CATC.

[Mr_Grubby]

One of my spies at LTCC tells me this morning that the College site has been sold to Bournemouth Airport to develop a new terminal.

Anybody heard this ?

Grubby.

[Flaps ten please]

From yesterday's announcement at CATC the site will be available from "mid 2009"

Sounds like good sense for the airport to build a new terminal if they have the funds available...

A decent transport link would be welcome, too, or maybe a Travel Inn?

[Wonkavater]

Obvious question, where's CATC moving to?

[Cuddles]

I wouldn't be surprised if it went to CTC / Swanwick, easier to run the college as a piggyback annexe of a much bigger unit. Makes a lot of sense financially, and it'll be easier for swanwick ATCOs to instruct and keep valid.

The above is based purely on guesswork, like so much of what I do:rolleyes:

[eastern wiseguy]

Did we own the site? or did we rent it?......hope we get a few quid for it anyway!

[tori chelli]

My spies told me that expansion of CTC to accomodate the NSL and external (whatever that is) training business is absolutely NOT an option.
Heathrow was considered the current favourite option because it's got a snazzy address :hmm: :hmm: in the aviation world, and the boss of NSL wants to put his HQ somewhere, and as an ex-EGLL ATCO he has nostalgic ties to the place.
If they still do 9-5 (ish), then god help those travelling in by car :ooh:
Tori

[Jerricho]

Obvious question, where's CATC moving to?

I heard Prestwick :E

[wizad]

but...... heathrow.

expensive land, rent, buildings etc etc.

and with these new trainees getting less and less... doesnt make much sense. but it is management so with these reasons in mind it will probably be so.

[nodelay]

Heard somehwere near Aberdeen was a possibility. Would the students get a grant?

Hey Hezza fancy that? :ok:

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<and as an ex-EGLL ATCO he has nostalgic ties to the place.>>

Always nosey.... would some kind soul care to PM me and tell me who that is.. and what NSL means please?

Thanks

Bren McCartney

[Gonzo]

NSL is NATS Services Ltd, effectively 'Airports'.

NERL is NATS En Route Ltd, effectively 'Area'.

[Fidgell]

Id be interested to hear the thoughts of those currently considering applying to NATS in light of CATC moving..... will you be taking legal action over the issue of being a "mobile grade"???

:eek: :} ;)

[Number2]

Always prepared to be corrected, but I understand the land at Hurn is leased.

[flower]

We had a discussion about this at work yesterday and I must admit I find astonishing the rumour that some students will be trained at Heathrow CTB. On 10K a year where the heck are they going to find accommodation around there and the journey in will be horrendous. I do hope the Heathrow CTB rumour is just exactly that.

[Gonzo]

In the Heathrow 'area' might be a rumour, but we have to get out of the CTB by 2008, so by the time CATC closes, we won't be there!

[nodelay]

Sometime ago (2yrs ish) there was a project (CTC based I think) looking into the possibility of new recruits alomost being sponsored/backed (not financially) by individual units. My understanding was that the unit would support the Cadets training at CATC, wherever that might be, and after graduation would then be posted back to their 'sponsoring' unit. Has anybody else heard of this? Details a little sketchy I know, but the project/initiative was being run by ex CATC instructor. I'd be interested to know if the idea is still be researched.

[Spitoon]

We had a discussion about this at work yesterday and I must admit I find astonishing the rumour that some students will be trained at Heathrow CTB. On 10K a year where the heck are they going to find accommodation around there and the journey in will be horrendous. I do hope the Heathrow CTB rumour is just exactly that.Let's get real. Basic training is never going to be done......unless of course you consider the quality of trainees leaving CATC means that the unit ends up doing the basic stuff.

[GT3]

Rumour of a business park near LHR will house the simulator once the tower is sold. Could this be part of the CATC near LHR rumour?

[feinwerkbau]

I heard CATC was moving to CTC.......but it may just be rumour..........

[Flaps ten please]

What they told us:
A new Training Centre will be created as part of the NSL business. This training centre will deliver NERL’s basic training requirements, service all of NSL’s internal training requirements and provide a wide range of products and services to external customers.
NERL’s advanced training will be CTC/centres based. The location of the new Training Centre for Excellence is yet to be finalised. Options are being considered and it may not be sited at CTC.
The intention is to complete the move from Hurn by mid-2009. This will affect all staff and functions based at Hurn.
There is a need to establish the new Training Centre for Excellence by the end of 2007 which means that some people could be moving next year to work at the centre.
The intention is to move the research & development and simulation activities to the CTC in time to complete the move from Hurn by mid-2009.

[Dances with Boffins]

Hurn is [or was?] the only site still owned by NATS. All existing planning applications for the new Bournemouth terminal are not on the current CATC site. This doesn't mean that new plans haven't been drawn up.

[LTNman]

HUNDREDS of local jobs are up in the air at Bournemouth Airport after staff at the National Air Traffic Services (NATS) facilities there, including the training college and research centre, were told they could be moving as early as next year.

In a memo to staff, NATS managers said the move to new centres - not disclosed but believed to include the company's headquarters at Fareham and other bases at Manchester and Prestwick airports - was due to be completed by 2009 and would "affect all staff and functions based at Hurn".

But plans to set up a new training centre for excellence by the end of 2007 could see some of the 450 Hurn-based staff moving next year to work at the new site, likely to be located at the NATS corporate and technical centre at Whiteley, close to the Swanwick national air traffic control centre.

NATS senior press officer Donna Casey stressed no final decisions had been made for the relocation of the college, which trains personnel for air traffic control services at home and abroad, including those provided by NATS at 15 major UK airports including Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted, Luton and Southampton.

continued...
The company, which was partially privatised five years ago, also operates en-route air traffic control for aircraft flying through UK and North Atlantic airspace and last year handled some two million planes carrying 220 million passengers.

Future in-flight air traffic control will be provided from centres at Swanwick in Hampshire and Prestwick in Scotland, where a new centre is being developed, leaving vacant premises at existing NATS bases at West Drayton in Middlesex, Prestwick and Manchester airport.

In a press statement issued yesterday, Ms Casey said: "NATS intends to establish a training centre for excellence in 2007 to take forward our future training requirements.

"This reflects the success and progress of our training department, both in servicing NATS' needs and in winning external business.

"Our two businesses, NERL (NATS en-route Ltd) and NSL (NATS Services Ltd) have differing expectations of training and we are working closely to meet their particular requirements.

"As a result, we will be moving our training facilities from Hurn by mid-2009. We are currently evaluating a number of possible sites."

http://www.thisisdorset.net/display.var.950999.0.airport_staff_could_face_move_in_2007.p hp

[Strepsils]

The article is slightly misleading. NATS don't provide any ATC services at Hurn airport, it just so happens that the college and ATMDC happen to be located at the airport. A move was always on the cards once Swanick was built and NSC was confirmed.

[viaEGLL]

Does it say anywhere in the article that NATS does provide ATC service at Bournemouth:= :=

[viaEGLL]

It still does not mention ATC service at bournemouth airport so never assume:= :=
Also , owning that plot of land which the airport wants so it can build a new terminal may have a lot to do with the airport !!!

[BDiONU]

Also , owning that plot of land which the airport wants so it can build a new terminal may have a lot to do with the airport !!!
Amend that to read DESPERATELY needed new terminal! Worst I've seen in the UK in recent years, looks like a hangover from the second world war buildings.

BD

[Vino Collapso]

"NATS intends to establish a training centre for excellence in 2007 to take forward our future training requirements.


Why must these people insist on using 'yuck speak' like this? :yuk:

Do they mean 'We are building a new college somewhere else'?

...and whats this excellence bit all about, judging by other postings on this forum by those who have knowledge of the system the colleges ability to provide excellence is questionable.:hmm:

[viaEGLL]

Don't you just love NATS!!
We are closing the college but do we really have a new plan??
I doubt it.. It will be the usual react rather than proact:ugh: :ugh:

[anotherthing]

ViaEGLL

ye of little faith. There is a plan.

The plan is to set up a "college of excellence somewhere". Location, format and time TBC.



What more do you want!!!!!!

[viaEGLL]

Sorry i keep forgetting its that simple !!
Thats maybe why i am still just an ATCO:O :O

[Minesapint]

Or contact out ATC training altogether, or run a separate wholly owned NATS Training Ltd?

That's why there is no plan - cos they don't know yet. My dosh is on the last option. Young budding ATCO's, welcome to Whitely. No mor AIP reading on Bournemouth beaches or being run over by OAP's driving on the pavement in Boscombe. :uhoh:

[anotherthing]

Minesapint

think you have hit the nail on the head with the last option.

Methinks this will be a separate entity - just as airports and area, and run on a business footing as such. Though how the company can make money merely teaching 'bookwork' courses is beyond me at the moment.

Units are going to become responsible for their own recruitment and further training, which means much bigger training sections in the future.


Be interesting if TC and LACC have separate facilities, as the method of acheiving the controlling aim of each is very different and requires different emphasis placed on varying skills.

One would also hope that once units become responsible for their own training, they will have the common sense to push their students out to other units (which interact with them) for famil training - thus bringing back the background understanding of other ATCOs tasks.

It's a good opportunity to really buck up the training system for the right reasons; if it is done properly.

[viaEGLL]

Keep this quite but i heard a rumour today that they were considering taking over the compass centre when BA move out.For what i hear you ask !! This is where NSL will do their training.
I leave this thought open for your wise comments:O :O

[anotherthing]

I have heard that they want the 'prestige' of a Heathrow address - pity the students on ten grand that have to live near there!!

[2 sheds]

Why must these people insist on using 'yuck speak' like this? :yuk:
Do they mean 'We are building a new college somewhere else'?
...and whats this excellence bit all about, judging by other postings on this forum by those who have knowledge of the system the colleges ability to provide excellence is questionable.:hmm:
Probably the same people who have been responsible for the shambolic Basic-Course-and-no-Aerodrome-Training-for-all policy think that if they call it a centre for excellence, somehow it must be something special - buffoons, the lot of them.

[viaEGLL]

2 Sheds :D :D :D :D
Just think EXCELLENCE or was it EXCELLENT dude

[747-436]

Moving the initial course to near Heathrow would be nice, I only say that though as I live near LHR and am considering applying to ATC soon!
Would be nice not to have to move! Will be difficult though for those who have to move from elsewhere though as it is not the cheapest place to live.

[Kestrel_909]

=
Would be nice not to have to move! Will be difficult though for those who have to move from elsewhere though as it is not the cheapest place to live.

Got a spare room? :sad:

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

747-436

A word of advice about being posted close to home. You may miss out on a lot of camaraderie and your mates on the course can be a great aid to learning. Secondly, home creates a lot of distractions and conflicts over use of time. It’s worth a thought.

GBZ

[Ops_Monkey]

This may be a bit OT but i overheard some mutterings that post 9/11 NATS were considering keeping west drayton alive on alert 5 (unmanned just ready to go) just incase someone decided to fly a jet into swanick and wipe out 54N and below causing choas in the air..
I know they have knocked down what used to be RAF West Drayton and are now building houses on it.. would be silly to put all ones ATC eggs in one basket without a standby once LATCC finally closes :ugh:

[Gonzo]

I know they have knocked down what used to be RAF West Drayton and are now building houses on it

Awww, jeez! Really? I'm going there for a course later this month. You mean to say I'll be wearing a hard hat for two days?

[anotherthing]

Ops Monkey -

there used to be certain measures in place in case west drayton got knocked out when Swanwick did not exist. Certain Military units around the country were earmarked to be used to provide cover for the country

I am sure the same thing could be done again (using other assets instead of keeping West Drayton open at great expense)

Thw whole site is ear marked for housing.

[Bev Bevan]

I have heard that they want the 'prestige' of a Heathrow address - pity the students on ten grand that have to live near there!!

Would be a nasty commute for Hurn ATSAs posted up there, cos they sure as hell wont be able to afford anything more than a cardboard box in Tower Hamlets in the area...

[Dunebug]

Just to throw some more Avgas on the fire - don't forget that there's some prime real estate becoming available in the Prestwick area sometime in the near future that will include (amongst other things) a ready made Ops. room and more office space than even NATS managers would know what to do with :}

What you would loose in sunbathing time would be more than made up for by the excellent kite surfing weather...:)

[747-436]

Kestral 909, there is a spare room where I live currently.

GBZ, near LHR is not my only home so no problem there, not my main home either really, although I have been up that way on and off since I started Uni in 1998.

[BDiONU]

This may be a bit OT but i overheard some mutterings that post 9/11 NATS were considering keeping west drayton alive on alert 5 (unmanned just ready to go) just incase someone decided to fly a jet into swanick and wipe out 54N and below causing choas in the air..
I know they have knocked down what used to be RAF West Drayton and are now building houses on it.. would be silly to put all ones ATC eggs in one basket without a standby once LATCC finally closes :ugh:
Contingency is in place for all the ACC's and it doesn't include WD :)

BD

[eastern wiseguy]

Got a spare room? :sad:


Something you want to tell me Chris?:p

[chevvron]

So not only do NATS put LACC, LTCC and CTC on adjacent sites, but ATMDC is now to be co-located. And just one terrorist bomb threat occurs on the site; what happens? Just Imagine to coin a phrase!
NB NATS used to be ATS provider at Hurn, but I think they lost the contract in about '73, before most of you lot were born!

[2 sheds]

1st April 1979 - contract taken over by IAL.

[Gonzo]

Chevvron, it would have to be a pretty big bomb to disable CTC and LACC at the same time! We're talking instant sunshine.....

[BDiONU]

So not only do NATS put LACC, LTCC and CTC on adjacent sites, but ATMDC is now to be co-located. And just one terrorist bomb threat occurs on the site; what happens? Just Imagine to coin a phrase!
NB NATS used to be ATS provider at Hurn, but I think they lost the contract in about '73, before most of you lot were born!
LACC and LTCC will be on one site CTC is on a different site about 3 miles (as the crow flies) away. I think you've got be pragmatic about the perceived terrorist bomb threat. What is the risk as opposed to how much more convenient it is to have all the support staff (CTC) in one area so you're not forever driving to different places for meetings?

There are also other issues which its not appropriate to discuss in an open forum (think about how exposed WD and the Ops room is!)

BD

[THE FREAK]

I find this news of Hurn’s demise sad and utterly bewildering! NATS has a good (be it old) facility at Hurn, in a great location, with good traffic links and accommodation and entertainment for visiting controllers, students and VIP’s. They now intend to spend an absolute fortune in moving the set-up to either the hell-hole of Whitely, or even further a field. A move to Heathrow would be madness and would be done solely for kudos.

From what I can gather, this so-called Centre of Excellence needs to look the part as well as carry out the function required. I’m sure many would agree that the building design and fantastic site location of Hurn is far more appealing than a face-less call centre style building at the CTC, or similar facility at Heathrow, Slough, Basingstoke ….

Why not re-build and invest in Hurn. It would be cheaper than moving and creating the chaos and mass-disturbance for the students, staff and customer units.

But heh, its’ just another crappy decision from the non-ATC suits in Fimble valley!

:ugh:

[BDiONU]

Why not re-build and invest in Hurn. It would be cheaper than moving and creating the chaos and mass-disturbance for the students, staff and customer units.
As I said in my previous post its much better to keep all the support staff in one area so there is less travelling and time wasted. Plus there is cost saving to be made with only one Facilities Management team required etc. etc.

If it were located at Whiteley how much more convenient that would be for AC and TC controllers participating in Real time simulations, little additional travel to the normal job.

If the Hurn site needs re-building then it could be built anywhere but may be more problematic at the existing site if there is no land to build on whilst still running the existing facility.

Hurn airport DESPERATELY need a new terminal so there may have been financial incentive, in addition to that of co-location, for NATS to move out.

Makes sound financial sense to my ATC support mind.

BD

[mats3]

BDiONU

Hurn already have planning permission for their new terminal and it is not on the CATC site.

[Gonzo]

Hurn does need demolishing due to asbestos.

[120.4]

Locating CATC to CTC would enable current ATCOs to be involved in the early stages of training and I think that is important. How many times have we heard OJTIs say that they need to bring trainees out of the college world and into the real world?
I believe that in Germany college training used to be done in a similar way, i.e. trainees for Frankfurt are trained by valid Frankfurt ATCOs. (Don't know if it still is.)
.4

[Yellow Snow]

Keep this quite but i heard a rumour today that they were considering taking over the compass centre when BA move out.For what i hear you ask !! This is where NSL will do their training.
I leave this thought open for your wise comments

Errrr.... Where did you get this from ViaEGLL?

Where are BA going? Hurn;)

[chevvron]

Compass Centre at Heathrow is built on the original site of? LATCC!!!

NB Lots of empty buildings around Farnborough, plus lots of space for purpose built complex.

[161R]

From BA Travelplan 05

T5 opens in Spring 2008, allowing us to consolidate our operations as opposed to operating from the three terminals we currently use. Our crew will report direct to T5, rather than to Compass Centre,

Conveniently situated for the NATS relocated staff to watch the construction of a new runway at LL and associated infrastructure, don't you think?
Suggestions for the next blindingly obvious move please?

[Number2]

Blindingly stupid move if you ask me. Pay the students 10k a year and then ask them to live/commute in West London. Nice!!!

[tori chelli]

quote :- Blindingly stupid move if you ask me. Pay the students 10k a year and then ask them to live/commute in West London. Nice!!!

My CATC spy tells me that the theory was 'floated' at the staff meeting that the compass centre will have an associated hostel/hotel to make the centre of excellence a 'residential' college, thereby eliminating some of the low salary/cost of living issues. Arquably (and you will :) ) quite a clever solution. Doesn't help the staff though; particularly the ATSA's as someone mentioned earlier.

Tori

[161R]

Lest my previous post be construed as supporting the possible move to the Compass Centre , I was merely hinting at the possible demolition of some northside properties in support of a new Heathrow runway, and the effect on any relocated staff.

Now that's what I call :mad:

[Number2]

'the compass centre will have an associated hostel/hotel'

Are BA really about to give up their crew accommodation opposite the Compass Centre or are you talking about another hotel/hostel elsewhere?

It's a really poor idea just to have the 'right address'. Reminds me of the saleswoman in Bournemouth justifying the ridiculous cost of her apartments - "It has a very prestigous post-code".

[tori chelli]

Number2

can't say about the planned location...it was just the word from someone at the meeting, but as to moving because it's the 'right address'...I agree, daft!
Tori

[anotherthing]

Tori Chelli,

Although an embuggerance to ATSAs who have been living in Dorset - they will be no worse off if the move goes ahead than those ATSAs who already work in the London area... yes they will be worse off - bit it is already being managed by ATSAS here :)

[ATSA_Grunt]

CTC is the rumour on the street

[ATSA_Grunt]

CTC is the rumour on the street. NATS (if they're clever will offload LHR CTB) for a large amount of cash and if they need to, locate admin/support to a cheaper site nearby. Swanwick doesn't have the space for CATC and I hear they are going to enlarge CTC. BUT....

1. When have NATS done what makes sense?

And....

2. What do I know, I'm just a grunt!

[Dances with Boffins]

It ain't CTC, there is no room.

[steve_atc]

More rumours of CATC moving to Farnborough. Any news on this?

[Dances with Boffins]

.. also Prestwick, Wales, the Moon.... The gods don't know, so believe any rumour you want. It probably isn't true.