Swiss European Air Lines

[Winglet74]

The Swiss Pilots Association, representing the Avro pilots from Swiss European Air Lines (ex-Crossair) got a mandate from its members to call for industrial action in case their working conditions are not aligned with the one from the Airbus A320 family pilots (ex-Swissair) flying as well on the European network.

An answer from the management is expected on Monday the 25th of September 2006. If the motto one company, one working contract is not applied, the Avro pilots could be on strike as soon as Tuesday the 26th of September at 0530LT, as they all already got their strike instructions/duties.

As a reminder, a court decision in 2003 asked Swiss Intl Air Lines to stop discriminating the ex-Crossair pilots against the ex-Swissair pilots with less salary, less vacation, less off days, less pension, …

This court decision was simply not applied by the Swiss national carrier, which belonged at that time to the Swiss Federal and local governments, before being sold to Lufthansa.

All Avro pilots are ready!

[Dani]

title is wrong, they are not (yet) on strike. It all depends on what's happening on today's negotiation (officially Swiss does NOT negotiate with Swiss Pilots union).

Dani

[gofer]

Radio Basilisk is reporting this on their news, but the local newspaper BaZ (http://www.BaZ.ch) has not yet taken this up on their online news ticker. Their last article was on 22nd (http://www.baz.ch/news/index.cfm?ObjectID=D62383F9-1422-0CEF-70F6D61E1CA04171) - sorry about the german but it basically matches initial thread posting.

Link to Swiss Pilots data with the facts (also in German) here (http://www.swisspilots.ch/index.php?id=57&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=42&tx_ttnews[backPid]=63&cHash=c1dc4a6d6a). Suspect that Swiss's management fully underestimates the level of discontent and frustration within the "ex. Crossair" team, who were the vehicule to "save" much of the old Swissair operations.

Hopefully this inexperienced union, at least as far as strike action is concerned, will be successful in a country where any such action rarely starts and usually fizzels out fast if it does get off the ground at all.
Good luck guys & gals, this SLF is rooting for you...:ugh: :=

[Winglet74]

Yes you're right sorry Dani, not yet on strike but getting ready.

Officially Swiss doesn't negociate with Swisspilots association but since the union obtained a strike mandate after a successful ballot (82% of yes), Management seems to suddenly care about our working conditions...

The motion which was initiated by the members of SPA is clear, NO DISCRIMINATION for the European sector.

Let's wait and see...

Brgds

[lov2fly]

We don't care if the bananamanagement will negotiate or not. There is no negotiation area. We want the same contract for all pilots flying in the European segment: the good one (aeropampers) or the bad one (ex-Crossair). Every "non-trepanned" pilot is ready to strike as soon as the signal is received. We already know all our duties and the determination is strong. We are waiting this moment since many years...

See you.. on the ground.:)

[Winglet74]

Hello Lov2Fly,

Yes here too, looking forward to see managers face in front of the media!!
They have been warn serveral times and they are still playing poker...

I'm now almost sure that we will be the next european airline on strike, the only discussion item within us is STRIKE.

See you on the ground.

[gofer]

News (http://www.baz.ch/news/index.cfm?ObjectID=E6049AB6-1422-0CEF-70F1E341CE88DDEB) indicates that as of office closing time tonight, Swiss had not reacted to the deadline. So anybody travelling on Swiss in Europe from tomorrow on, had better not have a schedule to keep. Watch for action in the next few hours/days/weeks, until Swiss comes to a solution - whatever it may be.


RIP and good luck chaps & chapesses, and beware of the camera's.:uhoh:

[Aslan]

Thunderbirds are go! :uhoh:

[ibelieveicanfly]

I was many years in this company and when swiss was founded aeropers flew THEIR airbuses under crossair callsign I can still remember in LHR which means if swiss exists now that is in great part of the ex-crossair and their pilots included!!!
I am with you guies,and hope you are going to win the battle against these non human...

[kelb]

We all know that crossair was profitable company,swissair was not as we all know, what about swiss and arrogant pilots against ex-crossair pilots?

[Winglet74]

Thanks for your support guys!!

Here we go, watch the news tomorrow morning !! :)

[RoyHudd]

Solidarity to the ex-Crossair people, amd the reasonable ex-Swissair folk too. As for the former Swissair management who are behaving traditionally, I hope you receive what you deserve.:=

[Phil Brentnall]

Go for it fellas! Wipe the smile off Christoph Franz's smug face! Let us know the account number of any fighting fund. Good luck, strength and solidarity to you all.

[EatMyShorts!]

As for the former Swissair management who are behaving traditionally, I hope you receive what you deserve.I guess they still get their big pay cheques, whatever they will do...

Anyways, dear friends at Crossair (I used to work there, too), show them what determination is - and if you get fired, then don't beg, look for a better job, the time is now, the time is right! NJE, EZY, RYR etc...

[PondLifeMan]

A Collective Labour Agreement negotiated by SWISS and Swiss Pilots was approved in March by a majority of the members of the SPA but the agreement failed by a narrow margin to gain the approval of the two-thirds majority required by statute. The essential trust required for a social partnership was harmed at that time by Swiss Pilots’ manipulation of the vote. As a consequence, SWISS no longer recognised the social partnership. With the individual contracts of employment that have since been in effect Swiss European continues to live up to its responsibilities as the employer of the Avro pilots and offers them conditions of employment that are in line with the market. These valid contracts enable Swiss European to operate its Avro fleet competitively, even in the tough struggle against low-cost carriers. Over the past 12 months this has also allowed SWISS to expand the Avro fleet by 30 per cent. Job cuts for operational reasons were thus avoided during the restructuring process and the Avro pilots were offered the prospect of a sustained future.

Swiss European is interested in establishing a loyal, future-oriented, trust-based social partnership and is keeping open its existing offer to engage in dialogue with the Avro pilots.

[Dani]

You forgot the quotation marks and the big grim smiley at the end :E

[ettore]

120 cancelled flights, around 7000 pax to reroute or refund at midday, according to a LX-spokesperson on TV.

Not bad, guys, for a first time strike.

[dartagnan]

ah ah good job guys!

now they will have to stop discriminating and pay you a respectable salary.or they will lose their opeator license...

WE ARE WITH YOU!!!:ok:



and complaints must be sent to the OFAC (swiss caa)
http://www.aviation.admin.ch/kontakt/index.html?lang=en


(don't miss the DVD realease of "grounding"...)

[gofer]

Swiss Management's latest press statement, implied threats if work was not resumed by 18:00.

I fear that Mr. Franz has NOT understood - it is HE and his management who contravene the court ruling. In a real democracy the differences in pay since the court ruling + interest should now be paid out to all - and a collective contract at the SAME rate as the other Swiss pilots for short haul, be offered immediately.
[U]
Unfortunately for Swiss Pilots they will find that Switzerland is not a real democracy and that the most probable course of action will be dismissals and sub-contracting the routes to Lufthansa, Austrian, SAS and any other Star alliance member able to pick up the slack. Such a move is in Chris Franz's interests so that he can make Swiss a virtual airline flown by others, faster than was ever thought possible.

Beware Guys:ugh: ... but it would be nice if justice partially won out.:ok:
BaZ update at 12:00h today (http://www.baz.ch/news/index.cfm?ObjectID=E872548C-1422-0CEF-700FFC8CDC86B819)
BaZ news at 16:00h today (http://www.baz.ch/news/index.cfm?ObjectID=E991959A-1422-0CEF-70B255D0594ECDDE)

By 12:30 122 flights had been cancelled. the union confirms that the managements demand for a return to work by 18:00 will not be met - it is down tools for the full 24h period and at the time of the interview with Swiss Pilots representative there were no known strike breakers (in English 'scabs'). The cabin crew union are sympathetic and supportative of the Swiss Pilots cause, as are the Ground Staff !
Cabin Crew's Press Statement (http://www.kapers.ch/pub/press.html)

Swiss have set up a help line for PAX, but their web site is pathetically uninformative.

[susi]

good stuff ex Crossair guys- :D

[finalschecks]

3 to 4 years late but nevertheless good luck guys !

[FE Hoppy]

Good for you guys.
Stay strong and stay together.
Lufty has no spare capacity neither does anyone else so swiss depend on you for feeder flights and this is how you show your worth. For too long they have rebuilt their company at your expense.

From someone who knows alot of you guys
Well done.

[gofer]

Certain Swiss Managers are making mileage with the press and with docking pay for today as well as threats of dismissal if strikes are ever resorted to again.

You have missed getting or failed to get an important point across today - and that was that you have a court ruling that the company is dishonouring....

The future looks dirty - hope all of you have job offers in the pipeline - if so - the ONLY way to make people understand to is talk with you feet. And if every one of you who leaves writes a personal letter to Mr. Moritz Leuenberger telling him why you left and that his and MB's TV comments where the final straw to make up your minds all the better - and if Swiss Pilots would make an open section for all to see on their web, with all of those letters - perhaps then your actions might bring something more than the public besmerching action that was started in the media today against you.

[lov2fly]

Thanks to all pilots, ex-colleagues or not, (EZS, NJE, FlyBaboo, Dassner, Virgin, Cathay, TAG etc.) who gave us a visit or a call during this day. For a lot of them this strike was also their strike. We will not release the pressure and we will continue with the same determination demonstrated today. Next step in a couple of days.:ok:

[galleypower]

Best of luck to you all. The strike came late, but better late than never. Hope the future is orange :) , if not, be assured you (the ex-LX Pilots) are well respected in other parts of the world. :ok:

[Aslan]

Managers that haven't got things under control often try to save their behinds with various postulations etc.
Gofer, I understand your point about getting across the point about SWISS not complying with the court's ruling but depending upon which news reports, this item came through clearer than in others.
It seems though today, that the responsible managers for the first full blown strike in Swiss Aviation history are still bleating away about being open for discussion/negotiations blah blah, as long as it doesn't involve implementing the court's ruling (check today's papers). :ugh:
One has to presume, according to the content the Swiss pilot's president comment said in one paper I read, that strike actions will have to be repeated...... :D

[T/O after nine]

My compliments for the strike! The Swiss management (=aeropers) only learns if the pressure is high enough. Do it again!!!

[Thin Albert]

:} no worries, there will be 100% more strikeaction, according the stupid managements mail,which approached the pilots today by 7pm.
Mgt said they have time to talk on 4 Oct for around 90 minutes!!:p
:zzz: Thats nothing and to much time to wait, so there will be a reaction before, and then Mgt promised to fire people .........:zzz: :zzz: :zzz:
Cheerio
TA

[flufdriver]

I guess it's easy for me to say "stay the course" but you really don't have a choice. It is never a simple matter to call a strike, because whenever you give someone an ultimatum you also give one to yourselves.

So I suppose you had your own "Ruetli-Schwur" and embarked on the current course of action. I hope that your membership supports the process and I support your efforts from a distance.

Management must understand that Pilots know that these are difficult times in this industry, they must also understand that Labour are not the only ones that should carry the burden and worse, some groups more then others, while top executives get bonuses, golden parachutes and insured and secured pension and severance packages.:ok:

Fluf

[RoyHudd]

Again, Good Luck, ex-LX dudes.....you will find work most places if you ultimately need to.:ok:

[Winglet74]

Thanks for your support guys!!

Management since to ignore our 1st wake up call... Looks like we will have to setup the alarm almost every other day if they don't understand what we want.

The worst is that we're only requesting EQUAL TREATMENT, nothing more.
They said that salaries of pilot >=100 seats are lower than >100 seats worldwide... It was never the case at Swissair before!!! And why are A319 pilots paid the same as A340 pilots??

If you have 101 seats on your aircraft, you also deserve more flight expenses, better pension fund, more vacations, more days off, a bonus in case of profit, a job protection and so on, this is also normal??

Give me a break, this management is so stupid, they should have a loook on successful airline, they have been given an airline with a very nice network, more than 80 regional aircrafts, and 4 billions to play with!!! After 3 years, everything is gone, Swiss is now German :-) What a joke!!!

Concerning US, the Swiss european pilots, no peace, we are ready to loose our jobs, we don't care about dissmissal threats!!

WE HAD MORE FUN DURING THIS 1 DAY STRIKE THAN DURING THE LAST 3 YEARS!!!

AND WE ARE LOOKING FOR FUN IN THE FOLLOWING DAYS !

brgds

[N380UA]

It's a full blow standoff now. It's you or them! Go have some more fun before you report to other carriers for better prospects. All the best Crossair :ok: show MB his way.:=

[65 Racer]

I would like to express all my solidarity, and best luck to all of you!
With my heart I’m with you! :D

[T/O after nine]

Fight for your rights, guys...
Should you be fired, there are lots of good airlines worldwide who appreciate your good daily work. Ex-Crossair have excellent reputation all over.
Good luck!!!

[gofer]

Saw the latter part of part 1 of the Swiss TV documentary on the death of Swissair..... and was of reminded of the parallels of the arrogance, and now clear stupidity, of a Mr. Corti at that time and the actions of the current SEAL CEO MB. :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

Thought Moritz Suter's clips were brilliantly inserted. The DVD is available at SF1's online shop ... probably better value that the Swissair film on DVD.:D

Think somebody should lease around 30 50 seaterplanes, start a new airline - lets call it X-Air and have the the SEAL pilots all resign at once to join the new company. Yes pay might not be as high as the A-320 pilots get - but you would have your own show guys.... Also you could run all those routes that can't be made to pay with buses or 737's !!!!:ok:

[Pilot2B]

There's a release dated September 27th 2006 on the Swiss Air website that claims that all is back to normal and the dispute no longer affects operations.

http://www.swiss.com/web/strike?wt.ac=ON_HP02_flightnews

Yet the posts on here, some as recent as 18 hours ago say no such thing.

What is the current status ?

I know nothing about the company or the underlying issues that gave rise to this dispute, but the last sentence in the statement on the company's website gives me a good idea of management's attitude: SWISS deeply regrets that, by striking, Swiss Pilotschose to manifest their labour dispute at the expense of the airline’scustomers.

What a stupid thing to say. A desperate attempt to make the customer think that the company is totally innocent and it's just a couple of hysterical "bad apples" who took industrial action.

[Snoopy]

As a regular passenger and a senior manager in a large corporation, I can tell you that you are all delusional.... Having read the newspapers here it is obvious that you have lost a lot of sympathy. The company will feel strengthened in its approach and will remain firm. You might squeeze some concessions out of them but nothing like to the extent that you are looking for. If they did give you what you wanted, Swiss European would have no reason to be.

Concerning US, the Swiss european pilots, no peace, we are ready to loose our jobs, we don't care about dissmissal threats!!


As Winglet 74 says you are all having fun...please continue and make the most of it. You may well lose your jobs....

[Dani]

Snoopy, if the company remains firm as it used to be, then it is poised to go bankrupt or grounded again...

See, those pilots have nothing to loose anymore. They get the shabbiest treatment you can imagine - and I'm talking mainly of "soft" factors (not money). They can leave this company anytime, and most of them will do it anyway. They don't need this company, but the company needs them: Swiss ordered quite a few Avro RJs, so it can be assumed that they make good money with them with the present conditions. And Swiss' customer won't accept this product delivered by foreign low budget franchising partner (see Swissair Express).

It's the biggest missconception of most of outsiders that they think the actors in the long Swiss saga act like normal people. Let me put it this way: You wouldn't believe what happens/happened if you would see behind the curtain. You as a senior manager would turn your face away in disgust.

Dani

[airmen]

Good job guys, however a bit late, (A few years ago after the ruling) when we had more power (more numerous).
Keep going, you have all my support, keep the pressure till they fail and the Master Warning lit up! Then discharge the bottle and extinguish them definitely:D :D :D
Take care

[DCS99]

We all know that crossair was profitable company,swissair was not as we all know, what about swiss and arrogant pilots against ex-crossair pilots?

Not correct.
Swissair subsidised Crossair's marketing, distribution and IT costs massively.

Swissair saved Crossair in the past, prior to 2001.

I have sympathy for the crew in these current conditions, but don't live in the past talking about "ex-Swissair managers".

And respect that without Swissair, Crossair would have been bankrupted before.

BOTH sides needed each other to exist:
Without the SR long-haul network, LX would not have survived.
Without the LX feeders, SR long-haul would have struggled to compete in a global market.

Where we are now:
The competition is phenomenal - EZY are massive at GVA and BSL.

Today with Swiss selling tickets at 13 CHF return to BCN (not including taxes) to compete with Clickair, there is no sign of easy times ahead...for all staff whether they work in the air or on the ground.

[N380UA]

Smart enough comment Mr. DCS, its spot on. However, that does not justify for such discrimination within the same outfit. As these are tough times, we all have to bleed, not just some for others.

The days of glory, silk scarf flying hero's with their too pretty and dumb flight attendants, where pax would voluntarily put on a tie before boarding are most definitely gone. Its much like taking a train nowadays.

The only thing we can hang on to is "one for all and all for one". Once it gets lump sided we're left with only ****.

All in all this is just FUBAR.

[Winglet74]

[quote=Pilot2B;2878554]There's a release dated September 27th 2006 on the Swiss Air website that claims that all is back to normal and the dispute no longer affects operations.

http://www.swiss.com/web/strike?wt.ac=ON_HP02_flightnews

Yet the posts on here, some as recent as 18 hours ago say no such thing.

What is the current status ?

The current status is as follow:

The company said that the operations are back to normal, this means that all the flights are operated according schedule.

They have send the union AGAIN an ultimatum (Friday 7pm) to sign a Peace agreement which will prevent us from striking.

The union position is quite clear, the goal is still the same and therefore there is no reason to accept such an agreement as long as they don't accept to sign the agreement for a discrimination free contract.

There is a meeting on October 4th between the company and the union, it seems that the company only want to negociate a peace agreement but not willing to enter negociation for a good CLA.

Chances are that a new action will take place before in order to ask then ONCE MORE, ARE YOU WILLING TO STOP DISCRIMINATION???

Stay tune and thank you very much for your support!!!

[ShortfinalFred]

Many congratulations on your strike. May I suggest you hold another one day stoppage before the "talks about talks" that are scheduled with your management on October 4th, just to "concentrate their minds".

Divide and conquor is the maxim of airline management these days, and its become a filthy dirty place to work. You are doing us ALL, every single professional pilot, a huge favour by the courageous stand you have taken. It sends a clear message to manipulative managment who enrich themselves at professional peoples' expense that the end result will be the meltdown of the company that pays their golden hellos, golden severance packages and golden salaries.

We at another Big Airline in Europe are looking forward to telling our own deceitful and manipulative management that their attempts to enrich themselves at our expense are doomed too. Cant wait for the strike to start myself. As you say, a point is reached where there is nothing to lose and everything to gain, starting with self-respect which you guys have done an excellent job of restoring. Keep it up and well done.

[ibelieveicanfly]

please,do not talk about something you do not know about what happened and what is happening internally inside this company.
are you blind or what ,the public image is mainpulated!

[Thin Albert]

To Snoopy
which newspapers do you mean? Can you be more precise, did you read them all, if that, its more in our favour.
What do you know from inside, or are you just talking about speculations and what you took from press??
Is ist normal to disregard the court decisions for almost 4 years?
Most of us have already up to 3 better conditions jobs in the pocket,so we dont really care to loose this job.This is the last chance to fight for good conditions in our own country, our own airline (Swiss=Crossair AG),
and if you dont mind we have a lot of fun with that!!:)

[T/O after nine]

To Snoopy:
"Having read the newspapers here it is obvious that you have lost a lot of sympathy."

I don't think the Ex-Crossair pilots should be concerned about the opinion of certain newspapers, but I'd like to ask you one question: In which "banana republic" do we live, if a decision from the court stating clear, that Ex-Crossair Pilots are beeing discriminated (not only salary, as well offdays, vacation, expenses...), can be disregarded for more than three years? I run myself a company in Switzerland as c.e.o., but I would NEVER allow myself or others to treat employees doing the same job in such an unfair unequal manner. Flying an A-319, A-320 or A321 is the same job as flying the Jumbolino (maybe a little bit easier). And blocking the Ex-Crossair Pilots to fly the A330 or A-340 goes into the same direction.

But I have the impression, people forget quite fast how Swiss was created out of Crossair and that suddenly 900 pilots from a bancrupt company entered Crossair in a way, to kick them out of their own company (I think (more or less) from 1100 pilots only 280 are left). If this is not mobbing, then only ethnic cleaning comes to my mind.

[Snoopy]

To those who say I should talk about what I know or that I am blind, I will just repeat that you are delusional. You obviously haven't got a clue about the realities of running a company or the rules of the game when dealing with large conglomerates like Lufthansa. It is irrelevant to me whether a court ruled in your favour or not. Courts do not often judge cases on economic principles. If the airline is forced into increasing its cost base (and I mean Swiss European) to such an extent that it is no longer competitive, it will close it down. There are many ways to get around the law in business, there are things called loopholes. Specialists are paid vast sums of money to figure out ways to find such solutions. You are just not in that league. I'm not saying that you are wrong, but I am saying that you are flogging a dead horse and that you are in a no-win situation. Public opinion is really irrelevant. People are not goimg to stop flying Swiss because they think that they are not treating you well. If they have to travel they will take whichever airline suits them best and is value for money. People may well say that they support you, but talk is cheap. When you ask them to put their money where their mouth is, I am afraid that you will find you have very few friends.

Many people remember that whilst Crossair was a vehicle that was used to engineer the birth of Swiss, it was in fact money from the Swiss government and Cantons that enabled it to happen.

As I said, I am not saying you are wrong. I am just saying "wake up and smell the coffee...."

[ibelieveicanfly]

it seems you have a short memory!
first of all if swissair was recognized profitable at a certain time and also to pay the big salaries it is mainly due to GateGourmet,Swissport,Swisshotel (profitable)which were owned by swissair and later on by Sairgroup and NOT because of the airline swissair net!
secondly,crossair was profitable and at a less glorious time swissair and crossair needed each other to survive and be competitive and then arrived the hunt strategy of bruggisser(buying AOM,LTU,Sabena-in 70 years live always in red figures and so on,the airlines which nobody wanted except the clever bruggisser).
third,when the Sairgroup collapsed, NOT SWR and CRX!, Moritz could make a deal with the banks to buy and extract crossair(the company he created and owned himself!) from the Sairgroup,and so on go on with one company which permitted to create swiss airlines rapidly on the basis of CRX!!
fourth, at this time and only at this time,aeropers(ex swrssair pilot union,still existing) said to the CCP or SPA(union of ex crx pilot doing the strike today) that we have to work together because aeropers knew they were weak,what for a lie from aeropers,working together!!

remember,remember...:=

[Dani]

Snoopy, you might be right in saying that big business can do whatever they want. If they wanted to ground Swiss European, the regional arm of Swiss International, they would have done that long time ago, bearing in mind that they want to get rid of the rebel pilots anyway.

The fact is that Swiss needs the regional arm, to generate revenue on a cheap basis. They also could hire contractor airlines (which they do actually, but not on a large scale). But the plans were much like buying even more of these Avro RJ's, because they knew they could get a good product for low costs. Also make some comparison with Lufthansa's own regional arm CityLine and Air Dolomiti (both with the same Avro RJ's). If their cost base would be cheaper, they wouldn't have blown up Swiss European's fleet.

So its a clear give and take, this is no one way street. Swiss with its Aeropers biased managers have to realize that they do not have the power to overcome the basic laws of physics, law and economy.

[Winglet74]

To Snoppy :

Several signs show us that the problem has nothing to do with profitability but it's rather political, ex-crossair HAVE TO BE LESS PAID than ex-swissair.

Both corps need pilots, how do you explain that Swiss wants to hire breand new pilots with low time and make them fly the A319 with an A340 salary??? And the poor guy which will be given the AVRO, doing the same job as his friend will be paid 40% less, will have less vacation, etc etc etc.

If Swiss says that Salary is paid according aicraft type (Number of seats), mathematically they are very bad and it shows how stupid the management is:

AVRO : 99 seats
A319 : 118 seats
A340 : 230 seats

Now, can you see the prob?? Why an A319 pilot get the A340 salary?? The seat ratio difference is even worst between 319 / 340 than it is between AVRO / 319!! POLITICAL, NOTHING ELSE!

Does the fact that your airplane has 19pax more entitles you for more vacations, more days off, more pension, bonus, etc ??? What can justify this Snoopy?

If you want to speak about Revenue per seat, I can tell you that Swiss European has 18 flights a day to London City, we are almost always full of business passengers, London city airport (Like Bern, Sion and others) requires special qualifications for the crew, special simulator training, etc.. On the Airbus fleet, there is not a single airport that requires special training.

Next week will be very difficult for the Swiss Management, they will as for day of our strike found themselves in a very surprising situation that wasn't planned by them since 3 years....

Wait a few more days and you will see what's going to happend :)

Fly safe,
Winget

[Josey Wales]

Hey Winglet74,

Looks like you know something I don't!!
Anyway I am as well looking forward a another day of strike as it seems that management didn't understand what we were trying to tell 'em.


I (http://I) know nothing about the company or the underlying issues that gave rise to this dispute, but the last sentence in the statement on the company's website gives me a good idea of management's attitude: SWISS deeply regrets that, by striking, Swiss Pilotschose to manifest their labour dispute at the expense of the airline’scustomers.

What a stupid thing to say. A desperate attempt to make the customer think that the company is totally innocent and it's just a couple of hysterical "bad apples" who took industrial action.

I couldn't agree more...Did you know that during the first hours of the strike Christoph Franz and Mannfred Brennwald (Top Management!!) had nothing else to do than serve coffee and croissants to the (understandably) unhappy passengers. I would have thought than starting to negociate with the union was more appropriate, but it was exactly their way of telling the public "We don't know what these guys are moaning about, it has nothing to do with us!!"
BTW, special thanks to Moritz Leuenberger, President of the Confederation of Switzerland for his supportives words!:yuk:

[Voeni]

thanks winglet74 for the inside-info, makes it really interesting. snoopy has made good points, and when reading ibelieveicanfly i can see another one not over it yet...

let's take the emotion out of it!

as a commercial pilot in switzerland, neither working for swiss intl nor swiss european but experiencing "hard times" as well, i can understand the strike and i support it. well done!

on the other hand, let's face it: they will never ever have the same package as the airbus guys, not because your ex-crossair (as some obviously assume) but because swiss european is the regional feeder. every large airline in europe has it's feeder with the same business principles, it is a different market! it does not make a difference, which aircraft you're flying (see austrian arrows with it's f100) and how long your trips are!!

the swiss pilot union's aim has to be to get a fair CLA, the same amount of holidays, some stability, a clear career model and the ability to reach the other side. that's the difference to almost all other european carriers, where it is possible to apply for a job within the mainline on a priority basis, which means you'd be considered first before someone from the outside. but you will never get the same salary, because that is business principle with different market segments!

after all... swiss european is the same as cityline, arrows or whatever - it's a different company than their respective mainline...

[dartagnan]

Switzerland is a discriminative country, they only antidiscrimination law they have is for racism.

Strike is not authorized in Switzerland.

Swissair and Swiss have killed the swiss aviation with the help of the Swiss government and the ex-corrupted OFAC (swiss CAA). There is no futur in Switzerland for pilots.

Boycott Swiss!

[Voeni]

no future in switzerland for pilots?? so you must have a good insight, do you? what are your problems exactly?

[ibelieveicanfly]

there will be soon jobs in switzerland,somewhere in the northwest part,charter company,in operation since 2 years and nice company.
it is time to apply now!

[F4F]

Congrats to all you guys :D
A strike in Switzerland... a sensation for sure
A strike in aviation from ex-Crossair pilots: holy cow, this has to be called a miracle (nevertheless following the quarter of century or so of mistreatments)

You guys a writing history, well done :ok:

Wishing you all the success you deserve!

[Snoopy]

You guys a writing history...

Yep, which ever way it turns out!!!

[N380UA]

…five years to this day. The movie brought back a lot of memories. :\

[Gretchenfrage]

You guys are pathetic.
Crossair has been dead three times and brought back to life twice by Swissair and finally by beeing
bought out last minute by UBS. A cheap trick to screw it's Zuerich rival CS. They wanted to fly on
dying Swissairs merits, having no own, but got caught out by national pride and the govts cash injection.
Therefore Crossair is still dead because the ugly Swiss-construct beeing set up on its base was just
another cheap move to avoid law suits.
SAir Group died because of another, but failed legal trick to circumnavigate EU law. No merger or 100% ownership for cherrypicking Swiss companies in the EU, so Bruggi bought the worst in airlines around
to win by shear size in typical Swissair megalomaniac manner.
So Crossair is dead, Swissair is dead and only the missconcept Swiss is still alive and might slowly
get a life after several restructuings. All along Switzerland's govt and managers have been exposed
using just as many cheap tricks as other banana republics.
The unions taking proudly part in that dirty game.
Guys, wake up. There's only Swiss left if you're too lazy to emigrate. Conditions will always remain
Swiss, meaning cheating and dirty tricks from all sides. So just live with it or leave, allthough it's
not better elsewhere, welcome to CIVIL aviation.
Strike only means playing and prolonging their game. You never win.

[Danou_71]

is:

AVRO : 99 seats
A319 : 118 seats
A340 : 230 seats



Well, the last 6 avros SWU received, were converted from 118 seats configuration down to 99... I'm just wandering why:E ...


Moderator: would you be so kind to leave my post more than 1 hour, please??? Thank you...

[skypointer]

Hi guys

Here are some thoughts of mine:

Danou_71: Mabe there is some sinister plan behind the 99 seats in the AVRO. But they make perfect sense if you look at the legal minimum cabin crew. You can save quite a bit of money by eliminating one cabin crew member on every flight, every day. I assume you are familiar with the regulations.

Winglet74: Maybe SWISS, Aeropers and politics(:confused:) are really conspiring against the SWU pilots. But Maybe it is just an economic reality that, as Voeni put it, a regional feeder cannot pay the same salaries as the maincarrier. The choice is yours!

If you have trouble deciding what of the above is more probable, you could apply occam's razor. It says that, if you can choose between two explanations, the simpler one is usually correct. For a better description check: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor
Sorry now it's me who is wandering - off topic...

Another principle I had to learn the hard way is that statistics are usually biased. So let's check Winglet74's AVRO vs A319 comparison:
1) The A319 has 126 (not 118) seats in the SWISS version (will be modified to 149 next year)
2) There are no A319 pilots, as SWISS is operating the A319/320/321 as a family
3) The A320 has 168 seats and the A321 has 186 (will be modified to 199 next year)
4) Many A320FAM pilots fly the A330 in MFF
So instaed of adding some more biased statistics, I just ask some questions:
- Why is everybody talking about the A319?
- What would you say if somebody compared the AVRO with the A321 only? (99 vs 186 seats)
- What would your seat-capacity based salary comparison look like with the mathematically correct average seat capacity of 159 for the unmodified A320 family?
- How about after the cabin modification is finished by the end of 2007?
- What if you take A320/A330 MFF into consideration?
I guess seat-capacity based salaries might not be the best line of argumentation for SWU pilots after all...

The famous court rouling needs some explanation too. It basically says, that you must have the same salary if you fly the same or a similar (i.e. A320 & MD80 according to the court) aircraft within the same company. So SWISS had to (and did) pay the MD80 & A320Charter pilots the maincarrier salary. After the MD80 phase-out, SPA decided to distribute the additional money throughout its corps instead of paying the A320Charter pilots higher salaries. But it is entirely an interpretation of SPA that the AVRO and the A320 are similar in the sense of the rouling. The court never said anything like this!
Furthermore all SPA pilot have singed their SWU contract by the end of 2005. As SWU is a legally independent entity, they are not working in the same company as Aeropers pilots anymore and that's why, today, the court rouling is not applicable any more. You might argue that SWU is 100% owned by SWISS, but then SPA (and Aeropers) should ask for Lufthansa salaries, as SWISS is owned by LH now. Not practicable? No, I fear not. Not fair? Well, court roulings are justice and justice has nothing to do with fairness! Sorry folks.

So, instead of staging unreasonable salary claims, SPA should IMHO concentrate on improving the working conditions for SWU pilots, as SWU FDRs are simply unsafe if you ask me (e.g. 6 days duty/2 days off). If you start fighting for safety, you will certainly earn public (and my) sympathy. Even tough you will certainly not have to go on strike to achieve improvements in this context.

Now feel free to crucify me!

keep the blue side up!

[Dani]

Skypointer, I agree with you in most instances. I wouldn't also talking of a conspiracy. It's just much simpler to try to attack SPA pilots because Aeropers is much stronger - CEO Christoph Franz once agreed on this publicly.

Swiss as a company has a right to treat regional pilots differently than mainline pilots. I don't see a problem there. So, salary is a no-brainer.

BUT, as a company, you have certain ethics and moral principles. If you allow an A320FAM pilot to sleep for a certain amount of hours per night stop or for a certain amount of off days per month, you have to be convinced somewhat that this amount is necessary for the safe recovery of the crew. You cannot have two different ethics and moral principles for two different pilot groups in the same company (although they are artificially separated by two companies). It's clearly a matter of discrimination, if you look at the non-money factors in this equation.

If you wouldn't agree on that, you would have to say that those Avro pilots are somehow super-human, they need less rest time to recover. And the same applies for all the other non-salary issues: career planning, expenses, grow guarantee, bonus, insurances, pension founds etc.

These points all have to be changed, or Swiss will continue to discriminate the regional pilots, there will remain unrest and there will be the treat of legal battles.

Dani

[skypointer]

Hi Dani

We seem to agree on the FDR issue. As I stated before FDRs urgently need to be changed. If Aeropers pilots accept their new CLA, the differnce will not be very big anymore :yuk: and I think that SPA can achieve tha same conditions with negotiations. (at least 6/2 roasters would not be possible anymore)

I tend to disagree with you on the pension found and bonus. Those are clearly salary related matters. Under The new CLA Aeropers pilots buy themselves into the Managemant bonus program by giving 4% salary. I doubt if SPA pilot are abale to do that with their already not very comfortabe payscales! But if they want to do it anyway, Swiss should give them the chance.

Insurances and expenses are to be solved in a new SPA CLA. I guess it should be possible to achieve the same regulations as in the Aeropers CLA. Mr. Franz still speaks about replacing the whole AVRO fleet with Embraer 190. But it is clear that he needs to be sure that SPA is not endangering the future of SWU by unreasonable claims, court appeals and industrial action. Also the SWISS long haul growth guarantee depends on the condition that Aeropers accepts the new CLA. So it should be possible for SPA to negotiate simlar clauses in a new CLA. But one thing is clear for me: you cannot achieve growth by going on strike!

Carreer planning needs to be solved for sure. Unfortunately for SPA pilots they brought themselves in this position by declining the merged seniority list of the B-GAV in 2002. It would be nice to find a solution here, but I think it will be difficult as SWU is legally separated from SWISS. One thing is sure: A solution can only be found together with Aeropers. SPA has to convince Aeropers that they are not trying to rob their jobs. Unfortunately SPA does not seem to have realised this so far. Hey, if unions are fighting eachother there con only be one winner: the management! I guess we agree that this is not what we are looking for...

[Dani]

FDR are still way different! And look at the amount of leave days! Holiday definetly belongs to one's recovery time.

Bonus is clearly a company-wide achievement, as it might be very difficult to proof who is making the profit anyway (I'm not talking about the balance sheet, which is an art in itself). So bonus has to be given to both sides.

Same is valid for expansion. I think it really unique that a union has the guts to prescribe a management which target have to be fulfilled and how it has to be punished if they aren't. It's again a sign that Swiss is at ransom by Aeropers (no, it's not Swiss that is the winner!). But we know this very well from old Swissair days - 5 years ago we saw the result :ooh: <polemic intended>.

Pension fund and insurance: You might argue that this is part of the salary, but it is morally unjustifying to give the same profession in the same company different non-salary remunition.

Your recollection of the B-GAV is rather one-sided. This contract would have lead to the immediate dismissal of nearly half of the Crossair pilot group, that's why it was not acceptable. Trust in Aeropers is never possible for SPA. Who rob which job? Charter? Went to Aeropers. SPA has lost nearly 1000 pilots, while Aeropers' workforce is nearly as big as it used to be during the full blown expansion before the grounding. With this golden new GAV for Aeropers, they once again proof that they are in charge of the company and are never willing to give up any of its power. If Aeropers would be willing to solve the situation, they would fight for the same ethics and moral standards for their collegues - it is in their best interest, in the long run!

Dani

[N380UA]

This is the smartest, most constructive and civilized discussion between presumably ex-Swissair and ex-Crossair I've seen in a long time. Y'all have equally valid points and as skypointer points out it would be the smartest if SPA and Aeropers would work together. Seems that the differences aren’t too big at the end of the day.

[skypointer]

Back from a long working day...
I probably didn't express myself very well, Dani. I agree with you not only on the FDR issue but also on the holidays!
The bonus thingy is, as I discribed above, not for free. If SPA wants to give 4% salary to buy itself into the bonus system, that's fine with me too. You wouldn't have to discuss who is making profit, as the system is very simple: if management pays itself a bonus, it has to pay it to the pilots too, if mangement doesn't get anything, the pilots get nada. As simple as that. After all its the pilots who fly the aircraft. And the passengers pay for the flight, not for the management. :p
Now to your "polemic" part: Do you really think it was Aeropers, who was responsible that Swissair collapsed under debts of over 17 billion CHF? I think you are to smart for that, Dani! (no offense) What about the following approach: Swissair management unfortunately didn't listen to Aeropers or the company would still exist ;)
OK, no joke: What has to be the most important goal of a union? It's protecting the jobs of its members! That's what Aeropers is fighting for. SWISS at at ransom by Aeropers? You got it completely wrong buddy. Let me explain:
SWISS said that it was willing to expand its longhaul fleet but only if the expansion was profitable. For that, SWISS said, it needed more productivity (i.e. FDRs that allow more work plus concessions with the number of holidays).
Aeropers decided that it was willing to accept the deal, but they did not trust the management! They asked: What happens if we are accepting the higher productivity and SWISS decides to cancel the expansion? Right! There would be to many pilots and layoffs would be unaviodable... So they turned the tables on SWISS and said: OK, we accept higher productivity but SWISS has to guarantee a certain amount of growth! If SWISS was really willing to expand, the guarantee would be no big deal for them. (As it seems this was the case)
Now, guarantees can be broken. What then? You could sue the compay and wait for the court decision (That's the SPA way!) or you can settle the penalty for non-fulfillment of the contract already in the contract itself! (That's the Aeropers way! And the way business contracts are done today.) It has to cost them money, that's the language management understands!!!!
You think SWISS is at ransom by Aeropers? I think this is a showcase of far-sighted negotiation! (Something SPA could learn from Aeropers...<polemic intened too>) You cannot decide which of the two is more probable? Remember my old fried occam!
The infamous B-GAV: Well probably you are right that 50% of the Crossair pilots would have had to leave. The regional sector needed restrucuring - the maincarrier part already was restructured (with the loss of about 40% of the jobs). But look at the situation today. How many ex Crossair are left? 25%? And how about their carreer outlook? Bleak? If I were ex Crossair today, I would prefer the double number of jobs (50% left vs 25% left) with good carreer prospects and participation in the expansion (due to a common seniority list)! I am sure ex Crossair pilots would fly Airbusses today - and not only Charter. Saying no to the B-GAV was IMHO the biggest mistake SPA ever made. They didn't grab the chance and decided to gamble for the full enchilada and it blew up into their faces. Big time! :ugh:
You say that it was impossible to foresee this outcoming? Well you might want to check what I wrote in May 2003:
Fact is, that the court of arbitration ruling won't change a thing. You will get a new contract with Swiss Express after one year of remaining validity of your GAV under OR333. That's after transition to the new company. If Swiss Express decides not to accept SPA as social partner you might even get a single work contract. If the corps goes on strike this might give Swiss a very good excuse to downsize further - say to about 20 - 30 regional aircraft in order to get a reasonable size in relation to the mainline...
Ok, the company is called SWISS European - so I do not call myself a prophet just yet... :O
With this golden new GAV for Aeropers, they once again proof that they are in charge of the company and are never willing to give up any of its power. If Aeropers would be willing to solve the situation, they would fight for the same ethics and moral standards for their collegues - it is in their best interest, in the long run!

- The contract isn't that golden. Less money for more work...
- Aeropers is in charge of the situation not the company.
- Why should they give up their power? That's what a union lives from!
- Aeropers offered ex Crossair to help them to reach a new CLA. Not the same salaries, but decent working conditions - Because they realize it is in their best interest, in the long run!
- SPA spit them in the face by blaming them for the ****ty situation SPA manouvered itself in! Really sad...
Now I have to catch some sleep.
keep the blue side up!

[Voeni]

As previously stated, that's the most civilized discussion about the topic. Thank you guys, nice to hear such voices in here...

As you both stated your comments, there's not a lot to add. I tend to agree with skypointer, Aeropers is definitely in control of the situation, not the company, but can we blame them? That's what a union's good for!

We'll see how it works out, as SPA and the management are talking again. As experienced myself, there comes a situation where you have to take a step back in order to go forward in the future, although this means giving up some good cards...

A "merger" of SPA and Aeropers would definitely be the best for all pilots involved...

[gofer]

Agreed that its good that things seem - at least on the surface - to be moving towards a possible negotiation.

I can't necessarily agree with Voeni howver that a union merger would be good. Part of the conflict is the differences between the conditions of the 2 unions, and in all honnesty why would Aeropers help the Swiss Pilots get the same as they have. I say that because "the same" in managements eyes probably means Aeropers loosing some of its current advantages - to help make / keep the company profitable in the longer term. I Know, I know - the right thing to do would be for the upper management to also take some drastic cuts in benefits, unfortunately that is probably NOT going to happen - not in the short term or probably ever, they all have far to little honnesty or sense of fairness and team building ability.

A dozen or more mergers and acquisitions in my career have tought me that often the best move is an unexpected sidestep. Watch if it comes, because it could be a great improvement for the shorthaul guys not to get out manoevered by the so called management. Also don't forget the point that whatever is negotiated should be partially retroactive for the current and departed colleagues - and it should take precidence over management bonuses - especially if payout is spread out over 2 or 3 years (good idea taxwise).

Swiss must however currently be in a very tight spot for short haul pilots, with high attrition rates (more have announced leaving in the last few days (for many the RIGHT career move for certain - a much quicker path to the LEFT, if you get my drift for those in middle age)) and the work stress and sickness levels of the others is so high that quite a few flights were cancelled in the last few days or flown by bigger aircraft that were not full !!

Methinks that a little more of the "working strictly to rule" and perhaps getting both the Cabin Crew union Kapers and Aeropers to join in - using the arguments of security in times of stress and that this is only to help the management understand the pressures, so to get a solution ratified by all concerned ASAP or even sooner, would probably get to a quick result now that the bosses are starting to realise that a non-solution is probably their demise - as there are more pilot jobs out there than management ones !!!
Keep up the pressure guys and gals - and don't stop looking for other alternatives - Emirates:ok: , Cathy:O , China Air:bored: , Kingfisher:* , or even Easy:rolleyes: or Ryan := .

Good Luck and stay :cool: .

[Aslan]

Me thinks gofer's arguments make a lot of sense and seems to summarise the situation in a nut shell :D - even the smilelys.... :)

[Danou_71]

Hey guys,

I'ts been a year now that you went on strike:D But now, what did you get:( ? From what I heard, not much and your little SPA is gone leaving you alone with your brand new IPG or IGP whatever there called:yuk: anyway these are management's puppets.

Good luck!
D_71