giving much up to date information by radio or ACARS, so they could themselves make the required arrangements to accommodate the transiting passengers.

This is NOT, by all means the responsibility of the ATC, but of a professional pilot, with a professional attitude.
Safe flying to all

Mercurius

[Jerricho]

Therefore, if they are over speeding, they should be served with a nice ticket to make them to cool down.


Ooooo, I like that one. :ok:

[Gonzo]

I had a great one the other day from a certain major customer's last flight to a German destination:

"Delivery, this is ABC123, we're running late tonight and we require to be airborne by time 10, otherwise we will get caught by the jet ban. We'll be ready just before the hour"....

This was from LHR T1 for a 09R departure.

"ABC123, roger. I'm afraid that sounds impossible. I don't think there's any way you'll get airborne within ten minutes from that stand."

"No, you don't understand (always a good one saying that to ATC!), we require [my emphasis] priority to get away before time 10"

"Roger"

Of course, no priority was shown. :ugh:

I was expecting him to request 27R for departure!

It's not the first time this has happened for this flight, either.

[Jerricho]

Ryanair could have made it ;) :E

[MinimumRest]

Yep, they taxi so quickly they could probably get airbourne from the taxiway ;)

[Jerricho]

250kts below 10,000 or on the ground :E

(Sorry Capt. Paddy, back to the thread................)

[howflytrg]

A quick request for the German fraturnity out there who operate into a certain airfield in southern Spain. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD STOP REQUESTING SLOT ADJUSTMENTS ON THE :mad: ING TWR FREQUENCY!!!!!! Pls use the ground frequency and keep the air clear so that other aircraft can call finals and not have to go-around! I even had one chap try and read the entire of ICAO DOC 4444 to the controller whilst i was on an overhead rejoin. Got around to finals with him still blabing on then had to abandon all hope of recieving landing clearence, even after trying to step on him to give the controller a hint.

Anywho, summer season over, rant over.


Next summer just remember to put your towels out on the runway the night before ok?

[loubylou]

Or being asked what the reason for the delay is on ground first thing!!! Instead of saying "traffic" I might start telling 'em it's because I'm breaking in new shoes!

louby

[GBALU53]

Why not comply with the rules

The rules are there for a reason if the airlines and operations worked closer together a lot of the R.T to Air Traffic would not be there required and things would move on a lot better.

Rules can be adjusted to suit at times but not to bend or flont them, it can work both ways pilots can try and upset Air Traffic but Air Traffic in the end can have the upper hand by making life a little more difficult and say on arrival give a bit of a punishment routing or somethink like that.

As he would say up stairs stick to the rules and we all will have a good day.

[anotherthing]

Ryanair could have made it


That is the good thing about RYR and EZY - they are very strict about check in times.

Other carriers should take a leaf out of their books. I have no sympathy for these people that yo usee on TV who leave home intending to get to the airport with 20 whole minutes to spare, then get stuck in traffic.

2 minutes late for check in is as bad as 20 minus late... if you are late you are late.

Then carriers might find that they actually are ready in time to make slots realistically!!

[GuruCube]

Then carriers might find that they actually are ready in time to make slots realistically!!
Or the idiotic charter airlines who file 10mins earlier than expected to swindle the slot times!! Ive had many arguements with flightcrew who think they are filed at a time... "No sir, you are filed 10 minutes ago..."
Grrrr.... :ugh:

[055166k]

captainpaddy
I must be a weirdo in "controllerworld" because I do make the extra effort on occassion. I've a pretty good idea if you're late or not...if it's a regular flight.
However....if you bug me when I'm busy.....I can say "negative" in a manner that will melt your headset. If I find out a particular request is based on a lie.....I do the same sectors all the time.....work it out!
As for priorities, how do you think Concorde operated all those years. I worked that machine for nearly the whole of its working life and the closest I got to it was when it flew over Reading. Never quite sure how they allocated Fam Flights on that.......no surprise that Heathrow staff did rather well!
From the replies it would seem that different airspace affects the situation....the ground and terminal airspace scenarios are densely packed with little room to accommodate expedition requests. My sky is much bigger and perhaps that is why my colleagues and I have more flexibility. [workload permitting]

[Skipness One Echo]

So was the flight cancelled( and 100+ men women and kids stranded in the wrong country overnight??)Was that the moral here?

[captainpaddy]

055166k,

I'm feeling a bit sheepish about my tirade now! :O

But, just to be sure we don't misunderstand eachother......

I don't mean to suggest that a controller should not give priority or make a little extra effort now and then for a particular flight. Far from it! It is that sort of flexibility that keeps the wheels turning! What I object to is pilots attempting to obtain shortcuts and/or other assistance by referring to irrelevant detail that is ultimately designed to make you (the ATC guy) give them what they want because you feel sorry for them.

If I simply ask "request direct XYZ" and it's available, I would expect you to approve it. If it's not available for whatever reason (traffic, workload, etc), I expect you to say "negative" or whatever. But I would not expect you to give me a direct routing where you otherwise wouldn't simpy because I told you I was running late or my passengers think they left their respective irons on at home.

If two aircraft were flying a similar route, but only one could feasably be given a direct routing, I would expect you to give it to whichever one asks first, not simply to the guy who is furthest behind schedule. Therefore, the lateness of my flight is entirely irrelevant, and me telling you I'm late, is a display of my lack of understanding of the system and my feeling that you are a lower intelligence being who can be pushed into doing something you wouldn't otherwise do by my marvellous and creative vocabulary.

Does anyone think differentlt to that? Do you?

Cheers!

CP

[Standby For Start]

Obviously people being stranded in the wrong country overnight is undesirable, but really the scheduling of these flights (particularly some German destinations served by a major UK airline) must be called into question. If certain flights are frequently requesting priority, something must be wrong somewhere.

Asking for priority around 2000 hours outbound is simply not fair on the other airlines. Why should they be penalised for one flight that cannot suffer some schedule shift that happens frequently particularly at busy airports? It's time that things changed rather than putting pressure on ATC and their own crews.

[Gonzo]

I've never known these flights get cancelled. AFAIK they always depart, and perhaps divert to alternate if they are too late to land.

[arem]

Why, when I read this thread does the old phrase "obedience of fools, guidance of wise men" come to mind?

[crj-jockey]

If anybody asks "Do you have any direct for us?", just give him ANY direct to somewhere he doesn´t want to go. Realizing that this is a detour for him just say "It´s the only direct I had." :D
Should work...

[FougaMagister]

Want direct routings without having to even ask? Try cargo! You'll routinely get routed direct from, say, DPE to HON or EME, obviously with vectors to the ILS and no holds... but then again it all happens in the (very) early hours of the morning :zzz:

Cheers :cool:

[Scott Voigt]

Gee...

You mean like, we would like direct anywhere... Sorry sir I don't see anywhere in your route of flight. Or the very nice one... You have any directs for us tonight center??? Of course sir, you can go straight to hell <G>... (joking folks)...

regards

Scott

[MancBoy]

One of my colleagues got called a W@nk*r on the R/T the other day by a Doncaster inbound because he wouldn't give it a direct to the FNY because it would take it outside controlled airspace and we could all see that there was a lot of military out there. I think it was a Thompson.

The pilot didn't know he transmitted it but was bang out of order anyway.

If I get asked for direct I try and get it if it's not too busy but a THANKYOU would be appreciated when we can achieve it.

Yes I'm talking about you Ryanair!

If I can see it is too busy then the phrase "due to noise restrictions" does the trick. Due to the fact there may be a big bang if you go direct.

[London Mil]

It's really quite heartening to be refered to as "military crap", especially in relation to FNY!

I guess we'll just have to keep on getting in the way; it's not as if we've been kicking around that neck of the woods for more than a couple of years. ;)

[MancBoy]

sorry I'll edit out crap, it was a term of endearment really.

Military do a fine job!

[London Mil]

A true Manchester Gentleman. :) :) :) :)

[eyeinthesky]

I must confess to the facetious thought when presented with:

"We're a little late today"

to answer:

"Well you should have taken off earlier"

but I have never transmitted it!:ooh:

[MaxReheat]

ATC (occasionally) do forget about you and need nudging (fact) - and it isn't unknown going into MAN to be almost overhead one of the holding points high (due very often to sector workload) to be thrown over to approach PDQ with neither a holding instruction or heading off the fix (I know... clearance limit...etc). Guys and girls - like flighdeck crew - you are not infallible which isn't the impression given by many of the contributors to threads and some of attitudes displayed in this ATC forum. And before you all shout 'what does this (apparent) pilot know about life behind the console' I've been there and got all the tee-shirts.

I personally never ask for a direct routing if I'm running late. I rely on the ability of the controller to provide that whenever possible as a matter of routien. Nevertheless, I'm not sure that you (generic) are quite aware of the pressures on crews to keep the operation on schedule and the huge financial implications to airlines, big and small, of fuel burn affected by everything from ground movements to stepped climbs to levels allocated.:ok:

[captainpaddy]

I think we getting closer to the point now.

Firstly, with regard to the being handed over at MAN as you approach the holding fix without any further instructions: That's my understanding of the whole point of the 'clearance limit' idea. When they're too busy to get around to giving you an instruction by that point, they know that you will automatically enter the hold. I really can't see what the problem is. Even if you start the turn to join the hold as you check in with Approach, if they don't want you to hold, they'll give you a heading. What's the problem!!! I won't accept that a 30 degree turn in the wrong direction before App get around to giving a heading for downwind will make any difference to your fuel state or airborne time. I just don't see what the problem is. Sure ATC forget about us occassionally, but I would guess that it is mostly in cases like these when there is an alternative instructions inherent in the clearance to proceed to the holding fix.

Secondly, the pressures that crews are under to keep schedules or minimise fuel burns is for us to deal with. NOT ATC! We have one little aircraft to worry about, they have an awful lot more! It wouldn't bother me in the slightest if I discovered that ATC didn't give a monkeys about my airlines fuel policy. And if you think you need to tell them the reason for your desire to proceed direct somewhere you really, really have missed the point. It seems ridiculously obvious to me that proceeding direct saves time, fuel and money. The reason for you wanting to save time, fuel or money has nothing whatsoever to do with it. Whether it's 'cos your passengers will get grumpy, your boss will shout at you or you'll miss last orders at your local, who cares! I don't. And neither do ATC. So keep it off the radio!

[MaxReheat]

My, my - you really are in a paddy, Paddy!:=

[captainpaddy]

Why that's the nicest thing anyones said to me today!

Thanks!! :)

Don't quite know what being in a paddy is though??

Oh well. I'll take it to mean that I was throwing the proverbial wobbly. I've calmed down again now.

:(

[Lon More]

After getting a direct routing a small show of appreciation would help, and also ensure a repeat. Swissair kept Maastricht UAC in chocolate for many years, and a seat on a Danair flight was also guaranteed :)
That aside, most controlers will always do their best to give a direct routing, if only on the basis that it will get you out of his/her sector ASAP and let someone else worry about you. If your request is denied, that is the end of the matter; whining about it will probably only get you special treatment

[ATSA_Grunt]

Appears what I said earier... " You scratch my back"....

[Bandbox4Training]

One of my colleagues got called a W@nk*r on the R/T the other day by a Doncaster inbound because he wouldn't give it a direct to the FNY because it would take it outside controlled airspace and we could all see that there was a lot of military out there. I think it was a Thompson.
Not the same "Thompson's" continually requesting a higher descent profile than published at NEDUL inbound to EGHH/EGHI?

[5milesbaby]

Bandbox4Training - I think you'll find its not Thomson asking for that but another airline with a base at HI, the Thomson's scream for much lower to get that "straight in" on 26 guaranteed, and then get pi$$ed when we can't give it :ugh:
If its for a "valid" reason then I'll have a go at getting a direct co-ordinated through - ie like last night to get the Glasgow inbound there before the runway shut for repairs for the entire night, and recently to Stansted before the works started. But thats to try and save any diverts to somewhere less desireable and ATC are usually aware of these closures so are on the case before the a/c gets anywhere near UK airspace.
My typical response is "see what we can do" even if I know full well its not available as it'll stop any further pestering which has happened on numerous occasions! However being bribed with KitKat's has recently started......you know who you are ;) soggy sandwich won it though :ok:

[Cartman's Twin]

Hiya Folks

(I apologise for the long reply, please feel free to move on!)

Have read the thread with interest and as a TMA controller I have to agree that it is quite unbearably irritating when continually asked for direct routings. I take enormous pride in doing my best for every aircraft and most of my colleagues will do the same. (There are one or two exceptions but I'm not going to go there...). I did like the comment about the CRM though. The pilots have very limited Situational Awareness beyond a few miles and the RT. Of course if we could see more pilots in the Ops Rooms that would help.....

I would agree with many of the postings on here so far. If the RT is quiet then you can always ask, but please bear in mind that we are complex beasts and even if the RT is full of tumble-weed the controller may, in fact, be working bl##dy hard. So please don't take it personally if the reply is a 'negative'.

It is also true that on occasion a controller may forget about an aircraft. Usually this occurs when the a/c is free from conflicts and a complex situation is occupying their attention elsewhere in the sector. So again, please bear with us.

Before I finish though I'd like to give you the single most irrational and inconsiderate example I have personally experienced. It was 2am during a relatively busy night shift this Summer (although there are fewer movements we have far fewer controllers so the workload can be quite high.) I had been controlling for almost 4 hours and looking forward to a nap. Gatwick is still a busyish place at such times with a continual stream of inbounds. As most will appreciate there is very rarely any holding and high speed till 15DME is the norm. The final 2 a/c were heading for MID and would arrive at the same time. I'm sure neither was aware of the other as they were converging from a 35 degree angle at a range of 50 miles.

Based on their relative speeds (both medium jets) I decided who was going the be no.1 (the faster and the only one I was speaking to at the time) so gave him 300kts+. The second a/c arrived on my frequency and I applied a speed of 280kts or less.
"Why do we need to slow down?" was the response.
"Due traffic" I replied.

Given further descent they started to converge at MID and I further reduced the no. 2 a/c to 250kts.
"Are we no.2?" was the reply (No acknowledgement of the speed)
"Affirm, you are no.2 to the traffic in your 10 o clock, range 10 miles"

"We may as well reduce to 220 then"
Short silence... followed by.....
"Interesting way to control..." HOW DARE HE!!!!!

Now I'm sure that the pilot had been awake for a similarly long period and was yearning for his bed. But in that moment my blood simply boiled. I had to try extremely hard to control myself and was proud for resisting the temptation to lower myself to his level. I've no doubt my tone changed dramatically and my reply left the pilot in little doubt that it had upset me. I presume the other pilot in the cockpit was aware of the exchange as they took the RT from that point on.

Both a/c landed and I was soooo tempted to get the pilot to ring me when they got in but chose not to. My Supervisor had a chat with me as I was obviously fuming and they were only too well aware of the exchange.

Shortly afterwards I was laying down in my camp bed and spent the next 2 hours staring at the ceiling before struggling up for the 5 o clock rush. Ill-rested and irritated.

I'm known to be one of the most chilled out controllers that work in my area but that single unnecessary, unhelpful exchange, at a most ungodly hour, could have had much more serious implcations. We discussed filing on the pilot but eventually it was decided best to just move on...

Perhaps that was a mistake as I doubt the pilot ever realised how their words had affected me. And I think about it frequently. So PLEASE just think before you transmit. We are under pressure too, and we are supposed to be a team. Controllers and pilots have the same goal.

If you get the opportunity to visit us, please do.
If your company don't encourage or allow fam flights, then get onto them!

The more we can understand about eachother's situation the better for both worlds.

I thank you, counselling session finished!

PS. I still have the flight number in question, so if it was you....... why you little..!

:O

[garp]

Hiya Folks
(I apologise for the long reply, please feel free to move on!)
Have read the thread with interest and as a TMA controller I have to agree that it is quite unbearably irritating when continually asked for direct routings. I take enormous pride in doing my best for every aircraft and most of my colleagues will do the same. (There are one or two exceptions but I'm not going to go there...). I did like the comment about the CRM though. The pilots have very limited Situational Awareness beyond a few miles and the RT. Of course if we could see more pilots in the Ops Rooms that would help.....
I would agree with many of the postings on here so far. If the RT is quiet then you can always ask, but please bear in mind that we are complex beasts and even if the RT is full of tumble-weed the controller may, in fact, be working bl##dy hard. So please don't take it personally if the reply is a 'negative'.
It is also true that on occasion a controller may forget about an aircraft. Usually this occurs when the a/c is free from conflicts and a complex situation is occupying their attention elsewhere in the sector. So again, please bear with us.
Before I finish though I'd like to give you the single most irrational and inconsiderate example I have personally experienced. It was 2am during a relatively busy night shift this Summer (although there are fewer movements we have far fewer controllers so the workload can be quite high.) I had been controlling for almost 4 hours and looking forward to a nap. Gatwick is still a busyish place at such times with a continual stream of inbounds. As most will appreciate there is very rarely any holding and high speed till 15DME is the norm. The final 2 a/c were heading for MID and would arrive at the same time. I'm sure neither was aware of the other as they were converging from a 35 degree angle at a range of 50 miles.
Based on their relative speeds (both medium jets) I decided who was going the be no.1 (the faster and the only one I was speaking to at the time) so gave him 300kts+. The second a/c arrived on my frequency and I applied a speed of 280kts or less.
"Why do we need to slow down?" was the response.
"Due traffic" I replied.
Given further descent they started to converge at MID and I further reduced the no. 2 a/c to 250kts.
"Are we no.2?" was the reply (No acknowledgement of the speed)
"Affirm, you are no.2 to the traffic in your 10 o clock, range 10 miles"
"We may as well reduce to 220 then"
Short silence... followed by.....
"Interesting way to control..." HOW DARE HE!!!!!
Now I'm sure that the pilot had been awake for a similarly long period and was yearning for his bed. But in that moment my blood simply boiled. I had to try extremely hard to control myself and was proud for resisting the temptation to lower myself to his level. I've no doubt my tone changed dramatically and my reply left the pilot in little doubt that it had upset me. I presume the other pilot in the cockpit was aware of the exchange as they took the RT from that point on.
Both a/c landed and I was soooo tempted to get the pilot to ring me when they got in but chose not to. My Supervisor had a chat with me as I was obviously fuming and they were only too well aware of the exchange.
Shortly afterwards I was laying down in my camp bed and spent the next 2 hours staring at the ceiling before struggling up for the 5 o clock rush. Ill-rested and irritated.
I'm known to be one of the most chilled out controllers that work in my area but that single unnecessary, unhelpful exchange, at a most ungodly hour, could have had much more serious implcations. We discussed filing on the pilot but eventually it was decided best to just move on...
Perhaps that was a mistake as I doubt the pilot ever realised how their words had affected me. And I think about it frequently. So PLEASE just think before you transmit. We are under pressure too, and we are supposed to be a team. Controllers and pilots have the same goal.
If you get the opportunity to visit us, please do.
If your company don't encourage or allow fam flights, then get onto them!
The more we can understand about eachother's situation the better for both worlds.
I thank you, counselling session finished!
PS. I still have the flight number in question, so if it was you....... why you little..!
:O

We've all come across such characters, luckily they are the minority by far. I'd probably would have gone to greener pastures long time ago. Good reading CT, tx.

[MancBoy]

You should have got him to ring in.

I've done it when I was accused of leaving an aircrafts descent too late so that he was not going to be able to make the level by restriction for the next sector.

I, however, had not left it too late! I had merely waited for him to request descent knowing full well that the guy knew what to expect before TNT. He did get a stepped descent but never actually levelled off during it.


And, just after I had transferred him to manchester I saw that he had easily made the level before the level by point so there was no problem anyway.

What made me fume was his tone over the R/T to me after I had worked bloody hard to make sure ALL my aircraft had made their respective levels.

Of course this guy thought he was the only aircraft in the sky.

When he rang in I was still on radar so he kindly left his mobile number with the desk.

As soon as I was relieved I made that call. The guy was still in the aircraft on stand. I have never heard such a guy change from sarcasm one minute to a wet blanket the next. He couldn't be more apologetic if he tried.

I just said that I didn't appreciate his tone over the r/t when he didn't know how hard we were working behind the scenes. I invited him for a visit but sad to say I never saw him in the ops room.

In fact, the only pilots we see at Swanwick are trainees from Cranfield or wherever. Waste of time. We need people from the coalface .

[MancBoy]

Sorry slight change of thread.

I was out recently with some old school friends and there was a guy there who was a pilot for Excel.

Anyway, he came out with the most ridiculous comment from a pilot I have ever heard.

"We don't need Air Traffic anyway, you are there just as an advisory service".

Ok mate, so you would be able to taxi round Heathrow on your own along with everyone else could you?

Muppet, oh yes, and of course Excel don't fly into Heathrow do they? Bless.

That comment showed me what a lot of pilots think of ATC.

I asked him if he ever visited an ATC unit.

The answer.......................................





Shanwick.

Not quite a busy complex Radar environment like TC or Swanwick.

And he is about four feet tall.

[foghorn]

"We don't need Air Traffic anyway, you are there just as an advisory service".
Ok mate, so you would be able to taxi round Heathrow on your own along with everyone else could you?
Muppet, oh yes, and of course Excel don't fly into Heathrow do they? Bless.
That comment showed me what a lot of pilots think of ATC.

Heard a similar one myself from an LL based pilot. "We don't really need you, we just watch TCAS". To give him the benefit of the doubt at the time I assumed he was just trying to get a rise out of me and laughed it off. To this day I am convinced that he was being deadly earnest.

[MancBoy]

We sometimes get a field 11 comment on the strips saying TCAS INOP.

I'm always tempted to say, "good job I'm operational today", or words to that effect.

[Mr R Sole]

Most if not all airlines are pro fam flights but since you guys have to do them on a day off then suddenly they shift down the line of priorities which is understandable since on a day off the last thing you want to do is listen in on a headset to R/T!

Think it is down to ATCOs to arrange individually?

[chiglet]

Mr Sole
I'm an ATSA. I work Tower and Flight Planning. I am SAMOS trained. I "think" that I [possibly] could contribute to quite a lot of problem solving solutions. I HAVE done Fam Flights in the past [with a LOT of effort, and IN MY OWN TIME], but the one's on offer at Manchester are orientated [and offered, quite properly], to ATCOs. But if the ATCOs don't take them up, there is not a way [that I am aware of] that a [keen] ATSA can take a Fam Flight at short[ish] notice. This is in no way meant to denegrate the guys who have laboured long and hard to get the ATSAs Fam Flights.
IF I could arrange a Fam Flight on an "Individual" basis, I would be first in the queue. Unfortunately, we have to have "Official" trips because of Insurance.
watp,iktch

[Mr R Sole]

I get the impression that the only way fam flights are going to be done nowadays results in the initial planning being done at grass roots level i.e. ATCO or ATSA vs Flight Crew and then taking the idea to management so that the 'i's are dotted and the 't's are dashed and any paperwork that needs done gets done.

Problem is that the ATCO and the pilot need to know each other!

Maybe PPRuNe could be used as a way where ATCOs/ATSAs that want fam flights could post requests (onto a sticky or even a forum) and willing flight crew members could take them up on their offer?

Chiglet - why don't you see what your watch manager suggests if you enquire about arranging a fam flight? I am sure with the number of MAN based operators then there must be some deals or arrangements that are in place with at least some operators or has the fam flight died a slow death?

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Just a few things to consider from the flightdeck perspective which haven't been covered before:

a) Your fellow controllers in nearby FIRs are not as good as you are. By simply asking Spanish ATC for a direct at times you can knock off 60nm. They rarely seem to offer them but frequently can when requested. Some nations controllers do not provide the situational awareness and extra pieces of info that British ones do and it is prudent to ask about holds and speeds and such and such. You often spend the majority of the day in non-UK airspace and you often have to do a little of the ATCO's jobs for them (I know that will make you bristle but its true). You become aware that the aircraft 6 miles ahead and 2000ft above is going to the same destination and you offer to slow down 100nm before descent in order to make the arrival flow better. There are dozens of similar scenarios. The point is - its sometimes hard to adjust back to the UK environment where service levels are high, RT loading is busier and airspace more complex. I think that my RT changes between FIRs. German, Dutch, British - I'll keep quieter, be more ICAO standard, expect fewer directs and expect to pretty much follow the SID/STAR. In Southern Europe this might be less so. I think this is a factor which causes occasional lapses where pilots have still got their Italian RT heads on when back in the UK.

b) The average experience levels on the flightdecks have decreased. With all the expansion in recent years there are always going to be about 10% of the FO's who are in their first year of operation. They'll start Standard but as time goes on, confidence grows, experience and knowledge remain low and so you get some eyebrow raising RT at times. This improves with time and your patience is appreciated.

c) I've used the "we're two hours late tonight - is there any chance..." preface myself when seeking a direct. By doing so I am NOT trying to say "I have a good reason for wanting this so I expect you to really try hard to give it to me". What I AM trying to say is "I know I shouldn't be asking for this, please don't take it the wrong way but I'm asking today when I normally don't because...". So I think you getting irate by the "we're running late" preface is totally the opposite result to that which is intended by the pilot. He's really trying to say "sorry for pestering". Communication being a highly imperfect skill in us all at times.

d) RT technology is ridiculously poor. Why in 2006 are we still using analogue radio which can be stepped on, receives breakthrough, can be jammed and requires the correct readback of a 6 digit number? Its madness, it contributes greatly to fatigue and is one of the worst areas of technical safety in modern aviation. We should all be using noise cancelling headsets as well.

e) Everyone has a bad RT say now and again. Don't take it personally as I don't think there are two professions that work so closely together with such consistent aims in such a professional way and yet never meet one another. I've never had an ATCO on my jumpseat since 911 which means none of the FO's I fly with ever have. I've been lucky to spend some time in Bournemouth radar room and a couple of military towers and been an AirGround airfield monkey. Many people flying large jets have never received any RT instruction beyond their PPL course. There really ought to be a regulatory requirement for us to have a day per year rostered into a radar room. It would be far far more valuable than being shown how to open the door every year and how a fire extinguisher still works. :rolleyes:

Cheers

WWW

[Gonzo]

I thought we used AM radios? :confused:

Maybe that's why my R/T is :yuk: sometimes! :p

[Gonzo]

Seriously though, WWW has some good points. especially about the lack of R/T instruction and standards maintenance.

[Mister Geezer]

Bear in mind that whilst you ATCOs get assessed on your R/T at regular intervals, the emphasis on R/T standards IMO takes a drop once a new pilot has been signed off on their line training.

When it comes to recurrent sim checks and line checks for us as crew, I feel that not enough emphasis (or none at all) is being put on R/T standards. That is obviously a view point from what I have seen but if you disagree with what I have said then hats off to your training department. Anyway... sometimes the chap driving the sim is not strictly sticking to CAP413 for starters!

In my limited 3 years of commercial flying R/T has been only brought up once during a training exercise and that was on my command course but if it was another F/O recurrent check then the comment might not of been brought up.

[30W]

In fact, the only pilots we see at Swanwick are trainees from Cranfield or wherever. Waste of time. We need people from the coalface .

MancBoy I understand your feeling, but please don't take tar all with the same brush....... I have visited ALL UK centres, mostly on my days off, and on many occasions. I have spent many hours plugged in, and as many in the canteen or pub discussing joint issues. I have to say, I enjoy every single visit.

Like yourselves though, visits are generally limited to self arranged trips in ones own time. Very similar to good quality Famil flights for ATCO's best arranged 'out of work'........... We all have our good and bad characters within our respective sides of the industry, sadly that night Cartman's Twin came across one of our T***'s!

Cartman's Twin,

DO next time ask for the offender to call, better still, have your Watch Manager write to his airline suggesting the offending crew be 'rostered' a visit to your unit, with company credit card in hand for the beer cost in the pub once the famil and shift has finished:ok:

30W

[MancBoy]

30W, I'm sorry I didn't mean to tar anyone with the same brush.

However, you are in a very small minority I'm afraid.

Why don't we see more visits pilots especially as NATS is part owned by some of them?

[London Mil]

In many years of ATC, I have only ever seen pilots in ops rooms/towers on the following occasions:

1. They were sent there.
2. SATCO had summoned them (usually military only)
3. There was beer involved.
4. There was the chance of mounting one of the ATC fillies.


Biut of a broad-brush generalisation but predominately true. :{

[Afterglow]

The thing that I find most irrating is when pilots check in on new frequency immediately on changing, usually in the middle of an atco/aircraft exchange, I find it annoying I bet controllers find it more so!!

[FougaMagister]

I can't see the point of such unneccesary R/T exchanges as "...as we are running late tonight, would it be possible blah blah blah..." :* - we've all heard (or done) them! Not only is it not standard R/T (and might prevent somebody else from transmitting), it's nothing that a short "request direct XXX" wouldn't achieve.

Cheers :cool: