R/T: Taxi At Your Discretion

[LH2]

I have the following R/T doubt:

At an aerodrome with an ATC service, you make the following call on the radio:

"XXX, G-YYY, request taxi to the fuel station"

and the response comes

"G-YYY, taxi at your discretion"

so, what is the proper readback? I have searched CAP413 but could not find an answer for an ATC aerodrome (diferent story when talking to R/O). I have been answering "taxiing to fuel station, G-YYY", but wonder if that is correct.

I haven't had a chance to speak to someone from the tower yet.. I'll ask them what readback they expect next time I get a chance, in the meanwhile I wonder what the opinions are here.

TIA
/LH2

[Final 3 Greens]

Assuming you are in the UK.

Are you sure the service was ATC, not FIS?

Follow this link for a CAA view ............ http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SRG_GAD_WEBSSL22.PDF#search=%22taxi%20clearance%20at%20your% 20discretion%22

If I received this message from an AFISO, I would reply "
XXXX Information, G-ABCD taxiing for fuel, via ..... (inserting the taxiways I intended to use.)

If I received it from an ATCO I would reply "XXXX Tower, G-ABCD, confirm clearance to taxi for fuel"

If I received the same message, I would shut down the aircraft and discuss the matter with the club, since I wouldn't understand why I received a non clearnace from ATC and would not feel comfortable proceeding when I didn't understand the situation.

The point being that "at your discretion is a non clearance.",

[Fuji Abound]

LH2

Just a thought but an explanation may be that some airports who normally offer an AT service, "downgrade" to a FIS outside published hours.

The clue is in the ATIS or in the acknowledgement of your call up, so it is worth listening carefully to what service is on offer.

[Keygrip]

"G-YYY, taxi at your discretion"
"Wilco G-YYY"

[LH2]

Full-time ATC

It is a Spanish aerodrome that I'm referring to, LEGE to be specific. There are some differences on the R/T, both on paper and in practice. But I couldn't find the DGAC equivalent of CAP413, and in any event, I operate under the privileges of a UK CAA R/T licence.

Given that the fuel pumps are right in front of where the aircraft is usually parked, I would expect them to come back with a simple "Approved". :cool:

Keygrip:

Taxi/towing instructions are to be read back in full. [CAP 413 1.13.5]

[soay]

"Wilco G-YYY"
But at your discretion is not a command, so will do as you command is not an appropriate response.

[FlyingForFun]

I would suspect that any of the replied here would be fine - including a simple "Roger" or similar, since you have not been given a clearance. Like you, I don't know of anywhere in CAP413 that this situation is given, but the closest I can find is at a field with an AFISO when told to "Land at your discretion" or similar. Although this is useful for making an educated guess at the correct reply, it's not very helpful in determining when this kind of "non-clearance" might be given.

I've heard similar things in the UK on rare occassions, generally indicating something which is a break from the norm and which the controller doesn't want to "clear" you for without you understanding the dangers. An example was work in progress between the hangar and the fuel pumps, not actually on the taxyway but just to the side of it. For most of the period the work was in progress, the taxyway was closed and going for fuel required a longer routing, but sometimes ATC would say "Taxy to the pumps at your discretion, caution the work in progress at ......" I've also heard similar phraseology given to taxying helicoptors.

I don't know if a difference has been filed by the Spanish authorities which would firm things up a bit more.

FFF
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[SD.]

Keep it short and simple IMO

As keygrip suggested, "Wilco G-YYY" or just "Taxi to fuel G-YYY"

[Jamongris]

From my experience of flying in Madrid I find RT instructions vary greatly depending on the level of English the controller has and I wouldn´t worry personally about what you should be replying too much. If you give what you understand to be correct a reply, they will correct you if you´re off the mark. In this instance what Final 3 says should serve you well.
A couple of examples for you. Firstly they are very fond or varying how they abbreviate call signs. EC IRJ will usually be IRJ rather than the (what I understand to be correct) alternative ERJ, and can sometimes change in the same flight. If in doubt I always read back the full sign.
Secondly, I was recently told simply to "Enter runway and position". I assumed they meant line up and wait as opposed to performing some obscure sexual act :} and read that back, which they then confirmed.
BTW I´m about to PM you with regards to another post you´ve made. Cheers :ok:

[Keygrip]

LH2 I've been beaten to it, but the phrase given was not an instruction, so no need to read it back.

[Farrell]

"Wilco G-YYY"

They make mountains where there should be molehills!

Hope the Florida sun is treating you well sir!

[flower]

There are some parts of the Aerodrome which may not be designated manoeuvring area although they look no different from the taxiway system. In that situation if they are not manoeuvring area then ATC will either not give any instruction or do something similar to what you have encountered.

If it is maintenance area then we cannot tell you to taxi.

[Final 3 Greens]

Flower

That's interesting, I didn't know that, thanks for sharing.

[172driver]

While you may not hear it often in the UK, 'XYZ at discretion' is used quite a lot internationally. I hear it often, and almost all my flying is from/to towered airports with ATC. What it basically means, at least in my understanding (and so far I haven't had to copy down a phone no :) ) is 'ok, no conflicts, do what you intend to do, whenever you're ready, by whichever route'

In the example mentioned by the OP, I would simply reply 'fuel pumps, G-XYZ', perhaps prefaced by that most important word in aviation - 'Roger' ;)

[Droopystop]

We get this all the time. It is used when the controller cannot see you (for example, you are on an apron that is obscured from the tower) and therefore cannot give you full clearance (because ATC cannot be sure that there is no obstruction). Since you are receiving a taxi instruction you must read it back. Roger/Wilco etc is inappropriate. So it would be "Taxiing to the fuel pump, G-XXXX"

[BlueRobin]

Hey so many posts and no mention of "Air/Ground"? I spotted two instructors! (ello Dean) :}

To recap, services:

ATC: permission must be made to move, takeoff or land
FIS: permission should be obtained within the manouevring area. Beyond the holding point an onto the runway, you are in full control to depart and land.
Air/Ground (A/G): inform them, no permission required or to be granted

I suspect when you ask to taxy (in this hypothetical scenario), the response indicates an A/G or "Radio" service.

[unfazed]

If it is an FISO at an airfield where the taxi to the pumps is a no brainer then you should just go ahead and taxi to the pumps and cut out the radio chatter.

I know a radio operator in SE UK who can't stand all of the pompous and unnecessary radio calls that are transmitted.

You might think that you are at Heathrow but if the only thing between you and the pumps is a field then off you go !

Further examples - XYZ blah blah blah, ready to taxi to blah blah blah request airfield information blah blah and taxi ?

Why not just listen on the frequency, set altimeter (you can find out settings, runway etc prior to leaving the op's room ) and get on with it

[BlueRobin]

So are you saying a FIO does not "control" taxy movements on their aerodrome? New one on me.

[flower]

Another thought on the fuel pump thing is covering ones rear end. I know if there is any risk that certain instructions could lead to a dangerous situation that the word discretion or caution has been known to be used.

[Kirstey]

Unfazed/Final 3 Greens.. A FISO has as much control on his/her aerodroms manouvering area as an ATCO does ath theirs. A/G is different. This only became the case 5 or so years back, but at the moment a FISO has the right to positivly control aeroplanes up to the holding point. They can tell an aeroplane to "hold position" and the "report lining up"

In terms of the original question. "Wilco Golf AB" is perfect. If a positive "taxy to the pumps" is given.. then "Wilco Golf AB" is still perfect!!

[FlyingForFun]

BlueRobin, hello mate!
Hey so many posts and no mention of "Air/Ground"?
That's because a) the original post made it clear that it was at an airfield with full ATC, and b) the question didn't relate to the UK!

FFF
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[Keygrip]

On the subject of the original question and the report of incorrect RT phraseology from ATC...

"XXX, G-YYY, request taxi to the fuel station"
If this was a FIRST call on frequency there should be four Y's in the callsign - if it was a second, or subsequent call, then there should be no need for repetition of the XXX (groundstation callsign).

Which one did ya do wrong, LH2?

[Final 3 Greens]

Kirstey

I am aware of the authority limits of an AFISO.

I am equally aware that a lot of them give "at your discretion" responses, since often their radio positions have less than a perfect view of the manouevering area.

That's why I would respond with my intentions, just as if I was landing under AFIS.

I have never received an "at your discretion" message from ATC, albeit i have have a few hundred hours experience, so that's not much exposure in the bigger view of things.

I have often received them from A/G units with delusions of grandeur :rolleyes:

[Final 3 Greens]

KeyGrip

LH2 simply stated a Spanish type registration. but using a G- prefix to relate it to CAP413..

They only have 3 letters in their national suffix, as you may notice next time you see some Iberia heavy metal.

[Droopystop]

In terms of the original question. "Wilco Golf AB" is perfect. If a positive "taxy to the pumps" is given.. then "Wilco Golf AB" is still perfect!!

A quick look at CAP 413 reveals that such a response is less than perfect.

[Keygrip]

F3G - he can't have it both ways. Was it Spanish registered or UK registered. There can only be one answer.

As both of us know, CAP413 has no bearing, whatsoever, in Spanish airspace so the reference is irrelevant.

[Final 3 Greens]

Yeah, I think he should be shot for such a mistake,

[Kirstey]

Sorry Droppy.. no mention of "taxy to the pumps" etc etc in CAP 413

A CLEARANCE limit to a holding point I think should be read back. I don't think "the pumps" is a clearance limit.. although if a specific routing were offered then I'd go with that in the readback.

That's my opinion and CAP413 (as usual) doesn't make things clear on the subject.

[unfazed]

I have often received them from A/G units with delusions of grandeur

Apologies - I was thinking of one of the above units so obviously taxying whilst not disturbing their snooze is perfectly acceptable and indeed actively encouraged.

[Droopystop]

CAP 413 quite clearly states that all taxi instructions are to be read back. Section 1.13.5

[Kirstey]

I stand corrected.. that was the exact place i looked for it.. and missed it even thought it was the first entry.. oh well.. my rt shall change from next time lol

[LH2]

Greetings, OP here.

I promised to post back when I got an authoritative answer to my question from the concerned air traffic chappies.

And Mr./Mrs. flower (post #12) turns out to be exactly right. The pumps in question are outside the manoeuvering area (just by a couple metres) so instructions cannot be given to taxi there.

So, the answer they expect is "taxiing G-ABCD", or "will taxi G-ABCD" if you do not intend to start moving immediately.

Hope we've all learnt something, thanks for your contributions.
/LH2

[chevvron]

The term 'at your discretion' might be more frequently used by Spanish ATC; I've heard it used by ATC at Lanzarote when inbound the declared runway was 21 (downhill towards the sea) and my crew requested an approach to 03; the reply then was 'at your discretion'.

[Sir George Cayley]

Surely, if it's a Spanish airport then a lead from pilot's of their national airline operating into the UK should be taken.

"Echo Sharleee Novombre Ooniform Tango............. ah............requesta taxhi to gasolina"

"Eko Uniform Tango at your discretion"

"er......[sounds in back ground] .........[unintellegible]........Echo Tango.........
......er...Ooniform Tango.............er.........................Roya !


Then taxi to anywhere on the apron but not the pumps:)



Sir George Cayley