Beijing Panam Mid Air Collision [Archive]

Mexican Jack

6th Oct 2006, 04:55

A couple of days ago at Beijing Panam in China there was a mid air collision between a DA40 and a DA42 while doing circuit training.

For who work for the company this comes as no surprise. Their attitude to flight safety is almost non existant and a fatal accident is just a matter of time. By some miracle this mid air collision only resulted in one student getting a broken arm. Both Aircraft made it back down in controlled flight but are both written off. Chinese ATC is shocking and one cannot count the amount of near misses there has been. If there is an accident on the air field dont expect immediate medical attention. The first accident that happened there resulted in moderate injuries to instructor and student. The tower did not nofity the emergency services but just paniced. The instructor and student managed to get out of the plane, which was upside down, and had to walk back to the flight school and called for the ambulance. The hospital where the ambulance came from was 3 minutes walk away but took over 1/2 hour to get there. About 20 minutes after it arrived the airport fire truck arrived at the scene. It was stationed in a building about 200 meters from where the accident occured.

If you are thinking of taking a postion with this company I would strongly suggest that you don't.

This company has made up its own "VFR" met minima that is below the CCARs. Dual cross country VFR flights are authorised down to 2000meters visibility in aircraft that are not IFR certified. Due to ATC restriction these flights are flown at up to 3000meters (10,000ft). ITs begs the question .... "How can you see the ground if viz is 2000m and you are at 3000m?". Answer is you cant so you just use a GPS and hope you dont get disorientated spacially.

Instructors in this company are put under extreme pressure to fly illegally due to the Chinese CAAC delaying the issue of Chinese licenses. One instructor was fired for refusing to fly for safety reasons after receiving a moderate arm injury in a fall. Others who had tried to leave when they realised what the place was really like had a lot of trouble getting their passports back. Some even had to pay money to the company to get theirs back. Some instructors have been fired for no apparent reason. One direct hire instructor was told to leave and only given two days to sort out his stuff. He was then taken to the local train station and told to make his own way home back to the United States. He had to pay for his own air ticket.

If you are an instructor looking for a job then stay well clear of this company.

Beijing Panam has been flying now for about 1-1/2 years. In that time 3 daimond aircraft have been written off. 2 DA40's and a DA42.

F900EX

6th Oct 2006, 05:45

Thanks for the info... Great to know.. A friend of mine was seriously thinking of heading east to work for that outfit.

Not surprised they have "issues" based on the location. No doubt the directors are making a neat pile of money from this operation.

catch

6th Oct 2006, 22:27

I totally agree with the above. Maitainence/Weather/Visibilty/Engine troubles/Communtication errors/Complete lack of saftey were just a few of the problems to be put up with.
An accident like that was inevidable when flying in the circuit downwind in viz less than 5 km, guessing where the other a/c were in the circuit.(without actually sighting it)
Completeley relying on the g1000, i too would think again before accepting such an offer.

yan_i

7th Oct 2006, 00:18

hello,

it seems scary :\ but of course they have to learn first what it means to do some flying and they are under the pressure of producing pilots like a factory.
I heard that ther is another school operating in China, called IATA, anybody with informations about that one. Hopefully, the conditions are better.:rolleyes:

Flytoo

pilot-320

7th Oct 2006, 00:26

This is just unacceptable!

tommorow we will have to face these people up in the air!! critisism like that is good to be made.
Hopefuly others will learn from this example.:\

JSF1

7th Oct 2006, 14:22

Mexican Jack,
I would suggest you make sure your facts are straight before slagging companies off.
You obviously know very little about the mid-air collision, the instructor who was fired for "refusing to fly after moderate arm injuries" (total BS), or the basics of spelling.

pilot-320

7th Oct 2006, 14:58

JSF please mate calm down!! if u think that mexican jack was wrong why dont u tell us the truth and description of what really happened?
people start shouting only when they are not right and they are trying to cover situations:\

JSF1

7th Oct 2006, 16:02

oh...was i shouting? i didnt realise.

pilot-320

7th Oct 2006, 16:31

My friend i had and still have no intentions of creating an argument. i would just liketo learn the truth. If u think smth is not right or never happened write down what exactly happened than calling someones opinios B...IT:mad:

Dont take me wrongly!! and to be honest i know nothing about the whole story but im doing my research to see what happened!

THANK YOU!!

VIC:)

Dirty D

8th Oct 2006, 03:46

I know the istructor who was fired with the arm injury. I was there. He did have an arm injury however I'm not sure his refusal to fly with the injury was the reason for him being fired. This individual was pretty outspoken about issues regarding safety. Not only in the air, but for us foreigners living there. I can't be sure of his motivations, but he seemed to feel it his duty to point out all the screw ups of the company. He made a lot of good points whether he was right or wrong in his motives. Over a period of time certain directors started getting uncomfortable with this.
In China, saving face is more important than doing things right.
I can't be sure. But I beleive this was the reason for his termination.
Unfortunatly the attitude of some of the management there is hazardous. I can say from experience there that the only reason why there hasnt been more accidents is because the aircraft spend most of the time sitting on the ground.
Lets spend loads of money buying a sate of the art fleet and then ignore safety considerations like first aid kits in the aircraft. I'm not sure if they have them now. But they'v been "in the mail" for the last 2 years. From what I understand its not a regulation in China. This is likely because the regs are copied from the FAA. In the USA, if you have an acident in 90% of the country, you can at least be sure someone knows where you are and some sort of help is on the way. This is not the case in China. If you crash on a x- country and sustain injuries that require treatment....you are dead. Not that a first aid kit will make much difference, but its the thought that counts.
This guy who got fired along with many others have continuosly reminded management of serious safety issues that need to be fixed. By the way they have responded time and time again, it is obvious that safety is very low on their priority list.
This is tragically funny as Pan Am's motto is Safety, Quality, Efficiency and Harmony.
I'm not just some disgruntled employee. I genuinly hope they can get their act together. I still have some great friends over there and the last thing I want is to hear about one of them getting killed.

spacemanspiff8

8th Oct 2006, 06:18

As a current employee of Beijing Panam i take offense to the comments made by mexicanjack. Beijing Panam IS a safe operation. Lets put things into perspective here; I have worked extensively flying charters in the canadian north and the pressures i encountered there to fly at all costs were far greater than anything i have experienced in china, ie, flying with the ASI inop, VFR flights through the mountains with 500' ceilings, i was even told by the chief pilot when the engine stopped 3 times during the idle check, "well youre not going to be flying around at idle power are you?!" the bottom line is, be it in china or anywhere else in the world, as the pilot, the final descision on wether or no to fly rests solely on YOUR shoulders.
I have never encountered a situation where i was pressured to fly an unsafe aircraft. our fleet is MASSIVE, if something is wrong with an aircraft, we simply take another one and send maintenance to work (slowly i will admit, but work none the less). i dont know a single pilot in this outfit who would knowingly take an unsafe aircraft up for flight training, it simply does not happen.
General aviation is just getting spooled up in china, Beijing Panam is forging the way for this expansion. our general manager, Howard Davenport, a wily texan with a logbook as thick as my...well....its pretty thick, is commited to the safe operation of this company, i have not worked with a finer man in aviation. we do experience pressures from management (none of whom are pilots) to get things done, we are a business after all, but howard would not stand for any unsafe practices and streeses that to all of the employees. the chinese are learning what can and cannot be done, but it is a process, and neither of the two accidents so far were a result of any pressure to fly by chinese management.
although i cannot comment on the first accident as i was not employed when it happened, apparently the midair collision was a result of the student pilot in the DA40 flying a very tight circuit with 2 DA42s in the pattern at night. the DA42 not involved with the collision apparently requested that ATC ask the DA40 to fly a wider circuit, ATC complied but recieved no reply from the student after 3 attempts. ATC then contacted the other DA42 who was infront of both aircraft and just about to turn base of the situation, that is when the collision happened. the 2 aircraft collided at approximately a 45 degree angle, the prop of the da40 taking out the 42s rudder and one of the main gear, in the process wrecking its own prop and causing the engine to cease functioning. the instructor in the 42, a great guy and friend of mine, showed exceptional skill in landing a near uncontrollable aircraft on the grass next to the runway, thus allowing the other aircraft in the pattern and training areas the ability to land as this base only has one runway. it is because of his abilities that both he and his student were able to walk away without a scratch, even though the aircraft was written off. the student in the 40, a newly minted commercial pilot, broke his arm in the impact, yet still managed to land a heavily damaged aircraft on a road at night, a feat that demands respect even from seasoned pilots, and is a testament to the level of training the students recieve within this company. true, this aircraft was written off as well, but the student walked away wich is all that matters. both pilots should be commended for the skill that they demonstarted in this situation and it is a result of this skill that this accident did not have a far more trajic outcome. this is not the official story, but what has been filtered down to us from the other pilots at this particular training base.
no matter where you are in the world there will be accidents when doing flight training, one only has to log onto the NTSB or TC website to find a long list of them, to insinuate that beijing panam and the pilots who work there are unsafe is insulting both to me and all the other employees of this company as we all strive to make our operation the safest it can be. although i will agree with mexicanjacks assesment of chinese ATC and accident response, i feel that his acusations towards myself and the company i work for are tottaly unwarrented.

Mexican Jack

8th Oct 2006, 07:26

[quote=JSF1;2895012]Mexican Jack,
I would suggest you make sure your facts are straight before slagging companies off.
You obviously know very little about the mid-air collision, the instructor who was fired for "refusing to fly after moderate arm injuries" (total BS), or the basics of spelling.[/quote

I will reply to what you say.

My facts are straight. Everything mentioned in my statement I made I witnessed first hand. I was in dispatch the morning the instructor was fired. The instructor is still recieving medical treatment for the arm injury that happened in February.

I was at the school the morning of the first accident and was with the injured instructor while waiting for the ambulance to turn up.

As far as not knowing anything about the mid air collision......

It happened in Binzhou. The student in the DA40 was from class two doing night solo. He was on final and the DA42 was on base. The DA40 did not respond to calls from the Fijian controller ............ So? I know nothing huh.

Like I said my facts are straight!

spacemanspiff8

8th Oct 2006, 07:58

mexicanjack your facts are NOT straight, the collision happened in Baotou, not binzhou, maybe if you try a little harder you can stick your other foot in your mouth.

JSF1

8th Oct 2006, 10:38

FlyingForFun

8th Oct 2006, 11:46

As an impartial observer, with no knowledge of the company or its procedures, and no particular interest, I have to say that JSF's rebuttal of Mexican Jack's "facts" would be far more convincing if he were able to correct the "facts" rather than simply state that they are wrong.

FFF
----------------

JSF1

8th Oct 2006, 13:17

As the investigation hasn't even begun, I am not able to comment on the details of the accident. All I am saying is don't talk crap about something you know nothing about? Easy - right?!

B2N2

8th Oct 2006, 13:31

If all true, very serious.
Anybody have a link to a reliable news source to confirm?

Dirty D

8th Oct 2006, 15:58

Hi Spaceman

I should clarify a little. First off when I mentioned that I though that SOME management have hazardous attitudes I was refering to the non pilot Chinese management along with Mr. Ding. "you fly today???" Um no Mr. Ding the visibility is 500M. hehe

I agree with you about Howard. He is great. Unfortunatly he is a foreigner and from my experience there it doesnt matter what your position is, the Chinese management will do things without consultation with ANY foreigner.

As far as your story about flying in the Canadian north goes. Yes your are right, there are a lot more dangerous operation to fly for. The difference here is that its a training environment. I truly beleive that there are countless holes in the training at PanAm. This is not the instructors fault or the students. Its difficult to really motivate students when they are given 3rd 4th and 5th chances. Has any student been washed out yet? In a company with 300+ students, theres bound to be some duds. I'm glad i'm not the instructor having management saying "oh just send him solo to Taiyuan. no problem" This actually happened by the way. with a students whos idea of action after a simulated engine failure after takeoff was to go around.

When I was doing basic instruction with my first students, we flew in visibility so bad you couldnt see the ground at 4000 feet. and this was wtih the visibility reported at 5k at ZBSJ. Do you really think they saw the point to doing a lookout before turning or maintaining a constant lookout when in the circuit? No. Because they were thinking, whats the point, i cant see anything anyway. and so they got used to staring at the G1000. But of course they were all allowed to continue. No that same class of students is partially in Batou a place that from what I understand so far has had good weather.

So yes weather was not a factor in the accident. But honestly, I've instructed in REALLY busy environments before. You know like 10 in the circuit. If a student cant see other airplanes at night when the strobes are going and can't respond when ATC asks them to do something other then the standard extend donwind or turn base now.....this is the problem. Very difficult to over come in Pan Am's case I know. But there is a reason for every incident. to call it just an accident and everyone did their job great is not being honest. It will happen again.

Hey spaceman

How long have you been at PanAm. Just wondering. I'm not trying to argue or anything. I just don't want to see people dead. It can be prevented. But if the Pan Am I know is still the way it is, I'm afraid nothing meaningful will be done.

pilot-320

8th Oct 2006, 16:44

JSF why are u so frustrated? tell us what had really happened!! its not good though disclosing someone's identity as many times u might be wrong! and even if he is the injured instructor he has every right to express his opinions!
please calm down as the only thing u are doing is destroying this thread!

I truly believe that as u can disclose someone elses data u should tell us who u are and then us the readers will make our decisions of who is right.

ACCIDENTS HAPPEN EVERYDAY!! minor though... this was major during training and doesnt mean that it has something to do with the quality of the school! it could have been an atc problem or a pilot's mistake!

dont take me wrongly im not a moderator or something ! i just want to know what happened !!
:)

JSF1

8th Oct 2006, 18:00

Whatever dude, Im too lazy to continue arguing on the net like harry potter. everything you want to know is on this thread. Believe the current employee's or a disgruntled ex-employee. I dont care

pilot-320

8th Oct 2006, 18:18

APOLOGIES MATE!!

IT SEEMS THAT YOU ARE VERY ANGRY !!

there is no point me continuing the discussion!!

i am very calm and as i have nothing to do with incident i better leave it here!

i have read the whole thread but still wondering as it looks like a war between some people! try to understand my point! i dont know mexicanjack or you!! i have nothing against the school and i mentioned it. it happens to fly though and things like this trigger ur curiosity about things for precautionary purposes as i dont want smth like that to happen while im flying!
try to cooperate and listen!!
what makes u think that i am against you? or against the school? im many many miles far away !

thanks and i wont bother you again!

dartagnan

8th Oct 2006, 20:28

well, this company has called me 5-6 months ago to work for them. I could not believ what they offered me. Free chines license, free trip, free pick up, free medicals, free training on their aircraft, free housing, and 2000$ a month (and no tax to pay)....Unbelievable!!! the chinese dream!

I did a research on a canadian website about panam in china, and people sound very unhappy to work there.

they work 15 hours/day for less 2000$a month,they don't fly a lot due to military restriction, and there is so much pollution, that you don't even see your propeller.

the water is contaminated and if you work there, you risk to not pass you next medical exam.etc, ok,
this is some exemples...and they mentioned about FIs leaving the school during the night right after they got their salary.

I am not at all surprised by what this mexicanjack says and I think the chinese government will probably cover the investigation IF there is one.

Would you trust or believe what they say anyway?I let you remember the chines government kills their citizen because they are part of a peaceful religious group and they have no respect about human right. I do not understand why so many freaking business move there ( for money of course).

What a guilty pilot risks there? gaz chamber, decapitation, hand cut, jail for life or just tortures for a week end?
do yourself a favor, stay away from China!

mexicanjack, I hope you are not in china...even if you say the truth around you, you could be in trouble.People usually disapear in china.they can sell your organs to an hospital and you will weak up with no tongue;)...or no penis:{

pilot-320

8th Oct 2006, 20:39

JESUS CHRIST!!!!

Not the best comments but if they are true i can imagine how hard could be for a European to acclimatize down there. Many people are talking about the progress that China has made aviationwise and i beleive this is something marvelous as there will be more jobs available.
Now i just hope they will rethink and change some attitudes ... i believe with some improvement they can only go forward!! Huge airlines down there exist pilots needed so why not!!

About me though after what i have read here i doubt it if i go there! ok i can say i can fly but everyone makes mistakes and i dont want to lose my hands!!:=

Mexican Jack

9th Oct 2006, 07:16

Nope, you are completely WRONG, about everything. THere is no point in commenting about the instructor ,as it is obviously you, rockspider.

And mate, please...you really dont know anything about the mid-air. Your account of the injuries are wrong, the location (binzhou - sorry mate, wrong again), and the circuit position where it occured. all wrong.
Nice one champ.

Firstly I would like to say I am not the instructor who was fired. He was from New Zealand.

Secondly, If what I have have said is all wrong as you have said then why is it that an account from an employee of Panam is the same apart from the location?

As far as calling me a rockspider goes ...... Atacking me personally is just a manifestatrion of your frustration from working for such a company. That is a common thing in that company. If you cant come up with a good reason just blame someone. Management would be proud of you.:D

EX-FED

9th Oct 2006, 13:23

Enough is enough. I have to come to the defense of my instructors here at Beijing PanAm. After showing these ridiculous comments from the "Cheap Seats", the President asked me to respond.

First, the instructor who was fired refused to fly with a student in the DA-40 because he "hurt his arm." However, he eagerly accepted the opportunity to fly in the DA-42; arm suddenly got well....a miracle perhaps? As for the first accident, I'd like Mexican Jack to describe "How" that accident happened. Had this occured in the U.S., I would have sought a revocation on the instructor's certificate. He eagerly talks about the lack of emergency support, but fails to mention the cause of the accident. Let's here about that one.

Secondly, I have never fired an instructor for emphasizing safety related issues. I am a retired FAA Operations Inspector, and safety is my FIRST priority. I've investigated over 30 accidents, including 2 mid-airs in my career. I'm 50 years old and feel like a fool writing a thread on this board, but these comments require some correction. You want a valid, reputable source...you've got it.

Thirdly, the accident happened in Bautou. The DA-40 hit the DA-42 on the base leg, not on final. I assisted in this investigation, so you are hearing it "from the horses mouth." The DA-40 was inside the other traffic on the downwind. ATC instructed the pilot to follow the DA-42. The pilot replied, "roger." The DA-40 never changed his altitude or course, and continued straight ahead. The DA-42 had just turned base, and ATC asked him if he saw the DA-40. The answer was no. Suddenly, the 40 appeared at his 2 O'Clock, but it was too late.

I really shouldn't be waisting my time writing comments on a message board. But, when my instructors are in the right, I will come to their defense at all costs. Maybe if Mexican Jack would have stuck around a little longer with this terrible company, he would be reaping some of the rewards I have now offered to my top instructors:

1. $2000.00 CASH bonus for completion of the first contract.
2. $1000.00 CASH bonus for each instructor referral that is hired.
3. $10.00 per hour bonus for each hour flown over 70 hours per month.
4. 2 days off with pay and a 200RMB gift certificate for superior evaluations.
5. FO program in 737 freight operations for company recommended instructors who complete 2 years with the company which includes a Type Rating.
6. Senior Instructor positions with a starting salary of $2200.00 per month.

The company has also announced the purchase of 3 Avanti aircraft for future 135 operations.

Now, nobody is saying that China does not have it's problems. If you come here, you have to work around these problems. ATC, Military restrictions, and weather are some of the main problems we face. However, they are getting better, but the "mother is still in labor pains," and the baby is about to be born.

Beijing PanAm is not for everyone. The instructors I have here are the finest in the world. They come from over 22 different countries to lend their expertise to help PanAm accomplish it's mission.

Mexican Jack, I am not here to change your mind about Beijing PanAm; you have clearly made your point. But you really shouldn't express your opinions on second or third hand information. It makes you look like a fool.

Howard Davenport
General Manager / Director of Flight Operations
Beijing PanAm International Aviation Academy

citationXtreme

9th Oct 2006, 15:11

First and foremost, let's get the facts correct! The instructor was fired not because of his refusal to fly! He was supposed to fly with his student on the DA40 that day but he told the company that he can't do so because he hurt his hand. That evening he went flying on the DA42 with his fellow instructor. I would have fired him myself!

About the flying condition here in China? Yes, we do not have the best weather, we do not have the best ATC and airspace granted to us is very much limited by the military for obvious reason but Pan Am is not that bad. We are given decent accomodation :ok: our taxes are paid for, and don't go believing about instructors working extremely long hours! In fact, there are quite a handful who practically beat the system by not showing up for work because the weather is bad. If the company so demand that you show up to the academy regardless of whether you are flying or not, (so that you can help the students with the ground studies), is that being UNREASONABLE? afterall, you are collecting USD2000 every month!

About instructor being fired for no apparent reason! Anybody in the right frame of mind would know that this is so untrue. Some instructors are fired because they failed the CAAC exam and the retake as well! I think that is absolutely justifiable! Some are fired for gross misconduct in public places (e.g. fighting in pubs)! Some are fired for unprofessional behavior (e.g. not showing up for lessons that they supposed to be presenting and having the students sat there not having a single clue of what is happening!). Frankly, so far, all the people who were fired are people that I would have personally fired too if I were to be put in the management position.

As for paying a fine if you are leaving and the school holding your passports? We have contracts that we have read, understood and signed on the dotted lines. If you break the contract, shouldn't you have the decency to honour what you have agreed upon? I have known of some decent and fine young man who have the decency to tell the company that they do not see much prospect here and decided to leave and is willing to pay the one month penalty or giving the company ample notification. I have seen our management responded by letting the person go without the fine or any further notification. I guess it speaks volume about people like that and the company too!

As for the accident in Baotou, instead of CRITICIZING the academy and hoping to HANG US OUT TO DRY! If you have even a grain of decency in yourself Mr Mexicano, GIVE US OUR DUE CREDITS! We often heard about midair collision and more often than not, it always ended with some serious casualty or fatality. The student may have make mistakes (anyone of you aviators dare claimed you have never?) for the simple fact that he is a STUDENT! What the student did was commendable, he did not break under stress, he was competent enough to carry out the emergency procedures and put an almost uncontrollable aircraft down and not hurt anyone on the ground or destroying any properties. To me, that takes lots of balls and courage! The instructor handling of the collision was even commended by CAAC. Would you have LIVE TO TELL THIS STORY Mr Mexicano? I beg to differ! I guess that is also the reason you are no longer with the academy! The DA42 lost its rudder and right landing gear and the instructor managed to control the aircraft using differential thrust and put the aircraft on the ground. Yes, we lost both aircrafts, but we are competent to save what matters most... our LIVES!

So Mr Mexicano, with all due respect, I fully understand the resentment you have towards the academy... you are afterall, just human. But until you changed your perspective and way of looking at the world (the world REALLY DO NOT owed you a living!), you will not last long anywhere else either. Instead of spending all your times and energy attacking our academy, why not spending it on something more worthwhiles like improving yourself first? It is true, Pan Am is not perfect, but it is sad to see you having such narrow view of the aviation world. There is no one single school that is perfect! but we will get there eventually! Trust me, you will see us at the top and hopefully one day you have the gracefullness to tell others that you were once part of this excellent training institution! I wished you all the best in your aviation career. No hard feelings eh? I feel I have the responsibility to protect my institution!:O

PicMas

10th Oct 2006, 09:00

It seems the primary reason for not considering Pan Am Beijing is your potential colleagues.
Would you want to work with these people?

Dirty D

10th Oct 2006, 17:28

Hi Howard

Wow. I didn't realise that you had brought in these new perks. Good for you! It's about time someone did something to try and motivate instructors to stay. By the sounds of recent posts, it sounds like the school is improving a lot.

I have to admitt when I think back on my time in China I can't help but stir up a lot of anger. Unfortunatly I came when during the reign of the previous management team. I'm sure you've heard all about it. But I also remember a lot of good times I had with great friends.

So when I hear news of an accident like this, I can't help but fear for my friends over there. And feel anger thinking it could have been prevented. I apologise if my initial reactions were wrong. I don't know how you and Pat do it. Being left to clean up the mess that others made. That includes everything but I'm refering to moral. Unfortunatly I think all the hostile negative reaction is a left over from earlier days. When all the reason for us to stay there seemed like either a lie or a distant truth being promised in a week or 2 but never coming. I could go on all day about the negatives I experienced. But I guess they don't apply anymore.

Congrats to the instructor for his handling of the accident. I would have soiled myself. (partially due to the intensity of the situation and partially due to my uncontrollable bowel while in China).

I'm going to stop posting about China and Pan Am as my first hand experience about China and Pan Am is stale.

To all those still in China. Congratulations on all your achievments as a company. To those thinking about going. Do your homework.

EX-FED

10th Oct 2006, 21:18

DW,

Good to hear from you. I heard you got a good job in a Piaggio or something of that nature.

Yes, I'm still "carrying my cross" over here in China. Things ARE looking up and getting better for the company and GA as a whole. There are still battles to be fought and negotiations to be made, but the company is stronger than ever and there has never been more contract renewals in the history of PanAm.....even with the somewhat limited amount of flight time.

The Bautou Base is very active. Considerably more flight time, cleaner environment, better weather and more condusive to safe and efficient flight operations. It still has some military restrictons on some activity, but nothing like Shijiaszhuang. 2 instructors who had given notice rescinded their notice and are staying on.

I don't take all the credit for these changes. It has taken understanding and cooperation from the foreign and Chinese side to get these things done. I think everyone is pleased with the results so far.

I have no problem with someone making a derogatory comment about PanAm; that is anyone's right. But don't post a thread regarding an incident if you don't have the facts straight. Broken bones, wrong locations, location of impact.....all wrong. Firing of employees? I think you know me better than what was described in that post.

As for recruitment, anyone who is interviewed is told EXACTLY what to expect over here. No stone is left unturned. Honesty is the best measure.

Well, It's 5:15 A.M and I'm getting ready for day 4 of the meetings with the CAAC. Good luck, DW, and give me a shout sometime.

Howard

Patrick Murphy

11th Oct 2006, 01:27

Just to correct one misimpression stated in the thread above:
the mid-air occurred in vis above 9km which is quite good as we know it in China. Visibility for this accident was not a factor.
As to some ridiculous comments about people disappearing in China and losing organs and such, I just just say that is not the China I have experienced over the past 15 months. Though we know about the human rights situation here, and certainly life could be harder for a native, the reality of life here is quite pleasant IF you can accept the changes from your home including the environment such as air pollution.
Finally, I am very proud of the fact that the company now puts as complete a picture in front of prospective flight instructors as is possible. We say straightforward not to expect a lot of flight time for instance. And now that the school has a history there are comments out there in cyberspace about the school both good and bad. Instructors wanting to come should do their homework. And if they are still undecided, they should visit China and the school firsthand BEFORE making the decision to become an employee.
Pat Murphy

B2N2

11th Oct 2006, 12:09

Somewhat off topic, but I need to correct you here,

As to some ridiculous comments about people disappearing in China and losing organs and such

http://www.hrw.org/reports/1994/china1/china_948.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/5388464.stm

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/rm/2001/3792.htm

http://www.american.edu/TED/prisonorgans.htm

http://shr.aaas.org/aaashran/alert.php?a_id=87

archangel7

12th Oct 2006, 01:34

B2N2 you obviously didn’t do your research...USA has a much greater crime rate then China

Where does it say in those articles "Flight Instructor abducted for organs?"

There are rape and abduction cases in the USA, Canada etc all the time. And “apparently” that the African Americans are rapists! well THAT most of them are rapists, but the way reporters make it out to be is that all BLACKS are thieves, murderers, rapists etc...The odds of you getting raped by African Americans and posted nude and explicit pictures of you all over the internet... are MUCH greater then a poor innocent instructor getting abducted for his organs in China..... Or even, let me say... that the odds of you getting killed in a car crash is 100times greater then getting abducted for your penis or internal organs in China.....If you are so paranoid of your saftey, then why do you drive? Why do you live in the USA? why do you fly?

B2N2, Why dont you...

POST an article on missing persons in the USA

POST article on rape cases in the USA

POST an article on murder cases in the USA

POST an article on robbery cases in the USA

POST an article on shooting cases in the USA including SCHOOL SHOOTINGS, COLLEGE SHGOOTINGS, NIGHT CLUB SHOOTING gang related or not ETC

POST an article on fatal car crashes in the USA including cases where a drunk driver was involved.

Read up on the statistics.. You have a higher chance of getting killed walking your doggy in the park or crossing the street then living in China...Sitting in your office drinking a cup of coffee can kill you! ... Did you forget about the aeroplanes thats crashed into the world trade towers? I dont think that sort of crap happens in China mate.

At the moment China is a MUCH MUCHH safer place then THE USA...

B2N2, you are more likely to be killed by a terror act then to be abducted in China for your organs

archangel7

12th Oct 2006, 02:46

Dirty D

Can you please explain to me what a "hazardous attitude" is?

Mate, from reading your posts... You make it out that no other flying company has had an accident or incident... Mid air collisions happen all time and yes they can be prevented but mate., your making it out that PaNam is the only flying oraganisation that needs improving.... But, these things happen all the time in GA in Australia, USA, Canada etc and there has been a lot of childish finger-pointing at the company.

For starters there is not much the company can do about the weather, the pollution, ATC etc and they have to put up with a lot and are trained to deal with what they have! I have applied for the job and they have said to me countless number of times of what to expect and yes Mr. Davenport does give a realistic picture of the conditions, and they encourage all potential employees of what to expect and what you’re up against before going up there! Negativity is a part of the package and yes the benefits are great but you need to be able to withstand the conditions. They also made it clear to me that things are very different in the company then it was a year ago....

I personally am not qualified to make any statements on the company but as a potential employee with the company I can say this... Considering all the negativity brought out on the company, your arguments aren’t persuasive enough and not enough evidence to back it up... so I ask you people... Why all the negativity? I still have not changed my mind... think about it, your flying in China and you are helping GA grow and making history in China. Its adventuress and at least you can look back one day and say WOW! I flew in China!... Most of you complaining about the company obviously aren’t open minded enough and being open-minded is fundamental to a professional.

Patrick Murphy

12th Oct 2006, 02:53

I would be one of the first to note that the human rights record for China regarding Chinese citizens is far from noteworthy.

However, I am aware of no foreign pilots in jail in China. And I must note that the organ transplants all related to executed prisoners.

Despite its domestic human rights record, China does recognize the importance of the foreigners for its future growth.

As I stated above, my own PERSONAL experience in China does not include any unusual fear for my own safety. In fact, as someone else above has stated, I actually feel safer here in most places than I felt in my own state of Florida.

Patrick Murphy

Mexican Jack

12th Oct 2006, 07:16

As for the first accident, I'd like Mexican Jack to describe "How" that accident happened. Had this occured in the U.S., I would have sought a revocation on the instructor's certificate. He eagerly talks about the lack of emergency support, but fails to mention the cause of the accident. Let's here about that one.

Howard Davenport
General Manager / Director of Flight Operations
Beijing PanAm International Aviation Academy[/quote]

Firstly I do not understand why you feel you need t come to the defense of you instructors. No personal comments have been made about the instructor staff at Beijing. The only name calling and personal attacks have been from Beijing Panam employees towards me.

I will take the time to tell you about the first accident at Beijing Panam as for some strange reason you seem to think I am trying to hide something by not mentioning how it happened.

The chief flying instructor was flying with a student when the wind increased dramatically with gusts exceeding 70 knots. This was unexpected because this wind was not forecast on any METAR issued by ZBSJ control tower. With the wind came large clouds of dust and the visibility reduced to almost zero.

Although the wind was not forecast on the ZBSJ METAR it was forecast by the air force, the local TV stations, radio stations and other airports.
Due to the language barrier none foreign instructors were aware of the forecast wind and were not informed by any Chinese staff who could speak English.

In extremely strong winds the Chief flying instructor was ordered to land by the control tower and despite the wind strength a safe landing was made. While taxying back to the flight school a very large gust of wind caused the aircraft to flip over. The aircraft landed upside down smashing the canopy.

The tower immediately started issuing METARs to show an increase in wind prior to the accident occurring. However the issue times of these METARs was after the accident occurred and the controllers were trying to cover their rear ends. While this was going on The Chinese staff at dispatch then tried to hide the current METAR that was issued prior to the accident and had no wind warning on it because they didn’t want the controllers to get in trouble. A foreign instructor was able to recover the METAR.

A number of Chinese staff, some of whom were not even part of the flight department, had already started writing reports blaming the foreign instructors and the chief flying instructor for the accident.

In this particular case the blame was always going to be laid at the feet of the chief flying instructor due to the politics between the Control Tower and Panam.

If the outcome of an investigation cast blame on the controllers then the controllers would lose face and a large portion of their pay. The relationship between Panam and the control tower would be extremely difficult and could have restricted Panam’s operation.

I find it difficult to understand you would revoke the chief flying instructor’s instructor rating due to this accident. Based on the issued METAR information prior to the flight there was no indication that wind would become a problem.

As you were not there when the accident happened, yet your opinion is that you would have revoked their instructor rating I can only assume that what you have been told about the accident how it occurred is incorrect.

Dirty D

12th Oct 2006, 09:37

Archangel

I said I would stop posting. But I feel I should clarify a few things first.

The reason I first started posting was to counter all the comments made by experts who had never been to China or Pan Am. I don't know about you in particular, but from what I gather from your posts, I could guess that you havent been to China and I can be very sure you havent been to Pan Am.

I was there for 1 year. During that time I experienced a lot of things that an instructor from Australia, USA or Canada could never imagine. Good and bad.

I apologize if any of my previous posts came across as "childish finger pointing". That was not my intention.

As for the hazerdous attitude of the (non-pilot Chinese) management. A detailed explanation would be very time consuming and in the end it would only be my opinion. I have been back in my home country for 4 months now so some things may have changed. But in my "limited" experience, attitudes rarely change and when they do, it takes a long time.

As far as the collision goes. I don't know where you are from. But in my country, Mid Air collisions DO NOT happen all the time. They are a rare tragedy that usually end in fatalities. The "negative" response you have witnessed on this forum is due to frustration from the feeling that it could have been prevented. I can't comment on the details of the accident as I was not in China at the time. But unfortunatly the news did not surprise me. Nor did it surprise many others.

From the beginning Pan Am has been struggling to get going. I beleive that a major reason for this is because the decision was made to invest in Shijiazhuang as the main base. This decision was made by the non-pilot chinese management. A year ago this month my Father visited me in Shijiazhuang and I think he summed it up pretty well. He said "whoever started this school made a FATAL mistake by choosing this location."

This fact could be seen by all of the instructors almost 2 years ago. Only recently have some of the non-pilot chinese management admitted that Shijiazhuang was a mistake. I beleive that the poor training environment in Shijiazhuang (at least in the early days) has made the company vulnerable to accidents. This is to no fault of the instructors, students or anyone in the flight department. It is because of major mistakes made in the early days of the company that were ignored for far too long.

But hey. Now they have 2 more bases. An experienced American management team in place. Things will improve if the Chinese allow them to. This is the issue that will take some more time.

This is all just my opinion though.

As far as instructor safety in China. As long as you don't plan on preaching against communism, i'm pretty sure you'll be safe from organ thiefs. I never felt in danger of being attacked there. I did feel in danger on the roads however as they are very crazy. It also didnt sit easy knowing that if I were to sustain a major injury or get very sick, the local hospitals were far less capable than anything in USA, Canada, or Australia, And there is no MEDEVAC service in China either.

So Archangel. I'm not trying to pursuade you to not go to Pan Am. Just trying to provide information. I think I've written just about enough already. No more explaining will do. Go and see for yourself if you're not satisfied. Visit before making the commitment. Do what you have to do.

As far as Mexican Jacks latest comments. I was not there when the first accident happened. However, the reaction he describes from ATC corresponds with my own experiences with ATC at Shijiazhuang. But hey, Pan Am is now employing their own ATC at other bases....soo. So of course there are positive things to look at. But please, don't blind yourself by focusing on the positive and ignoring the negative. That mistake has already been made.

Diamond Girl

12th Oct 2006, 09:51

As a new member to this network and looking around the threads, I found interest in the mid-air with PanAm, since I am considering going to work for this company.

I would like to keep my posting as professional as possible, and not fall into the corruption and finger pointing that is going on in this particular thread. Aviation is for professionals, and I would like to maintain my professionalism.

However, I do have some concerns over the 1st accident that was mentioned regarding PanAm. I am somewhat familiar with the FAR's and aeronautical decision making. I am not versed at all in the Chinese Regulations, but I would gamble to assume they are near those of the FAA.

My first concern is the regulatory requirement for acting as pilot in command. The FAR's clearly state that "The pilot in command is directly responsible for, and is the final authority to the operation of an aircraft." The FAR's further state that "In an emergency a pilot may deviate from any rule of this part..." It appears to me that the pilot in command, who I assume at that time was the Chief Instructor, did not take command of the aircraft and exercise his authority under the regulations. He could have refused to accept that clearance based on the unsafe conditions.

My second concern is if the wind was actually gusting to 70 knots, why would you turn an airplane downwind and taxi in those conditions? This is disturbing to me.

As for the revocation, I don't know what the FAA rules are for sanctions or enforcement. Luckily, I have never had to face them except on a practical test. But it would appear to me that the instructor would have been at fault in this particular incident the way it was described above. True, the instructor did not have that information before the flight was dispatched, but it did become apparent there was a problem prior to landing, and the instructor should have exercised his pilot in command authority and refused the landing clearance. He certainly should not have taxied as described above with those wind conditions.

One more thing to add. I personally don't think a mid-air collision post is the place to be discussing executions and organ selling. That is totally inappropriate for this thread.

I'm sure my post will be scrutinized severely, and inappropriate and unprofessional comments will flow. I, like everyone else, has an opinion, and I hope my opinion is treated with respect.

It seems PanAm is not such a bad place. I appreciate the comments from the General Manager defending his instructors. Even with the problems they are facing, it would be nice to work for someone who really cares about his employees. That, in itself, is a rare commodity in general aviation.

My resume will be forwarded immediately.

B2N2

12th Oct 2006, 11:38

Somewhat off topic, but I need to correct you here

Did I ever suggest that flight instructors would be at risk?
I don't think so, don't be ridiculous.
That was merely a comment on the previous poster.
So cool it Archangel 7.

EX-FED

12th Oct 2006, 14:20

Jack,

You are absolutely correct in your previous thread. I was NOT present when that accident occured, nor was I present for any of the other 30 or so that I investigated in the U.S. But you go through several months of training and use your experience to make a determination as to the cause of the accident. You gather all the information and put the puzzle together to come up with a conclusion.

All of the factors you mentioned are credible pieces of information that an accident investigator would look at. But, let's look at "why" this accident happened. This accident did not happen in flight or landing; it happened while taxiing downwind with 70 Kt. wind gusts. This was not the fault of ATC, Dispatchers or Mr. Ding. The Pilot in Command MADE THE DECISION to taxi that aircraft downwind. The Pilot in Command MADE THE DECISION to land that aircraft. This was not Chinese Management's fault.

As for your comments regarding defending my instructors. It was you, Jack, that posted the first post on this thread; not my instructors. It was you, Jack, that posted erroneous information regarding the mid-air collision in an attempt to "save the world" from PanAm.

This is my final post regarding this issue. I'll leave it to the readers to sort out who is right and who is wrong; who is sincere and who is attacking without provocation. Whoever you truly are, I hope that there is something positive you can take from your experience with PanAm and China.

Regards and Safe Flying to all.

Howard

archangel7

13th Oct 2006, 00:44

B2N2 You have confused me:confused:

You tried to correct him but you where wrong.

The message that i got from your post is that that China is not a safe place.

Who else agrees with me?

Mexican Jack

14th Oct 2006, 06:57

QUOTE FROM DAIMOND GIRL "I would like to keep my posting as professional as possible, and not fall into the corruption and finger pointing that is going on in this particular thread. Aviation is for professionals, and I would like to maintain my professionalism.

However, I do have some concerns over the 1st accident that was mentioned regarding PanAm. I am somewhat familiar with the FAR's and aeronautical decision making. I am not versed at all in the Chinese Regulations, but I would gamble to assume they are near those of the FAA.

My first concern is the regulatory requirement for acting as pilot in command. The FAR's clearly state that "The pilot in command is directly responsible for, and is the final authority to the operation of an aircraft." The FAR's further state that "In an emergency a pilot may deviate from any rule of this part..." It appears to me that the pilot in command, who I assume at that time was the Chief Instructor, did not take command of the aircraft and exercise his authority under the regulations. He could have refused to accept that clearance based on the unsafe conditions.

My second concern is if the wind was actually gusting to 70 knots, why would you turn an airplane downwind and taxi in those conditions? This is disturbing to me."

Daimond Girl. In any other country it may have been possible to divert to another location and land safely but this was in China.

All other airports that could have been used as an alternate had these strong winds forecast. But you see the alternate airports were more than 1 hours flight time away as we were not allowed to use air force bases under any circumstances. In China you require 24 hours notice before you commence a flight. If the pilot in command had been ordered by ATC to land but had decided to fly to another airport without clearance then the air force would have been scrambled. At that time no VFR maps had been issued and the aircraft did not carry IFR plates. Special security passes were required for cross country flights but these had not been issued to the pilots. Had the pilot diverted to another airport and could not land there because of the wind conditions they could have found themselves in a serious fuel condition. Aviation fuel was not available at those airports either had they been able to land. When the pilot landed there was no wind information given to them by the control tower and visibility was almost zero from sand and dust and would have been very difficult to determine wind direction and strength. Taking all these things into consideration I am sure that most pilots would have done the same. In the end had the METAR information been correct and the information given to the tower by the air force been used then I am sure no one would have been flying and the accident would not have happened.

thepilot730

14th Oct 2006, 23:20

I would have to agree with Howard regarding the accident on the ground. If the Chief pilot landed safety he/she should of stopped that plane on a taxiway and had someone come out and help them push the plane to parking. Any pilot knows that you don't taxi or land a plane with a 70 knots wind. It is a miracle that the plane landed safety.

In regards to MexicanJack. Dude, you have to chill. I understand that you were sold a bunch of lies, but you are acting childish. You could make your point and be respected much more if you took out the attacks.

I was weary about joining Pan Am. Last December 2005 I made a trip out to China for some sighting seeing and to visit the academy first hand. Back then Pat was also telling me about the problems that they were encountering like no VFR maps, no cross country routes, restricted airspace, very little flying, etc. When a school starts up especially in a Communist country you have to give it time for the kinks to be workd out. People seem to forget that China is a third world country. China is in no way like the USA, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, etc.

After all my research I have made the decision to join Pan Am in Dec. Hope to meet new people and add something nice to my resume. :}

Always Moving

17th Oct 2006, 15:05

Hi to all!

There is a lot of half truths and a lot of anger. The reason is that most of people that work there are frustrated.
Management not Pat or Howard (they are the middle man) do not make sense to the flight instructor working there. Things would happen and then one instructor will start asking if he knew anything about it. It was a HUGE rumor mill that some management even laugh about it (it used to infuriated me when management tells me “you know!... the rumor mill....” I am like “Fix it M.F. Informed the people” thinking to myself.
We need PC's but they buy paintings for example.

Accidents happens, but when you have five or six prop strikes and you do not do an investigation on why do we hit this props so often, It can of leaves you wondering.....(did they ever open or look at the engines with the prop strikes......?) Can you tell me that Safety is paramount? Getting the people done by a date was.

If you have no flight time and need a job, likes adventure and travel, it might be your place.

I personally did not have a bad time. Could have been better, yes, with a bit, only a bit of thinking.
If you thinking of going to China, look at more forums, read about it, talk with the people, belive half! Look at who is th person who post, how long and how many posts they have, etc.

But know this. You are nothing to the chines is why you will not be informed of nothing ahead of time. They are brutally racist to us and between them.

I could talk A LOT about the company good and bad if you seriously considering going I can tell you what is going on or putting you in contact with some of the people there. I could put examples of everything but like EGGY said that will take tooooooo long.

How can I explain it. It feels like two friends were watching “Wings” for the first time and said, hey we can teach people how to fly and Peter has an Airport in his “dominions” so we make a flight school.

CorsairDB1

18th Oct 2006, 17:40

I appriciate all the postings on here and have had some pretty frank conversations about the country and conditions. It looks like I'll be going to China on Nov 14.
For those who have been: what did you wish you had brought that you hadn't thaught of?
I'm certainly bringing a lot of extra things like toothpaste and shompoo only because I used to live with a girl from Hong Kong and know that most of the products I'm familiar with are not availiable. I've heard that the hotel only has bath tubs, anyone know of some type of shower adapter-type-aparatus that I could McGyver into place to get a descent shower?
I'm bringing a few weeks of malaria meds so I can go south when I get some off-time. How hard was it to travel in the region (say to Thailand or Vietnam)?

I saw 20+ Cessna 172s and 182s the other day that are being installed in shipping containers in Wichita, KS and sent to China. Anyone know where they might be headed? BPA getting some competition?