View Full Version : BA pilots 30% pay rise??

22nd Mar 2001, 18:42
Has anyone else heard these rumours? Apparantly BALPA are pushing for a 30% pay rise across the board for BA pilots because on average they are paid less than other airline pilots..

22nd Mar 2001, 21:14
I have heard the rumour but have seen no proof, if they are behind the rest hate to think where everybody else is!!!

22nd Mar 2001, 21:29
HaHAhahahahahahahah ahhahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahaha!! sorry.. couldn't help it!
In the unlikely event that this is true, good luck to them, would be great for all in the industry. In the even unlikelier event of them being successful, FANTASTIC!!


[This message has been edited by PPRuNe Towers (edited 22 March 2001).]

22nd Mar 2001, 22:01
Remember that a significant proportion of BA pilots joined post 96 on the B scale or are on cadet pay deals. Their pay is not that great, most joining from other airlines took a big pay cut to move to BA. Still...Bob Hope of that kind of increase.

22nd Mar 2001, 22:37
I think the chances of BALPA showing the necessary muscle to get such a pay deal out of BA is slim - but I hope they do! I'm guessing the Flt ops payroll will decrease with the ongoing retirements, but I still can't see where they will find the cash to subsidise such a huge payrise. Maybe with the allday deli, the savings in cutlery washing-up costs on short-haul will help! Whatever happens, this might be good for all pilots.
Yay BALPA! I'm behind you all the way with this one! http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif :)

22nd Mar 2001, 23:06
I would love a 30% rise - no while I'm at it how about 50% then at least as a senior BA Capt I would be on comparable terms with United and Delta. Er - Co-pilots that is!!

22nd Mar 2001, 23:57
They will most certainly be looking at how the Vereinigung Cockpit (German ALPA) is doing these days vs. Lufthansa. They have been asking for a comparable and much discussed payrise this year.
I certainly hope that all tha major European ALPAs will join in this move to lessen the difference in pay that divides us from the Americans who did so well last year.

23rd Mar 2001, 00:12
well if balpa's behind it you'll be lucky to get 3% !!!!!!!!. they're all talk very little action.

minge muncher
23rd Mar 2001, 00:17
Well I hope the BA boys have more luck with their pay negotiations. Us woolly pullies have just been sold down the road by BALPA...

23rd Mar 2001, 00:21
minge muncher award yourself a 1% pay rise for 2 years stop paying balpa!! until they come up with the goods.Incidently Aer Lingus are looking for a 70% pay rise to bring them up on par with B.A !!!

[This message has been edited by islandhopper (edited 22 March 2001).]

23rd Mar 2001, 05:13
Does anyone think BALPA would even entertain this idea? Sorry to say i doubt it. Haven't heard of many happy campers where BALPA have been involved in pay negotiations.Mind you, they usually take the credit. As a subscribing member it would be nice to see something for my money, at the minute it is really for legal protection in case of a bad day at the office!!(touch wood)

23rd Mar 2001, 05:46
>>I would love a 30% rise - no while I'm at it how about 50% then at least as a senior BA Capt I would be on comparable terms with United and Delta. Er - Co-pilots that is!!<<

Perhaps the discrepancy is explained by a cultural difference in attitude toward the profession.

As you know, the custom in the UK is to pride oneself on how difficult the ATPL exam is and how precise are British R/T procedures. Here in the U.S., the competition among pilots at the major airlines is more about how much we get paid. Delta pilots are willing to go for broke to beat last year's UAL contract and so on.

We don't know what colour the light is in the laser gyros and we can't verbalise flight levels below 180 properly if our lives depend on it (well, maybe they do <g> ). But, when it comes to pay, we let the results speak for themselves.

Hope BALPA gets BA that 30% pay raise but I agree that 3.0% is more in line with past results...

[This message has been edited by Airbubba (edited 23 March 2001).]

23rd Mar 2001, 06:50
Islandhopper Don"t blame Balpa they only do what the respective PLC ask them to do. Generals can start a war but if the troops desert ie the pilot force does not support the cause then the battle is lost. Pilots generally do not have a good record of sticking together except in USA and perhaps Cathay and BA inthe past which is why the rest ofus moan in bars but do nothing else!! We are all to blame for our lot!!

23rd Mar 2001, 14:01

To an extent what you say about our cultural differences is true. To quite a number of people in our profession taking industrial action would be perceived as reducing our level to that of the ‘working classes’. In part snobbery still rules over here I’m afraid. Status over here is determined not so much by how much you are paid but by what you actually do to earn that pay. That attitude is changing, but slowly.

B.A. have also managed a remarkably effective policy of ‘divide and rule’ making unity within the workforce very difficult. I believe it is finally beginning to dawn on us all that firm and cohesive action will be only method to ensure a fair remuneration across the board. Nobody enjoys the prospect of strike action of course, but many of us have now realised that all the years of talk and no action have led us to the point that we find ourselves now.

We have seen years of mismanagement and general corporate waste in B.A., much of it funded by the pay packets of all groups of staff within the airline. Consequently we now have a workforce with very low moral. I hope our new leader, RE, recognizes the situation that he finds himself in and does not surround himself by sycophants (as the last fellow did) who only tell him what he wishes to hear.

I hope common sense will prevail very soon, if not then I can see a very bloody fight looming.

What you have achieved over in the U.S.A. by UNITY has provided a fine example of what can be achieved over here. Good on you all, and I hope you continue to enjoy your hard won prosperity.


Up in arms
24th Mar 2001, 20:13

Loved your post. One nail hit magnificently on the head.


Set your sights on 1% and that's precisely what you deserve.

When oh when will we learn??

You get US style money by adopting US style tactics. A big powerful well-funded union that can scare the bejaysus out of any airline.

Oh, and consistent support from the members. Nearly forgot that bit. Backed up by social ostracisation (or worse) of non-members, scabs, strikebreakers etc.

It works there, it'll work here.

FO Nigetrussoxide
24th Mar 2001, 21:34
Exeng, great post (as usual!)
Up in Arms - also!

The key thing is that we at BA have to ask for more than we expect to get.
My understanding is that the Virgin pilots have failed totally; by asking management for precisely what the pilots believed to be a fair increase.

The (predicatble) outcome was that they look likely to achieve anout half the requested deal.- sad.

[This message has been edited by FO Nigetrussoxide (edited 24 March 2001).]

Raw Data
25th Mar 2001, 06:47
Up in Arms

>> . Backed up by social ostracisation (or worse) of non-members, scabs, strikebreakers etc. <<

I would rather endure low pay than see a return to that particular form of union nazism. The unions will flourish if they are seen to be a strong and viable force in the industry. That is what will gain them support- not the sort of '50s union thuggery you are on about. Oh, and yes, I have been a union member for as long as I have been a professional pilot- I believe in unions.

Sadly, BALPA is a thousand miles behind comparable Euro pilot unions when it comes to looking out for our interests. This will hopefully change as the new legislation takes effect.

US-style unionism has a downside, you know... look at their FTL scheme for example. Also, think back to the Continental dispute...

dallas dude
25th Mar 2001, 20:43
Raw Data,

Unfortunately with your attitude you've got three hopes of getting something reasonable from BA....Bob Hope, Maurice Hope (remember him?) and No Hope!

You ARE NOT a Doctor, a Lawyer (thank heavens) or any other kind of proffessional in the eyes of BA management. You are HOURLY PAID labour! Just like McDonalds, London Underground etc.etc. You are a blue collar worker hoping to make white collar money (me too).

The sooner you folks wake up and smell the coffee (or tea) the better.

Many criticise the US pilots for this simple realisation. Come and join us. The water's nice and warm.


Harry Wragg
25th Mar 2001, 21:36
Just a thought! Where exactly is this payrise going to come from. I found a copy of the Economist on one of our aircraft. It is dated March 10-16th 2001 and has a rather large feature on AIR TRAVEL. One of the more disturbing details is the graph on page 12 which details the net profits of Delta, UAL, AA, and BA since 1990. The first three are heading for the stratosphere, with BA grounded, and with an unhealthy trend. The company needs to be profitable before it can award a payrise!

Second Segment
25th Mar 2001, 22:53
30% lads.....dream on. Is it really credible that BA, or for that matter any employer, to raise the salary of a single group by 30%. I can almost hear the ground engineers whinging from here!

26th Mar 2001, 00:05
Another proof of point.

In today's aviation market, why can't BA make a profit???? What's going to happen when a real downturn in the economy happens??

Despite the drinking of vast quantities of company kool-aid by Euro pilots, pilot salaries do not make airlines unprofitable. Managerial buffoonery, incompetence, and/or corruption kills airlines.

Raw Data
26th Mar 2001, 00:48
dallas dude

For your information, I don't work for BA (thank God).

I'd rather have less money than your FTL's, or some other features of your packages. Money isn't the only goal of employment- being able to enjoy it in good health and wihout being exhausted all the time is also important. Only a fool believes that money is the only focus- a balanced package is far more important.

Hot Wings
26th Mar 2001, 02:59
Second Segment - it is entirely up to the ground engineers to put in their own pay request. BA likes to have a nice and simple corporate wide pay deal. It is up to each group of employees to decide their true worth. Pay at BA has fallen so far behind that a massive pay rise is now needed to catch up. Strangely enough BA were able to find money to give the CSDs a 5.5% pay rise whilst the rest of the company got shafted.

Raw Data - what are you talking about? UAL pays its 747-400 Captains >$300,000 pa and F/Os >$150,000. With a 747-400 fleet about the same size of BAs, they have 1,800 pilots compared about 1,000 at BA. Why? Because they always fly with heavy crew.
Next time you're having a laugh at some Yank's R/T, remember that he is doing half the work for twice the money.

dallas dude
26th Mar 2001, 03:53
Raw Data,

You miss the point. Airline management isn't in this for your health or piece of mind. You are the only person that cares about you!

I just happen to think the US pilots learned this lesson a long time ago.

I don't want to get in to ANY Euro-bashing etc (I'm UK myself). Eventually Euro based crews will unite and realise they're being had (despite what the guvnor and his posts suggest).

Good luck getting what you can.


Raw Data
26th Mar 2001, 04:35
Hot Wings

What am I talking about? Not what you are talking about! You are talking money, I'm talking quality of life as well as money. I am not just thinking of 747 crews either, it may have escaped your attention but only a tiny minority of crews fly those types. The US commuter fleet is miles behind the UK in both pay and conditions (or don't they count, because they fly smaller machinery?) Just their FTL scheme alone is frightening.

dallas dude - I didn't miss the point at all. FTLs were negotiated (in a roundabout way), and there were tradeoffs. One was less money.

I'm all for unions, negotiation, and all that good stuff. I just don't happen to think the American Way is the best (or only) way. My original point was that I am against the bully-boy tactics as espoused by Up in Arms, who you may recall was talking about "social ostracisation (or worse) of non-members..." I wonder what s/he means by "or worse".

If that is the American approach to labour relations (and historically it has been), keep it on your side of the pond!

Hot Wings
26th Mar 2001, 05:51
Raw Data - I'm glad that we don't work for the same company. You appear to be the sort of person who goes around saying that a 15 year old car and a bedsit in Hounslow is all you need to make you happy, not money, yet you would happily cross a picket-line and betray your colleagues for a fiver.

A united pilot force is the only way to get results. Unfortunately, some pilots need a bit of peer pressure placed on them.

If you have a look at the Comair threads you will see that commuter pilots in the US have had enough. To quote Capt. Duane Worth of ALPA regarding pay and conditions "we will not tolerate it any more".

Raw Data - you obviously favour a give and take/ partnership approach to employer/ employee relations. We have tried this at BA, using People in Business to discuss issues in a calm and constructive way. The result? Agreements made, then reneged upon by senior managers within the airline. This type of approach just does not work.

The worst flying jobs I have had, have been at companies with no union or a very weak union. And before you suggest, once again, that my only motivation is money, one of the companies paid a hell of alot more than I get paid now.

26th Mar 2001, 05:55
I'm with Dallas Dude on this one. BA's whole attitude reeks of busting the hated flightcrew down to the level of a piece rate worker. The clever attempt, (successful, I regret to say), at social engineering that is the Compass Centre (our crew report area) is testament enough to how BA really sees its pilots.

Indeed, there is a phrase for this manipulation of expectation:

"Flatter Structure".

The implication of that phrase is a narrow pyramid of high earners at around board level and just below, and the great majority of the workforce in a relatively low paid mass at the base. With our various B scales and acquisitions on wages like Cityfliers, we are well down the track of meeting BA's broad target for the reduction of flightcrew from professional status.

BA most certainly do not see pilots as professional people worthy of being treated as such, right up until an incident occurs, when suddenly the true professional nature of the job is acknowleged as all the responsibility is left firmly in the pilots lap. Each draft of our Flight Crew Orders heaps more and more liability overtly onto flightcrew.

I would accept that if a) we were to be treated as professional people within the company and granted even a vestige of respect and b) our salaries were roughly in line with our contemporaries in leading international airlines. Sadly neither occurs, nor does it look likely to.

Dallas Dude, want to tell us who you are with? I for one admire the practicality of the US airline pilot union movement. I think we have a huge amount to learn from you guys and yes, I think the uppermost level of our Union, BALPA, has its own political career in mind and not the aim of becoming a highly professional and respected negotiating machine in the way that ALPA has become.
Thanks for your input and please keep it coming. It's a tonic for long term BA inmates like me!

26th Mar 2001, 06:12
I think Raw Data's been drinking way too much company kool-aid.

I ask the question again. Why is BA doing so poorly in great economic times, if their pilot costs are not nearly those of US majors?

Answer: Because BA management is so poor. Lousy managers always try to blame everyone but themselves. Low crew costs have little to do with the success of an airline.

Wise up and smell the coffee, guys. You're being shafted by both management and your union. Why in the heck do you allow outsourcing of your jobs, like with Atlas? Why do you allow an airline who is supposidly the "standard" of the world to pay you second rate wages? Why do you put up with a union leadership who can't get results? It will NEVER get any better until your contract forces management to be efficient. And you will never get a better contract until you get some leadership in the union that cares about ALL the membership.

[This message has been edited by Roadtrip (edited 26 March 2001).]

26th Mar 2001, 08:02
Raw Data,

For your information UPS Pilots got a 30% raise on their last goin 98. You do seem to have a complacent and defeatist attitude, Why not expect United wages, with your FTL's? Pilot salaries do earn alot of press, but have a small impact on the bottom line. BA will cry poverty, yet will host lavish dinners, executive retreats, questionable campaigns (how much did that world tails cost?) then will whine they can't afford to pay their pilots world class wages. No offence but I was amazed at your payscales, I always assumed you and Lufthansa were paid extremely well, yet some F/o's earn as much as your Captains at my airline..Stand up for the profession and stand united. Good luck!

26th Mar 2001, 11:16
RoC -Spot On. BA will compail, and produce figures showing how they can'y afford to give us ANYTHING. I think the only way to reduce the excesses of Waterside is for the pilots to increase their portion of the costs, thereby forcing certain managers to scale back theirs. I'm fed up of tightening my belt and then seeing other departments on "jollys", management Xmas parties held in Stately homes, and crazy fancy dress promotions costing millions. I'm sorry, but I've had enough. So I gather have a large proportion of the pilots 'cos they've voted with their feet and moved off-shore, thereby awarding themselves a 20-25% pay-rise already. I think stormy waters lie ahead in the next year!!

26th Mar 2001, 11:55
High sallaries for cockpit-staff are seldomly stopping an airline to have a high profit. Good examples are the Americans and Cathay Pacific (C.P. "A": with 25 years as Cpt: more than 400000 € !!!!).

Germanys VC is now in for a 30 % pay rise at Lufthansa..
We are fighting, and are ready for any consequences, we had enough!

So if BALPA is starting a campaign, then please support, it helps all of europe!!

Greetings and good luck from Germany!


[This message has been edited by Charly (edited 26 March 2001).]

26th Mar 2001, 12:00
As a BRAL pilot apparently being absorbed into the BA empire, I can see all sides here.
We are generally very pleased to be owned by BA with a certain amount of schadenfreude over what changes will occur in our largely reasonably happy airline. We are looking forward to getting at least a few paltry benefits from our subsumation into the Empire, mainly security I suppose.
However, it is easy to see that ourselves, Brymon and City Flyer are primarily being absorbed, not because of our profitability or the pulchritude of our cabin crew. It is a method of attempting to lower the BA pay scales over time, by creating an effective 'B' scale.
I only hope that BALPA are aware of this, and have a plan. If BA mainline continue to be shafted, then every single UK Airline will suffer - even the likes of our contented pal Raw Data. BA salaries, like it or not, are a benchmark.
Hence, any movement by BALPA to put the lot of us on the bottom of the BA seniority list should be viewed as part of the big picture, not in terms of short term disadvantage.
I firmly believe that our American friends are 100% right. We don't need flying pickets, but we do need to take a reality check, and stop believing the garbage about what is an affordable pilots salary. Think about Cathay. They are told the Company is in dire straits, losing money, overpaid pilots etc etc etc The pilots unwillingly go along with a reduction in benefits, albeit only slight. Suddenly, Cathay have a record year, record profits. No-one would seriously believe the small benefit reduction made such a difference, it is management posturing. We prove ourselves with a well operated sector, a smooth landing, an abnormal situation handled by the book. Most Management proves itself by macho posturing and reducing costs, to prove who is boss.
Phew, sorry to go on, but we really do need to get our act together .

26th Mar 2001, 12:29
Why isn’t BA profitable? Because under Ayling the airline went from 44000 to 66000 employees whilst ridding itself of highly experienced front line staff. Mission critical functions were contracting to cheap third-rate companies who don’t give a toss about BA’s customers or product. Meanwhile the massed ranks of suits established the opulent corporate palace at Waterworld and conspired to destroy the very fabric of the airline, selling off anything that wasn’t screwed down and screwing the staff in the process.

Staff costs in the period rose to Ģ3bn, which effectively stifled the profitability of the company without any net contribution to the bottom line. About the only high spot was the years freeze on the activity of the IT Empire which gave us 12 months of trouble free operation. You can see for yourself what happens when they’re allowed back to work.

So sack 22000 suits and save one third of the staff costs which by my maths translates into Ģ1bn profit. Frankly I’m sick of working my butt off (most pilots reckon on having provided a 30% increase in credited hours over the last four years with a sub-zero reward) for no recognition. I don’t want profit related pay whilst these management morons destroy any hope we have of making any.

Give me a fixed percentage of the company’s turnover. Ģ9bn in the last two financial years shows clearly that there'’ nothing intrinsically wrong with the operation or the dedication and productivity of the uniform personnel. They always suck teeth and bleat about the size of any payclaim so I really don’t give a stuff what they think. If they can’t afford it they’ll have to make economies elsewhere. If they don’t know where the axe has to fall they can give me a call. :mad:


26th Mar 2001, 14:55
Just while the subject of IT is mentioned, someone said on another thread that BA IT staff have their date of birth as their date of joining, so they can be dirty cheaters on staff travel and push in ahead of real workers. Can anyone shed any light on this, and is anyone able to justify it?

Even though the CEP's are going nowhere for five years without bankrupting themselves, they still wait 6 months for concessions, i.e. JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE!!!

27th Mar 2001, 05:11
Yeah well, why don't all of you think of the Air Traffic Controllers and what they got as their pay rise?? 3%!!!! Marvellous!! *said in a deeply sarcastic tone*. Please remember that when you are moaning to us about slots/can't get requested level/direct routings/bits on fire/late off the gate/etc, that we are sat on the ground having our brains pounded into porridge day in day out by your collegues whilst simultaneously trying to do the best for one and all, and all for a 3% pay rise!!! If we were getting the money that the BA guys were getting then we'd be very happy indeed!!
Maybe you are not the only ones with problems out there!!!

The Resistance
27th Mar 2001, 06:07
Charly, sorry to have to correct you. As a fairly senior A-scale Captain at CX, my earnings last year were approx 270000 Euros. Not chicken feed...but quite poor when you consider the following: 1) no pension 2) no bidding - my schedule for the month is random, and usually fraught with inefficiencies 3) working under continual threat of dismissal - only 3 month notice WITHOUT cause needed! 4) poor medical benefits 5) no retirement medical benefits 6) hiring of pilots out of seniority (direct entry captain on the Freighters, on only half the regular pay) 7) continual stress of dealing with an immoral and venal management (oops, sorry, I realise we ALL are dealing with that...!). Needless to say, please don't buy into the CX management propaganda and myth. The 'old' CX is long gone, replaced by one of the most miserable and unhappy airlines in the industry. There is more to this profession than salary.....and many managements are looking at what CX's management has done to us.....so beware! ps, I wouldn't plan to travel on CX over the coming weeks if I were you...... :)

27th Mar 2001, 06:11
Sounds to me like BA is playing you guys for SUCKERS. When are you going to sack the idiots that lead your union and get some REAL leadership in there? You guys need to go over to Waterworld, dress up like indians, and toss some tea overboard!! It worked for us a few years ago.

[This message has been edited by Roadtrip (edited 27 March 2001).]

27th Mar 2001, 06:50
>>Charly, sorry to have to correct you. As a fairly senior A-scale Captain at CX, my earnings last year were approx 270000 Euros. Not chicken feed...but quite poor when you consider the following: <<

270 kiloeuros is awesome by British or Canadian standards, however, you're right, considering lack of other benefits, high cost of living and poor work rules, it pales in comparison to what senior U.S. widebody captains get these days.

Cathay was once a crown jewel of the expat world. Now, sadly, it's becoming just another flying job.

27th Mar 2001, 06:53
Love it, love it, love it!!

Finally we're gettting some balls!!

I love the % of turnover idea! As a measure of productivity I'll take that!

No pilots, no airline, no turnover, no profits. Who you gonna call Guv??

dallas dude
27th Mar 2001, 09:45
loaded 1,

I'm lucky enough to be with one of the top three US airlines although at one point I was gung-ho for BA (funny how things turn out).

I was thinking....you know EVERY Commercial pilot has a license from their government, issued after exhaustive and continual testing, that essentially PROVES they're an expert at what they do.

Airline management simply get to show up after some business school "training" and try their hand at managing airline resources.

"Go on, give it a go. You'll never know how bad you are until you give it a try!". I mean, it's not like they're going to injure someone. They'll just hurt the balance sheet. And so they do, and the employees get to pay for it!

And the BALPA club lets them get away with it.

As the great Ron Bain used to say ..."it was ever thus".

Seems to me if we pilots made as many stupid decisions, passengers would end up driving everywhere!


27th Mar 2001, 17:25
Hello "The Resistance".

Is the 270000 € after tax? Is your seniority approx. 15 yrs as Cpt.?

These details would help alot to varify our benchmark values from our Pilots Assoc. VC...

Thanks in advance

27th Mar 2001, 18:36
After years of abuse by COMAIR, at least the pilots are now growing some cajones. I hope their fellow regional brothers will follow their lead. One should be able to make a viable career in a regional airline without having to appologize for the paltry salary they make.

Abuses like pay-for-training and training bonds and disgraces upon the industry. An airline pilot that gets paid less than a tube train driver is a disgrace and insult, and cheapens the entire profession.

It's about time that the UK and EURO pilots grow some cajones. They need to get control of BALPA from the company kool-aid drinkers and take charge of their own fates. Why do you allow the company to squander money down ab initio training programs when there are more than enough good experienced pilots waiting in the wings for a right seat with BA? Why should a BA captain turn into a instructor pilot for a 200 hour F/O?? How can BA pilots allow outsourcing of THEIR jobs, and just sit back in obedient submission. What you'll find is that you'll save the once proud "World's Standard" airline, BA, from becoming just another victim of inept management and complacency. It's not my place to tell you guys that, but I am anyway. Sometimes it takes someone from the outside to tell you you're being screwed. You ARE.

You guys have a lot of work to do. Get to it.

[This message has been edited by Roadtrip (edited 27 March 2001).]

27th Mar 2001, 23:31
How can BA pilots allow outsourcing of THEIR jobs, and just sit back in obedient submission. What you'll find is that you'll save the once proud "World's Standard" airline, BA, from becoming just another victim of inept management and complacency. It's not my place to tell you guys that, but I am anyway. Sometimes it takes someone from the outside to tell you you're being screwed. You ARE.

- Great posting!

Raw Data
28th Mar 2001, 02:51
Amazing how many people run off at the mouth without actually READING what is WRITTEN. For the benefit of those who have jumped to conclusions without engaging brains, let me just clarify for you:

I am in favour of:

- Union action (and strong action too) as a LAST RESORT when all negotiation has failed.

- A substantial general increase in pay and conditions for British pilots- they deserve it.

- British pilots being a little more insistent that their union works for their interests- BALPA do not seem particularly interested in improving our lot- Mr Darkes' very substantial renumeration should be linked to performance IMHO. I can't see how he justifies that sort of salary.

- An assertive recognition that pilots are not just aerial bus drivers, as the public are increasingly perceiving us to be. We deserve a LOT more than we get, when you take into account the nature of the job.

I am against:

- Union bully-boy tactics- a return to the Britain of the 50's.

- Any form of action against those whose conscience prevents them from joining a union (however short-sighted and self-serving that might be). I would however say that such people should be excluded from any union-negotiated improvements, if possible.

- A strong and effective union with hard-nosed and results-oriented officials. Our present union is a limp fish compared to those in most first-world countries.

Finally, I believe that most things can be achieved by skillful negotiation- in a sense, if a strike happens both sides have lost. If you want to see an example of how not to do things, check out the archives on the recent Ansett NZ dispute in New Zealand. A disaster for all concerned. Also, I stand by what I said about factors besides money- these things are important as well.

Disagree with me if you want, but disagree with what I have written, not what you THINK I have written!!

28th Mar 2001, 14:04
One thing that seems very clear from all the postings is that BA are seen to set the benchmark for pilot salaries within the UK and unfortunately this is causing concern for everyone as the 'benchmark' seems to be sliding. In order to regain ground a large rise appears to be necessary. One of the management tactics will undoubtedably be to use the press to undermine this rise and suggest that pilots are being greedy. I suggest a good tactic to counter this would be to suggest that a 5% rise or a 50% rise is not what pilots are after. The botton line is that the community is undervalued and therefore a large rise is necessary to achieve market rate. This would alleviate not only a problem of people saying that BA pilots have held the company to ransom for their own greed but also other groups of staff would perhaps then see that pilots have long been undervalued.

Captain Jumbo
28th Mar 2001, 19:53
Absolutely right.

And furthermore, look at Lufthansa. It sems our Teutonic friends are once again showing us the way forward.

SIZE MATTERS, (wallets and metal!)

29th Mar 2001, 09:25
Second Segment writes....

<<30% lads.....dream on. Is it really credible that BA, or for that matter any employer, to raise the salary of a single group by 30%. I can almost hear the ground engineers whinging from here!>>

Where ya been? United signed a deal last summer with those numbers and more of a raise!



The Resistance
29th Mar 2001, 09:58
Charly, sorry for the delay (flying ANOTHER crappy schedule....). The figure quoted was BEFORE tax. Year 8 Captain. Figures rise by about 1800 Euros per year. CX is the most miserable, demoralised airline in the industry (doubt this.....just have a read of the 'Fragrant Harbour' forum....). We are suffering from the most incompetent and venal management of the present age. I wouldn't wish them on my most ruthless competitor..... Good luck to all in your respective battles with management.

29th Mar 2001, 19:55
What about getting some professional advice and muscle from the USA. BALPA needs the US unions on its side who have the power and mega money to take BA on. We don't want to go out on strike but from past experience the company will offer little and expect more productivity with any new deal. If I am called out on strike it would be nice to know the company couldn't sack me or take my pension away without risking another strike. The US unions would also be able to fund our basic wages and not petty cash which is all BALPA can afford.

29th Mar 2001, 22:27
Why on earth do you need the help of ALPA when all you have to do is ask your cabin staff how to deal with management!

29th Mar 2001, 23:43
Astrocyte - good comment!
Certainly BA cabin crew unions have done an excellent bloody job - (refer recent raises for CSD's - an dprotection of contractural T's and C's). There results make BALPA look like children.

30th Mar 2001, 18:18
Most ammusing, reading this thread. I'm sure that all you BA jocks hanker back to the old pre-privatisation days when the company existed for the benefit of its employees and stuff the passengers. You may recall that the airline then was losing stupendous amounts of money, but still lavished enormous annual payrises and perks on its own people. I recall that the airline actually ran up a debt of over a thousand million pounds! All written off in the end of course, all more tax payers money down the drain.

It's all about hard commercial reality now guys! Don't kill the old Golden Goose!

30th Mar 2001, 20:51
There's been much talk about the action (or lack thereof) of BALPA and the previous deal. I'm not a rep, but let's not forget that we have a new and far more determined BACC. They have been busy gathering data on all the airlines and, I'm assured, will be going for a decent rise. The previous, pathetic deal, signed up by the 'old' regime has been taken onboard by the 'newies', who know they will be lynched if they come back with anything like the reduction in pay we got as a result of the stupid Corporate Deal. We all need to make sure we give them our undivided support when it comes to the 'talks' later on in the year.

As for where the money will come from. Circa 200 paypoint 24s retiring this year, to be replaced by pathetically paid TEPs and CEPs. There's a bunch of dosh. What about all the management costs that will be retrieved (allegedly) thanks to the seamless (you've got to hate these management words) integration of CFE and the fact that they will come under BA management (yeah, right). We've already heard about all the computer dudes....oh, no I forgot, thye just wasted countless millions thanks to their marvellous system upgrade. You know, the one that went so smoothly that the whole of BA crashed. That's why we have to pay these experts so much, give them 1st class staff travel and then sub-contract all the important programming anyway. Roobarb hits the nail on the head with the Pravda brigade at Waterworld. I just wish Rod would wake up and get rid of anyone who does not DIRECTLY contribute to the profits.

As to the cabin crew, loaders etc.....I don't care. It might sound really P*&$ poor CRM etc, but I'm not in this game to campaign for their wages. If they can get a rise, good on them, if they can't then they're probably earning too much anyway (not the loaders), but certainly the coffee pourers for the job they do....much more than FOs etc.

I reckon we need to take a long and hard look at how the Colonials across the Pond do these things. We've been too nice for too long and just had the management take the p*&% at every step. We should have gone on strike last time and re-established our position in the big scheme of things. Conceated, maybe, but I'd like to see them run an airline without pilots.

My advice to our BALPA boys and girls. Get the deal sorted before going in. Put it on the table and present it as a fait accompli. There should be no negotiation. This is what the pilots want (having previously established EXACTLY what we do want beforehand) and unless we get it we go on strike. I will certainly be on the picket line, happy to remind our esteemed managers of the pay reduction we've suffered since first giving up money after the Gulf.

And for those who say BA pilots are a greedy, money grabbing bunch, just remember that (a) we are SIGNIFICANTLY underpaid compared to our coleagues in Lufthansa, Air France etc, ie comparable airlines and (b) snobbish though it may sound, the oft quoted saying: when BA sneezes the rest of the British airline industry catches a cold = we get paid more, you get paid more....and I hope you all do.

There, that's a bit of a spleen vent isn't it.

Bottom line....go for it BALPA, you've got Pontius at your side!!

Toodle pip,


You Ain't Seen Me - Right !!

FO Nigetrussoxide
30th Mar 2001, 21:07
Summed up beautifully. Well said.

Captain Jumbo
30th Mar 2001, 22:34
Well said mate, right on the nail!!!!!

30th Mar 2001, 22:49
right on pontus!!!! exactly

Fat Tony
31st Mar 2001, 04:52
Agree entirely...

BALPA mentioned they had received (quote) 'an unprecedented number of letters on this topic recently' and that they were looking at the options...or something like that.
I say, the more of us write in and show our total non-acceptance of their pathetic actions over this in years of late, the more chance we have of convincing them that, funny enough, we are serious about this issue.
As a BA boy my self (4 years-ish CEP) I am increasingly amazed by the figures some of my friends are making in other professions, and I ain't happy with it!
We should stand together and tell our beloved company to move with the times or face the consequences... Maybe we can learn a heck of a lot from our US colleagues and Lufty.
The point really is that we cannot accept any more deals that put us further behind... and we need a very large boost now to catch up with happenings elsewhere.
So, BA management... you are going to have some very major issues and problems on your plate soon. My advice is: don't underestimate us.

Fat Tony

31st Mar 2001, 07:03
Good on you Fat Tony.


31st Mar 2001, 10:20
Pontius, I wish you and your colleagues well in what apparently lies ahead.

However, I can't let one of your comments pass unremarked: "My advice to our BALPA boys and girls. Get the deal sorted before going in. Put it on the table and present it as a fait accompli. There should be no negotiation. This is what the pilots want (having previously established EXACTLY what we do want beforehand) and unless we get it we go on strike."

The sense of deja vu that comes over me on reading those words is almost overwhelming. A quick history lesson from the colonies, if I may: twelve years ago, another pilot group with an equally compelling and valid set of grievances took industrial action for a 29.47% pay rise. (How much was it you fellows were asking for? - spooky!) The rhetoric from the ranks in the months leading up to the confrontation was probably even more outspoken than what I've seen here.

The union reps did exactly what you've quoted above - and to cut a very long story short, they and the almost two thousand pilots they represented were utterly defeated. What's interesting about the rout that ensued is how they were defeated. It was not by management per se, but by two factors, the second, (which I'll mention first), stemming directly from the first.

(2) some, (after nine long months, approx 23%), of the very people who had demanded action, folded when push came to shove. What's interesting about those 23% is that many of them were among the most outspoken in demanding industrial action in the months leading up to the confrontation. Which leads me to the first reason:

(1) pilots, mostly from the UK charter airlines, flocked half way around the world to quite gleefully undermine the industrial action being taken by pilots who they perceived had 'had it too good for too long'. (This is not my interpretation of their actions - this is paraphrasing what some of them said on television when they first arrived.)

I put it to you that the collective leopard doesn't change its spots. Whatever the real picture might be, you in BA are perceived by many of your countrymen who also fly commercially for 'lesser' airlines to have and it far too good for too long. Those same people will come out of the woodwork to take your jobs or undermine any action you take. I only have to look at the incredibly muddled thinking displayed in some of the earlier posts on this thread to see that you'll have your '23%' as well.

For those of you who think you're a member of the professional class and should be above that nasty, grubby working class agitation like picket lines and strike action, you're in for a very rude shock. And if it does reach the point where you all go out on strike, I'll be very interested to see how attitudes change towards those with "conscientious objections" to maintaining the position the majority voted for.

31st Mar 2001, 14:54
Sounds like you should be, a rep that is. I couldn't agree more - well said.

Thank you for your subtle reminder. However I do feel that a) BA are expecting a large claim - witness RE's recent comments. b) the present industrial/political climate in the UK is a little less confrontational than it would have been at the time of your dispute in Oz.

31st Mar 2001, 15:19
Itīs all about "supply and demand"...
Always was and will be.

They canīt run the show without us!

You splitter
31st Mar 2001, 16:02
Sorry guys trying to get some enthusiasum for this thread. As much as I hope you all get what you are looking for, I also know damn well where they will find the exta money from.

Those of us on the ground who don't have a union to represent us will suffer yet another pay freeze/cut to subsidise the increased earnings of you lot.

Not your fault, I know, and if I was you I probably wouldn't care. Still at least I know what were in for!

2nd Apr 2001, 02:52
@ Resistance

Thank you for the information. Hope management doesnīt "manage" to ruin the reputation of a great airline entirely.
Hang in there

2nd Apr 2001, 03:43
Guys, not a BA pilot but as another Uk professional with another airline i really hope you get the 30%. Stunned to hear stories of cc earning more and so much general dissatisfaction in the comnpany. No, i do not think we are "better" than cc, however, the training required alone for flightdeck is much more intense, involved and skillful not to mention stressful and uncertain. Consequently, as the buck stops with us if it goes t*ts up the pay should reflect this. I really do think next winter will make or break "flying" in the uk as a decent career choice, by this i mean our ability to be united and stand our ground and get decent deals in major companies.
Am also stunned ar VS guys accepting their 5%?? Do they know something else is in the pipe line soon?
Ok, enough ranting, good luck with the negotiations and hopefully a good result will be achieved!!!

p.s. are BALPA really gonna try??

Raw Data
2nd Apr 2001, 17:27

>> I'll be very interested to see how attitudes change towards those with "conscientious objections" to maintaining the position the majority voted for. <<

It may have escaped your attention, but companies are not democracies, and what the "majority" may or may not have decided is irrelevant to those outside the union. Union membership is not compulsory here (thank God), and hopefully never will be. People have a right to choose.

I remember, many moons ago when driving a courier van in NZ in the university holiday, I was legally required to join the union... compulsory unionism being the way at that time. When I had cause to enlist the help of said union, I found them totally unhelpful, lethargic and uninterested in their members. Because they did not need to recruit members, and were therefore not accountable, their performance was pathetic. That is the danger of compulsory unionism.

The type of militant unionism on show in Australia (just like the UK of the '50s) is equally inept when it comes to getting results- for the simple reason of supply and demand, as wonderbusdriver has mentioned above.

These days, if you want to get results, you need to be smart as well as strong. Ganging up on non-union members, threatening their families etc., will not endear us to anyone. We have to be smarter than that.

Yes, some non-union members may benefit from industrial action. So what? Some have legitimate objections to being uninvolved in unions.

The sort of thing hinted at by Wiley (and others) is childish, immature and despicable. If you can't win members by reason and argument, you have already lost the moral high ground.

For those who think I'm anti-union, I'm not; I've been in unions all my working life, and have served as a union official. I do, however, believe in a civilised approach to union activities (unlike our Australian brethren during '89).