Holding points - when have they been impinged?

[welcome_stranger]

I have just been given the juicy task of finding a reference (either Australian AIP/MATS or ICAO) which clearly states when an aircraft has impinged a holding point. :ugh:

Is it when the nose of the aircraft cuts the plane of the holding point, or is it when the front wheels of the aircraft cross the line? :=


Hopefully someone out there more awake than I can help me - thanks :zzz:

[chevvron]

It's when ATC says it has and don't argue!

[Tivoli Vertigo]

Try:

ICAO Doc 4444, 12.3.4.9 note (actually its when an aircraft has vacated after landing)

[Tivoli Vertigo]

Try:

ICAO 4444, 7.5.3.1.2.2 and 7.9.3.4 and 12.3.4.9 note

[terrain safe]

some say nose wheel, while others say nose cone, I say imagine concorde holding on nose wheel. How far forward would the end on the nose cone be? 10 metres? 15 metres? Don't know but I say it must be based on the most forward projecting point of the aircraft, e.g. for a heli generally the tip of the rotor blade.

Cheers

[Spitoon]

I suspect that you will find that it is not well defined in ICAO. In the UK the CAA issued an ATSIN (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?categoryid=33&pagetype=65&applicationid=11&mode=detail&id=556) which said that individual airports might want to define what constituted clear of the runway - but sadly the document has been withdrawn and I don't think the content has been published anywhere else. Maybe if you contact the CAA they can dig out a copy for you but I don't think it gives you a definitive answer.

ICAO gives a hint in a recent amendment to PANS-ATM (and I think this was new in the amendment) - references to runway vacated reports are quite specific as below:
7.5.3.1.2.2 If the control tower is unable to determine, either visually or by radar, that a vacating or crossing aircraft has cleared the runway, the aircraft shall be requested to report when it has vacated the runway. The report shall be made when the entire aircraft is beyond the relevant runway-holding position.


By inference, an aircraft will have 'entered' a runway when any part of it has crossed the runway-holding position.