LOGBOOK!! "Under jar-fcl 1.080"

[Tomomac33]

Hi,

I’m struggling a little with "how to correctly" log my hours! - go easy with me because I’m new to this game! And I’ve asked a number of different instructors and they all have different answers (basically none of them know!)

* I have recently completed my Jaa Ppl in America with night rating.

* I have the Jeppessen jar compliant log book.

SCENARIOS

1. When I was "under instruction" for my JAA PPL I obviously didn’t hold any license - therefore am I correct to say that I log all flight time under the DUAL column? - The PIC's name was my INSTRUCTOR's name and he would SIGN the logbook?

2. Now, when I went SOLO for the first time and then after (i.e. Circuits and X-country's) am I "PIC" Or "SPIC" (student PIC)? - Either way I’m guessing I log this in the "PIC COLUMN" and put my name as PIC - If I was SPIC do I need to write this in the remarks column?

3. So once I complete my JAA PPL and become licensed, I then go on to do my Night rating - So whilst I’m with the instructor on my Night rating training am I "SPIC" because I am now a qualified pilot or am I "DUAL"?? - Therefore do I log the time under the PIC column or DUAL Column. Then when I do SOLO time at night for my rating am I PIC or SPIC??

4. Now this bit really confuses me! - Since completing my JAA PPL I didn’t fly for several months - when I returned to the UK I had a couple of lessons with an instructor to "get me back into it!" - But I’m a fully qualified pilot that didn’t legally need him! - does this make me PIC, PICUS (pilot in command under supervision) Or DUAL!

5. I have just been back to the USA for 12 Days for a bit of hour building fun - but I went by my self so I had a USA Instructor with as company. Now I have made my license fully legal in the USA (converted to FAA) so I didn’t need him! But he was there and gave advice with areas I was unsure with! - Is this DUAL, PIC or PICUS? And if it is either DUAL or PICUS does he need to sign it?


You can see that this thread is very "long winded" and I’m guessing SOOOO basic to most people - but know one seems to be able to give definite answers for me

Please can someone help clear this up?

Many Thanks in advance

Tom

[tescoapp]

1. Dual no need to have a signature under JAR rules but the yanks sign anything

2. Solo so PIC

3 Dual then solo for the 2 hours PIC

4. dual unless you agree before hand with the instructor you are PIC if in doudt dual

5. Dual if he has signed the tech log as PIC. If you sign the aircraft out you are PIC.

You can't log PICUS unless you are doing a flight test and pass or are doing and intergrated cpl/ir course.

Usually in the uK know one signs log books but the yanks seem to sign everything in what ever pen comes to hand.

I would advise in the future you have a US log book and let them scribble what ever they like and then keep your proper log book away from the CFI's unless you decide to complete a FAA rating. Don't let them know you have a JAR log book because it really will hurt a FAA instructors feelings if he thinks that his comments on your life, attitude and flying ability arn't recorded in your log book for everyone to see for the the rest of your life. Although it is quite amusing when you chuck the FAA one in the bucket after your weeks flying, the bottom lip starts quivering.

Its really not a daft question and as you say UK FI's give very different opinions. And the rules are completely different under FAA rules.

[Whirlybird]

Just a few points to add....

I've never heard of SPIC....must be an American invention.

Don't get another log book, and don't throw away ANYTHING. You might need those signatures, and they're proof to the CAA if foreign flying is ever queried for the hours - I've never had it happen, but I've heard rumours of it. And extra signatures etc won't do any harm; at the very least, they're nice souvenirs of flying trips in years to come.

Basically, when solo you log PIC or P1, with your name in log book as in command. With an instructor, you log P UT, in the dual column, with his/her name as pilot in command. The only exceptions to this are a test or check ride which you pass, which is then PICUS or P1S; or if you decide in advance that the instructor is just along for the ride and is legally a passenger. Sometimes, in practice, I've asked afterwards and been told something like, "You can log it as P1 if you like; I didn't touch the controls and I don't need the hours". Is this legal? We could debate it for hours, and probably not, strictly speaking, so decide yourself how you feel about that and what you want to log, if it happens.

This is a basic question, but I agree - you will get many, many different answers. What I did - and I'm not saying this is right - was learn the usual rules, and if I got told anything different for grey areas, go along with whatever the instructor said. In the long run, it doesn't matter that much if the odd line is "wrong". And I'm told the CAA doesn't get upset about occasional anomalies, and they've seen my log book and not objected, and I have American signatures and stamps and also Russian ones and tippex and photos and God only knows what else in my log book!

If still in doubt, make a note in the remarks column.

Sorry this isn't as cut and dried as you'd probably like, but I hope it helps.

[tescoapp]

Its basically up to the instructor but the controlling document is the tech log.
Which is why it should be agreed before leaving. It is legal but the instrutor is on a bit of a limb if anything goes wrong. The SPIC is another JAR thing for intergrated students.
The comments about yank instructors is purley from personal experense. I don't have a problem with BFR recording.

BUt under the JAR rules there is no requirement for signatures unless you are PICUS in a multicrew aircraft or intergrated course. You don't even get one after you sit your SPA IR test I asked and got told my test cert was good enough. The logging of hours is different. Under FAA rules it is legal to log PIC for your BFR under JAR rules you are not it is DUAL.

The reason why I started doing it was when one lad who was hour building went up and had never even seen a chandle or that flying round a spot thing they do. And also the standard PFL as taught in the Uk was not acceptable. It bold red ink in his perfect log book the instructor scrawled over half a page of drivel about him failing his flight check. This is the log book that he is going to have to present at interview, I now know that they don't even look at your PPL stuff but the red ink would grab anyones eye while flicking through.

At which point an Army lad had a word with the rest of us and we all bought a 7$ FAA logbook and transfered across 2 pages worth so it appeared as if it was a second log book. The BFR was recorded in that log book and was used for the fortnight so it was all legal. At the end of the fortnight we transfered the hours across in our JAR log books and got the the chief instructor to stamp and sign that the hours were correct. And then the FAA one was binned. Everything was legal for both countries. Thankfully i didn't have to fly with the instructor who had a fetish for red ink. But a couple of the lads were quite glad that they had used an extra one. There was a rumour that he had failed his JAR medical class 1 on eye sight and no green card so had a bit chip on his shoulder. Its not worth risking a very important document to the whim of someone that doesn't have a clue about your country's rules and regulations.

Next time your over doing an extra BFR is more than a good thing with a bit of ground school and does your check ride as well, or you could just keep your old FAA log book from the last trip. Personally I would recommend paying the extra and getting one of the Gold CFI's from my limited experence they get it for a reason.

Edited to add

The debate about how to log stuff has been going on for years. Everyone has various ideas on the way to do it. Even the CAA license people seem to have different ideas, you can have 2 identical log books and when applying for a license one will get passed and the other returned.
People have emailed them, phoned them and written to them to get things clarified and they will just refer you to Lasors. They must have thousands of enquiries on this subject but they won't commit themselves to paper by producing a FAQ. And when FCL gets shifted to europe I have no doudt that the interpretation of the rules will change again.

[BillieBob]

I've never heard of SPIC....must be an American invention.Nope, entirely a European invention - but it's only available on an integrated course so not relevant to this discussion.

[Whirlybird]

You can tell instructors you don't want them to write in your log book. It's YOUR log book; you have that choice, and in JAR-land you don't need signatures. Some instructors may not like it, but that's their problem, not yours.

[shortstripper]

I've always found logging hours quite simple here in the UK. Any dual time with an instructor is logged P u/t, unless like whirly say's, he/she allows you to log P1 (in effect they were a passenger). Someone has to log P1 so this is ok in my book. I occassionally fly with an instructor friend. If it's an instructional flight then it's P u/t, but if we're just flying together then we decide who's P1 (even an instructor can be a passenger). Flights with an examiner for a test which is passed are be logged as P1/S and any solo flight, or flights in command are P1. Only one person can log P1, so your role during flights with fellow PPL's have to be agreed between yourselves. P2 and other logging is usually for commercial crew unless the aircraft is required to have two pilots and you are actually P2 (not many that PPL's can fly spring to mind but I know there are a few).

P1 and PIC are the same thing.

SS

[foxmoth]

(not many that PPL's can fly spring to mind but I know there are a few).

A PPL can actually fly any type, just not on a straight SEP rating:8

[DFC]

You can tell instructors you don't want them to write in your log book. It's YOUR log book; you have that choice, and in JAR-land you don't need signatures. Some instructors may not like it, but that's their problem, not yours.

Not true. Instructors are only too aware of when they are required to write in a student's log book.

As for making a copy of a logbook but leqaving certain bits out and destroying the one with the comments written by an instructor - totally illegal. Is is a requirement to retain all logbooks for two years after the last entry.

Falsifying logbooks carrys a very high financial penalty of about £2500 per line!

Regards,

DFC

[shortstripper]

A PPL can actually fly any type, just not on a straight SEP rating

I didn't know that ...... So when can I P2 with you in some heavy metal then Foxmoth? :cool:

SS

[S-Works]

Not true. Instructors are only too aware of when they are required to write in a student's log book.
As for making a copy of a logbook but leqaving certain bits out and destroying the one with the comments written by an instructor - totally illegal. Is is a requirement to retain all logbooks for two years after the last entry.
Falsifying logbooks carrys a very high financial penalty of about £2500 per line!
Regards,
DFC

Not true either, a record of the flight must be kept for 2 years. Transferring to another logbook is not illegal, the requirements of keeping a record of the flight are met. Transferring to another log book does not constitute falsifying anything. If the book had become damaged you are within your rights to transfer the entries to another one or to a roll of toilet paper, napkin or matchbox. If you have a whim and want a different log book it is your choice.

The limits of what an instructor is entitled to write in a log book are a signature and licence number on successfull completion of a flight or nothing if a failure and remedial action required. It is not an Instructors right to deface someone else's property with red ink or comments.
If the owner of the logbooks agrees then they can make any addittional comments by mutual consent. I along with many others on here have a whole load of comments from instructors and fellow pilots that enhance the memory the log book contains.

[tescoapp]

I presume you are refering to the ANO 2005 PART 7 (http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2005/20051970.htm#88)

The ANO also describes what is required to be recorded. Which the ramblings of Instructors is not part of the required data. Your 2 year check for SEP and any differences training. And I believe the disability type conversions as well.

You have to on request produce a log book with the data that is required by the ANO.

You can even go electronic if you wish and as long as all the data is correct and each page is signed by the holder the CAA will accept it.

You only have to have available a personal log book. It doesn't say it must be the original or the second copy or even if its your best one that you keep at home kept in a nitrogen rich enviroment in a fire safe. Nothing more than that data in the ANO is required.

As the BFR is not a flight test in relation to the order it doesn't have to be recorded under JAR. Which is why it is classed as DUAL not PIC as under the FAR's, it still has to be logged as a flight.

What they are talking about when refering to falsifying is when you adjust your landing time to appear you han't contravened the night flying rules when you don't have a night qual. Missing out a flight, so it appears you only had one shot at a flight test. Alterating a date so it appears you only have to do a 1 hour with an instructor instead of a flight test with an examiner for your SEP.

SS you still have to do the rest of the training as well ie type rating and all the ticks in boxes that requires. I believe there are a few Lear jet pilots out there who are flying the own planes on a PPL.

Mind you saying all this I don't have a clue about the FAR's so it could be a given right for them to scrawl over your log book. And a 10 year stretch for dissing a FAA FI by consigning thier thoughts on life to to the bucket.

[BillieBob]

....when can I P2 with you in some heavy metal....When you have 100 hours P1, a multi-engine instrument rating, have passed all of the ATPL theoretical knowledge examinations, completed the MCC course and passed the relevant MPA type rating course.....but you only need to hold a PPL

[shortstripper]

I was joking actually :rolleyes:

I thought PPL's were limited to 5200kg, but somewhere in the dim and distant past, I had heard that they could fly non passenger heavier stuff under a suitably qualified P1. P2 is IIRC only allowed to be logged in aircraft actually needing two pilots,

SS

[tescoapp]

Its 5700kg or a turboprop is the limit before type rating.

You can fly an Islander on a PPL MEP rating if you so wish. Or a cessna 404 but its turbine sister the F406 you need a type rating for.

Under JAR each member of the flight crew must be rated to operate. Both people have the same training and as can be seen by the ryan air thread in rumour and news the First officer is expected to command the aircraft if required.

I am not even going to try to explain the differences with the FAR's as there are many difference's depending on which part you are operating on (which i have a fleeting knowledge of).

With any luck ca-flyer will give us a brief summary on how and when two people can log time in a single crew aircraft under FAR rules. I wouldn't mind knowing anyway.

To be honest this discussion has gone way beyond private flying (my fault :D) and is more into the "wannabies" with the problems they have with hour building scheme's in the US. Some company's offering 100-200 hours multi engine time for 10 000$ in single crew aircraft acting as second pilot. Under the FAR's you can log it. Under JAR you can't log a single minute of it. Which its very important to ensure that you don't have an FAA pilot/instructor on board at any point in your hour building if you can help it.

I must admit I had multiple windows open and didn't realise the post was in the private forum. I spotted hour building and thought it was a wannabie who if they didn't get their log book right it could cause huge amounts of hassel later (and quite a bit of expense and fustration). If your a pilot operating under private licensing rules it really doesn't matter.

[DFC]

Transferring to another log book does not constitute falsifying anything.

True provided that an accurate transfer of the information therein takes place. However, if asked to produce logbooks within 2 years of doing such a transfer, the original logbook that was copied would need to be produced as well.

The limits of what an instructor is entitled to write in a log book are a signature and licence number on successfull completion of a flight or nothing if a failure and remedial action required. It is not an Instructors right to deface someone else's property with red ink or comments.
If the owner of the logbooks agrees then they can make any addittional comments by mutual consent. I along with many others on here have a whole load of comments from instructors and fellow pilots that enhance the memory the log book contains.

I can not see why any instructor would "deface" or write all over a log book in red ink.

Where we keep student records, then they satisfy the requirement for keeping a record of what was done on the flight etc. However, in cases where no student record is retained eg checkout, then the instructor should record when the checkout is completed. This actually protects the logbook holder as the instructor can not later claim that there was further training recomended.

Any logbook holder is entitled to sue an instructor who makes false statements in their logbook which could affect their employment prospects.

Regards,

DFC

[S-Works]

True provided that an accurate transfer of the information therein takes place. However, if asked to produce logbooks within 2 years of doing such a transfer, the original logbook that was copied would need to be produced as well.
I can not see why any instructor would "deface" or write all over a log book in red ink.
Where we keep student records, then they satisfy the requirement for keeping a record of what was done on the flight etc. However, in cases where no student record is retained eg checkout, then the instructor should record when the checkout is completed. This actually protects the logbook holder as the instructor can not later claim that there was further training recomended.
Any logbook holder is entitled to sue an instructor who makes false statements in their logbook which could affect their employment prospects.
Regards,
DFC
You always do such wordy climb downs.....:D