Ssssshhh!!!!

[TCASClimb]

Anyone able to comment? LHR TWR boys rumoured to be getting extra £££££ for new jogging shoes and tracksuits. Need to cover extra miles to new tower and still make it to work on time. Sorry, was this meant to be a secret? :oh: Could always just get out of bed a bit earlier!!!!

[Point Seven]

:rolleyes:

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

It's probably true, like we used to get substantial allowances for burned fingers caused by the intense heat from our pens as we moved soooo much traffic...

[London Mil]

It's probably true, like we used to get substantial allowances for burned fingers caused by the intense heat from our pens as we moved soooo much traffic...


Did that compliment the 'Ego Massaging' allowance? :ouch: :ouch: :ouch:

PS. How do I get rid of these pesky adverts?

[AlanM]

£10k as a one off payment.....?!?!

[Talkdownman]

....which is six times as much as some individuals will be allowed (1,650 Gross self-help payment) on compulsory posting posting from LTCC to LACC......:yuk:

[Geffen]

Surely this is best placed in the NATS.

[GT3]

Not that I know of.

[AlanM]

Surely this is best placed in the NATS.

Is it a secret?!?!?

[Gonzo]

So secret nobody I know has heard of it!

[AlanM]

you on leave mate???

[Gonzo]

Nope, in work this morning.

[AlanM]

A Heathrow ATCO told TC in the week.

....check the tapes!! :)

So is it untrue then???:hmm:

[Gonzo]

Don't know, but nothing's been announced. I saw people today who I would expect to know, so I reckon it's a complete rumour, or perhaps what that particular ATCO would like to happen!

Talkdownman, you not getting a relocation package?

[AlanM]

Gonzo - some of us who were 58/59 mins from LACC (and 35 mins from LTCC) are not getting paid moves.

Some are 55 minutes away from LACC, south of the M3 , closer than others and are getting the whole lot. But that's a whole new story:ugh:

[Talkdownman]

Talkdownman, you not getting a relocation package?Gonze, that IS my relocation package. I have declined the '1650 GBP PRE-TAX self-help payment' regarding it DERISORY and INSULTING, therefore I am RESIGNING instead. What on earth do nats expect? After many years service I am SICK and TIRED of relocating to different units at MY EXPENSE in nats' interest. nats FAIL to value their staff.

[AlanM]

TDM That is not fair.

NATS do value it's staff (well the managers..........)

Never thought I would say that the RAF would care more about it's people than NATS - but they do.

And for a company who's only asset is it's staff it makes for interesting times. :ugh:

[TCASClimb]

Good work Talkdownman. NATS act like they are doing us a big favour with this relocation package shambles. Maybe getting drunk in breweries is more their forte! Then again!

"Rumour" has it that the LHR TWR thing was meant to be a little hush hush so as not to upset the LTCC relocation applecart & associated grievances. Its good to talk!!!!

Re. burnt LHR fingers. Think yourselves lucky they dont teach you use your weak hand to write as well. That busy at our place these days, the shoes and socks have to come off as well!!!

[Talkdownman]

Well, as you know, I am going to work for a company that DOES value its staff more than just pushing around bums to seats. nats' loss.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Jeeezz TDM... I wonder who?? Mind you don't mess up your pension.

[anotherthing]

It would be good to find out the truth behind this rumour... if the tower are getting it - good on them, however it would be nice for TC Bods to know as some of them are being shafted.

If it is true, it is another little scheme for the management in their divide and conquer the workforce tactics.... (in the way that people who did not receive HTD got a bung to vote it out).

I am sure that in their eyes the more division they can create now, the better for them when the pension issues really start kicking in (probably just after the fund assessment at the end of this year).

[GT3]

Ok some FACTS.

There was NO offer of £10,000.

There has been NO offer of any TOIL to cover extra transit time to the new VCR.

Prospect did not turn anything down, as rumour says from some members of PCS at LHR.

[Lon More]

All this bickering. Sounds like your playing right into their (NATS) hands. Divide and conquer

[anotherthing]

Don't see any bickering yet Lon - merely people trying to find out facts as opposed to fiction :)

[White Hart]

Ok some FACTS.
There was NO offer of £10,000.
There has been NO offer of any TOIL to cover extra transit time to the new VCR.
Prospect did not turn anything down, as rumour says from some members of PCS at LHR.

GT3

I heard "as rumour says" similar figures (£9K as opposed to £10K) quoted, followed by the statement that Prospect had rejected this at local rep/mgmt level, and weighed in with a request for 12% on the basic pay plus 6 days TOIL for the 'inconvenience' factors. This request was rejected by local Mgmt, and has now been referred to Prospect Central, who have allegedly said that if LL gets it, then everybody gets it - (which means that no-one will get it).

So, are we still in a state of limbo, or has the issue been handed to either Prospect or PCS at Central level?

[anotherthing]

I honestly cannot see a 10% or 12% payout with TOIL happening - it is a pipe dream. Thats more than TC BODS who are having to move house, and have their partners find new jobs! I cannot see many at TC being happy if it's true - and quite rightly.

However even such a scurrilous rumour like this plays into The Red Barrons hands :ugh:

[GT3]

GT3
I heard "as rumour says" similar figures (£9K as opposed to £10K) quoted, followed by the statement that Prospect had rejected this at local rep/mgmt level, and weighed in with a request for 12% on the basic pay plus 6 days TOIL for the 'inconvenience' factors. This request was rejected by local Mgmt, and has now been referred to Prospect Central, who have allegedly said that if LL gets it, then everybody gets it - (which means that no-one will get it).
So, are we still in a state of limbo, or has the issue been handed to either Prospect or PCS at Central level?


Well whoever told you that must have been at a different Prospect Local and Local Management meeting to me.

I will re-iterate NO offer was made. NO percentage claim was requested by Prospect locally.

I understand it is only at Prospect centrally.

[White Hart]

I understand it is only at Prospect centrally as the PCS stance is to use the Prospect coat-tails.

What - you've been told this? ...... or is it yet another rumour?

[ATSA_Grunt]

Used to work at EGLL. Assume (correct me if I'm wrong)that this is to do with extra time it takes/hassle getting to the new tower????

If thats the case, surely they should work out the difference between arriving at the old tower and the new?? Then either give the diffference in TOIL or take that into account in the WPP average hours... After all if you work at EGLL its not your fault you're being asked to take more time out of your life to attend work, and, no other unit should be able to leap on the band wagon! Just an opinion... ( as i prepare to get gunned down!!)

[GT3]

What - you've been told this? ...... or is it yet another rumour?

As I understand PCS have said whatever Prospect get we will take too.

[point5]

ATSA Grunt... as far as I know this simple formula was looked at early on but the number of extra days (TOIL) for each ATCO did not fit into the unit model at EGLL. Next suggestion!

[GT3]

ATSA Grunt... as far as I know this simple formula was looked at early on but the number of extra days (TOIL) for each ATCO did not fit into the unit model at EGLL. Next suggestion!

Ahh but it did fit into the model. Mgt said no.

[Eileen Dover]

As I understand PCS have said whatever Prospect get we will take too. Coat-tails quote is from another Prospect rep not at the unit.


Incorrect statement. :ugh:

PCS has only ever had one view on this negotiation. Whatever the outcome it has to be equal for everybody, from management down to store man. The issue is over extra time taken to get to work, therefore taking up your own time leaving earlier and getting home later. Everyone’s spare time is equal, and it would take a very arrogant person to assume that theirs is worth more than anybody else’s!

A Percentage is not equal, and therefore would not be accepted.

It is also incorrect to say Prospect Locally have asked for a percentage. They did not!

As for your “coat-tails” GT3, I find this comment divisive, completely unnecessary and not in the least bit helpful, unless it was your aim to wind up the entire ATSA contingent at Heathrow. In which case I am sure you have succeeded in achieving your aim! :=

[GT3]

[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Times New Roman]As for your “coat-tails” GT3, I find this comment divisive, completely unnecessary and not in the least bit helpful, unless it was your aim to wind up the entire ATSA contingent at Heathrow. In which case I am sure you have succeeded in achieving your aim! :=

No not an attempt to wind up the ATSA contingent. In fact it was me who said poissibly 18 months ago, not sure of the date, that any recompense should apply to all grades. A PCS member who was in the meeting at the time will clarify if he feels the need I am sure.

The comment was more aimed at those who have been "mouthing off" about the Prospect ATCOs negotiation team of late. Which is also as you put it divisive and unnecessary.

I will withdraw the coat-tails part of my previous post.

[White Hart]

ok ok - chill out folks!

I dont think the LL ATSAs will be sharpening the daggers just yet - this kind of inter-Union scenario is old hat to us now :hmm: . What's more important is how we proceed from here.

I cannot see how any other Unit other than LL should be in receipt of anything which is negotiated between the LL Union reps/members and the local Mgmt. Nobody outside of LL is 'inconvenienced' by the move to NVCR.

Although I totally support our local PCS reps in their efforts to look after us, I do not accept the all-for-one, one-for-all Union mentality of yesteryear. Those days are long gone, and we're not going to see other Units standing on picket lines or voting against NATS Management over issues which, frankly, have nothing to do with them.

This is essentially a local issue, and we must address it locally. Taking it outside of the Heathrow arena is a waste of time - we will all end up with nothing anyway.

[GT3]

I dont think the LL ATSAs will be sharpening the daggers just yet .

Maybe not for me :ok: others perhaps........

[White Hart]

GT3 - There's a basic problem with Union negotiations at LL (and maybe at other places as well?) - that is, its all very 'cloak-and-dagger'. The Reps rarely report back to the members about what happened, and it's all this "sorry, but I cannot say anything about this issue" stuff that causes the rumour mill to rumble on.

In the interests of all workers at LL, it would help if the Reps from both unions were not afraid to speak to any of us about issues of a joint nature (such as NVCR move).

What's wrong with the Reps just telling us as it is - good or bad? Either way, eventually they're going to have to tell us anyway. Keeping us in the dark is not helpful, and generates much ill feeling on the Unit.

[anotherthing]

Atsa Grunt

Devils advocate here:

Why should you get more just because it takes longer to get into work??

Using the NATS autoroute, the new tower will be at most a mile farther for some people - the same autoroute they use to determine other people will be shafted at other units.

So what happens to people that are posted into the tower after this is all settled... do they get the TOIL - they shouldn't as it is no different to what they know.

Then you would have the possibility of people in the same job, in the same watch being given extra leave.

I think this is a lot more complicated than at first seems. What about the time it will take people to drive from the main gate, find a parking space and then get into the ops room/office at LACC when TC moves down and parking spaces do not exist for everyone?!!

[GT3]

GT3 - There's a basic problem with Union negotiations at LL (and maybe at other places as well?) - that is, its all very 'cloak-and-dagger'. The Reps rarely report back to the members about what happened, and it's all this "sorry, but I cannot say anything about this issue" stuff that causes the rumour mill to rumble on.
In the interests of all workers at LL, it would help if the Reps from both unions were not afraid to speak to any of us about issues of a joint nature (such as NVCR move).
What's wrong with the Reps just telling us as it is - good or bad? Either way, eventually they're going to have to tell us anyway. Keeping us in the dark is not helpful, and generates much ill feeling on the Unit.

I think part of the problem at the moment stems from not actually knowing anything. On occasion we are told we cannot pass things on, for good reason, but other times of late we simply are as much in the dark as everyone! :ugh:

[Yellow Snow]

Anotherthing
I think this is a lot more complicated than at first seems. What about the time it will take people to drive from the main gate, find a parking space and then get into the ops room/office at LACC when TC moves down and parking spaces do not exist for everyone?!!
I'm sure all at Heathrow would completely agree that it seems that TC are getting shafted on the move to LACC. What are prospect doing about this?
You can always make your own stand by dropping extra validations, withdrawing from training and stop doing AAVA's.
These are all things being considered by the tower ATCOs if we don't get a fair deal.
LL and TC are in the same boat here.
The whole thing is another example of poor mangement by NATS, they've had years to sort these issues out!
No surprise when we have a leader who doesn't understand simple economics of supply and demand (never mind understand the complex job his workforce do at the coalface), yet he has 36 years experience in Alstom:ugh: :ugh:
Read the speech he gave on the intranet.
The key thing is all grades at all units must stick together on this.:ok:
Am I correct in saying Swanick guys and gals had plenty of money thrown at them to make sure they didn't have to put O date back again?

[White Hart]

The key thing is all grades at all units must stick together on this

YS - never happened in the past, and not much chance of this happening now unless the Unions start working with each other in the truest sense. The various issues mentioned on this thread are specific local issues, and need to be resolved as such. Referring local issues 'Centrally' is a pointless exercise, and confuses the issue, because the Unions' stance is historically based on everybody getting the same, rather than supporting the local claimaints.

[Point Seven]

White Hart

Quite correct - going national helps no-one but this was forced on both Prospect AND Mgt locally by NATS Senior Management's recalcitrance to be seen to bow to the pressure brought to bear by the ATCOs who are getting royaly shafted.

The stance now being taken (that of "We won't give in to the ATCOs/ATSAs, we're the bosses) at both LL and TC, coupled with the ill-advsied and incredibly badly judged comments delivered by the CEO to the Aviation Club of GB, amply display that NATS "new breed" of senior managers believe that they can continue with their reckless policy displayed at their previous employers - "F8ck the workers, we'll make a pretty penny for the company then retire on that". I bet Barron's big fat pension won't be under threat if he screws ours in the next few years....

My point is this - we're all of us on here cos we're getting done over and if we can't stick together now then we never will. It is time to show that our allegiance in not to our validation, or to NATS, but to fairness and adequate recompense for undertaking (successfully and incredibly safely) the ever increasingly complex task of ensuring the safety of the flying public. It wasn't our decision to move either unit but we, The Coal Face Staff, are the ones who are paying with our time. Yes Gonzo, even me;)

P7

[Point Seven]

And further to this, GT3 and the rest of the Prospect reps were doing (in fact ARE doing) a grand job and we should be thanking them not stabbing them in the back with petty comments.
This thread has been brought into fruition not by their poor performance, but by another member of another union spreading ridiculous rumours cos he thinks he has got a plan. Some bloody plan.
P7

[White Hart]

Hi P7 - first, I endorse your point about the Reps trying to do their best :ok: - at least I like to think that my PCS Reps are doing that. There is one point of issue that I do regret, however, - that the Coal Face Workers are not consulted or informed more before these Union/Mgmt meetings take place, because I/we don't actually know if my/our opinions are being represented. There's no open dialogue between Reps and CFWs, and when issues are getting as serious as this, the dialogue should be going full tilt both ways!

With regard to NVCR move issues (not EFPS) if you asked me what it is that my Union is trying to achieve on my behalf, or what the current position is, then, apart from generalisations, I cannot tell you, because I have no knowledge of what it is that's being discussed. Apart from rest-room chit-chat, nobody from PCS has asked me for my ideas or opinions, and nobody is reporting anything back in what might be regarded as an 'official capacity'. I would expect this situation to be the same for most, if not all, non-BEC PCS ATSAs at LL.

Apart from the biased, one-sided bogroll publication that is 'Countdown' (where 'everything is proceeding according to plan' -yeah right! :hmm: ) then rumour is the only means of communication - hardly the best way for a Union to liase with the people it represents, and certainly not the best way to garner the support and confidence of the members.

I trust that the situation will change - it needs to change - especially if we're being asked (or even expected) to 'stick together'.

[Point Seven]

I can't speak for PCS as I have no knowledge of their operations (other than the occasional sh1t stirring rumour:rolleyes: ) but Prospect always tell their members that it is THEIR union and it imperative on them to get involved.

If your Reps aren't representing you, hunt them down and force your opinion on them:ok:

P7

[anotherthing]

White Hart -

You always revert to the argument - ....never happened in the past, and not much chance....

Are you this negative in all aspects of your life? That was then this is now. History is history. People who keep raking it up cause damage to any chances of working together now and in the future.

If you are so dissatisfied - become a Union Rep!!

Yellow Snow - I agree with you entirely, LL and TC are being shafted - the terms are different, but the result is the same!


As for reading the speech on the intranet -If you go to the NATS forum you will find out what I think of his speech..... :ok:

[White Hart]

If your Reps aren't representing you, hunt them down and force your opinion on them:ok:
P7

Force?? I can't use force, P7!! :eek: Can't possibly give 'em ammo to use against me when they (Mgmt & Unions) start looking at who to get rid of next July - not that they have even the most remotest, basic idea of how to achieve this fairly, but that's for another thread...

For the current issue, a statement from the Unions (either individually or jointly (hah!)) as to exactly where we are at this moment might be a helpful start. Cut out all the rumour, and then we all know where we stand.

After that, yes, it's down to us to get involved if possible.

anotherthing - I was a Union Rep - I stood down because I would not follow the LL BEC line of letting Central PCS override our local issues in favour of national ones. There are/were specific issues at LL which needed resolving at a local level, just like the NVCR move being discussed here - because they only apply to us!

As for the quote you have given - I shall stand by that, because that's exactly how it is. The two Unions, and their respective memberships, have never realistically worked together in any shape or form, right up to the present day.