Help needed from ATC re: STARs

[Eight Ball]

Hi guys,

Was wondering if any ATC out there can help with a question regarding Standard Arrival Routes selection for a learner driver.

Here goes.....

Considering the direction I am coming in from, I would select a waypoint (and include it in my flight plan) for the destination that would be the first waypoint in a STAR having a final approach to a particular runway/s.

My first question is - if there was a change of runway or inbound direction rendering my planned STAR unworkable, where and who can I get the new STAR from? Is it with Approach or something further like with Radar ?

My second one is - If I did not nominate a waypoint for a STAR, will I be given one or will I be radar vectored instead for an instrument approach ?

And lastly - in regards to heavies, I can only assume that they have pre-programmed their STARs into their FMC even before departure, would ATC change this for any reason ?

Much appreciated.

Eight Ball

[Ratshit]

8 Balls - There are others who do much more of this stuff than I do - in heavies, but here's my 2 bob's worth.

STARS always seem to me to be an ATC thing. I plan direct to the aerodrome and let ATC give me a STAR if they want to (love that "Smoka transition"). Usually the same deal if they want me on the ILS.

The only time I pre-planned the ILS (for currency) they vectored me all over the sky for smooth traffic flow.

My GPS has most of the STARs pre-programmed so it is no big deal to call up the one they give, and I have Jepp Electronic Charts as well.

I think the ATCs computers let them work out who will arrive where and when and they work around that to make it all flow smoothly - which it seems to do much of the time.

I look forward to seeing what the "experts" have to say about this!

R:cool:

[Shitsu_Tonka]

Considering the direction I am coming in from, I would select a waypoint (and include it in my flight plan) for the destination that would be the first waypoint in a STAR having a final approach to a particular runway/s.

In fact if you are on a published Route, these will normally have a Waypoint that transitions in to a STAR. If you are on a non-published Route you might get an Amended Roue Clearance or simply get vectored for an IAL if required.

My first question is - if there was a change of runway or inbound direction rendering my planned STAR unworkable, where and who can I get the new STAR from? Is it with Approach or something further like with Radar ?


Most STARS will use the same point for either Runway, or may in fact be applicable to 2 or More Runways, so the STAR does not need to be re-issued, just the Runway. If your FMC can handle it punch in the new Runway. If it can't, or if your profile is now no good, just task for vectors for xx track miles.

My second one is - If I did not nominate a waypoint for a STAR, will I be given one or will I be radar vectored instead for an instrument approach ?


See First Answer

And lastly - in regards to heavies, I can only assume that they have pre-programmed their STARs into their FMC even before departure, would ATC change this for any reason ?

Not sure anyone would get too far ahead of the aircraft in this regard, but will obviously aniticipate it a couple of hundred miles out - to no doubt get changed anyway!

---------

As far as STARS being an ATC thing, this is essentially true. STARS are designed to segregate ARR and DEP through LAT and VNAV requirements - also significantly reduce the amount of RT, which is a blessing when busy (for you and for ATC). Also give you accurate Track Miles for your descent planning. Although not neccessarily in YSSY where the STARS have a lot of Route Discontinuity and you get vectored to final anyway.

[DirtyPierre]

RS,

Very good, and very close.

8Balls, you should plan your flight as per ERSA. The STARs are designed to link with the flight plan tracks into those aerdromes that have them.

If you don't plan correctly, the controller responsible for issuing the STAR will reclear you to the first point and then the applicable STAR.

The controller responsible for issuing the STAR depends on your level and route. For jets, this would be the enroute controller responsible for the airspace about 160 - 200NM from destination.

if there was a change of runway or inbound direction rendering my planned STAR unworkable, where and who can I get the new STAR from? Is it with Approach or something further like with Radar ?

If a change of STAR is required, the controller controlling you at the time will advise you and ask if you can accept a new STAR. If you can't, then an ammended clearance with an expectation will be issued. E.g. "Cancel STAR, track Blaka JCW BN, expect radar vectors from JCW"

If I did not nominate a waypoint for a STAR, will I be given one or will I be radar vectored instead for an instrument approach ?


When applicable you will be given a STAR. The STAR will link to your arrival (visual approach or instrument approach). If you cannot accept a STAR, then expect an ammended clearance and radar vectoring for your approach.

Hope this helps.

[Capn Bloggs]

in regards to heavies, I can only assume that they have pre-programmed their STARs into their FMC even before departure, would ATC change this for any reason ?
They don't, or they shouldn't, until they get cleared for the STAR. Then it gets loaded into the FMS flight plan and off the jet goes.

I heard on one occasion a QF A330 (I assume with datalink) being growled at by ATC because TAAATS had detected that the ATC cleared route no longer matches the FMS route, since the crew had "preloaded" the STAR they were expecting. :=

[Feather #3]

Heavies load the STARS all the time given that there can be variations with a runway change. In fact, the heavier you are the easier it is as the runway choices are reduced [and a runway may need to be "required"; we live in a country where landing into wind takes second place to noise abatement!]

As to when, that varies. If the domestic guys are doing short sectors, they may put one in prior to departure. Long haul or otherwise, sometime in the cruise. When the clearance is given, the crew verify that the clearance in the RTE page matches the requirement. Simple.

As to the datalink A330 quote; you can't ask or link a route to ATC as they get very upset if they think you've loaded anything other than they've told you. Only in Oz [yet again] do they wait until the last minute to tell you what's happening and then feign amazement that anybody would be able to reduce workload at top-of-descent by pre-empting.

G'day ;)

[Shitsu_Tonka]

As far as I have seen the STAR is issued at about 150-200nm - whats the problem?


I heard on one occasion a QF A330 (I assume with datalink) being growled at by ATC because TAAATS had detected that the ATC cleared route no longer matches the FMS route, since the crew had "preloaded" the STAR they were expecting.

Care to elaborate? Are you suggesting ATC have some way of determining what has been inputted in to the FMC?

[SM4 Pirate]

As far as I have seen the STAR is issued at about 150-200nm - whats the problem?
Care to elaborate? Are you suggesting ATC have some way of determining what has been inputted in to the FMC?
I think with CPDLC reports you can give the game away; ie it shows what is coming next; the "trial" for tailored arrivals was downlinking something about the FMC...

Re 'sharing the info'; the STAR is usually issued by the ATCs involved in the descent (the other ATCs have no idea what will be issued so don't), on some routes this is as close to destination at 80NM, but it is rare and the STAR issued is hardly a surprise...

Otherwise it's always by 110NM out usually a lot further out than that. The concept is you get STAR'd before Top of descent, although there are examples where this isn't possible. But that would be a secret.

[Capn Bloggs]

ST,
Are you suggesting ATC have some way of determining what has been inputted in to the FMC?
The ATC said that he got a "Route Conformance Warning" from, I assume, TAAATS. The A330 then admitted they had loaded the STAR prior to them being given it.

Feather,
I think you're being a little overdramatic. Even if you were still reading the paper at 100 track miles and were then given the STAR, it's not a big deal to load it in a few seconds. I would very much doubt short-haul pilots load STARs into the acitve plan prior to takeoff: that would be bad airmanship and courting trouble, if not forbidden by SOPs. That's what the secondary flight plan is for, but before takeoff? Not worth the effort.

EightBall,
Re STARs, we don't put them in the active plan until we are given them, but they are in the database and can be retrieved and inserted into the active plan with a few keystrokes.

Especially for a lighty pilot, I wouldn't be encouraging pre-loading STARs at all. Sure as eggs he'd get distracted and end up going somewhere he wasn't supposed to.

As has already been mentioned, plan via the routes in ERSA GEN FPR. You then can't go wrong.:ok:

[UFB]

"Route Conformance Warning"
TAAATS compares the datalink/ads position sent from the linked aircraft with its known flight data. If there is a discrepency, TAAATS provides a warning to the controller. Unusual to be associated with STAR since STARs usually associated with airport with radar coverage, and radar info over-rides the datalink.
Tailored Arrivals is an extension to the CPDLC command set that allows ATC to send a STAR route (with vertical nav limits) directly to aircraft. The pilot then accepts, and the arrival route and level requirements are load into FMS. Has been trialled, and is progressing. Stage 2 didn't involve ATC - it was done remotely.

[Nil defects]

Yes, if you are logged on to CPDLC, ATC can see everything that is in Route 1 (Boeing) of the FMC.

Two years ago, and a thousand miles off the coast, we got a message from ATC to remove the STAR that we had inserted enroute as we hadn`t been cleared for it yet. I really wanted to tell them to eff off as this is my FMC not theirs and I will use it as I deem appropriate. Anyway, since that time I still insert the expected arival, approach and runway and nobody has told me otherwise.

I generally find in Australian Airports that the STAR clearance is delivered too late to crews to enable them to give a proper brief. Rushed briefings during descent are a hazard and a threat to air safety. If the STAR clearance arrives and is different to expected then change the FMS entries or if the FMS has a secondary/alternate Flight Plan storage and it has already been preloaded with a different runway, checked and briefed it is only a matter of activating and executing.

There is less risk loading and briefing the expected clearance than rushing briefings. I don`t feel there is a significant risk of pilots flying the wrong STAR if the clearance is different to what has been loaded. Any clearance received should be checked against the box anyway.

My two cents worth.

[Shitsu_Tonka]

Anyone using CPDLC from ATC side like to confirm what Nil Defects claims?

Was news to me - I thought Route Adherance depended on ADS-C comparison to the TAAATS FDP inputted Route, i.e. independent of the FMC data?

Tailored Arrivals exception?

[Knackers]

Yes, we get an ARCW - an ADS Route Conformance Warning.

The controller is supposed to query it because it differs from the cleared route. If the pilot doesn't amend the route, the alert has to be coordinated to the next sector prior to hand-off.

We see quite a few of them on acft coming from the Eastern States as pilots try to anticipate the STAR they'll receive. It isn't a problem, except that a prominent yellow line of the non-conforming route is displayed on the screen which we can't remove and it can make the screen look quite congested.

[Eight Ball]

Guys, I absolutely take my hat off to all of you for all the info I am picking up here and the "yes and no's " to my questions. This is so informative - thanks a million.
These are things I would never learn from my books.

Looks like I am seeing different experiences and angles from both pilots and ATC officers on how they handle the STARs.

So, it is advisable not to load the STARs prior to departure for several reasons ( e.g. FMC/Datalink comparison, changes from ATC and airmanship) and only load it enroute when given. But as Nil defects has pointed out you can always load RTE 2 into the FMC if a different one is given. I guess it all depends on company SOPs or preference ?

Please continue if there are anymore as I am writing all of these down.

Pilots can fly the STARs but in most respects I don't know how ATC works and this surely gives me a picture on the controllers side too.

8 Ball

[No Further Requirements]

Eight ball - here's an idea - drop into your local ATC facility and ask. You said you don't know much about ATC and I'm sure it won't be an issue if you ring up and arrange a look-see at YSSY (that's where you are, yes?) Approach.

Most, if not all, ATCers are quite happy to sit down and expalin the job to people who take a genuine interest. These days, with EXTREMELY limited cross-pollenation opportunities, there is a general lack of understanding of what happens in both the cockpit and in front of the scope.

Good on you for asking the questions, and best of luck with the answers!

Cheers,

NFR.

[Keg]

I would very much doubt short-haul pilots load STARs into the acitve plan prior to takeoff: that would be bad airmanship and courting trouble, if not forbidden by SOPs.

'Bad airmanship'? I did it for about 800 sectors of domsetic flying over nine years and not once did I ever stuff it up in terms of not complying with a cleared route. I also always ensured that I briefed pre flight that a STAR was loaded and for us to confirm it. I always made sure that when the STAR was issued that it was cross checked. Realistically flying MEL-SYD you're going to get the RIVET 8 nineteen times out of twenty and the ODALE in RTE 2 would solve all ills.

It also meant that I had more time to concentrate on flying the aircraft at a busy time (like at top of descent in an aircraft that had a nasty habit of charging the barbers pole) and more time to just confirm the (probably) briefed clearance. It also enabled me to give the company a highly accurate ETA based on the most recent knowledge which was often important when the company was juggling bays, aircraft and other associated delays. So is it bad airmanship to enable yourself more time in a busy phase of flight by doing something earlier and ensuring that you have a plan in place to not stuff it up? :rolleyes:

[Feather #3]

Bloggs, how about we just agree to differ.

"Airmanship" I've always taken to be aviation common sense. This involves a safe operation and being practical. Taking one's cue from other threads, the ** STAR ** arrived in this country with great fanfare and drama. Some folks had been flying them for quite a while elsewhere.

New/modified SOP's now require the PF and PNF to be in their seats for descent, a descent checklist read and briefing done. You're doing around 8nm/min, so the STAR issued at 150nm gives you [arguably] 6.25 minutes to load, check, brief and do the checklist, even if the TOD is at 100nm. Let's not even consider the ATC inspired speed limit given just prior to TOD which pulls the profile back outside the 100nm.

So my take on "airmanship" is to have the most probable STAR loaded and ready to run with the show sorted. Although my hit rate is less than Keg's due to the nature of my flying, the prediction rate is right up there.

Thus, let's agree to differ and all be one happy family.

G'day ;)

[kellykelpie]

Capt Bloggs,

We generally always load the full Star before departure. That is the company standard. You load what you expect to get. You can always change it if cleared differently. (Having said that, our filed ATC plan also includes the expected STAR. This is only recently though.)

I like doing it because it gives a very accurate fuel over destination.

I think to call it poor airmanship is a little extreme given that it seems quite the norm in some other airlines.

In fact, mostly we load the STAR for the next sector in the secondary. Our turn-arounds are very tight and we do as much as we can on the way there. On landing we just activate secondary. Everything is there, perf, winds, etc etc. It gives a very accurate trip fuel, which is useful for refuelling (which we do ourselves). This is standard procedure.

[Capn Bloggs]

let's agree to differ
Rojer that! :ok:

[DeltaSix]

Eight ball - here's an idea - drop into your local ATC facility and ask. You said you don't know much about ATC and I'm sure it won't be an issue if you ring up and arrange a look-see at YSSY (that's where you are, yes?) Approach.


Hi NFR, do we need to bring our ASIC if we have to visit ?

Cheers
D6

[SM4 Pirate]

Hi NFR, do we need to bring our ASIC if we have to visit ? Only to the facilities located airside.

BN and ML centres, SY TCU, CS TCU and PH TCU are all non airside locations, not sure about AD TCU, but remember seeing their building off the road on the airport, but it may still be non-airside. Ring the numbers in ERSA and ask, then go for a visit.

[No Further Requirements]

Regards bringing ASIC, I'm sure it won't hurt to have it on you - doesn't really take up much space! And whoever you talk to to arrange it will advise you of the correct procedure for gaining entry.

Cheers,

NFR.

[Capt Claret]

But surely if one visits an ATS facility where they actually control aircraft, and one doesn't have an ASIC, one could be presumed to be a nefarious terrorist, intent on subverting the control of an aircraft or three, and causing mayhem!

[tobzalp]

Funnily enough, there are different ASICs. There is the Red one that lets you go Airside, like onto the aprons and stuff at airports and a grey one that is for, I think it is called, landside. The grey is for areas that are not airside. I personally have a grey one as my ops manager(ATC) said that is all I need... until I have to take the rostered famil flight and that grey baby does not get me onto the flight deck.:ugh: Exactly the same checks to get them by the way.

[UFB]

... one could be presumed to be a nefarious terrorist, intent on subverting the control of an aircraft or three, and causing mayhem!

ASIC or no ASIC ... you still need to be checked in with security.

Just contact the centre ... informal visits by pilots accomodated and welcome.

[willadvise]

Yes, if you are logged on to CPDLC, ATC can see everything that is in Route 1 (Boeing) of the FMC.
Two years ago, and a thousand miles off the coast, we got a message from ATC to remove the STAR that we had inserted enroute as we hadn`t been cleared for it yet. I really wanted to tell them to eff off as this is my FMC not theirs and I will use it as I deem appropriate. Anyway, since that time I still insert the expected arival, approach and runway and nobody has told me otherwise.

I suspect what Nil defects has encountered in this example is different to the ARCW warning. Correct me if I am wrong Nil defects, but I suspect you were flying QFA64 FAJO-YSSY and were crossing 45S. If my memory from West Proc days serves me correct this was going from Class G (below 45S) to Class A airspace and hence you had to get a clearance. Despite many protests from the operational staff and pilots, the dearly departed (from the organisation) datalink expert(?) came up with the brilliant idea that we would have to ask the aircraft send a request for clearance. The pilot would send the request containing data from there FMS which inevitably contained the STAR data. (This is where I think Nil defects has got the idea that we can see all there route info,I can confirm we only see the next waypoint and the next waypoint+1).We weren't permitted to clear the aircraft for the star from 2000nm out so we had to get them to send the request without the STAR info. We would then send them back a "clearance" which contained exactly the same route data which they would reload to there FMS (perhaps minus STAR data). Sometimes if the route was particulary long, TAAATS dropped the end waypoints because the route editor couldn't handle long routes. The pilots hated it because it involved manipulating the FMS, 8 hrs into the flight when they are probably at there lowest alertness. It was an exercise which increased the chances of a mistake being made somewhere along the way which could have had serious consequences in the Sydney area if the data contained in the FMS or in the TAAATS flight data record was incorrect. I believe that the airspace has been reclassified Class A and us such the only flight to suffer such shenagians these days is the QF Antartic flights.
BTW Nil defects I totally agree with you about the FMS. We shouldn't be interfering with it. The clearance CPDLC message should only be used when I am giving ammended route clearances and all "paper" clearances should have been given by freetext. Did you take this up with your procedures people? Sometimes things only get changed if the pilots complain. Personally I don't care what you load as long as you fly what you have been cleared. Unfortunately there were a couple of incidents on Perth arrivals where the controller received the ARCW warning indicating and aircraft had planned a STAR. They didn't act upon it because they thought the next sector (who would normally issue the STAR) would fix it. The aircraft then proceeded to fly the STAR without being issued it, the controller was stood down for not querying the alert.

[Capn Bloggs]

The aircraft then proceeded to fly the STAR without being issued it, the controller was stood down for not querying the alert.
And that's my point.

[Nil defects]

Thanks Will, that's interesting info.

You were reasonably close as we were inbound Perth but in a B777 and from the North-West so definitely not south of 45 South. In fact, as you know the Australian FIR out in that direction extends to almost Columbo.

Male' airspace is Class G and Columbo is A/G so presumably G near the FIR boundary but haven't actually been able to determine what it is.

At the time we got a CPDLC message to remove the arrival we were already well inside Australian airspace and presumably already had a route clearance, so I am still mystified why we had to do that. I will add as before though that it doesn`t seem to occur now - has the software been upgraded?

On another issue with CPDLC, whilst you're here-
We have had many non-compliance infringements for such heinous offences as adding "Good Morning" onto a CPDLC position report. I would go as far as to say some guys would rather use HF these days, to make a request, than run the risk of a note from the CAA for any non-standard use. HF might be taped but every word you utter is not printed out for some imbecile in the office to ring you up three weeks later. Why are the CAA so pedantic about this. Some places like Calcutta actually send you a "Good Morning"when you log on. It is the only nice thing about Calcutta but makes a pleasant change from the stress in Australian FIR's.

One more question: If you are entering Australian FIR from Class G (eg Columbo) and make the standard Log on 20 mins before the boundary and send a position report and make a Selcal Check on HF, are you required to send a Clearance request as well or can one assume that the logon and position report are sufficient.

I know it is progress that ADS now provides you with every aircraft's exact postion but in some regards it was far more relaxing pre ADS when you could fly across the Indian Ocean, avoiding buildups as you see fit without having to request Diversions left and right every ten minutes.

That is also a limitation of the CPDLC Route Request page. You can`t request 20 miles left AND right of TR except by making two clearance requests. Or is it acceptable to make one request say for L20 and add also R20 in the free text section with that request? What would you prefer?

I haven`t taken this up with our procedures people but probably should have. The effort to get the wheels turning is beyond my interest these days.

Thanks for the feedback - and I am happy you can't see all of Route 1!

[320/20]

But surely if one visits an ATS facility where they actually control aircraft, and one doesn't have an ASIC, one could be presumed to be a nefarious terrorist, intent on subverting the control of an aircraft or three, and causing mayhem!
No that's what FLOW and Approach are for. Curse, the secrets out! ;)

[Shitsu_Tonka]

Capt Claret

Without giving too much away, in some ways you are correct about security at ATC Centres. I remember visiting West Drayton before 9/11 to be greeted by a very nice looking sub-machine gun.

Perhaps they were expecting the arrival of the flow?

[Eight Ball]

We weren't permitted to clear the aircraft for the star from 2000nm out so we had to get them to send the request without the STAR info. We would then send them back a "clearance" which contained exactly the same route data which they would reload to there FMS (perhaps minus STAR data).

hi willadvise, thanks for the input - so at what distance or roughly when would the pilot expect to get the STAR clearance ? You mentioned "2,000 nm or did you mean 200 nm ? " - I'm not being nasty or anything - just noticed it.

If they couldn't get the same clearance, I could only think that they would have delete every single line of waypoints for the star in the FMS and re-load it to the ammended one ? Not unless of course they have it in RTE 2, I guess.

Just another question - would a STAR only be given while in controlled airspace ? what if you were coming in from class G into C or G into A ? thanks again.

[Knackers]

8-ball,

we regularly clear acft in on amended route clearances direct to STAR points or transition points.

[willadvise]

Nil defect
Colombo and Male now class A btwn F280-F460 so clearance not required if you are coming in from there. Establishing comms is not good enough your are supposed to get a clearance either through datalink or on HF.
I am still wondering how we knew what you were flying. An ARCW could have happenned a fair way out if you were on A594, NINOB-MERIB-QUINS-PH. If you had planned the STAR we would get the ARCW once you had passed NINOB, approx 612nm from Perth.
Were you asked to "Confirm Assigned Route" otherwise I can't think of anyway we would know that you had planned the STAR until you were within waypoint + 1.
When you say the CAA are you refering to an Australian body (maybe CASA or Airservices Australia, the CAA in Australia was split into these two seperate organisations a few years back). You shouldn't get in trouble for adding good morning onto the end of a message in Aussie airspace.
The practise of diverting around wx without clearance was probably OK when we were giving you 15min and 100nm cross track separation standards. The airlines have pushed for reduced separation in Oceanic areas and so we now have much reduced RNP separation standards. By taking unauthorised wx deviations you are increasing the risk of something going wrong. It doesn't take long to ask via datalink on most occasions we would prefer you to ask. I have passed your query about requesting L and R onto higher powers and someone may give you a response (BTW I wasn't aware of the limitation as we have the ability to clear you L and R in the same uplink so we just assumed you would have had the corresponding downlink)

Cheers
WA

[Chimbu chuckles]

Sounds like all this angst is about an unexpected consequence of datalink...thank god then that my current mount don't got it:}

We routinely load stars just after TOPC 8-11 hrs before arrival...and only rarely need to change the RWY and star transition.

It is not bad airmanship....bad airmanship would be not amending it if/when issued something different by ATC 200 miles out and then blindly following the majenta line.

Just because 1 crew in 1000s is so lacking in airmanship is no reason to dumb down the rest of us.

In some places, like Dubai, the star is not issued until virtually at TOPD...it seems to have escaped them that we are busy at that point in the flight...not to mention tired...or that a TOPD changes by 20-30nm depending on the runway/star combination. That little fact combined with, seemingly inevitable, speed control usually means we are flying nearly the entire descent with the speed brake out at DXB:ugh: I do accept that at DXB if the STAR was issued as far out as they do at somewhere like SY or LHR we would be on Muscat/Bahrain frequencies.

Experience shows that once you know what the wind is doing you generally know exactly what will follow. I am not a great fan of using RTE 2 for preloading alternative STAR transition/RWY because it requires temporarily going into HDG SEL while you sort out the correct TO waypoint and then re engaging LNAV...more button pushing when we may be less than on top of our game. When you RTE COPY, the entire route, from the point where you select RTE COPY, remains in the FMC rather than your next TO waypoint and the previous 'anchor' waypoint....meaning you could be searching through 4 or 5 LEGS pages to find the waypoint you were tracking to in RTE 1:ugh: