Flying in Europe...Big deal?

[Apgrau]

Hey all, just thought I might get some handy piece of advice by starting this thread. Mainly wanting to hear from pilots who have been in Europe and flown around there, whether for training,work or even recreational.
I have a frozen ATPL and I will soon be doing my IFR, hopefully heading to Europe with 500 odd hours..I know it ain't much but its better than a bare CPL with 250h!! I hope it makes a difference..
To complete my JAR licence I need to sit a CPL/ME-CIR flight test and have a minimum of 15h in European airspace. So I dare to ask..What are my chances of managing that in the minimum amount of hours? How does the airspace there compare to our's? Is every country different?
Am I better off to do a full IFR in Europe instead of converting it?
I might have to complete an MCC course too before I can apply to the airlines, just so my resume is more competitive...Any advice?
Thanx in advance, hope there is someone out there who can help!:ok:

[haughtney1]

OK here goes....(came to the UK in 2000 with a NZ CPL/IR..and now in my hands I have a JAR ATPL with a fistfull of heavy jet hours)

1st thing, do your IR in Oz and convert it, secondly yes, you will need to do an MCC, as it is a requirement of the JAR ATPL.
One last thing, there is the 14 exams you need to do:ok:

Hope this helps

[Cloud Cutter]

G'day H1

Couple of questions (just out of curiosity).

Do you have to have a UK passport, or will airlines take you with just a work visa? I believe they can offer sponsorship for long term employment, but not sure they do?

Does it make any difference if you have an ATPL or is the process much the same?

Cheers mate.

[greenslopes]

G'day CC
No,to your first rock hudson(query) most airlines require you to be able to fly throughout the EU and will not sponsor(having said that when the well runs dry they will start sponsoring)
As far as the ATPL goes it doesn't make any difference or at least didn't when i made the move(2000). I arrived with >5000 hrs on nothing heavier than Do 228 so had to do the 14 odd exams.Still you should be able to knock those and the ifr flt test over in three months,just means a bit of hard graft.
Good luck

[019360]

Good luck with your endeavours. You will learn a lot in Europe that will make your future career a lotgmore enjoyable. Winter operations,very high traffic densities, unfamiliar airports, ATC capabilities ranging from the brilliant down to the sub-pedestrian. Well worth the effort and the steep learning curve.

[haughtney1]

Get a break over here and you'll scratch you head as to why you need 2500 hours to fly a ****ty Bandit or Metro.

Soooooooooooooooooo true its bloody frightening

[Killer Loop]

Sorry Apgrau to hijack your post but I am in a similar position. I'm in PNG but seriously thinking about heading back to the UK. I have dual nationality(UK/NZ), PNG/NZ/Aussie CPL with Aussie ATPL subjects and about 2000 hours but mostly just on TU C206. Also lucky enough to have the money for the 14 exams etc plus MCC,MEIR conversion. What I'm worried about is my age. At 37 would it be a bit late. Haughtney, would like to hear what you think mate.

[Aussie]

Since were on topic, anyone with the exp. care to comment....

better to go over with the bare 3-400hrs or hang around oz get some time up and then go over? Currently doing the JAA ATPLs

Aussie

[Popgun]

Aussie,

I recommend you get a bit more time before you make the move (especially if you have an opportunity for or are currently getting twin time in Oz. Shake a tree in the UK and a significant number of guys/girls with 400 hrs fall out...

If, however, you're not flying much then I say make the move now...the European lo-co market is still in growth and IMHO you are much more likely to crack that first jet gig in the northern hemisphere.

There are obviously a lot of variables to the decision (career priorities, finances, family situation, lifestyle desires etc) but i wouldn't be flying a shiny 744 if i hadn't taken a deep breath and made the move in '99. Its been the best calculated risk I ever took.

PG

[Apgrau]

Good day H1, thanx for the replies all you guys.
I have dual citizenship, so I can work and live in Europe. I have done my 12month military service when in Greece so no holdbacks there. I speak fluent Greek and English and quite good french. I have passed 5 JAR's so far and hopefuly I will have them all by March.
I want to get my IFR out of the way too so I can go and convert my licence soon after that.
Should I be looking at places like OAT where I can convert my licence and do an MCC and maybe a type rating if needed? They are very expensive but is their reputation worth it?
Or should I try and minimise the cost as much as possilbe and go to Egnatia in Greece for the conversion and look around for an MCC elsewhere.
Has anybody here gone to Europe and not trained in the UK? What if my licence was issued in Greece instead of the UK?Would it be looked down on?

Thanx again for any replies I might get...

[haughtney1]

Killer,

To be honest...you'll run into a bit of resistance from certain quarters regarding your age. However given the fact that you have over 2000hrs and experience from a challenging environment, I reckon you would stand a good chance of landing a job. As ever though its a risk...hope this helps:ok:

[Killer Loop]

Thanks for that H1 and Airbusa. Still pretty confused as to the best thing, guess I've just got to take the leap. I could always come back to "paradise".:ok:

[Centaurus]

My guess is you will need to have at least $50,000 Aust dollars up your sleeve to cover costs which are horrific. Better still, $75,000 to cover six months unemployment while you attempt exams. But it is worth it unless you are content to flog up and down the east coast of OZ on night freight in a Metro for most of your career.

[Grivation]

With <500 hours on a certified multi crew aircraft (metro doesn't count) you'll need to -

Pass 14 JAR ATPL exams
Training as required to get to CPL standard
Initial CPL checkride
10 hours IR training (mandatory)
Initial IR checkride
Class 1 medical

With >500 hours on multi crew aircraft it's -

Pass 14 JAR ATPL exams
Initial ATPL checkride on the aircraft you've got the 500 hours on OR
Complete a type rating + ATPL checkride
Class 1 medical

Hope that helps

[neville_nobody]

But it is worth it unless you are content to flog up and down the east coast of OZ on night freight in a Metro for most of your career.
That is assuming you can get all the experience to meet the minimums for that job!! Couple of thousand hours, 500 multi plus 100 night!!
Cheaper option would be to do the JAR exams in Australia then type rating overseas. Mob in Perth are offering to do them not sure of cost.

[podbreak]

Apgau,
Haven't read most peoples replies but; A european passport really is a must. If you've got one, I'd suggest you do the theory exams and MCC in the UK. Get a bar job or something that pays the rent and do them there, the cost difference is significant. It'll also allow you to figure out whether you really want to live there! Landing yourself a gig is also different from oz. No there aren't the same stupendous experience requirements as we have here now, but you still have to have the substance to make a good crewmember. Don't expect to waltz in and demand your 3 bars, they'll prod you the same way the airlines do here. However, the absence of bush flying may be attractive to you (personally I love every minute I'm in the sticks, but hey, whatever floats you boat). Good luck, you'll love flying in Europe.:ok:

[onya]

I got my MCC on the basis of the time I had on a single pilot certified turbo-prop a couple of years ago. All time was in dedicated 2 crew operations. All I had to provide was evidence (letter from company) and the MCC was issued. Perhaps things have changed.
Onya

[Taildragger67]

At 37 would it be a bit late.

As of 01 October, any form of age-related discrimination will be illegal... so f'rinstance it'll be not-on to put an upper age in an ad.

You got the hours and experience they want, then you get a look-in regardless of age. Or so the law will say.

However a parallel might be cadet schemes. Australia has had such a law for some time and the QF scheme specifically states no upper limit (and I've heard of oldies like us getting in); BA's cadet blurb, however, states an upper limit of 36 (at the moment).

Good luck, son; wish I had what you had to give it a go. :ok:

And re passports: WRT working in the UK at all, you'll need either an EU/EEA passport OR a 'proper' (ie. not working-holiday) visa (eg. indefinite leave or ancestry) but then the employer might put extra restrictions on due to ops (eg. flying extra-EU where the whole crew might need visas, they might baulk at having to deal with a non-EU).

It might be worth putting something up on the Questions forum; I have heard more than one antipodean over the tannoy on Ryanair so they might be able to contribute re their passport/visa situation.

[Killer Loop]

G'day Taildaragger, thanks for the post, very encouraging. I have a UK passport plus lucky enough to have a house over there. Will put something on Questions after work tonight.

[frangatang]

You will still have to pay for your own rating over here.Read a serialised article in PILOT magazine by a young lad who is paying for the fully integrated course and is nearly with easijet.The situation has still not arisen where the airlines snap you up and hand out an endorsement. I hope you realise how expensive it is here(UK and Ireland0,the overall tax burden is punitive,but someone has to pay to save africa, wars,refugees,dole bludgers,single mothers etc.

[WLGHilton]

It is costly and I hear the exams are a bit drawn out. Now is the time to do it as there is a bit of a boom up there..

[Aussie]

You gotta pay for endorsements everywhere these days!

Aussie

[haughtney1]

Frangatang is being a bit disengenuous, there are still plenty of jobs in the EU where you dont have "buy" a type rating.

Frang is refering to the large numbers of low-time guys with 200hrs, and a fresh type rating on the A320/B737, who see this as the only way to get a job. I know for a fact that with a little bit of effort and experience i.e. more than 500hrs TT, you stand a very very good chance of being interviewed for T/P jobs:ok:

[Abu Bebo]

G'day I am in a similar position to Apgrau, converting my licence to JAA.

When it comes to choosing a training provider for the "as required" CPL hours and the IR (10 on sim, 5 in the air), does anyone have any suggestions as to who would be a good candidate for my money?

You get what you pay for, usually, and what would be ideal is a Training Provider with good contacts to put me in touch with a Turbo Prop job (an interview, whatever) so I can get used to the density of airspace/ATC for a couple of years (plus have some fun before the tdm :zzz: sets in).

Cheers
A.B.
:ok:

[redsnail]

A European passport is perfect, an ancestry visa is acceptable for eg easyJet.

For the IR, I have heard good things about PAT in Bournemouth and I'd have a sniff around Bristol Flying Centre (I think it's called) for the IR. If you're not in the immediate position to jump to a flash job, they do charters etc and you need 700 hours to do that. (Some companies like 400 hours etc). Minor licence/insurance things I believe.

For the groundschool if you're not already enrolled in one in Oz, look at Bristol Ground School. Alex Whittingham and his team are brilliant.

Recruitment here is booming right now. (Note the 7-10 year cycle)
easyJet = 450 pilots next year.
Netjets Europe = 150+ pilots next year. (Just ordered 24 Dassault 7Xs)
Ryanair = no idea but it would be at least 200 pilots.
BA, Virgin Atlantic, Jet2, B Med, Thomsonfly (Britannia), Monarch, bmibaby all recruiting. (jets)

Turboprops. Flybe, BA Connect. All recruiting. Flybe takes direct entry captains. (Dash 8)

European companies. Air France, Air Berlin, etc.

Just about every bizjet operator such as Flexjet, TAG Aviation, Netjets (see above) are expanding.

Basicly, if you have 1,000-2,000 hours +, 500 hours turbine (ideally Dash 8, Saab etc) and above, there's a job here for you. If you have jet time, esp +20 tonnes, then there's a job here.

As for the flying?
Well, it isn't hard. SID-Airway-STAR-vectors-ILS for most airline type operations. Cat III for many operators. Weather is weather really. Seen more scary wx in Australia. Ok, it's a bit colder in winter but the countries that have the bad cold wx, they are equipped for it.

ATC is probably the biggest challenge. From the excitable Italians to the incomprehensible Russians (and metric) and the rapid fire Brits. Mountains are a bit higher too. ;)

Probably the best move I (we) ever made career wise.

[v1rotate]

There's quite abit of hiring going on at the moment and if you have at least 500 hours total time you should be in good stead for a Turbo-Prop job at least. MCC is essential.
I came here in year 2000 with only 370 hours, got a weekend gig in a C206 doing Meat Bombing and was offered an F27 job doing night freight at about 410 hours. At just over 1500 hours total, I was offered a 737 job and now have about 500 hours on the 737.
ATC are good over here in the UK, airports are well equiped with ILS's and full Radar coverage. You'll never have to do a Timed Procedure NDB ever again!!! DMEs everywhere. French ATC are good, Spanish are pretty bad, Italians are even worse!!!
Good luck!!!:ok:

[Apgrau]

Thanks for all the replies guys, it's good to get all this feedback from people who have been through this before.:D
I will probably have 500+ hours by the time I have done my IR and all the conversion so I am hoping I stand a good chance for the first job.;)
Sounds like the timing could not be any better. Lets just hope it stays that way!
:ok:

[v1rotate]

Apgrau, you mentioned that you were going to get your Instrument Rating then convert to the JAA licence, well remembering from when I did it (I did not have an Oz IR), the CAA did not give us any credit for posessing an IR but exempted us from the Morse Code exam. All I'm saying is that you may be able to save money by NOT getting an Oz IR as you'll have to do it in the UK anyway. Things may have changed since then (1999) but I'm sure you've sussed it all out already.

[Apgrau]

V1R, thanks for the post but I guess things have changed alittle since your days..
Apparently you can hold an IR and convert it to a JAR one simply by sitting an IR flight test. The catch is that you must have a minimum of 15h in european airspace but i guess it makes sense since you got to familiarise yourself with it. I kinda worked out that it still works cheaper to do the IR here and fly another 15h in E.U.
At the end of the day, even if it is going to cost just as much as an initial IR in europe, you get more hours out of it.
Anybody know anything more about this?
I guess time will tell..

[redsnail]

The CAA and CASA's interpretation of what's important in an IR flight test is slightly different.

I did a combined IR and LST in the mighty Shed (Shorts 330) and well, let's say it was interesting.

The CAA love holding patterns. Just love them. Learn to do those beautifully and you're laughing.
Speeds etc. You'll be expected to nominate the speeds you'll use for cruise and that wonderful holding pattern and you'll get a black mark if you're not within 5 kts of it. (or is it 10kts? Can't remember!)
The UK CAA use their own unique speeds for the approaches instead of ICAO. Use ICAO at your peril.
They also love limited panel UA recoveries. Their interpretation of a circle to land left me speechless too. However, it's their trainset and you have to play by their rules.

So, if you have to do an IR conversion in a real aeroplane, definitely make sure the instructor goes over the points that the examiner will be looking for.

Note, when Checkboard did his version of the IR/LST in the 737 sim, he didn't have to do UA recovery and half the other crap I had to do. He just a did a straight LST.

[sum1]

thanks for the good info...
now I am really interesteed with all the talk of the job availiability there. On that front, with 1500TT and 150 multi (+EU passport) what are the prospects like?

the cost of conversion is the big downside to this... from my research i doubt there would be change from 20k, doing most in oz, but the 15 hours for the IR conversion in the UK. :eek:
From those that have done it, does it really stack up $$ wise??

It does seem like a case of the grass being greener...but is it really worth it?
At 500 TT there would have been no doubt but I have already spent countless amounts of money getting this far, not too keen on 'stepping back' so to speak

[Alistair]

Playing the devil's advocate for a bit of a reality check.

Yes there are jobs around, more than Aus cause there are more airlines flying more aircraft but it won't be a given that you get one just because you have a JAR licence. Ask Reddo how long before she cracked it and I know others who have left because they ran out of cash and wanted to see the sun again. I am not saying don't try, just be aware of the pit falls.

As far as cash goes double whatever the number you come up with and add another 10% for a contingency and it will be about right. Don't forget the cost of living up here particularly if Oz dollar funded.

And no one has mentioned the fact that once you come and get a job you will be up here for the forseeable future and unlikely to ever get an equivalent job back in Aus. It is something to consider particularly with family as they won't be Aussie kids and will only get home once a year if you are lucky.

Apart from that it can work out OK, just be realistic about the industry as it is usually all down to perserverance and luck.

[podbreak]

Well said Alistair. A lot of people have a very warped impression of working in the EU. Staying realistic is important, without being overly negative of course...

[Oh that's super!]

French ATC are good, Spanish are pretty bad, Italians are even worse!!!


Have you encountered the Greek or Turkish ATC yet? :}:}

As for the expense of going to Europe, I think Alistair got it summed up pretty well. It can be frightfully expensive over there (especially in the UK, but the rest of Europe is also getting pretty up there too).

Also consider schooling situations if you have kids - private school may be the way to go if you happen to live in an educationally poor areas, and private schools are pretty expensive.

The advice to all those who are considering going to Europe is to be realistic, be financially prepared, and if you do go, don't give up easily.

[Aussie]

Thanks for the advice guys,

Anyone know which part of europe is a good place to start for a low timer?

Aussie

[Apgrau]

I agree with all that is said above guys..
Europe is more expensive, no doubt!
If I was born and bred as an Aussie I would definetely give it alot of thought before I took off for the EU! I was born in Athens from an Aussie mother and hence I decided to make the big step and come here for my training as you all know how good flying is here. My family and what I call home though, is back in Greece and my intentions have always been to go back!
I always loved Oz and wanted to live here for a few years to check it out. I could have done it all in europe without the hassle of conversions but the experience I got flying around here was priceless.
I am funding my training in Euros so it makes a bit of a difference.
It is very hard beeing away from home for a long period of time and maybe some of you guys might think it is not that hard, but it gets harder and harder every year!!I guess it also depends on how much you enjoy what you do and where you live..
Living in Europe and if I am lucky enough flying in Greece will mean living at home for a while which will cut down some of my expences instead of increasing them:ok: ...especially during the whole waiting game....
Lets just hope the perserverance and luck will get me there!
Thanks for the help guys!
Apgrau.

[redsnail]

Alistair,

So true mate. We more or less can't afford to go back to Australia as there's no way we'd get the equivalent jobs, let alone the pay! So, you been sending your kids to Aussie elocution lessons? :E We're treating the European thing as a 20 year working holiday. :D

Aussie,

Define your low time? It is worth getting an Aus ATPL versus the CPL + ME CIR.

Apgrau,

I haven't done much flying around Greece yet. Been into Athens a few times. Your country is definitely on our must visit list. :ok:

[Aussie]

Low time - 350hrs

Already have Aussie ATPL thoery complete, doing the JAA ATPl now.

Aussie

[redsnail]

Aussie,

Unless you can speak another language well, your best bet is the UK. Lots of turboprop operators around looking for folks who'll be happy in the RHS of a Dash 8 for a couple of years. Quite a few operators of Barbie jets who want the same.

Then again, you could be lucky and be ace of the base and score a jet job straight away. The trick is to find a job that doesn't expect you to buy that rating.

Most folks seem to get their command (on a jet) with about 3,000 (factored) hours or maybe 5,000 hours. Turboprop commands happen at around 1,500 to 2,500 hours (assuming ~1,000+ on type/equivalent and the job)

Again, those are generalisations.

[Aussie]

Thanks again!

Im fluent in Polish. My parents are from there and i can speak it.

So maybe head that way......

Aussie

[Boomerang]

Redsnail, you thought you had it bad, try a double engine failure (DHC8) whilst circling. ATO "Can you see the tower?" Me, "Yeah, just." Silence...as both engines flameout. :eek: But we pulled off a nice landing on the cross strip at LEBL. Edit: In the sim of course :D

[redsnail]

Boomerang,

Sounds like some of my sim details in the States. Fortunately that's at the end of the session and we were "killing" some time. :}

Enjoying flying in Europe? De-icing season approaching. :ugh:

[haughtney1]

Thanks for that Reddo....I gotta remember to turn the APU blled air off so the deicing overspill doesnt poison the self loading freight through the APU/bleed air supply....:oh: :8

[stillalbatross]

Most kiwi pilot's who haven't been abroad as far as Europe will tell you that the weather and traffic in Europe doesn't compare with the enormous challenges you face in NZ. Hence 3000 hrs banging round the traps with Ryanair are completely useless for coping with everything that NZ throws at you. Have to agree to some extent, just the other day into Nelson in the morning there were three aircraft within 20 miles of the airfield and a light frost on the ground. Nail biting stuff.

[The Hedge]

If you have in excess of 1500 hrs PIC or as Co pilot on Multi Pilot aircraft, or on single pilot aircraft operated as 2 crew due to operational requirements you are exempt from "approved" theory training (ie requiremnt to enrol in an approved course and attend the formal groundschool prior to exams).

Metro/Bandit/Otter all count due rpt and more than 9 pax

I have finished my 14 exams and have the entire course.

PM me for details.

[Aussie]

Hedge,

Check ya pms!

Aussie

[remoak]

Most kiwi pilot's who haven't been abroad as far as Europe will tell you that the weather and traffic in Europe doesn't compare with the enormous challenges you face in NZ. Hence 3000 hrs banging round the traps with Ryanair are completely useless for coping with everything that NZ throws at you. Have to agree to some extent, just the other day into Nelson in the morning there were three aircraft within 20 miles of the airfield and a light frost on the ground. Nail biting stuff.

So very funny, and yet, so very, very true! NZ really is an isolated aviation backwater.

The 16 years I spent flying in Europe were the best aviation years I ever had - however it pretty much kills any chance of a job back in NZ - seeing as how you "cheated" and went to Europe, whilst all your staunch aero club mates spent ten years instructing before reaching the dizzying heights of a 19 seat turboprop that doesn't even have an autopilot...

Just remember that when you come back, with several thousand hours of jet command time, the best you can expect is the right seat of that little turboprop!

:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[haughtney1]

three aircraft within 20 miles of the airfield and a light frost on the ground. Nail biting stuff.
3 within 20 miles? send 1 to the hold, divert the second 1, and give the 3rd one a 10 mile straight in!!:E

Tearing up My Air NZ application as we speak......damn those aeroclub boys!! :oh: :8 :p