LHR north runway approach [Archive]

Farjer

8th Oct 2006, 13:13

While runway alternation is suspended for 10 weeks during runway repairs at LHR, the constant stream of arrivals is getting rather tiresome (to say the least), since the flight path goes directly over my house (13 miles east of LHR). My question is: does the approach need to be made with pinpoint accuracy at this distance? (13 miles/20 km) Could some lateral variation be introduced either by ATC or the pilots? Would it be safe and practical? Perhaps it's a lot of hassle to do year-round, but at times like these it would help a lot of people. Feel free to belittle me if this is a stupid suggestion!

120.4

8th Oct 2006, 13:28

Farjer
The distance from LHR at which traffic turns onto the final appraoch is directly dependant on the number of aircraft which have been taken out of the holding stacks. If we have too few off then the joining range will be short and if we have too many off the joining range will be long. We prefer to operate with a long final (at least 12nm but preferably 15nm) because that gives us greater scope to use speed to catch up any space lost due to errors in vectoring, busy r/t or occasionally a slow pilot response. Minimising the loss of spacing is absolutely essential when the airport is being scheduled at 98% of its available capacity. Just half a mile lost on each gap is multiplied by the number of aircraft waiting and adds up to a huge amount of wasted fuel over a day.

Long final = efficient spacing. Unfortunately that means some people get constant traffic but at least it should be above 4000' as it passes you @ 13nm. If we had more runways, delays would be less so the requirement to be precise would not be so great and we could spread it around a bit!
.4

Farjer

8th Oct 2006, 13:56

Thanks for that. Looking forward to runway alternation again!

Piltdown Man

8th Oct 2006, 13:58

It's truly amazing how the traffic has increased over the last 30 years or so at Heathrow (and at other airports). It's also superb how aerospace manufacturers have taken measures to reduce the amount of noise generated by aircraft over that same period. But I'm also sure that your solicitors told you, when your purchased your house, that there would a considerable amount of noise from the traffic generated from the nearby airport and this would have been reflected in its valuation.

But to answer your question, what you suggest is possible but it would require an enormous increase in resources (to predict and plan where and aircraft will be and to have controller capacity to sort out the mess when it goes wrong) and a change in the way traffic is managed at LHR. Such a thing is not trivial and would take a long time to implement. So, unfortunately, you are stuck with the noise. But it also means, if you are feeling generous, that some other poor sod isn't!

PM

Farjer

8th Oct 2006, 14:08

We are renting, fortunately!

And you are right, a/c type does make a huge difference (as does a constant descent (have read an interesting thread here on that too)).

It's truly amazing how the traffic has increased over the last 30 years or so at Heathrow (and at other airports). It's also superb how aerospace manufacturers have taken measures to reduce the amount of noise generated by aircraft over that same period. But I'm also sure that your solicitors told you, when your purchased your house, that there would a considerable amount of noise from the traffic generated from the nearby airport and this would have been reflected in its valuation.

Kirk Biddlecombe

8th Oct 2006, 17:36

Out of interest, when did 09R/27L stop taking arrivals and/or when is it due to start taking them again?

747-436

8th Oct 2006, 18:13

The work around the eastern end of 27R began at the start of Sept and is due to last for about 10 weeks.

Scott Voigt

8th Oct 2006, 18:42

point5

8th Oct 2006, 18:47

27L/09R has not stopped taking inbounds! 27R has, however, stopped taking outbounds!

Dozza2k

8th Oct 2006, 18:52

whilst on topicish, I operate out of LHR but have always wondered why 09L is not used for departures ever, i.e no alternation come 3pm?
someone said concorde could use it though...

Roffa

8th Oct 2006, 19:02

Dozza,

The Cranford Agreement (http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_foi/documents/page/dft_foi_039473.pdf)

120.4

8th Oct 2006, 19:04

Becasue many older types cannot accept the strict noise restrictions for 09L departures over Cranford. By default therefore we hae to use 09R for departures, but that doesn't stop us also using it for arrivals, which is why twin arrivals on easterlies are common.
.4

Kirk Biddlecombe

8th Oct 2006, 19:29

If twin arrivals are in use e.g. 09L & 09R, does the seperation on final between the two approaching Aircraft not become an issue, or will a 'parallel' landing never happen?

AlanM

8th Oct 2006, 20:16

Kirk, parallel approaches are allowed during certain wx conditions.

However, by using left and right alternative gaps you can have 3nm radar separation as opposed to 4-7nm vortex separation.

Kirk Biddlecombe

8th Oct 2006, 20:52

Right so are the RWY's at LL really 3nm apart of each other? I knew the gap was large but I didn't think it would be sufficient for H separation.

Edit> ...by using left and right alternative gaps...- Sorry missed that point, thanks.

K.

TheOddOne

8th Oct 2006, 21:07

Yes, thanks for unearthing that nugget! Us old-timer LHR types just knew about the 'Cranford Agreement' but its origins had been lost in the mists of time. - now here's the definitive answer. Great. If you want inbound aircraft noise, try living in Waye Avenue! At least you get a new roof paid for by the airport...

TOO

point5

8th Oct 2006, 21:54

The 2 runways at Heathrow are not 3nm (h) apart of each other. If we are landing on both they are usually staggered 3nm apart on each. As already stated, in certain wx conditions (one condition being at some point during the approach one aircraft becomes visual with another), parallel approaches can be performed as was done with the 2 Concordes shortly before their retirement.

Landing on both is usually only done tactically, for example to nulify vortex issues. So a B744 could be approaching 09L with a C550 3 miles behind for 09R!

Concorde did use 09L for departure. At the time, 27L/09R was being re-surfaced and there was a slight bumb in the runway where the old and new tarmac met. This took its toll on the wheel bogies of the SSC and they requested to use 09L for departure (special treatment!)

Cheers!

120.4

8th Oct 2006, 22:07

Kirk B

Parallel landing in poor weather could be brought in now if we were to go to the trouble of satisfying the requirements for safeguaring the aircraft; doing so will deliver the maximum capacity come mixed-mode.

.4

TopBunk

9th Oct 2006, 00:32

At the time, 27L/09R was being re-surfaced and there was a slight bumb in the runway where the old and new tarmac met.

Have you got a cold?:)

HEATHROW DIRECTOR

9th Oct 2006, 10:06

Lot depends on one's attitude to aeroplanes. My wife and I plainly think differently to farjer. We're about the same distance west as he is east of Heathrow and when the airport is on easterlies we drop everything we're doing to sit in the garden with our binoculars and watch the jets overhead - sheer joy. I'm afraid we've both loved aeroplanes for well over 50 years so there's no cure. Many moons ago we lived under one of the approaches to Brize Norton when they did night VC10 training. The noise was unbelievable - nothing like the whisper of modern aircraft. Among the first words our young son uttered were "flashing lights in the sky" and "jets". 35 years later he's still a plane freak - first words his son uttered were "helicopter" and "Chinook"!

Farjer - to make life more enjoyable, buy copy of Civil Aircraft Markings and tick off the registrations as they fly over. No, of course we're not spotty anoraks... we also collect Eddie Stobart numbers which puts us on a higher plane(!)

anotherthing

9th Oct 2006, 10:31

Scott

For once it does not sound like a whine - it was a genuine question from someone who lives close to a busy airport.... there is a runway alternation method which alleviates some of the hardship (!) and this helps to keep some of the locals sweet.... though obvioulsy not all of them.

Farjer asked his question, and when given the answer - accepted it.... no whining there methinks. It's a pity more of the poeple who choose to buy or rent near a busy airport do not have the same attitude. :ok:

I used to live under the EGLL flightpath - it did not bother me, but it was noisy - there is no disputing the fact

DCS99

9th Oct 2006, 14:49

Among the first words our young son uttered were "flashing lights in the sky" and "jets".

Nice tale - made me smile!

After daddy and mummy, my son was soon saying "Airplane", "Boeing", "Airbus" and "Swissair".

Hopefully he'll be a Lawyer when he grows up. ;)

Gonzo

9th Oct 2006, 17:38

DCS99,

It's a shame to see parents allowing children to use poor English, you should have corrected 'Airplane' to 'Aeroplane'.

:E

Jerricho

9th Oct 2006, 19:05

Don't you start that crap Gonze :suspect: :p

Do you remember a certain Antipodean who nearly failed a written test at CATC for that very reason.

Gonzo

9th Oct 2006, 20:13

Didn't we all fail a written test at CATC for claiming that lightning was a characteristic of thunderstorms? :rolleyes: :}

derekl

9th Oct 2006, 23:42

Lot depends on one's attitude to aeroplanes. [etc]

Living in the same area as HEATHROW DIRECTOR, I share his enthusiasm.

I am one of that happy band who cannot hear the sound of engines in the sky without looking up.

My wife, while not an enthusiast as such, has been so conditioned by me that she can now recognise an Airbus turning off base to intercept the localiser on 09L purely from the engine sound. Bless.

Farjer

20th Oct 2006, 21:14

What a whine....

I live 9 miles from the approach end of an arrival runway and don't even notice the aircraft flying by unless I am outside and enjoying the sun... Sounds like you could use some more sound proofing and some decent windows. They just are NOT a bother.

but you don't say which airport you're near and if it has arrivals every 90 seconds from 6am (and 16 arrivals 4.30 to 6am - mostly 747s which are the worst offenders - do you have them going over your house?).

having said that, some double glazing would help!

also, the situation improved recently (wind change?) I'll probably find out when I reach the end of the thread.

Farjer

20th Oct 2006, 21:39

Lot depends on one's attitude to aeroplanes. My wife and I plainly think differently to farjer. We're about the same distance west as he is east of Heathrow and when the airport is on easterlies we drop everything we're doing to sit in the garden with our binoculars and watch the jets overhead - sheer joy. [snip nostalgic story...]

Farjer - to make life more enjoyable, buy copy of Civil Aircraft Markings and tick off the registrations as they fly over. No, of course we're not spotty anoraks... we also collect Eddie Stobart numbers which puts us on a higher plane(!)

Don't get me wrong, I've had my binoculars out on a sunny afternoon - and I do enjoy the sight. It's just the incessant (when alternation isn't happening) approaches, having to turn up the TV or put the subtitles on when a 747 goes over (from my binocular observations, these are the main culprits I think). It's just a bit boring that they go over and over and over. Or at least it was for a couple of weeks before I posted. Now things seem less monotonous and I'm not whining any more!

FlightDetent

23rd Oct 2006, 13:42

HD: So this plane fascination of yours, is it a birth deficiency or work induced trauma? For sure I have the first one. :D

Back on track, please give me your estimate: What percentage of total departures are out of 27L? And then, explicitly on DVR/DET SIDs?

Thank you, FD.
(the un-real)

Gonzo

23rd Oct 2006, 14:12

FD, at the moment if we're on westerlies (i.e. taking off towards Windsor), then all departures will be from 27L. The westerly runway alternation programme has been suspended due to work in progress affecting taxiways in the holding area for 27R.

As for how many will be DVR or DET, maybe 20%. Some routes always fly that SID (Belgium, Switzerland, southern Germany, Middle East). Some routes usually fly a DVR (Singapore, Brunei, central Germany etc), but depending on flight planning considerations might fly a BPK.

HEATHROW DIRECTOR

23rd Oct 2006, 15:04

<<HD: So this plane fascination of yours, is it a birth deficiency or work induced trauma? For sure I have the first one. >>

Problem started when I was a young kid and working in aviation all my life just made it worse. Even having been retired 4 years I can't stop watching them.... There appears to be no cure.

Flightman

23rd Oct 2006, 19:00

FlightDetent

24th Oct 2006, 07:03

Over what period do you want the stats?

In fact, any. With the runway work or without. If I read correctly the rwy alternation starts differently every monday, so I guess at least one month would do. But no statistics, just an educated guess just Gonzo provided. Thank you.

Flightman

24th Oct 2006, 10:00

In fact, any. With the runway work or without. If I read correctly the rwy alternation starts differently every monday, so I guess at least one month would do. But no statistics, just an educated guess just Gonzo provided. Thank you.

For Sept 2006 25.5% of all 27L deps were down DVR. For the same month off 27R, the figure was 28.9%. :ok:

FlightDetent

24th Oct 2006, 10:31

You're a statistic's man I see. So how many of those 27L DVR/DET departures did not turn at 1 DME ILL but steered towards Epsom as soon as 27L DER instead? :}

Flightman

24th Oct 2006, 10:53

You're a statistic's man I see. So how many of those 27L DVR/DET departures did not turn at 1 DME ILL but steered towards Epsom as soon as 27L DER instead? :}

20.5% were off track. Of that 20.5% I'd guesstimate ( to busy to get the exact figure ) 14% approx turned early. But I've been intouch with Jepps and they've found the error in the coding and the change will go in from 23rd Nov.
:ok:

anotherthing

24th Oct 2006, 12:46

Flightman

I would also like to point out that September was particularly nasty for weather... lots of A/C turning off SIDS early due to this!!

Flightman

24th Oct 2006, 14:33

Flightman

I would also like to point out that September was particularly nasty for weather... lots of A/C turning off SIDS early due to this!!

I know. :ok:

But DVR has taken a hit since June this year, and now I've informed Jepps something was amiss, they've found a problem.