View Full Version : Fun and Games at Scottish Air Ambulance (merged)
harpic
30th Sep 2006, 15:32
Several pilots leaving GAMA Scottish Air Ambulance Operation because the company are apparently “misinterpreting” the FTL Scheme and CAA Flight Ops are reported as "less than eager to correct the situation".
brain fade
30th Sep 2006, 15:37
My pal has put his notice in. As have a couple of others, for the reasons above.
Payday was Friday. Guess what? No wages!
Company have WITHELD his salary as he is still bonded.
Sounds like a fun place to work.:( :mad:
uncle dickie
30th Sep 2006, 18:07
Sounds a real fun place to work.
Interested to know the "spin" put on FTL scheme.
Golden oldies include a standby day being called a day off if not called out.
As for withholding salary during notice period - is this legal? Hardly encourages you to stay does it !!? Perhaps m'learned friends would like to express an opinion.
brain fade
30th Sep 2006, 19:37
They say that until he 'satisfies them' of how and when he'll repay the bond, then he has to keep working his notice but not get paid.
These guys are real cowboys. They make Loganair look like Mother Theresa!:ooh:
auctor ignotus
30th Sep 2006, 22:17
It's amazing what these companies think they can get away with...?
Maybe they're right...!!!! Maybe they can !
I'm still trying to get my mind round this Just because you don't put in writing exactly how you propose to pay back your bond (which is not due until you leave) they stop your pay!
Guess I wouldn't be turning up to work.
ComJam
30th Sep 2006, 23:11
Are any of the guys involved in BALPA?
These companies should not be able to shaft professional aircrew with impunity :mad:
Riverboat
30th Sep 2006, 23:50
Do any of you posters REALLY know GAMA? Or are you just making negative assumptions?
Well Riverboat......tell us how it is then.
Floppy Link
1st Oct 2006, 11:41
do the fixed wing ambulance guys work the so-called 4 on 4 off roster that the Glasgow and Inverness rotary ambulance drivers do?
"so-called" 'cos it's 2 days, 2 nights and the first of the 4 off has you finishing at 0730. Not much of a day off really.
californiakid
2nd Oct 2006, 16:21
Well for the uninitiated,The hours are .....
72,yes 72 hours of standby per week !
This is made up of 3 day shifts,3 night shifts,one rest and 2 off !!!!
The shift pattern is constant and can lead to many long shifts.
Lots of nasty things going on at Gama at present.Stealing holidays to use to cover required rostered days off, using retrospectively rest days as days off,complete and utter misuse and interpretation and calculation of cap 371, statutory 4 weeks holiday is non existant,pilots deliberately asked to work regularly over 55 cumulative hours in 7 days.........need I go on......the list does.
And yes 'riverboat' this is fact and we do know about this company!
Also after swallowing that lot ,crews are expected to show loyalty.
Disgusted.
bilderberger
2nd Oct 2006, 16:39
If only it was 4 on,4 off. Though it wouldn't make up for the rest of the sh-- that's going on in this place ! :(
It's 6 on ,1 rest and 2 off !!!!
fireman
2nd Oct 2006, 16:46
I did air ambulance years ago with Loganair. The endless standbys drove me mad. This was in the days before mobile phones - so you had to be near a telephone.
Its a shame that people are not happy at GAMA. I worked for them about 8 years ago flying there Kingairs and Lears, I always found that you were looked after very well. Far better than the airline I fly for now. Maybe they have changed?
As for withholding wages, don't think they are the only ones. If you leave the company I work for now and you are bonded your wages will be witheld until your bond is paid off. In fact it will be witheld until all your company property is returned, i.e. Uniform, books, ID, headsets etc. !!!!
Miles Magister
3rd Oct 2006, 21:31
I do not know GAMA but bear in mind that CAP 371 is not law, it is only guidance. Your company will write their own scheme in section 7 of the Ops manual. It is section 7 of your company ops manual which becomes law when the AOC is issued. The ANO is also law as is the European working times, civil aviation act. This act was bought into law recently and very quietly by the current government. It can be found here
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2004/20040756.htm
Buy one get one free
4th Oct 2006, 11:36
CHIRPS might be one avenue those affected might wish to explore.
SRG Gatwick will be contacted, and the FOI will be sent on an urgent mission.
BOGOF :ok:
bilderberger
4th Oct 2006, 13:49
Apparently SRG and FOI already know !:suspect:
californiakid
5th Oct 2006, 10:26
Apparently SRG and FOI already know !:suspect:
SO,what will happen now then..........I would imagine there are plenty watching closely on the outcome of this one !!
How do some companies manage to get away with this ?
:hmm:
On Finals
6th Oct 2006, 11:51
Guys leaving GLA have bent over backwards, tried everthing possible to point out the mistakes this company are making with regard to FTL's, working time regs, rostered days off, lost holiday entitlement, in other words driven at coach and horses ! The pilots are sick of braking the law. Gama is a one man band, judge, jury and executioner. After reading everthing else and getting the latest info from my pals at ABN, I saved myself the cost of a stamp by not posting my CV. Death benefit would possibly be discounted by a half.
Buy one get one free
7th Oct 2006, 07:01
The importance of reporting details through CHIRPS is that specific information can be given.
Otherwise the FOI will be looking for those needles in a haystack and there is every chance that he will find nothing of note.
So quoting chapter and verse is essential if you want matters to improve.
:ok: BOGOF
Flugtak
7th Oct 2006, 10:45
Guys leaving GLA have bent over backwards, .....
Were these the same guys that bent over backwards in the Western Isles last week when they "clocked off" for lunch and left an ambulance waiting at the airport with a patient onboard, thereby denying the island of their 999 response vehicle for an hour.
ray cosmic
7th Oct 2006, 11:06
Were these the same guys that bent over backwards in the Western Isles last week when they "clocked off" for lunch and left an ambulance waiting at the airport with a patient onboard, thereby denying the island of their 999 response vehicle for an hour.
For crew to do something like this, the only explanation I can think of is that the limit has been reached.
I can't imagine anyone doing this unless they are sincerely fed up and sick of the abuse. Remember the Onur Air where the Captain left?
If you don't say "stop" sometimes, the abuse will continue. If these guys were out of duty and would have crashed or even only had a mishap on the return flight it would have bein THEIR license and life on the line. NEVER expect a company to thank you after you broke the law in their favour. :=
Cover your @ss, that's all. They will do the same.:ok:
Flugtak
7th Oct 2006, 11:19
I don't think they were out of duty, this happened late morning and I think they will have started their standby around 7a.m. More likely due to being fed up with current situation I think. Maybe this sort of action is the only thing they will listen to down South.
Sounds to me like a fatigue break - full details of which will no doubt be laid out in their Part A Chapter7; and also in the ANO. Merely complying with company instructions to avoid fatigue.
I agree that better coordination with the ambulance vehicle crew would have helped.
bilderberger
7th Oct 2006, 17:02
As we have heard,the facts of that break were different to the guessing games that are going on here !
Well done the crew I say !!!
:ok:
B.
Roger Ram Jet
7th Oct 2006, 17:32
Gama has made what should be a very enjoyable job option into a truly arduous ordeal for all concerned in Scotland!!
The majority of pilots up there, including those already working notice, are by all accounts desperate to get out. This may unfortunately be difficult with Gama re-bonding pilots every year for recurrent training.
These guys have done so much to attempt to improve things but concerns are being dismissed. As On Finals said the "Judge, Jury and Executioner" seems to regard pilots or even employees in general as expendable.
Apalling all round really!
bilderberger
8th Oct 2006, 06:38
Yes,poor old Gamma,seem to be getting hammered on this and the 'biz jet' forum too !!!
Its becoming pretty damn clear now that things are very much amiss with this company !
Looks like their pilots are being permanently bonded and shackled to Gamma.These guys should have threatened to stop work,that would have got results till the hours business was sorted by their 'head in the sand' managers.Who are the guys running the show ? Why have they not sorted it ? Can't be doing their reputation any good !!!
B
Max Steel
8th Oct 2006, 08:27
Bring Back Loganair.:cool: Give the Kingairs to loganair and let them run the air ambulance service again:D
rocketfun
9th Oct 2006, 19:19
Company have WITHELD his salary as he is still bonded.
As far as I understand it the withdrawl of payment of salary is actually illegal, having been there myself in a previous time and had exactly the same. HTey paid my salary after an appropriate call from my soliciitor.
Any bond and salary are different issues.
Good luck
remoak
10th Oct 2006, 04:10
Not necessarily, as the pilot may have agreed to this when signing his bond (depending on how the bond is written). If you agree to the company witholding your salary whilst there is an oustanding bond, you are pretty much stuffed...
harpic
10th Oct 2006, 08:26
I understand that in this case the deviations from the Flight Time Limitations Scheme were so blatent that the FOI should not need a CHIRPS report to be aware of them.
spinnaker
10th Oct 2006, 08:54
.......... FOI should not need a CHIRPS report to be aware of them.
But if the FOI is gutless, useless individual, like most are, then nothing will change. During my time in the industry, I've heard just about every excuse possible from the CAA and FOI's on why they should NOT do anything when regulatory issues are raised. The GAMA guys are getting stuffeed well and truly, right under the noses of the authorities.
bilderberger
21st Oct 2006, 13:46
Just heard thro' the grapevine that another Captain in Scotland (GLA) has resigned from this company!
Has the CAA nothing to say I wonder about what is going on there ?
That makes 4 out of their 5 Capts. working their notice !
What is this outfit all about;has anybody any ideas ?
:suspect:
B.
californiakid
22nd Oct 2006, 05:03
Their only engineer for the Scottish bases is also leaving 'cos he's sick of them too !
More resignations in the pipeline apparently are going to leave them precious little guys to work with.Still I suppose there will be the fresh faced newbies coming along for their first job and they'll take anything.
I've heard that this management likes to rule with a big stick and is like something from the dark ages,treating their employees(and not just pilots)like something brought in on the underside of your shoe.
Now then,
would anyone like a job ?
C:eek:
poorwanderingwun
22nd Oct 2006, 05:45
I remember attending an interview with these people a few years back... forget the name of the chap I met but thought him an arrogant little pr*ck and I couldn't wait for the interview to be over... I was sitting there thinking, "If this is how they conduct themselves towards someone whom they want to employ... and are trying to impress... how on earth do they treat those who now depend on them for their livelihood ? "... Walking out into the sunshine was a blessed relief... I didn't even feel to do them the courtesy of responding to their calls a few days later.
It is one thing to employ "fresh face newbies" wanting to get on the greasy pole for the first time, it quite something different trying to attract direct entry captains.
Continuous bonding for ongoing LPC/OPC. Nothing like generating loyality and goodwill is there. Something the beancounters clearly do not to understand - intangible asset. The price of everything, and the value of nothing?
There are far more successful ways of dealing with pilots than using a big stick approach. Ask the question why their middle management are using this style. Is this their choice, or something "imposed" from above by one dominent individual ? Which ever way - they can forgot the annual bonuses by the look of it.
Anyway all very sad, with their Scottish ambulance contract only 6+ months into what I suspect is a 7 year contract.
:rolleyes:
On Finals
24th Oct 2006, 19:47
....yesterday another Captain submitted his notice to quit.
Last one out, please turn off the light !
ps: Synergy will handle the Cat
californiakid
30th Oct 2006, 09:40
It is one thing to employ "fresh face newbies" wanting to get on the greasy pole for the first time, it quite something different trying to attract direct entry captains.
Continuous bonding for ongoing LPC/OPC. Nothing like generating loyality and goodwill is there. Something the beancounters clearly do not to understand - intangible asset. The price of everything, and the value of nothing?
There are far more successful ways of dealing with pilots than using a big stick approach. Ask the question why their middle management are using this style. Is this their choice, or something "imposed" from above by one dominent individual ? Which ever way - they can forgot the annual bonuses by the look of it.
Anyway all very sad, with their Scottish ambulance contract only 6+ months into what I suspect is a 7 year contract.
:rolleyes:
Ther apparently is NO middle management ! Its 2 guys with big sticks and thats it .
Have the pilots settled their dispite with management then ,DOES ANYBODY KNOW ?
C.:bored:
Dannyboyblue
31st Oct 2006, 16:49
Give the contract to Synergy.... definately....I dont think anybody has worked harder for it than the guys over there.
Thats my 5 pence in:ok:
harpic
1st Nov 2006, 09:58
I started this thread after a friend told me what was happening at the Scottish Air Ambulance, (I had an interest having done the job in another life).
Since the initial post others have sent me a load of paperwork on the matter and I was able to download CAP 371 and The Civil Aviation (Working Time) Regulations 2004 (CAAWTRs) from the web. Having read this stuff It appears to me that GAMA are operating outside CAP371 AND CAAWTRs and that the CAA are not enforcing the regulations.
excrewingbod
1st Nov 2006, 11:43
harpic
Forget CAP371, you need the operator's approved FTL scheme, which is contained within Section 7 of the Part A ops manual.
remoak
1st Nov 2006, 12:06
...which is more or less a word-for-word copy of CAP371, as it is in all airlines!
MungoP
1st Nov 2006, 12:46
No way do you need to continue working without a salary just to pay off a bond. Ask them what sum is involved...Find a decent position elsewhere... leave at YOUR earliest convenience and write stating that you will be paying a sum of money.. (you decide what you can COMFORTABLY afford... ) into their account each month until the sum is repaid and let them decide what they want to do... They're not likely to get far trying to sue for money you've promised in writing to pay anyway...
californiakid
1st Nov 2006, 16:39
I started this thread after a friend told me what was happening at the Scottish Air Ambulance, (I had an interest having done the job in another life).
Since the initial post others have sent me a load of paperwork on the matter and I was able to download CAP 371 and The Civil Aviation (Working Time) Regulations 2004 (CAAWTRs) from the web. Having read this stuff It appears to me that GAMA are operating outside CAP371 AND CAAWTRs and that the CAA are not enforcing the regulations.
At last ,someone who has hit the nail right on the head and seems to know what he is talking about !
Apparently this lot are ducking,diving,swerving and dodging their way through the ftl's and the Caa work' time regs'.with a giant smile on their faces......And 2 fingers up to the CAA and their pilots it seems......Smug is probably a good description.
Good luck to them I say, while they can get away with it and laugh all the way to the bank ! Ah yes and to add insult to injury they are apparently bonding recurrent training as well for 7 grand.
What a shower.:mad:
Alpine Flyer
2nd Nov 2006, 22:16
Retroactive days off are clearly a violation of regulation 2000/79/EU which requires 96 days off per year notified in advance. The definition of "advance" is sadly left to national governments but there should be some.
Maybe the guy whose money is being withheld could sue the company for his paid days off if they weren't notified in advance. He could probably even sue her majesty's government for failure to implement an EU regulation if the CAA doesn't enforce the regulations.
Makes you wonder how Loganair managed to do this job for 35 years. Retrospective days off, 72 hr standby's,discretion and reduced rest were normal part of the scheme and all Loganair's longest serving pilots were Air Ambulance guys. I once overheard a story of a Loganair ambulance pilot in Shetland listening to half a dozen Dan Air guys at Scatsta arguing about their poor salary and conditions, 'How much much of a pay rise had Loganair offered' he was asked. 'Oh we dont like to pay too much' he replied 'it attracts the wrong type of person'. Changed days indeed.