Ground employment (Operations or Dispatch) - leading to a flying job?

[Maple 01]

Hope this is the right forum to ask, if not can a mod move it to the correct one please? 40 year old ex-RAF Radar/Int recently de-mobbed on health grounds (nothing serious, RAF don't like diabetics) missing working near aircraft. Minimal line experience but keen and willing to work for peanuts if it gets me in with any aviation related ground job – any hints and tips? One problem, stuck in Norwich

[ali1]

Hi there,

I would go along to norwich airport with a CV. I'm sure they'll have a handling company or their maybe jobs available in ops for some of the small airlines based there. Also might be jobs available refuelling etc.

All the best

Ali1

[FLIGHTA1]

Hello, am a wannabe graduating soon, and i am looking for an internship in Europe. Anyone know requirements, where i might start looking or asking? thanks!
Upon graduation i will have CPL with instrument and multiengine rating. I would prefer a flight operations internship at a regional/corporate airline. I will also be graduating with a degree in Aviation Management. I am not picky!

Edited by Scroggs to delinate this post from his previously identical one in Wannabes

[Re-Heat]

What exactly are you looking for? You appear to be from the USA, therefore you would need the right to live and work here first. Secondly, are you a qualified grauate pilot, plain graduate from a university, looking for ground ops, flight deck or what?

Clarify and someone may be able to help.

[FLIGHTA1]

Hello, am a wannabe graduating soon, and i am looking for an internship or low hour recruitment in Europe.Anyone know requirements, where i might start looking or asking? thanks!
Upon graduation i will have CPL with instrument and multiengine rating. I would prefer a flight operations internship or recruitment at a regional/corporate airline. I will also be graduating with a degree in Aviation Management. I am not picky, anything that will get me to the airlines as FO!

[scroggs]

'Internships' do not exist in Europe, at least not in any way that you would understand them in the USA. You are either employed or you are not. If you wish to work within a European airline, in whatever capacity, you will need to be fully qualified for the job you aspire to. That will include (for a pilot) having the right to live and work within the EU, having a JAA Class 1 medical, and having the correct JAA licences.

You will have to explain further your qualifications before you can get any useful advice.

Scroggs

PS And don't multiple post on this forum. Your post on Operations has been edited.

[NG-dude]

Also realise that you're putting yourself smack in the same situation that most new european pilots are in after completing their training. I'd say by leaving the U.S to fight for a job in europe you're making it much harder for yourself. The CPL > CFI > Regional > major airline route is still very much viable in america. In europe expect a bond or self-funded rating at the least and if you don't have your JAA cert. and medical plus work permit then you're really heading for trouble. I'd stay put personally.

[Stpaul]

Stay in the states, I agree with the above, there is a clearly defined and well worked route to getting a job, plus there are lots of employers recruiting.Its soooooooooooo much easier than over here.

You will have a big problem with getting work in Europe unless you have an European passport or work visa.

If it was easy all you lot would be over here and all the european pilots with around 1000+ hours will be going over there.

There is another problem americans have with travelling over here.......none of you own a passport!

[FLIGHTA1]

Thanks for the advice, i thought it was going to be easier there but it sounds tougher. So what are the average hours required for the regional airlines? I thought hour requirements were much less in Europe especially if you go throught accelerated training.
By the way I do own a passport, I am not an american, and i don't have the right to work and live in the E.U. Isn't the process easier if you get a job first, then process the paper work?

[wbryce]

If there was no demand for the job then yes but unfortunately the catch22 for you is that most employers list as a requirement "right to work and live in the EU"....fail to meet this they will most likely not look further into your application.

[FLIGHTA1]

So does anyone do or has any experince with internships/attachments? And are flight instructors in demand?

[mightymouse111]

No right to live in the UK....no job! (enough people here fighting for work without employers worring about others!)

Definately not the other way around!

You would be an idiot to leave America with their system and come over here!

Waste of time for you discussing further! Sorry!

[SuperDuperFLY]

...So obviously recruitment in ops starts in 2007, and it seems it would be hard to get a look in before that (although I havent YET tried).
My situation is that, I'm looking to work airside, love early mornings, love the cold, love being within close proximity to any a/c. I have 3 languages, and a Bsc. I'll have a PPL, IMC, NR, Multi by Jan (yes I am being cheap= USA)... and NO former aviation employment!
I want to work as much as possible to learn new things and get my size 10's in the door (ATPL wanabee). Looking to work for >10 months.
......here is the Q:
In this case, what is a better option, apply to those airlines that hire from within/allow ladder climbing [eg BMI]... or stick to places like Servisair whos requirments are less stringent?
I dont care about pay as its only approx. 1 year, I just want to learn and meet. I'm not a fan of CV bashing and want to focus on 2 or 3 companies.
PS: who ELSE, apart from BMI have been known to hire from within to FO positions?....sorry for being LONG! :confused:

[paulriggers]

Don't want to hijack too much but along the same lines, how does a career in air traffic set you up for a flying job, anyone tread that path before, do employers like it?

[Penworth]

I know people who were offered interviews/sim rides with My Travel as a result of already working for them. They only seem to recruit in small numbers though.

PW

[rocketboots]

Don`t bother with BA.Their are good people i know within the airline who have all the qualifications for the job and more,i.e also fully licensed ground engineers on Boeing and Airbuses,flight engineers licences oh and of course the cpl/ir frozen ATPL. They have worked for the company on average for 15 years and have been told under no circumstances will they get a sniff.Person in charge of this would rather take a chance on some young kid straight out of an intergrated course.Heard all the tosh about continuity of training blah,blah blah.:= := :=

[Lucifer]

Heard all the tosh about continuity of training blah,blah blah.
It is not tosh - BA have taken and do take some few modular. They have in the past had extremely large problems with some of those not being able to cope with the pressure, requiring further expensive training, and as a result will only touch those with one clear training record completed in minimum time. Remember that exceptions prove the rule - they too will take an exceptional modular candidate if that is demonstrated to them, but don't make life hard for yourself.

Ladder climbing is more likely in smaller operations rather than large bureaucracies, however take a commercial flying job wherever you are able, and don't limit your options as you could focus on the wrong 2 or 3, else you will struggle.

[rocketboots]

In actual fact i think you will find that a large amount of pilots within BA come from the modular route and fly quite happily without buckling under the pressure???????.However they were employed before the current regime were put in place.Don`t get me wrong,the chance of doing a fully intergrated course all nipped in the bud in the shortest time is great, but at the end of the day we are not all as fortunate as otherS to do this. The bottom line is that we all have to sit the same ground exams and fly the same flight tests.In this no quater is given and therefore lmplying that intergrated training holds a higher degree of learning than that of modular is tosh.This is getting off the thread somewhat and so in summary to the original question yes join an airline, you may get lucky, especially at a smaller outfit.

[Lucifer]

Off topic I know, but experienced hires - yes there are modular in BA.
Those without an unfrozen ATPL - situation is as I said and has been so for over a decade.

Regarding sitting the same exams - not the point. Read scroggs' post at http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=244158

Not to mention that you have totally contradicted yourself within two posts.

In actual fact i think you will find that a large amount of pilots within BA come from the modular route and fly quite happily without buckling under the pressure
and

Person in charge of this would rather take a chance on some young kid straight out of an intergrated course.

[rocketboots]

Note
Hired before the current regime.Hence no contradiction.

[SuperDuperFLY]

So BA is out the window... To be honest they were not even in my shortlist- I KNOW they require a bit of airline experience first, something on ticketing or cabin crew [loooooonng!].

Basically I want to get some cover letters off this month, I KNOW that hiring doesnt realy start until January, but I think a cover letter, phone call, CV, 2nd phone call then visit = should get me IN [or IN-terview]... but I'm up for researching the company for a few days to impress and show appropriate interest, so which companies are worth the research... who would I be wasting my time with? [bearing in mind my aspirations for FO]

[rocketboots]

Try and target airlnes themselves, but not handling agents.I would suggest Dispatch AS you can network with the pilots etc and they can tell you whos whos and in my mates case who now flies a jet for a charter airline thats exactly what he did.

Incidently he perviously worked for BA and was turned down so left and took a gamble and it payed off.Now flying a B757/767 as first job.Now thats pressure.Evev fixes them down route to get them back every now and then.Good luck

[Superpilot]

My advice would be to think it through carefully. Earning £800 to £1,200 a month with a mortgage/rent and flying training debts amounts to a very unhealthy lifestyle. On the other hand, Ryanair have advertised at least 4 crew controller and pilot recruitment officer roles in the last 6 months. Paying in the region of £20k - Not bad.

[Maude Charlee]

Loads of pilots out there who started their aviation career in ground handling (myslef included). Rubbish pay, but you work the same shift pattern as you will on the flight deck and get day to day contact with a variety of crews. If the finances aren't critical, it's a great way to get started - I loved it in all honesty.

[SuperDuperFLY]

Maude Charlee,
Would you be able to give specific advice regarding the original question?
Also...while we're at it- how do you suppose it is looks to the general employer, when the applicant holds a PPL.
I mean I would love to add it on my CV to show I have an interest and that I know more than Joe Bloggs, but I don’t exactly want them to say: “this guy is a wanabee, he’ll leave us before we can say Easyjet”

[badboy raggamuffin]

Hi all,
have just been reading somewhere else on PPRUNE that getting a job in the operations/ dispatch department of an airline might be a decent way of getting in as a pilot with the same airline.
Might be being dumb, but am not exactly sure what kind of work such jobs involve, is it things like sorting out the mass and balance sheets, or is it stuff like working on the check in desk, etc?
Also, how easy are such jobs to get, and wot are the pay/ hours and conditions like?

Also, is getting such a job really the best plan of action for a guy with 250 hrs, as opposed to building up your hours through something like instructing? As far as I can make out, if you get a jobs in ops/ dispatch with an airline, ur only really increasing your chances of getting a job with that airline, is it really that much use in the grand scheme of things?

I apologise to the "do a search" crew, I know this must be discussed somewhere else on PPRUNE, but was unable to find anything with the search facility.

Cheers, badboy.

[swervin'mervin]

Might be being dumb, but am not exactly sure what kind of work such jobs involve
You have almost answered your own question! Yes a job in ops will give you a much greater appreciation to how the industry runs. Its not all about the pilots you know! This is where a lot of new guys fall down that they dont have a clue about the job beyond the flight deck.
Very briefly, Ops - Flight plan monitoring, filing, slot negotiation, plogs etc. Dispatch - W&B, turn round coord, dogsbody and reciever of all blame for cock ups! Being on check in wont be much use to you apart from trying to get a job in dispatch later on.