crossing cat 1 hold bars

[Dozza2k]

I operate out of LHR a fair bit, and obviously the usual conditional line up is issued. Is it acceptable to cross the cat1 hold bar, i.e enter the runway, before the guy on the threshold has been cleared for departure? Bearing in mind its daylight and good vis.
I do it a lot, as do most of the guys in the other seat aswell. It does save a bit of time, especially if lining up 09r/27l from the south side.

So, is it legal?, do the tower guys expect it?, was the skipper who tore a strip off me for doing this correct?

answers on a post card please
d2k

[GT3]

A lot of grey areas with a lot of yes and no answers I am afraid. If the runway is used for departures only and you are 100% sure that you are next to go (the single line up procedure at the moment should help here) then moving up to ensure best runway occupancy could be deemed ok. However technincally if you cross the CAT1 prior to the a/c being cleared for take off then starting to roll it could be seen as a runway incursion. You and the skipper are both right and wrong if you get what I mean.

Ever come up to the tower at LHR? More than welcome to visit us and see how we work in deps - might be a huge benefit to all crews.

[Giles Wembley-Hogg]

GT3

I'm not even sure that you are "technically" an incursion if you cross the Cat 1 bar before the preceeding traffic has been given take-off clearance. "Departing" doesn't seem to be defined anywhere, certainly not in CAP 413. It could be receiving clearance, starting to roll, applying power or entering the runway. I go with whichever suits me best on the day!

G W-H

[Dozza2k]

yeh. Thats what I thought. I have popped up to the tower once before guess i could do again before you move into the cloud top tower now that I've got a few more questions.
I'll just keep on doing what I'm doing.
Ta
d2k

[GT3]

GT3
I'm not even sure that you are "technically" an incursion if you cross the Cat 1 bar before the preceeding traffic has been given take-off clearance. "Departing" doesn't seem to be defined anywhere, certainly not in CAP 413. It could be receiving clearance, starting to roll, applying power or entering the runway. I go with whichever suits me best on the day!
G W-H

Possibly yes, but then when does it become an incursion? Do we measure from the centreline. If the wrong aircraft crosses the CAT1 is that deemed as an incursion? Purely throwing things into the pot here.

[Data Dad]

I don't believe it can be an "incursion"

From MATS Part 1 Section 2 Chapter 1 Page 6 para 7.6.2

"A runway incursion is any occurrence at an airport involving the unauthorised or unplanned presence of an aircraft, vehicle or person on the protected area of a surface designated for aircraft take-off and landing."

If a Conditional Clearance has been issued then it is both an authorised and planned movement.

DD

[Musket90]

I agree with DD, provided the CAT I hold position is at the runway end and not at an intermediate take-off position and the conditional line-up clearance is following another departure from the same point, except if both are departing from the same intermediate position. If an intermediate departure crosses the Cat I hold before a full length departure has passed then this I believe to be an incursion.
In addition to protecting the runway cleared and graded area, for precision approach runways CAT I holds are to protect interference to radio-aids, penetration of the Obstacle Free Zone and penetration of the OCA/H.

[Sir George Cayley]

If ATC have the Red Stop Bar lit and you cross that - it's an incursion.:=

No lit stop bar - provided your wake categorey is OK - No probs.:ok:

Every year NATS do a reaction time survey so every second counts.

If you are driving a 747 and are sure LHR Ops have a clean runway why not see have far up the arse of the departing you can get:uhoh:

We could start a book on this:)

Sir George Cayley

[GuruCube]

...provided the CAT I hold position is at the runway end and not at an intermediate take-off position and the conditional line-up clearance is following another departure from the same point, except if both are departing from the same intermediate position. If an intermediate departure crosses the Cat I hold before a full length departure has passed then this I believe to be an incursion.
I agree fully with Musket90 here.

Every year NATS do a reaction time survey so every second counts.
I think its BAA that do that... (but dont quote me, it could be NATS as well)

[Sean Dell]

Dozza 2k wrote

was the skipper who tore a strip off me for doing this correct?

There is at least one skipper I have flown with who applies his interpretation of the LHR booklet above what is specifically written in FCO's (Runway Utilisation). He is wrong, he simply degrades runway utilisation at the worlds busiest airport and has had a crm bypass operation. Fortunately chaps like this are few and far between, and most aply pragmatism by the bucket load.

Ps if you are that Capt - please stop it. It gets on everyones T1Ts

[discountinvestigator]

I agree with DD, provided the CAT I hold position is at the runway end and not at an intermediate take-off position and the conditional line-up clearance is following another departure from the same point, except if both are departing from the same intermediate position. If an intermediate departure crosses the Cat I hold before a full length departure has passed then this I believe to be an incursion.
In addition to protecting the runway cleared and graded area, for precision approach runways CAT I holds are to protect interference to radio-aids, penetration of the Obstacle Free Zone and penetration of the OCA/H.

The CAT I hold only offers protection of the inbound approach from collision with a mobile obstacle. It does not protect the Clear and Graded, it does not protect the navaids. It does not necessarily protect the OCA/H for non precision approaches. It does not protect the departing aircraft from the inbound aircraft, so crash location risk assessments are required as well.

Can we clear this up for once and for all?

In addition, remember that if an aircraft is at a CAT I hold, you cannot necessarily taxi behind it without colliding with it.

Are you considering the aircraft at the CAT I hold as being the nose on the line, the nosewheel on the line, or you can see it over the nose of the cockpit? Which one to you consider to be corrrect?

Controller should only ever issue conditional line-up clearance after a full blown risk assessment. I would have to say that LHR and MAN runway 2 departure only cases should be fairly easy in this respect. However, remember you do get some landings on the "departure" runway at Heathrow, but procedures/tasks/alarms should manage this and no conditionals when arrivals are expected helps.

If you actually dig into the aerodrome standards books, such as Annex 14 and CAP 168 you will find that the whole subject is a bit of a mess.