German President refuses to sign law for ATC privatisation

[RobertK]

Read more here (http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D8KUS9180.htm).

I am interested, how is the situation in other European countries?
Where are ATC organisations fully privatised, fully state-owned or partially state-owned?

In that regard I am also wondering about the statement from the article that
The planned sale would have allowed Germany to meet European Union requirements limiting the role of governments to that of a regulator.
which is claimed to be false by the German controllers' union.

Regards,

Robert

[RobertK]

What, nobody of the 130 readers either being ATC or interested in ATC know about the situation in their respective countries, or EU regulations?

Regards,

Robert

[London Mil]

Most of us are still at work. Give us a chance! :=

[London Mil]

Now that I have read the 'brief' article, I would offer the following.

Under SES (draft?) legislation, it is necessary to separate service provision from regulation. The rationale is that an organisation cannot self-regulate. Each SES state is responsible for ensuring that there is a National Supervisory Authority (NSA) that is 'approved' by the European Commission. Ordinarily, this NSA will be the relevant CAA. Consequently, it is necessary to 'sell-off' any NSA's majority interest in service provision. The way I read the article is that Germany, as an SES state, has refused to comply with legislation that it has already committed to under the SES Framework Regulations.

In the UK, the Govt part privatised NATS such that it (the CAA) does not hold a majority share. However, UK legislation allows the Govt to still direct NATS on matters relating to sovereignty or national security. Indeed SES legislation also allows this as the articles specifically recognise the rights of states to maintain their own interest regarding National Security and Sovereignty. Furthermore, the EC holds no 'competence' on matters of defence and therefore they are unable to issue legislation that would interfere with matters of state.

If this is really Germany's stance (and I suspect that key elements of German law are the sticking point), the whole SES concept could disappear down the drain. If any SES state is unwilling to sign-up to this, then other stuff such as FABs etc could be dead in the water.

[RobertK]

London Mil, thank you for your reply.

So I understand correctly that NATS is owned by private organisations by more than 50%?

What I find interesting is a statement in this video (rtsp://rtsppress.cec.eu.int/Archive/video/mpeg/i040555/i040555_en.rm) by Loyola de Palacio, European Commissioner for Energy and Transport.

At 4:57 into the video, she states that neither she nor the project are seeking to privatise ATC systems (implying that this is not necessary for SES to work).

I haven't yet found the actual text of the SES legislation (especially since the EU pages seem to be full of server errors :rolleyes: ), but this seems to contravene your interpretation.

Since the German ATC union's view also contravenes yours, note that I sent them a mail inquiring about this specific aspect of the privatisation discussion.
Should I get a reply, I'll post their insights here.

Still I am interested in other views from people here, of course.

Regards,

Robert

[London Mil]

Robert, go to the following link and look at Article 4 para 2.

http://www.eurocontrol.int/ses/gallery/content/public/docs/pdf/ses/eudocuments/framework_regulation.pdf

This document is known as the Framework Regulation and it acts as the backbone for all other SES activity. You are right about privatisation. The regulation only requires adequate separation between service provision and regulation; it does not define how this should be achieved.

[RobertK]

Ah excellent, thank you for the link London. :)

The way I read this, how it is currently organised in Germany is already sufficient for SES - the national supervisory authority rests with the "Luftfahrt-Bundesamt" (the German CAA), from which the DFS is functionally independent.

That would mean BusinessWeek indeed is wrong.

Regards,

Robert

[frogATC]

I am interested, how is the situation in other European countries?
Where are ATC organisations fully privatised, fully state-owned or partially state-owned?


Hi RobertK,

In France, ATC is fully state-owned and air traffic controllers are civil servants.

Regards

[RobertK]

Thank you, frog. :)

Regards,

Robert

[frogATC]

And by the way , RobertK, I've heard about a project in which some European countries (where ATC is still partly state owned) would create a single entity for their sky. (I'm summing up and I may have written mistakes :rolleyes:).

Cf http://www.project-mosaic.eu/documents/MOSAIC_english.pdf

Here, the main ATC union backs this project.
Have you heard of that in Germany ? What's your opinion about that ?

Regards

[Spuds McKenzie]

Here, the main ATC union backs this project.
Until they change their mind... :hmm:

[The SSK]

The global organisation of Air Navigation Service Providers is called CANSO (name with a solid aviation pedigree, that). Their website is:
www.canso.org

There are links there to all their members (ie the national ANSPs)

[RobertK]

And by the way , RobertK, I've heard about a project in which some European countries (where ATC is still partly state owned) would create a single entity for their sky. (I'm summing up and I may have written mistakes :rolleyes:).

Cf http://www.project-mosaic.eu/documents/MOSAIC_english.pdf

Here, the main ATC union backs this project.
Have you heard of that in Germany ? What's your opinion about that ?

Regards
No, haven't heard of it yet, though at least from that paper it appears that the German ATC union also supports it.

At first glance it looks interesting, albeit according to the German union, there are still some differences about how ANSPs should be organised in that framework.

I'll have to look more into this, thanks for the link. :)

Regards,

Robert

[frogATC]

Until they change their mind... :hmm:

Spuds McKenzie, why do you think the ATC unions are going to change their mind ???

[Spuds McKenzie]

Because they did regarding the so called "Centre Commun" in Geneva (about 10 years ago).

[OCEAN WUN ZERO]

It is rumored that if the German gov does not separate regulation and provision they would face prosecution under European law
OWZ

[RobertK]

It is rumored that if the German gov does not separate regulation and provision they would face prosecution under European law
OWZ
Where are those rumours? :)

According to my understanding, regulation (done by the Luftfahrtbundesamt, a government institution) and provision (done by DFS, state owned) are already separated.
Additionally, Skyguide would then face the same problem, as they are also state owned.

Regards,

Robert

[OCEAN WUN ZERO]

Rumours from high up in UK regulator

OWZ

[RobertK]

Rumours from high up in UK regulator
OWZ
Well those higher ups would certainly not wish to be proven wrong, since they already privatised NATS?

Just a thought.

Regards,

Robert

[frogATC]

Because they did regarding the so called "Centre Commun" in Geneva (about 10 years ago).
OK, I wasn't aware of that. We 'll see what happens this time.

According to my understanding, regulation (done by the Luftfahrtbundesamt, a government institution) and provision (done by DFS, state owned) are already separated.
Additionally, Skyguide would then face the same problem, as they are also state owned.That's the same in France, and as far as I've understood, it's complying with EU's laws.

[RobertK]

That's the same in France, and as far as I've understood, it's complying with EU's laws.
Well if the EU was going to prosecute Germany, France, Switzerland (and probably a few others?), I'd think there would be some fuss about it already - especially from France, as I don't think they are planning to sell their ANSP?

Regards,

Robert

[andrijander]

Yep...

I hear sounds of thunder @ Eurocontrol though...
We're both regulator and provider and that puts us in sh@#$%tty position. Waiting to see what name they give us. Anybody knows who's bidding? We all guess it'll take a good while to develop but we see it coming.