Aerobatics, the PFA and the PPL

[Confabulous]

Some time ago I posted about giving up PPL training and defecting to powered paragliders. So much for that - tales abound of broken props, legs, arms and backs. Compared to that, a Cessna is as safe as an armchair.

So I'm going back to PPL training, but not until I have the money to go all the way. Now, I confess to a love of throwing an aircraft around the sky (in a controlled fashion), and if it's done in a PA28 I'll eventually drill a big hole in the ground.

So I'm going to buy myself an entry level aerobatic aircraft once I finish the PPL, get a few hours under the belt plus a taildragger endorsement and aero instruction, then buy it. It's got to be PFA, it's got to be well under the £10,000 mark and be cheap to run (and maintain). I'll fly that for a couple hundred hours and then go on to a Pitts S1S or T, and maybe upgrade to an S2A/B after a thousand hours or so.

The question is, what would suit as an initial aerobatic a/c that fits the above criteria? Shares are out as I'm in Ireland and aero a/c are fairly rare here. Thanks guys.

Niall

[javelin]

Tipsy Nipper

[shortstripper]

Jurca Tempete.

[Them thar hills]

Tipsy Nipper it is.
If you can learn to do decent aeros in a Nipper you'll do them in anything !
A Nipper with inverted fuel and oil systems is a rarity, but they do exist.
Cheap to operate , safe but strong (sounds like something else !) and fun.
Barry Smith has the oldest Nipper in captivity, and you'd be impressed if you'd seen one of his displays.
;)

[Rod1]

Rans S-10

Rod1

[DaveW]

PFA website - list of aircraft cleared for aeros (http://www.pfa.org.uk/Engineering%20pdfs/Buying,%20Building%20or%20Importing%20an%20Aircraft/TL%201.09%20Aircraft%20Cleared%20for%20Aerobatics.pdf). (PDF)

[Pitts2112]

And you can ramp up your amitions regarding the Pitts. S-2 is actually easier to fly than the S-1 and you don't need anything like a thousand hours to handle one. I've got 450 hours total, 150 of them are in my S-1. I had about 150 hours taildragger before getting into the S-1 but that was as much a matter of circumstances as anything else. Get lots of circuit practice in a taildragger and you should be able to handle a Pitts in probably 50 hours or so (at a guess). The S-1T is the real beast of the fleet and is probably best tackled after a fair bit of time in another Pitts.

Pitts2112

[waldopepper42]

DaveW,

The list is out of date. There is at least one other in the 2-seat category (though well over the budget for this thread) - Vabs RV-8. :ok:

[Confabulous]

Thanks guys, the Rans S10 seems like the best available secondhand a/c with a very good history, although I've heard a few voices of dissent in the past - more like a lawnmower then an aircraft, uglier then my mother-in-law etc. But judging by a recent drove of Rotax fuel consumption and maintenance threads it's cheap to run and maintain and seems reasonably challenging to fly, essential if I'm to build up reasonable skill. My goal is a Pitts, but one thing crops up about the S1C/S - they're very cheap for their capabilities - why? :E

[18greens]

but one thing crops up about the S1C/S - they're very cheap for their capabilities - why? :E

They are the bargain of the century. A quarter share can be had for less then £10K and the hourly rate isn't too bad if you do your own maintenance. You have to jump a long way to get better perfomance. Yak 52s are pretty cheap too for what you get.

[Pitts2112]

My goal is a Pitts, but one thing crops up about the S1C/S - they're very cheap for their capabilities - why? :E

Nothing sinister, if that's what you're after. A good -S will run you about £35-40K. C models are cheaper because they typically have a smaller engine and only two ailerons so their perfomance is less than an S or D. Still spritely, though, and will take quite a while to outgrow. Also the S has symmetrical wings which brings some advantages like better inverted performance but some disadvantages such as greater drag.

They're all homebuilt so can be of varied quality and fit out, plus some are quite old so you can get quite a wide variety of condition. Overall, though, a Pitts is a good machine to have. Lots and lots of bang for the buck!

Pitts2112

[Zulu Alpha]

You might want to consider going straight to the Pitts (or a share in one). Buying and selling aircraft always takes time and expense. Its best to get one that you won't grow out of too soon. All the other aircraft mentioned will do aerobatics but are quite limited in aerobatic performance.
Despite being a confirmed monoplane pilot I would recomend a single seat Pitts as a great aerobatic starter machine. Excellent value for money, slghtly tricky to land. You will need to get a tailwheel sign off and probably 5 hrs dual in a 2 seat Pitts.
There are always some for sale on the BAeA wbsite.
http://www.aerobatics.org.uk/aircraft+eqpt-for-sale.htm
Good luck

[ronnie3585]

Hi Con, where do you plan to operate your aircraft out of?
Have you found an instructor?

[DaveW]

DaveW, The list is out of date.

There was me thinking that if anyone would know it would be the PFA :}

Good to hear that the RV-8 makes the list - now, what about the other RVs that can aerobat quite happily elsewhere in the world :confused:

[Confabulous]

Hi Con, where do you plan to operate your aircraft out of?
Have you found an instructor?

Bit early for that yet Ronnie, need to finish the PPL first :}

There's a fair chance I'll move to the UK, both for a better job and to get a chance of decent hangarage, training and aircraft - at least in the UK there's a much better GA scene, more support and more airfields. Anyone who doubts it is invited over for a look - the UK is heaven compared to Ireland in that respect.

That said, I'm getting quite excited about some of the EASA sub-1000kg proposals - should make our lives a lot easier, sort of a Europewide PFA, very similar to the FAA/EAA system.

[javelin]

Be cautious about an S10 - they are a strange, strange beast !

PM me for more info if you wish !

[Them thar hills]

Jav
There are plenty of other equally strange "beasts", some downright unfriendly.
Do tell more !
D

[Confabulous]

Agree with themdarhills, tell us all exactly what the problem is!

[sir.pratt]

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Aircraft/auction-71546992.htm

can't take your mates in it though!!

the thing with the S1 is that mostly they are 0320 powered, and fixed prop, whereas the S2 can have up to an O540 at 300hp in it, with CSU, and is frankly a piston powered jet fighter!

[Pitts2112]

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Aircraft/auction-71546992.htm
can't take your mates in it though!!
the thing with the S1 is that mostly they are 0320 powered, and fixed prop, whereas the S2 can have up to an O540 at 300hp in it, with CSU, and is frankly a piston powered jet fighter!

Close, Sir P, but not quite accurate.

Most S-1s you find are Ds or Ss, both with some variation of the O-360 and fixed pitch prop. The prop can make a huge difference. I've got an MT 63" pitch on mine and it goes like stink. Mate had a 61" pitch and it was noticeably slower.

The most common S-2 is the S-2A with a 200hp O-360 and, in some peoples' minds, is the best of the S-2 bunch. The S-2B and C have 260 hp O-540s but are much bigger and heavier beasts. Each has it's pros and cons. (I think I'm right on the S-2C but could be wrong on that one).

The only 300hp Pitts I know of is the S-1-11, the single seat Super Stinker. Goes like a bat out of hell but, according to reports, doesn't actually aerobat any better than an S-1T or and S-2B (though I haven't been able to prove that myself)

I'd be a bit weary of taking on a Pitts without a decent amount of tailwheel time (and I mean in the circuit, not trundling cross country), but then I could just be a wuss. I had 150 hours tailwheel, mostly in the circuit, before I got into a Pitts and I was ready for, but still struck by, the Fred Astair routine on landing.

Pitts2112

[Genghis the Engineer]

In general terms, there's a lot to be said for buying a share anyhow. Firstly you get more aeroplane for your money, secondly you are sharing the group with people who have more experience and you can learn from.

G

[Confabulous]

I suppose I could start a G-reg PFA Pitts group in Ireland... but not for a year or two.

[Darth_Bovine]

Where abouts in Ireland are you? You can PM me if you're too shy to discolse your location. :)

[Confabulous]

Darth Bovine, I'm in Dublin.

I wonder how many would be interested in a group based around an S1D or S1S? They'd need a few hours taildragger time, aeros training (AOPA certificate maybe) and a few hours dual in an S2A/B/C with an instructor. Like I said, it'd be a year or two yet.

[Darth_Bovine]

Darth Bovine, I'm in Dublin.

You fly outta Weston? Flew in there once.. was dissapointed they didn't have Guinness! In fact, IIRC they had no beer!! :ugh:

Dublin would probably be a stretch for me to travel to a group, unless my circumstances changed.