Advice on buying a B206 and leaseback schemes

[Kopterman]

After recently completing my ATPL(H) exams and taking into account the difficulty faced with finding employment, I am looking at buying a Jetranger for around the £200k mark. I would be very grateful to anyone who could offer any help or guidance on where to purchase, what type to go for, or avoid and things to look out for? (For example, I'm told that parts for the older Augusta Bells can be harder to find)!

Obviously, I would have a full inspection carried out beforehand showing time remaining on all components (and this is probably a requirement to get true valuation and secure any finance)!

Once I've secured the purchase I'm told that I can register the a/c on somebodys AOC under a leaseback scheme getting around £220-£260 per hour that it is used. I'm also hoping to finish my hr building (approx 40hrs) until I do my CPL(H) course and then hopefully do some paid work as the owner, under the AOC of a Company/School, if this is realistic?

Summary Plan
Buy own a/c to do hr building upto CPL
Register on AOC under leaseback & hopefullly cover costs
Gain employment after CPL on own a/c
Hopefully get 300 to 500 hrs annual usage on leaseback

All help and advice appreciated, including recommendations for websites, contacts, books or software etc.

Many thanks in advance,

Kopterman :D

[paco]

Just a question - if you've got that kind of money, why do you want to work as a pilot?

Phil

[BH06]

Hi there Kopterman...

You on the right track, I've done EXACTLY that, but in South Africa. Instead of hiring someone elses helicopter, and paying their helicopter off by the bank, I bought myself a Jetranger for hour building towards my CPL. I have it on a lease to a charter co. and I fly when its on the ground... ;)

Must admit that you must look for GOOD component times especially turbine and blades. Other than that I hope you have spare cash for the rainy days THAT can be expensive! :ooh:

Find yourself a good AMO one you can trust since some of these guys can be sharks, I must admit I have a great AMO that I can REALY trust, after all it's your life they playing with!!!

Should you have any further questions private message or email me...

GOOD LUCK
:8

[Southern Cross]

Usually a few 206's in the price range you are looking at in: http://helidata.rotor.com Follow the links to the online sales page.

And no, I am not connnected with nor paid by that publication.

[Kopterman]

Just a question - if you've got that kind of money, why do you want to work as a pilot?
Phil

Phil,

If you recall, I did in fact make reference to organizing 'finance'! I have around £40k to put down as a deposit.
For me, there's no correlation between money & happiness, particularly where flying is concerned...I've yet to meet anyone who became a Helicopter pilot, simply for the money?

Kind Regards,

Kopterman

[nigelh]

You make some incorrect assumptions

1) No AOC is going to allow you as a low time pilot to stooge around in your machine on their ticket.
2) No AOC is going to deliver that no of hrs flying...they may promise but they will not deliver...period. The only way to get that no of hrs is a pipe or power line contract and the rate is very low and the a/c will not be available to you.
3) Can you pay the bill when after 50 hrs the engineers tell you you need a thingy which is £35,000 ? If not you will be selling your £200,000 machine for £120,000. Dont forget that insurance and basic maintenance will cost you circa £20,000 p.a and there will probably be costs going onto their AOC and you may have to let them flt X hrs to keep their pilots checked and up to date.

4) The Agusta Bell is generally a lot cheaper to run due to there being spare parts available at 50% or more discount to Bell prices. ( Airandground being just one company that have loads of cheap parts ) Also you can fit Bell to Agusta and Agusta to Bell , it is only forbidden in the USA and Canada. Most old Bells will have various Agusta parts on them .

Sorry to be a killjoy but if it were that simple everybody with 40k would be doing it . IF YOU CANT AFFORD IT DONT BUY IT !!!!! If i were you i would lease a 300 and get an instructor to do some training on it...MUCH better than an R22 or go to the states and hour build maybe as an instructor.
anyway good luck !!!!!:ok:

[helicopter-redeye]

Your profile says your license type is ATPL(H).

Why do you need to build hours for a (lesser) CPL?

[Kopterman]

Your profile says your license type is ATPL(H).
Why do you need to build hours for a (lesser) CPL?

Perhaps I should have stated 'ATPL(H) Theory exams x 13'.

PPL(H) + ATPL(H) Theory + CPL(H) course = CPL(H) + Frozen ATPL(H)

CPL(H) course requires min 155hrs plus course of 30hrs = 185hrs

Regards,

Kopterman

[VeeAny]

Kopter

Nigelh has a pretty good handle on it, however exercise caution when assuming that Also you can fit Bell to Agusta and Agusta to Bell , it is only forbidden in the USA and Canada

He is quite right that most old Bells have some Agusta parts on them, but as these two links imply its not quite a simple as if fits it'll do.

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/536/LTO2539.pdf#search=%22bell%20parts%20agusta%20bell%22
http://www.bellcustomer.com/files/Storage/IL_GEN-99-65_Rev_A.pdf

I am not an engineer, but I know of at least one maintenance company who are taking Agusta bits off Bells in their care. And a number of others who are exercising extreme caution near Bells with Agusta parts on.

Also don't just assume that non profit flights need to be given away to the operator, its your machine at the end of the day if someone needs it then they should pay for it, maybe a reduced rate but why for free. If they don't need it and are doing you a favour operating it and recouping some cash for you then perhaps line checks etc get done for free, but that's a personal choice, not the norm.

Paco raises a valid question, why do you want to do this ? I did what you are suggesting on a smaller scale with an R22, it did work, but you will probably end up getting paid less and having a lot more fun at work (unless you're a pornstar)

V.

[Kopterman]

You make some incorrect assumptions
1) No AOC is going to allow you as a low time pilot to stooge around in your machine on their ticket.
2) No AOC is going to deliver that no of hrs flying...they may promise but they will not deliver...period. The only way to get that no of hrs is a pipe or power line contract and the rate is very low and the a/c will not be available to you.
3) Can you pay the bill when after 50 hrs the engineers tell you you need a thingy which is £35,000 ? If not you will be selling your £200,000 machine for £120,000. Dont forget that insurance and basic maintenance will cost you circa £20,000 p.a and there will probably be costs going onto their AOC and you may have to let them flt X hrs to keep their pilots checked and up to date.
4) The Agusta Bell is generally a lot cheaper to run due to there being spare parts available at 50% or more discount to Bell prices. ( Airandground being just one company that have loads of cheap parts ) Also you can fit Bell to Agusta and Agusta to Bell , it is only forbidden in the USA and Canada. Most old Bells will have various Agusta parts on them .
Sorry to be a killjoy but if it were that simple everybody with 40k would be doing it . IF YOU CANT AFFORD IT DONT BUY IT !!!!! If i were you i would lease a 300 and get an instructor to do some training on it...MUCH better than an R22 or go to the states and hour build maybe as an instructor.
anyway good luck !!!!!:ok:

Many thanks for your response and this is exactly why I'm very dubious about buying an A/c. As there's a lot of 'snake oil' in this industry and much conflicting advice, I'm going to carry out my own research and go from there.
If I had to pay the going rate to do my hr building, I wouldn't have much change from the £40k and little chance of findong a job. At least if I buy a machine it will hopefully reduce the cost of my flying. I'm sure that if I got around 200hrs paid commercial work within a 12month period it would more than cover itself & allow me to hr build at a minimal cost. (Is £260/hr leaseback a realistic sum)? If so, that's £52k income minus hangarage, insurance, maintenance, finance etc I'd estimate that to be around a break-even mark and with some luck, enough for a contingency pot.


In response to your comments:-

1/ Are you saying that I would not be allowed under any circumstance to work as a fully qualified (albeit low time) pilot? Is this due to the restrictions on the insurance or because of the potential 'risk factor'?
I have been told by a Company that I would be able to get some paid work on my own machine, on their AOC?
2/ I'm trying to negotiate a guarenteed number of hrs & I know that they have a desperate shortage of A/c & are continually turning down work! (They have done approx. 250hrs in the past 7 months in a friends 206).
3/ I'm told that when you buy an A/c you can quite accurately forecast component times/costs. As long as you build up a large contingency fund I'm told it's quite a safe bet! Would your insurance or maintenance contract not cover any large unexpected components?
4/ It's easy to say 'if you can't afford it, don't buy it' the trouble is etsablishing if I can afford it or not? What are the likely returns on a 300/hr?

Many thanks in advance,

Kopterman :ugh:

[Kopterman]

Kopter

Nigelh has a pretty good handle on it, however exercise caution when assuming that

He is quite right that most old Bells have some Agusta parts on them, but as these two links imply its not quite a simple as if fits it'll do.

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/536/LTO2539.pdf#search=%22bell%20parts%20agusta%20bell%22
http://www.bellcustomer.com/files/Storage/IL_GEN-99-65_Rev_A.pdf

I am not an engineer, but I know of at least one maintenance company who are taking Agusta bits off Bells in their care. And a number of others who are exercising extreme caution near Bells with Agusta parts on.

Also don't just assume that non profit flights need to be given away to the operator, its your machine at the end of the day if someone needs it then they should pay for it, maybe a reduced rate but why for free. If they don't need it and are doing you a favour operating it and recouping some cash for you then perhaps line checks etc get done for free, but that's a personal choice, not the norm.

Paco raises a valid question, why do you want to do this ? I did what you are suggesting on a smaller scale with an R22, it did work, but you will probably end up getting paid less and having a lot more fun at work (unless you're a pornstar)

V.

Thanks for your input...what 206 model would you opt for or perhaps avoid, if any?

I certainly wouldn't allow any flying to be done for free and a contract would include all the associated costs/fees. Why would a private owner pay towards a Companies overheads in keeping their pilots current anyway!! (It would be like renting out a property & allowing the management agent to stay there the odd weekend for free).

My whole reasoning behind this, is that I have a ppl & atpl theory with about 110hrs tt and would eventually like to get into paid commercial work. (I'm still not convinced about being an Instructor though)?
There are several ways in which I could achieve this and each way will have it's own pros & cons. However, I feel that buying a helicopter on leaseback seems to be the the most efficient and exciting way so far!
As long as I source the right helicopter and find a good AOC, it should hopefully pay for itself and allow me to build up a lot more hrs then I would normally be able to afford or want to pay for. I'm also hoping that because of my limited hours it might allow me a better chance to do some paid work when I've completed the Cpl(H). Please tell me if I'm missing anything here?

Thanks in advance,

KM

[paco]

There seems to be no reference to 'organising finance' - your original post implied that you had 200K to play with, but never mind!

There may be other ways you can do this without actually buying a machine. A friend of mine in Canada started his own pleasure flying business which, after 1 year, was regularly asked back to every major city and loads of smaller ones - in the end he had two other low-timers working with him and he ended up with 1000 hours after two years, plus a pile of cash in his pocket. He didn't buy a machine, but borrowed one and had an arrangement with one or two companies to work under their AOCs - I was the Chief Pilot of one of them, and it worked very well. In the UK, we used to follow the steam rallies.

Maybe you could be as creative, but a word of warning if you lend your machine to a company - make sure you get the same bits on it when you get it back! Many pilots who worked for Northern Mountain in Canada had their own machines and when the company was in financial difficulties and they needed spares, their machines got robbed and they were returned minus tail rotors, etc. It is all too easy to change serial numbers on many aircraft parts.

Good Luck.

Phil

[nigelh]

If you have to go AB and at least have half price parts. Oh, and when you go to start in the morning just pray you dont get a crunching noise and lots of smoke as it could be the sound of $100,000 dribbling away !!!! ( but if it does happen give me a call as i am looking for a cheap AB 206 without an engine !!!):ok:

[Camp Freddie]

hey kopterman,

if you have a CPL and your low time, as soon as you have 250 hours get yourself an instructor rating.

1) you will find work when you have passed it
2) it is good experience
3) you will get paid £40 p.h approx
4)it is a low risk strategy
5)when you have 1000 hours or so people will take you seriously to do some VFR charter.

your plan with the 206 sounds like a cracking way to go broke fast to me.
if I were an AOC holder, there is no way I would let a 200 hour novice fly my passengers around (even if it was his aircraft, they are my passengers). I dont think you realise what a huge difference experience makes.

regards

CF

[Kopterman]

hey kopterman,
if you have a CPL and your low time, as soon as you have 250 hours get yourself an instructor rating.
1) you will find work when you have passed it
2) it is good experience
3) you will get paid £40 p.h approx
4)it is a low risk strategy
5)when you have 1000 hours or so people will take you seriously to do some VFR charter.
your plan with the 206 sounds like a cracking way to go broke fast to me.
if I were an AOC holder, there is no way I would let a 200 hour novice fly my passengers around (even if it was his aircraft, they are my passengers). I dont think you realise what a huge difference experience makes.
regards
CF


Thanks for your comments...Why does helicopter ownership/leaseback mean that I would neccessarily go broke? It must work for some people otherwise nobody would do it. In my very limited experience, it seems that lots of Companies/Schools operate through leaseback schemes rather than owning their own aircraft!

Why is it that after 250hrs (plus QFI) you are deemed experienced enough to take paying passengers and teach them how to fly but anything less than 1000hrs you are not experienced to take them from A to B? Surely teaching a student how to fly carries far more risk? A little inconsistant me thinks!!

KM

[VeeAny]

KM

Buying and leasing back doesn't mean you'll go broke, but if it ends up being your sole source of income then the odds are not stacked in your favour.

You are quite correct that there is an inconsistency in that inexperienced pilots teach even more inexperienced students, it is almost farcical. That is however what happens at the bottom of the food chain and we all have to start somewhere. Many pilots (myself included) would not have got a break if it were not for instructing first.

As far as experience goes consider this , as an inexperienced pilot if the weather is a little iffy students won't necessarily learn a great deal from going flying so cancellation is the right thing to do. Now look at a commercial job with 5hrs revenue in one days flying, cloudbase is 900ft vis is 4km , would you want a 250hr CPL either cancelling the job which a more exeriencd pilot might do quite safely or worse taking the job on and having an accident.

And before anyone gets the hump I DO NOT mean that 250hr CPLs can't do anything I am merely illustrating a point.

Very off thread but attempting to answer your questions.

V.

[Camp Freddie]

hey Kopterman,

I concur with VeeAny, when the weather starts to crap out on your cross country charter which was fine in the morning, but now your on your way back and its not long till it gets dark and the cloud is coming down and the ground is going up and the vis is dropping and you got a family in the back who have no intention of spending the night in wales or wherever the hell you are, you become with 200 hours and commercial pressure an accident waiting to happen.

Instructing is different, sure you have the problem that the student might kill you by yanking the lever up when he should be lowering it, but you dont have the problem of trying to cover long distances cross country in crap weather. you have the luxury of telling the student that its not suitable when you dont fancy it and it doesnt cause a problem. in my opinion VFR charter can be very hard, because when it gets tough you run out of options.

re the reference to going broke, to clarify I think you are far too optimistic about the hours you will do and the amount of income. If you could make money so easily by buying an aircraft and leasing it back everybody would be doing it. most of the people who own helicopters can afford to do so and do not need to make money. if you cant afford to run it without leasing back I think you are ill advised to buy it in the first place.

anyhow if you buy it, good luck with your purchase

regards

CF

[Arm out the window]

Camp Freddie - I haven't owned a helicopter, so can't speak with authority, but saying that most people who own helicopters don't need to make money isn't right - a working helicopter can and should make money, as many do.
I guess you're referring to private owners.
Like any business proposition, if Kopterman can buy a machine, get it on line working and make more than it costs him to own and operate, well and good, as long as his cash flow and reserves are sufficient to cope with the big expenses like major component overhauls, insurance, coping with an accident, say, where it's on the ground for a long time being fixed and generating no income - obviously not for the faint hearted, or the shoestring budget.

[nigelh]

Instructors have always been at the bottom of the food chain, especially in the states. I think a family going from a to b will be expecting a high level of experience whereas the student will know very well the experience of his instructor and can , if he wishes, change to a more experienced one or just a different school. There is no way with 250 hrs you have the experience ,when faced with bad weather, to crawl under at 300ft ( yes it is legal over hills etc) or even go on top or maybe turn back.
As for making money , i do not know of one owner who makes money from an AOC , he may reduce his costs but will not make a profit in the long term. The reason AOC,s use these helicopters is because it is CHEAPER than owning their own and there is always some rich twit who thinks he can fly for nothing !!! The old adage if it flies, floats or f***s rent it is so true !!!!!!!!!!:ok:

[paco]

"There is no way with 250 hrs you have the experience ,when faced with bad weather, to crawl under at 300ft ..."

I was doing just that, with missiles on the side in Western Germany, with 200 hours! However, I do take your point - at least we had no commercial pressure.

Having been involved with at least 15 helicopter startups, I have always advised my clients that, if they cannot afford to pay for anything to do with helicoptering up front, don't do it. If you have to pay as you go along, you will always lose money. Part of the reason for being successful on a shoestring is timing, which you can never guarantee.

Phil

[Chimbu chuckles]

Kopterman ask yourself why many charter companies lease aircraft from people such as yourself instead of buying them or leasing them from a leasing company.

Don't get me wrong these arrangements can work...but it is VASTLY more likely to be the case that you're subsidising the AOC holder than the other way around.

In owning an aircraft you have;

1/. Fixed costs. (hangarage/insurance/capital costs /GPS database updates and components that require overhaul/replacement based on date, etc) They are called fixed because they don't vary whether the aircraft flies or not.

2/. Direct Operating Costs. Which are exactly that...fuel/oil and components that require overhaul/replacement based on time in service.

Annual utilisation is the biggest factor in what a machine actually costs/hr to run overall...DOCs are the smaller component on low utilisation and the larger number on high utilisation.

As just one example of where you can be bitten by cost blow outs have a think about the turbine engine. They might have 3000 hrs TBO...but they also have a date limitation of 10 yrs. The next pilot who buys a turbine engined aircraft with '1000' hrs left to run until TBO who then finds 3 or 12 mths/200hrs later he has a 100k bill looming for a hot section inspection won't be the first.

Often a charter company will own or lease (from a commercial leasing company) a few of their machines and the remainder are leasebacks from private individuals. Your machine will fly only when their machines are already busy elsewhere. When their machines don't fly they have fixed costs to cover...when your machine doesn't fly the fixed costs are your problem not theirs.

One way to attack the problem would be a lease contract based on a fixed amount/mth which covers an agreed % of your fixed costs + an hourly rate covering DOCs. This ensures they are motivated to use your aircraft as the more often it flies the cheaper it is for [B]THEM to operate/hr (which is the case with their own machines) and you are protected to some extent.

Your exposure under this arrangment would be limited to maintenance issues...things like an annual/100hrly inspection that blows out from the 5k you budget to 7,8,9 or 10k because of various unforeseen issues like a damaged main or tail rotor blade, components worn beyond limits, corrosion control, fried radio, AD compliance, etc....this is VERY common.

The problem with such an arrangment is the AOC holder will quite rightly suggest that any use of the aircraft by you limits their ability to use it and as such they will not enter into such an agreement...similarly with a 'guaranteed mthly hrs' arrangement...they just won't be interested because it would mean they risk leaving one of their aircraft on the ground to use yours.

Of course if you can find a company that will enter into such a contract and still let you fly your machine go for it.

I would be prepared to bet folding money you will NOT find such a charter company.

[Pandalet]

On a similar note, and more out of curiosity than anything else, what's involved in getting an AOC (besides oodles and oodles of cash)?

[Twiddle]

On a similar note, and more out of curiosity than anything else, what's involved in getting an AOC (besides oodles and oodles of cash)?

Oodles and oodles of documentation and compliance.....

[paco]

Pandalet - the cost of an AOC would be around 20K, including the application fee and paying someone like me for the ops manual and other documentation, plus training for pilots, etc. and sundries like printing.

However, it does take some time and it can be restrictive. Under JAR OPs rules you can do a lot before you need one.

The cost of actually running a company, however - now that's quite different!

Phil

[Pandalet]

However, it does take some time and it can be restrictive. Under JAR OPs rules you can do a lot before you need one.


What sort of things could an individual who owned their own aircraft do without requiring an AOC? Besides flying themselves around, obviously...

[Bravo73]

Pandalet,

Try asking Hughes500

:E





But, essentially, anything that doesn't involve paying passengers/cargo. eg training or 'aerial work' (such as photography etc)

[paco]

Pandalet:

Aerial work is (from JAR OPS in Plain English)

Where an aircraft is used for specialised services such as agriculture, construction, photography, surveying, observation and patrol, search and rescue, aerial advertising, etc. In other words, not carrying passengers in the normal fare-paying sense, although "essential persons" may be carried, actually up to 6 indispensible people, excluding crew.

"etc" is actually in the JAR OPS definition, so I would suggest that anything you do that is not simply taking passengers from A to B is fair game for not requiring an AOC.

Phil

[nigelh]

Why bother with all the B*****ks from the campaign against aviation (CAA)
it will only turn you into a dribbling idiot with all the rules written by suits who have no idea of the real world........oh my god !!!....the CAA are even getting to me ...i havent had my checkride on my computor this month and still have to do my fire drill in case it goes up in smoke....and oh NO ...i havent notified the authorities that i moved the plug to an area of the room that has not been inspected by a CAA inspector yet because he was here checking that the cable was the specified colour. Sadly i have to get off my computor now because the CAA has decided my seat is not the correct hight for the type of work i am doing and in any event as this is PUBLIC typing , and not private, i cannot use this computor as it is not wide enough...or is it too wide...anyway i am now going to do my new rating which covers me for ALL computors , unless they are black , in which case it has to be a different CAA examiner who can do that checkride. I would go to bed now but sadly the distance between my chair and the door is no longer legal , i now need a safe distance so that if i dont have the power to make it up ....i can settle back safely into the seat i lifted from.....keep your flights private and lease.:ugh:

[rknocks]

Makes sense to try and get to the bottom of this before making a decision; you're right about there being no correlation between money and happiness.

Have you considered going to the military to fly? It would certainly be cheaper than paying for it yourself and you will gain experience that no amount of hours' building commercially or otherwise could replicate; the only problem you will have if you can take this route is the fact that you will eventually have to revert to the rediculously over regulated environment that we all know as commercial aviation in this country.

Good luck whatever you decide.

[13snoopy]

Forget lots of the negatives you read here. Some of it's from folks who will NEVER own a helicopter nor much of anything else, for that matter.
Talk to aircraft owners/aircraft companies and find out their opinions.
I own apartments, townhomes, commercial and other various real estate ventures and if I had listened to every "expert" who had never owned so much as one building then I'd still be poor. They always say it won't work!
(I didn't listen to them, thank God, and I ain't poor now)
Go talk to folks who are already doing what you seek to do. I own my own heli and wouldn't ever consider going back to leasing.
Again, every situation is different and I am not saying there aren't good opinions here, just talk to the folks who OWN and are doing what you seek to do. Their advice would be golden.
Best of luck to you and kudos for your spirit!!
PS
To everyone else here, I believe this fellow started this thread seeking advice on what type of Bell to purchace. Not business 101.

[Kopterman]

Forget lots of the negatives you read here. Some of it's from folks who will NEVER own a helicopter nor much of anything else, for that matter.
Talk to aircraft owners/aircraft companies and find out their opinions.
I own apartments, townhomes, commercial and other various real estate ventures and if I had listened to every "expert" who had never owned so much as one building then I'd still be poor. They always say it won't work!
(I didn't listen to them, thank God, and I ain't poor now)
Go talk to folks who are already doing what you seek to do. I own my own heli and wouldn't ever consider going back to leasing.
Again, every situation is different and I am not saying there aren't good opinions here, just talk to the folks who OWN and are doing what you seek to do. Their advice would be golden.
Best of luck to you and kudos for your spirit!!
PS
To everyone else here, I believe this fellow started this thread seeking advice on what type of Bell to purchace. Not business 101.

Hey 13Snoopy, thanks for your positive comments...you're right, some people have got a little side-tracked but all good stuff!

KM :)

[rotorspin]

agree with Kopterman

I own my own heli and have never looked back!! Go for it, and forget the idiots (most of which don't even own a copy of a computer Flight Sim let alone seen real life rotor blades)

Looking out of the window in the morning and knowing that if you want to you can fly, rather than hoping a machine is available is priceless!!!

Also, knowing the machine's history, serviceability and that some bloody idiot hasn't flown it before you is also priceless...

if you can make the sums work without breaking you, DO IT!!! You will never look back! :ok: ;)

[paco]

"I'm also hoping to finish my hr building (approx 40hrs) until I do my CPL(H) course and then hopefully do some paid work as the owner, under the AOC of a Company/School, if this is realistic?"

"All help and advice appreciated, including recommendations for websites, contacts, books or software etc."

Seems to me he did ask for Business 101, especially when he plans to do it with only 200K. Cashflow is King in this business, well, from this idiot's perspective anyway.

Phil

[Kopterman]

"I'm also hoping to finish my hr building (approx 40hrs) until I do my CPL(H) course and then hopefully do some paid work as the owner, under the AOC of a Company/School, if this is realistic?"
"All help and advice appreciated, including recommendations for websites, contacts, books or software etc."
Seems to me he did ask for Business 101, especially when he plans to do it with only 200K. Cashflow is King in this business, well, from this idiot's perspective anyway.
Phil

Phil - what I said, is that I was simply looking to buy one for around £200k and lease it back to a Company! It just so happens that somebody I know is selling their privately used one for around this price. You're implying that I'm looking to establish a formal business as well? I'm trying to ascertain from people in the know, what are the pros & cons of ownership/leaseback?

I think everyone knows that 'Cashflow' is critical to ANY business!

KM

[paco]

OK, then we seem to be at cross purposes! You would have to set up a formal business of some sort, though, because you would want it owned by a separate entity than the one operating it, for liability purposes. You would be very silly to own it personally. My comments (about cashflow, etc) were more towards other posters who seem to equate helicopters with property, because even for leaseback, 200K is not nearly enough. Well, not for a good jetbox, at least. I wouldn't want you to start on your project and fall flat on your face! Good luck whatever you do.

Phil

[Chimbu chuckles]

kopterman and rotorspin...my above post was based on being a current aircraft owner.:ok:

[nigelh]

In rotorspins case i think maybe an idiot was just flying it !!!:D
I have owned lots of helicopters and they have all caused me grief....lots of fun too....but at a hefty price. The difference is that even tho it hurt , i could easily afford it. The owners who are advising you are not trying to keep you out of ownership ..just out of trouble !!!! The last big bill i had was $300,000 for NON scheduled work ....closely followes by another $100,000 on an AS 350. Believe me you could get bitten .
As for a business, yes of course it has to be owned by a business which will cost you even more on accounts etc Only RICH idiots own helicopters (i do not include Robinsons as they are not really helicopters):ok: