Tips for the perfect landing? [Archive]

slim_slag

24th Sep 2006, 22:13

Hey guys,
I have around 10.5 hours in the piper warriorRule number one is come in at the right speed. For a steady wind, in a warrior with full flaps the book value is, from memory, 63knts. If you are solo it will be less. IT IS NOT MORE. Nail that speed, or whatever the book value is. Ignore anybody who tells you to come in faster, and if they are an instructor then you already know more than they do.

Then read the first thread cited above and take note of what Chuck Ellsworth says.

The final moments of landing a plane is about the only thing about flying that is not immediately intuitive. It's something that doesn't come easy to most, so don't be too upset if you don't find it simple to do, it takes time.

GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU

24th Sep 2006, 22:40

I think Slim is stressing the importance of a good approach. He is exactly right. The chances of pulling a good landing from a bad approach are not very good. When in doubt; bin it and go around.

Also; remember you have command of an aeroplane. That point is well worth remembering.

pilotho

24th Sep 2006, 22:44

a good approach is definetly essential and getting the right speed.

i rememer when i was learning to land, i never seem to flare early enough as i was staring at the ground. best thing for height judgement is to look at the horizon, ever since i was taugh that, i got almost every landing almost perfect.

anyway, remember to get the speed right otherwise u would be floating forever...keeping that too long, u may not have enough speed for a go around!!!!

Saab Dastard

24th Sep 2006, 22:48

I've mentioned it in a similar thread before:

Aim at the ground and miss as long as possible.

Simple ;)

SD

rudestuff

24th Sep 2006, 23:30

i agree. flare to maintain level, and once your nosewheel is definately up, just let it settle.
The faster you are, the longer you'll float and the smoother it'll be. Id say try it fast on a long runway, then come in progressively slower until it becomes one continuous movement. Eventually you'll be stopping on the piano keys. less frustrating I found, and in no time, you'll be wondering what all the fuss was about

Boy_phantom

25th Sep 2006, 00:30

Warriors and Archers both love the float!!
I find get a/c set up nice and early, reduce power to get white arc and take first stage flap and trim a/c just after mid down wind, aim to be at 75kts just prior to turning base (normally I use 1300 - 1500rpm for the base and finals).
Turn base take 2nd stage flap and airspeed 75kts, turn finals (not below 70kts) pick your landing spot and keep that in one place in the window, take final flap and reduce speed to 65kts, adjust power as necessary, short finals 60kts bringing it back to 55kts adjust gaze to end of runway crossing the fence and flare. Try to keep a little power on and trickle it back little by little aiming to have throttle closed at the same time the wheels touch down. Takes a little practice but it'll get there eventually.

But to be really sure check it out with your instructor and check the manual for accurate numbers.... do what he/it says.

good luck.

Mike Cross

25th Sep 2006, 08:47

Don't believe everything you're being told on here. In particular don't try flying a fast approach and letting it float, that's a recipe for a bounce, a bust noseleg and prop and a shock-loaded engine.

There isn't a "right" approach speed for every situation, however the speeds in the POH are definitely the right starting point. Here are a few examples where you might depart slightly from them.

1. Sunny day. Trees on the approach are likely to cause sink, a ploughed field is likely to cause lift, causing you to move the approach speed a couple of knots up or down so you get to the numbers at the right speed.
2. Strong headwind. The headwind will reduce as you near the ground, causing your IAS to reduce and your arrival to be too slow, again you may anticipate by adding a couple of knots to the approach.
3. Loading. A lightly loaded aircraft needs less speed on the approach. Remember the book figures are usually calculated on still air and at or near MAUW.
4. Runway slope. You'll lose a lot more energy in the flare if the runway is sloping uphill and a lot less if it is sloping away from you. Yesterday I landed at Oaksey Park where the threshold of 11 has a significant upslope and the approach is over a valley. Bags of power needed to be added to prevent plummeting. On an uphill runway don't take all the power off until you are flying parallel to the runway with your wheels a couple of feet above it. By contrast you can have a lot of fun watching people trying to land on 03 at Popham. This has high trees on the approach and a downslope but it is quite long. Some people float for ever and eventually go around when they've used up two thirds of the available length and still haven't found the ground.

When you find a sure-fire recipe for making the perfect landing please let me know so I can do them too.:)

Mike

Microfright

25th Sep 2006, 09:31

I generally find the quality of my landings is inversely proportional to the number of people watching.

bookworm

25th Sep 2006, 09:37

Does anyone have any tips on how to make the 'perfect landing' ie a nice smooth one.

Do a thousand of them. Two or three will be really smooth. :)

Dr Eckener

25th Sep 2006, 09:50

Fly the correct speed and the correct profile.

When you flare your job is to stop the thing from landing for as long as possible. It will land when it is ready, not when you think it should.

Farmer 1

25th Sep 2006, 10:02

I reckon I have made two perfect landings. At a quick estimate, that's rather less than 0.001% of my attempts. It never stopped me trying for a third one, though.

My advice is, never be satisfied by anything less than perfect. Good luck.

the dean

25th Sep 2006, 10:36

Hey guys,

I have around 10.5 hours in the piper warrior 1.5 of which is solo. Does anyone have any tips on how to make the 'perfect landing' ie a nice smooth one. My landings are ok, sometimes i might float a bit and sometimes they seem good. What I want to do is get them nice and smooth consistently, weather permitting!

Do you have any tips on how to do this or is it really just a case of practice makes perfect?

no such thing...but its a nice myth..and something to aspire to..

there are good landings, bad landings and greasers...the latter is as close as you will get..each one is different...even for people doing it day in day out.remember the last time someone tried to plant you in a large jet??...it happens....just as it does in a 172 training....

but it gives you something to aspire to and work towards.

practice helps but just when you think you've nailed it..along comes a day with windshear or turbulance and thats followed by a satisfying feeling or humility...your choice..so nail that speed to the correct numbers..get the rate or descent right and practice..

i have a book called ''make better landings'' by alan bramson.have a look for it...might give you some help....:ok:

he autographed it '' to *** who has never made a bad landing ''....so even if i do....i have a certificate to prove that i do'nt do it..!!!!:}

Mark 1

25th Sep 2006, 10:51

To paraphrase Somerset Maugham:

There are only threee rules to making a perfect landing.........

The only problem is nobody knows what they are.

Windy Militant

25th Sep 2006, 11:43

The only problem is nobody knows what they are.

Not forgeting That if they do figure any two of them out they Change! ;)

red3

25th Sep 2006, 15:17

My advice would be:

Do a taildragger conversion, then land the spamcan the same way!

tonyhalsall

25th Sep 2006, 15:47

Use the correct approach speed as per POH
Be stable and unhurried in the approach
Don't transit straight from approach to flare - Remember the hold off
A good approach will invariably result in a good landing

Johnm

25th Sep 2006, 18:16

Read this booK

http://www.amazon.com/Making-Perfect-Landings-Light-Airplanes/dp/0813804388

It's called Making perfect Landings in Light Airplanes by Ron Fowler.

It's very good and I read it first about the time I had your level of experience

EastMids

25th Sep 2006, 20:45

The Warrior/Archer can IMHO be quite heavy on the elevators in the round-out/flare, particularly with only a front-seater. This can result in the pullback required to round and and flare being perhaps greater than ideal and possibly sometimes making it a little difficult to do smoothly. I usually wind on a bit of nose-up trim on fairly short final - with a bit of practice its quite possible to transition from in-trim to slight nose up trim without upsetting the final approach gradient - and then rather than pulling back the round out/flare can become slightly more a case of reducing forward pressure.

I will admit that this practice was offered to me by one long-time instructor some years ago, but has also been frowned on by others I've encountered during checkouts, etc. who say once trimmed for final the trim should be left alone.

WARNING - if you try this, DO NOT let go of the column and do it gently. I would recommend practicing at altitude rather than trying it a few hundred feet off the ground and suddenly finding the aircraft pitching up at low power!

ShyTorque

25th Sep 2006, 21:42

Roll over.

All the previous advice is rubbish.

The correct way to make a perfectly smooth landing is to come neatly to a hover then gently lower the collective lever.

(P.S. You are in the wrong type of aircraft).

;)

Whirlygig

25th Sep 2006, 22:04

Tried that ShyT, didn't work! Still came down with a thud and a thump and a funny expression on my instructor's face as his found his loose filling!

Cheers

Whirls

ShyTorque

25th Sep 2006, 22:11

You are supposed to do it with your mouth closed... :oh:

Hovering, that is..

Whirlygig

25th Sep 2006, 22:12

No, I still have to do that kiddie-concentration thing of sticking my tongue in my cheek!

Cheers

Whirls

Final 3 Greens

26th Sep 2006, 05:03

East Mids

Please note that I am not trying to score points with this post, but to add some balance for any low houred PPLs reading.

Although I understand where you are coming from (and I believe that some autoland systems on airliners do the same thing), one needs to understand the pitch up forces in the event of a go around.

I have been known to trim the PA28 to 65kts on short final when light and even that will result in a pronounced nose up attitude if full power is applied, so trimming beyond this point (which I understand your post to imply) is not something to do without serious consideration of the practicalities arising in the event of a baulked landing or other event leading to a G/A.

In the event of the pilot being unable to counter the pitch up quickly enough, there is a high probability of departure stall, which is unlikely to be survivable.

In a PA28 with a C of G towards the front limit one must be prepared to pull the yoke all the way back in the flare and keep pulling even when the yoke gets to the latter part of the travel and starts to move upwards as well as backwards.

Some aircraft, with "winterized" high capacity batteries in the engine bay required a specially firm pull, so its always good to note the location of the battery during the walkaround.

FLCH-SPD

26th Sep 2006, 08:31

I've been flying the Archer II/III for nearly 3 years, and I've found that the key to a smooth landing is definately correct speed control! You certainly do not want to be going faster than 65kts on short final because it will almost certainly float, or touch down flat.

A normal circuit for me goes something like this:

Downwind: 2000 RPM, 90kts clean

Base Leg: 1500 RPM, Speed in to white arc, 25deg of flap, descend to maintain 80kts.

Final: Full flap, reduce to 70kts

Short final: trim for 65 kts, adjust power to maintain profile.

Chesty Morgan

26th Sep 2006, 11:37

What's a perfect landing?

It's when you touch down at the right speed and at the right place. Once you can do that, and there are many professionals who still can't, then you can start to finesse your technique to get a smoother landing. But ALWAYS land at the right speed in the right place first and foremost...ALWAYS.

When you flare your job is to stop the thing from landing for as long as possible. It will land when it is ready, not when you think it should.

I really hope that was a joke because if it wasn't, one day, somebody will be pulling you out of the hedge at the far end of the runway.

Final 3 Greens

26th Sep 2006, 14:05

Chesty

As a building leaping ATPL, you have probably fogotten your mere PPL days :}

I think the technique is not literal (I hope so, or it would involve smooching along in ground effect with the right level of power set), but rather taught by instructors to try and prevent studes and others burying the 150 into terra firma nosewheel first.

Even whilst attempting this technique, I bet that a fair amount still touch down with a little excess airspeed. See my earlier comments about the extent of the backward "pull" required to land a forward c of g PA28 for example. How many people get the yoke back into their chests in the flare, I wonder?

Firm, but consistent, arrivals in the touchdown zone tend to appear a little later in the syllabus IIRC :}, unless a short grass strip is involved.

I learned on 1600m of tarmac and certainly couldn't touch down consistently in the right area until I moved to a short grass strip and some kind soul showed me how.

I ain't defending it, but that's my experience.

I didn't really learn to land anything like well until a kindly TRE showed me how in a sim, to be fair he was in a different league of instructional capability to anything I ever encountered in the private flying world.

To this day, I have total respect for the standards required by the big European airlines and was lucky to see the gulf between that and PPL pottering about. Made me realise that it was important for us amateurs to develop a professional attitude, the most important part of which was a very realistic view of our own capability.

Chesty Morgan

26th Sep 2006, 18:20

As a building leaping ATPL, you have probably fogotten your mere PPL days

Oi, I'm not that old! I hope it's still in there somewhere:}

I accept your point about not wanting to hammer the nose wheel in first. But surely teaching the right techniques from the word go would be far more constructive to a good landing? Fly the approach at the right speed, land at the right speed and you will vastly reduce the chances of a destructive arrival! I don't know I've never been an instructor.

I regularly fly with First Officers whose sole aim when landing is a smooth touchdown. They fly 10 knots fast down the approach, they do not reduce power in the flare and consequently spend a rather excessive time at about 5 feet. Sometimes they achieve a smooth touch down. Most of the time, and I mean about 90%, they end up either:

A. Running out of runway or;
B. Smashing the poor lady in anyway.

3 times in as many weeks I've had to take control and go-around; Twice for loooong flares which would have resulted in a touch down outside the TD zone; Once for a looong flare which touched down just inside the TD zone but because they still had power on they bounced!

I'm talking about a 30 ton turboprop (Dash 8 Q400) with not very good brakes but I think the same principal can and should be applied to ANY aeroplane and any runway.

We fly into a range of airports with strip lengths varying from 1100m to 4000m. Now, with 4000m to play with you can get away with this technique, it's still not right though. The worrying thing is when you try the same technique, out of habit, into a shorter strip which I believe is what you're alluding to in your last post. You have to land in the touch down zone or the P45 will be looming over the horizon just behind the hedge.

To the original poster. Don't be lured into the fact that a good landing is a smooth one. A good landing is at the right speed in the right place. There are 2 principal reasons for this:

A. At the right speed you will stop in a shorter distance.
B. The aeroplane will stop much better using the brakes. So extending the flare, in an attempt to touch down smoothly, is reducing the effectiveness of your stopping ability and reducing the amount of room you have to stop.

Should anything go wrong, like a brake failure for instance, you will have given yourself the best chance you can. Whereas a long, fast but smooth landing will have drastically reduced your safety margins and increased the potential for damage to you and your aeroplane...but hey it WAS a good landing wasn't it?!

A perfect landing is at the right speed, in the right place and it's a Fonz (smooth greaser!) but they rarely happen, unless you fly a 146, much to the chagrin of many a pilot around the world.

shortstripper

26th Sep 2006, 18:38

Yep, I agree with that.

The perfect landing on 2000 yards of runway in a C150 may be a beautifully held off "kiss the tarmac, squeeker". However, try that on a short strip and the dent in the far hedge may slightly detract from that perfect touchdown! :E

SS

Final 3 Greens

26th Sep 2006, 21:36

Chesty

I agree with verything that you say in your post and hope that low houred pilots take your message on board.

Crash one

26th Sep 2006, 21:56

Interesting thread, I'm not sure how to make a good landing, but I do know how to make a bad one.
1 Flare too high at 10ft then push too much & wheelbarrow it in.
2 Peddle the rudder about & end up drifting sideways.
I went solo on Friday & did a greaser, I think it was self preservation that kicked in, I'm quite sure it wasn't me.

Hampshire Hog

26th Sep 2006, 23:29

Lots has been said on here. I'll add just a little - as a humble PA28 pilot.

This plane flies like an airliner. How many consistent landings have you experienced as a PAX in the back of a 737/A320 etc? I remember sitting in the jump seat of a 737 one night, going into LHR. After a relatively heavy landing, during which several overhead locker doors apparently opened in the cabin, the captain turned to me as we turned back on the taxyway and said 'The good thing about heading back this way [the opposite direction to landing] is that we can watch everyone else stuff it up!'.

The instructors at my flying club are mostly retired airline ATPLs with many many years of experience. Their landings in the PA28 show a degree of consistency, but are far from 100% consistent. The best advice one gave me one day was: work the throttle, keep on top of the speed and approach path, and keep working for the landing. It might fly like an airliner, but it doesn't have the inertia, so you have to keep adjusting [small adjustments - if it's a large one - go around], again and again.

Don't be too hard on yourself. As you gain experience, sometimes you will grease it on, sometimes you will land harder and sometimes you will bounce a little. If you bounce a lot, go around. If you are running out of room, go around. Either way, the incidence of messing it up will become less and less, but there will always be that one. I say again 'go around'!

HH

Confabulous

27th Sep 2006, 00:55

Surely we're looking for safe, not smooth? All this unnessecary holdoff stuff is just going to let you float forever.

Technique? I'm a lowly student, but the easiest way for me is thus:

1. Stable approach
2. Pick aimpoint on runway.
3. Slide eyes down to far end of runway on short final (for peripheral vision)
4. Hold everything until the picture gets to eye-height.
5. Throttle idle, hold pitch attitude and wait for the squeak and rumble.

Easy enough :E

NB: I can't stress peripheral vision enough. Altitude is not really relevant, but glidepath is.

ChrisVJ

27th Sep 2006, 07:32

I have never really understood this preoccupation with landings. While I realise they are a necessity once each flight, the statistics show that they are the second most dangerous and first 'most often' phase of flight where things can go wrong. As such I practise a maximum of one landing per flight and count it as extremely successful if I don't have to fix anything after, (although I am often told by the peanut gallery that I actually do two or even three landings per flight.)

worldpilot

27th Sep 2006, 08:03

To me though, the perfect landings are the landings I've done and really felt comfortable. I beleive that there are no better landings than the landings you do. Bring that plane down safely and that it. I took a very good friend of mine who is just finising his PPL training for a ride and he said "boy, your landings are really good". I personally strive for the stall-down landing.:)

WP

Piltdown Man

27th Sep 2006, 19:24

Amongst others:
1. Fly the correct speed. Ignore the well intentioned numbers mentioned above. Look in the books for the stall speed in landing config. and execute the final approach at that speed, times 1.3. The ASI will give a clue at Max Landing weight in so much that the bottom of the white arc will be the stall speed in landing config.
2. Trim the plane.
3. Don't mess about too much with the attitude or power. Try and leave them constant until they actually need altering.
4. When you flare, look at the far end of the strip. Let your brain do the flaring, autonomously.
5. Finger tip pressure on the control column, no white knuckles!
6. Any landing in the right place at the right speed (right way up) without too much of wallop is a brilliant landing. Greasy landings done at high speed or too low a speed and/or in the wrong place are those performed by w:mad:ers.
Have fun practicing!
PM

IRRenewal

27th Sep 2006, 19:47

My advice would be:
Do a taildragger conversion, then land the spamcan the same way!
As in aiming for a nice three pointer every time? That will make you popular.

effortless

27th Sep 2006, 20:04

Find a long, wide runway.

Final 3 Greens

27th Sep 2006, 21:08

Piltdown Man

From the flight manual I'm looking at, the PA28-181 stall speed (full flap) is 49kias.

49 * 1.3 = 63.7

When they put digital speedos on with a resolution of .1 kts, I'll fly her at 63.7, until then, with middle aged eyesight and a small analogue ASI I'll make do with 65 - is that all right by you? ;)

Chesty Morgan

27th Sep 2006, 22:02

Or you could try Vs x 1.23 which I believe is the modern(!) way of calculating Vref;) :ok:

Final 3 Greens

28th Sep 2006, 08:09

Vs 1.23.....

60.27knots .... mmmm

Personally I'd be happier trimming for 65 and then easing back to 60 over the fence using back pressure for a light aircraft.

60 "feels" a little further towards the back of the drag curve than I would be comfortable trimming for, as a go around might provide a sharp nose up pitching on the application of full power.

slim_slag

28th Sep 2006, 08:20

Or you could try Vs x 1.23 which I believe is the modern(!) way of calculating Vref;) :ok:Not in a warrior, it's 1.3 by regulation. I also think your landing comments are also more relevant to non-light aircraft operations. From observations made when sitting in the back, airline type aircraft do not land in the same way as a warrior :)

slim_slag

28th Sep 2006, 08:34

Personally I'd be happier trimming for 65 and then easing back to 60 over the fence using back pressure for a light aircraft.The problem with these little tips is that what happens if there is no fence? Or if you are at a big airport with the fence a long way from the numbers? What are you doing looking at the fence anyway, shouldn't your eyes be looking somewhere else? How do you know you have eased back to 60, shouldn't your eyes be looking outside at this phase of flight and not at the instruments?

Best thing to do is trim for 63 (or whatever the correct speed is) some way out on final, and maintain that pitch by looking outside all the way down until you are ready to flare. When do you start to flare? Well, that depends, but it usually would be around 2 seconds before you would hit the ground if you didn't flare.

Other tips and tricks on when to flare appreciated :)

Chesty Morgan

28th Sep 2006, 16:26

Not in a warrior, it's 1.3 by regulation.

I didn't realise that. I know that Vref for the 146 I used to fly was calculated at 1.3Vs. But the Q400 Vref is calculated using 1.23Vs. I believe it's because they now use more computery type technology to calculate it more accurately.

I also think your landing comments are also more relevant to non-light aircraft operations...

Absolutely right, although I still think the same principles can and should be applied to any aeroplane using relative size strips. It's all geared towards providing you with a safety margin. I agree that landing a 150 at Manchester, for instance, and trying for a greaser wont bite you 99% of the time, but one day it will. Conversely, trying to grease a Q400 (bloody hard to do anyway) at Paris with 4k to play with wont bite you 99% of the time. Besides it's good practice and airmanship to land in the right place. The touch down zone is there for a reason and I will rue the day I put my nose wheel into the mud at the far end of the runway because I've landed long.

airline type aircraft do not land in the same way as a warrior

Q400? Just like a bloody big Cessna:}

Final 3 Greens

28th Sep 2006, 17:16

The problem with these little tips is that what happens if there is no fence?

Not a tip, just a preference.

Fence = colloquial term for the 50' threshold crossing height from which the landing performance is calculated.

Trim speed is 64kias, I use 65 'cos there's no marking at 64.

Slim, time to take some contra-literal tabs :}

tmmorris

28th Sep 2006, 20:19

airline type aircraft do not land in the same way as a warrior

From my limited experience (half a dozen landings in a 777 sim) it's not that different. You just don't hold off completely - you arrest the descent but let the wheels touch shortly thereafter.

Tim

SkyHawk-N

28th Sep 2006, 20:24

Here is a perfect landing....well nearly!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkJtBrnk2Pw

slim_slag

29th Sep 2006, 10:57

Fence = colloquial term for the 50' threshold crossing height from which the landing performance is calculated.Hang on a mo, how many fifty foot fences have you ever seen? Even the Berlin Wall was only 12 feet high, where have you been hanging out?

Call me a hopeless romantic, but the 'fence' is the ricketty barb wired structure that was around the farmer's field back in the days when you would come in with your biplane at the heading which gave you a headwind. There may have been pieces of fence missing, probably due to people coming in at greater than book speed, and starting the flare at a silly height and rolling through the piece of fence at the opposite end.

So you say you start your pitch back to 60 when at 50ft. Back of a fag packet calculations say that approaching at 65knts on a three degree glideslope you are 1000ft out. That works out to be ten seconds out. Count ten seconds, it's a long time, far too early to be starting your flare.

If you aren't starting your flare and just messing with your speed, then you are too close to the field be finally adjusting your pitch, you should be stable a lot further out than 1000ft (or ten seconds).

IMHO of course.

A student should be trimming it up for 63knts (or whatever) a couple of miles out and should "cross the fence" at that speed. If you start your flare two seconds before you would hit the ground you are just over 10 feet AGL which seems far more sensible. 50ft AGL is too far out for a student to be messing with pitch and it will inevitably end up in tears. I am all ears for other suggestions.

S-Works

29th Sep 2006, 11:15

I think I have to give up flying now, I did the 1st and therefore only perfect landing in 2000hrs of flying last night in the chippy, perfect approach speed, perfect flare and perfect 3 pointer touching down on the numbers and coming to a perfect short smooth stop. my passenger only realised we were on the ground when we stopped. :)

I think it best of I dont push my luck any more.....:O

Final 3 Greens

29th Sep 2006, 11:33

Slim

Were you p&ssed when you wrote your last post :}

Only a pillock (or inexperienced pilot) would drag a PA28 down a three degree glideslope from afar, if the engine quits, you won't make the threshold.

And I'm not talking about flaring, I'm talking about slowing the aircraft down to 60 knots by holding some extra back pressure instead of trimming very late in the approach. I believe that this is in line with Piper's advice for handling the PA28.

60kts = appx 27 metres per second and to get from 50 feet to 5 feet (at -600fpm) takes approx 4.5 seonds, which means you start the flare about 122m into the runway and touchdown in perhaps another 60-90m, following which you stop fairly smartly.

A an 2 mile final ?????????????? My last PA28 operating base gave a 1/2 nm final due to a CATZ, which is more than adequate for a SEP if you set up base correctly, as you said "From observations made when sitting in the back, airline type aircraft do not land in the same way as a warrior ."

Bose

Congratulations, I've never got near that smooth a landing, the best you can say aboutm ine is that they are safe.

slim_slag

29th Sep 2006, 12:33

no need to be rude F3G. I could debate your points but I think I will do something else instead :)

Final 3 Greens

29th Sep 2006, 13:27

Slim

Banter my friend, not rudeness, I value our debates :ok:

Boingy

29th Sep 2006, 15:39

I'm suprised no one has said this yet...

If you walk away from it it is a good landing, if you can get in the crate to fly it again it's a brilliant landing surely that's the realy factor? Bringing yourself in alive and giving the clapped out Warrior back to the club for the next hapless victim, I mean student.

Chuck Ellsworth

29th Sep 2006, 16:22

Man, I had forgotten that I typed so much to get across a simple message.

Landings are all about " seeing " the only time " feeling " comes into the equasion is when the wheels touch the runway.

QDMQDMQDM

29th Sep 2006, 17:07

Find a long, wide runway.

No, find a narrow, short runway. The incentives to a decent landing are much stronger and, in particular, the imperative to good speed control on the approach.

I rarely go near tarmac and usually screw up a landing on a long, wide runway now. In the Super Cub, I get the feeling that I am a helicopter hovering above these vast acres of tarmac and then I realise that although I am close to a helicopter, I still am not quite one! Crunch.

QDM

Piltdown Man

1st Oct 2006, 09:31

Final 3 - Your numbers are fine and I assume that the manual you have is appropriate for your aircraft. I'll also not argue about a knot or two. But, as I'm sure you'll agree, each aircraft type and version has its own specific numbers and these are listed its handbook. Therefore, from a practical viewpoint, we should start with the books and then apply the information contained during flight. It is also important to use the speeds for your own specific aircraft obtained from its manual and not ones from Pprune ("Oh that's Okay your Honour. I used the performance data I got from an internet forum!"). I'll have to agree that from memory the stall speeds for most of the PA28 family is of that sort of order. But for many types, that is not the case. I think we have a duty to help people to do things properly, especially those who are learning!

PM