View Full Version : Data Link at LHR
Sean Dell
1st Oct 2006, 07:52
Was talking to my neighbour recently. He told me that he had written a feasability study paper into the use of Data Link (ACARS PDC) a few years back and was most suprised to hear that it was still not being used at LHR. Is there any plans afoot to redress this situation?
Apparently it was/is trialled at LGW
Cheers
Sean
AFAIK it will be used when we go to the new tower. Officially 12th Jan.
Will the ATCOs get any training on this new system? Or will it be briefing by paper?
Your guess is as good as mine, mate!
Chip Dyson
1st Oct 2006, 11:18
It should be available when the new tower is operational next year. Being used at EGSS and EGKK already, using EFPS as the interface.
choclit runway
1st Oct 2006, 15:27
Will the ATCOs get any training on this new system? Or will it be briefing by paper?
You will not need any my man. With EFPS you will need to be shown once and unless you are a complete fu@*-knuckle will have it down to a tee... If all goes wrong... 'revert to voice' button does the trick!
Once you've done it a few times (with a/c whose drivers know what they are doing), you will wonder why it wasn't introduced years ago.
Cheers folks.
PS, Technology 'ay?:ok:
Giles Wembley-Hogg
1st Oct 2006, 16:24
How will the "P" in GMP work with the datalink clearance at Heathrow? At some other places the clearance is obtained and acknowledged by ACARS (whether or not we are "ready") and the next call is to GMC. I guess you'll want us to read back the clearance to Delivery when we are actually ready and then the planning will occur?
I think GMP could become a really interesting seat to sit in on a snowy day with T5 open and a score of pilots holding datalink clearances, looking at a long taxi with a rapidly expiring holdover time all wanting to know why they can't start NOW as they've already got their clearance!
G W-H
GWH,
I may be completely wrong on this, but I think the idea is still to call GMP when ready, even though you might have already got the clearance through ACARS.
Giles Wembley-Hogg
1st Oct 2006, 16:54
Thanks Gonzo. That's probably the best way of running the system for both parties.
G W-H
Agreed. Anything we can do to decrease the R/T loading on GMP when it's busy is A Good Thing.
Giles Wembley-Hogg
1st Oct 2006, 17:01
Thanks Gonzo. That's probably the best way of running the system for both parties.
G W-H
throw a dyce
1st Oct 2006, 22:26
Hong Kong introduced Data Link in about 2000 to Cathy,Dragonair and Air HongKong.It worked well and the clearance was readback on CDC (GMP), when the a/c were ready.It was only after that that the bad news about flow restrictions was given.There were no Europe style slot times.CDC worked out the delays.It cut down r/t a lot,and was just a simple computer terminal.No EFPS either.I would have thought LL might have had it sooner.;)
PS the training was simple,only took 30 mins.
Clearly you don't know LL!! :p
choclit runway
2nd Oct 2006, 12:05
GWH,
I may be completely wrong on this, but I think the idea is still to call GMP when ready, even though you might have already got the clearance through ACARS.
You are quite correct sir.
Some of you are missing the point. EFPS, there is a specific datalink bay. An a/c, by technological wizardry beyond my moth like brains comprehension, sends a magic message to our little database which informs us heshe is ready for clearence along with all the usual appropriate data (a/c type bla bla bla). You respond by populating the neccessary clearance fields (as you will with all types of clearance on efps) and send it back to the a/c. If heshe acknowledges the clearance correctly the 'strip' will automatically moves to the 'cleared' bay and then you continue as you would with any other a/c (good 'ole voice comms).
If anything goes wrong anywhere along the line a simple 'revert to voice' msg is sent to MrMrsMiss Pilot.
I.E... all you are cutting out is the actual action of reading the clearance to a pilot and having himher repeat it, et voila, the point of the excercise... Saving RT time.
I also discovered you can be talking to one pilot giving a voice clearance whilst at the same time sending one to another a/c by datalink... Genious.
Fear not chaps, its a great system! (and I am in no way management or taking a back hander from datalink).
Ciao.
Choclit runway, I don't think anyone is missing the point. We're now 2/3 the way through our training and it hasn't even been mentioned yet, regardless of the fact that it seems straightforward to operate. Just like the Supervisor's layout.:ugh:
choclit runway
2nd Oct 2006, 13:04
Gonzo.
I take your point. Usual comms hey?
It should have been mentioned (if only to assure you that adequate training will be given), but you really will only need a miniscule amount.
I know the transition from paper to screen (going off on a tangent here) is slightly daunting but of all the controllers I know, very few would return to paper. At the risk of infuriating some ATSA's now (of which some are massively underestimated/utilised), on the days when you get an unhelpful/moody/tired/disinterested one, delivery (in times of fog/delays etc etc etc) can be made a bigger nightmare than it already is. That goes out the window with EFPS. The task is simplified (as EFPS is meant to do).
I will emphasize now that I am not making this an anti-atsa thread or management/training bashing thread.
To emphasise my initial response... Should have been at least demo'd to you by now.
Ta Ta
PS Anyone operating EFPS Disagree? I know it's along way from perfection but would anyone go back? Personally found it easier after only a week or so of it being live.
throw a dyce
2nd Oct 2006, 13:58
Clearly you don't know LL!! :p
Yeah whatever.At least I've worked a Data-Link system and agree with Choclit Runway.Mind you when LL eventually get it,Nats and LL will ''Be leading the world'' Again.:zzz:
Yeah whatever.At least I've worked a Data-Link system and agree with Choclit Runway.Mind you when LL eventually get it,Nats and LL will ''Be leading the world'' Again.:zzz:
Er no dig was meant there. Gonzo was merely pointing out situation normal at LHR where the coalface workers are the last to hear about such things.
Scott Voigt
2nd Oct 2006, 17:22
WARNING - WARNING - WARNING !!!!!!
Not so much for the tower folks when this goes into effect, but the Center folks and to a lesser extent the approach folks..
We have found over the years that some crews who are not real proficient at reading the clearances over ACARs sometimes get them WRONG... They look at it incorrectly and program what was filed vrs. what was spit out by the host computer. They then tend to go where you aren't expecting them too and it causes heart palpitations <G>... Careful out there...
Yep, sorry Dyce, the ''Clearly you don't know LL' was aimed at...
thought LL might have had it sooner.;)
And I'm now assured that our gallant Training Dept. have things in hand.
Aparrently I had been informed of the plans to train on the Sup's layout and DCL, but knowing me then it went in one ear and out the other. I humbly apologise to LL Training, I'm sure they know where my real beef with the whole thing lies. :rolleyes:
Silk Merchant
2nd Oct 2006, 22:30
Gonzo et al,
I was told (by a reliable source) that we at Heathrow get trained on PDCS in the level 5 SIM run. Level 5 involves four different seats, one of which is GMP. So we all get circa 45 minutes of GMP, with a mixture of PDCS and "old fashioned" clearance delivery - in November! So the next time you do it will be with real aeroplanes after 'O' date. I am not convinced I will remember what to do two months later, so the (re)learning curve will be quite steep.
"Revert to voice"
SM
Scott, what you say is undoubtedly true, but I don't think it's confined to ACARS clearances. Just because I read back a clearance correctly over the RT doesn't mean that it's what I've put in the box, unfortunately...... :( And I do think you Yanks could improve the layout of your PDCs a bit, the squawk code is awfully hard to find, buried in amongst a whole bunch of other 4 digit numbers. The number of times I've tried to squawk my STD....
BTW, did I read one of the other posts above correctly? Are we actually going to be able to acknowledge the PDC electronically at LHR, without having to read it back, have it acknowledged, acknowledge the acknowledgement etc. Good heavens, such sensible thinking, what is the world coming to? But gadzooks man, we don't do things that way in the UK, next thing we know you'll be allowed to clear us for the ILS without first wasting RT time by clearing us for the loc, us reporting established on the loc, you clearing us down the slope, us acknowledging that clearance etc etc..... :) :) ;)
surfingatco
5th Oct 2006, 10:43
next thing we know you'll be allowed to clear us for the ILS without first wasting RT time by clearing us for the loc, us reporting established on the loc, you clearing us down the slope, us acknowledging that clearance etc etc.....
I'd love to say "Cleared ILS" tomorrow if it meant "don't descend to 2500ft below the glide path and hit the low level traffic working Thames" and it was understood by all nationalities of pilots. RT saving would be immense on a busy frequency. "When established localiser descend on the ILS", introduced a while ago, is a bit of a mouthful and gets varying responses!
One of the problems with "cleared ILS" is that you could still be at 4000ft on the closing heading with City traffic at 3000ft. When do you descend to if I say "Cleared ILS?
Finally, in answer to your point about all the acknowledgements, missed readbacks are a major cause of incidents in ATC, and we're to blame (mostly) if we get it wrong - that's why we need the (correct) acknowledgement :)
Edited for spooling mistakes :)