View Full Version : Bumped from BA First in Beijing
Sitting in Beijing lounge about to return to Europe via BKK and get home only half a day late ! better than the extra day offered in Beijing, when I was looking forward to a weekend at home with family before hitting the road again on Monday.
One presumes that part of the premium high priced offering in First Class, is that once you have paid for the seat it is guaranteed. Arriving at check in 1.5 hrs before departure to be told that First is overbooked and I have been bumped does not generate confidence in BA as an organisation.
Overbooking in First is surely kicking the ar*e out of it BA. And then leaving one, only one BA ground staff rep on duty to run around and solve your premium pax problem in between solving the other 100 normal problems she has on a departure. Poor girl !!
Totally unacceptable :=
BA management continues its policy of alienating its premium pax :}
manintheback
22nd Sep 2006, 10:45
If it makes you feel any better, its happened to me on two other air-lines. One of which I held Gold and a guarantee of a seat being made available in whatever class I booked at 24 hours notice...
skydriller
22nd Sep 2006, 11:11
I've been bumped from Business Class a couple of times around Europe with various airlines, which is not quite the same I know, but I think it happens more often than you would think:suspect: . Its not happened longhaul yet, but you can guarentee I would be creating a stink if it did..:mad:
Regards, SD..
Personally , I would find that in First Class , given the fares , overbooking is not acceptable , no arguments , no excuses . I guess BA has lost another customer , that sort of service is not of quality . Simple .
Phileas Fogg
22nd Sep 2006, 15:36
How can they ever get away with calling themselves 'The World's Favourite Airline'?
Just like managers who say -" no that's not true " when discussing with those who work at the sharp end . Where will it all end ? Certainly the 'managers' all seem to survive !
Back home now, after a bit of a short cut, via BKK and ZRH. Thanks BA for giving me a good look at Swissair First, great bed, great service, shame they only have a few routes.
rsoman
23rd Sep 2006, 17:46
Well
Didnt realise tll now that BA first class NEVER hd NO SHOWS!
"A NO SHOW is my privilege! Lossses to the airline due to my NO SHOW is not my headache!"
RSO man, I expect that the price in First factors in the odd no-show for most airlines. Wouldn't have minded so much if there was more than one flight a day from PEK, but there is not.
goshdarnit
23rd Sep 2006, 23:42
Surely a no-show has already paid for their seat anyway? Especially in First!!!? Or do you mean cancellation?
There is absolutely no excuse for overbooking First. Period.
Final 3 Greens
24th Sep 2006, 07:19
Goshdarnit
Flexible tickets (e.g. F and J, even Y) can and do no show with impunity.
Some companies block book seats in anticipation of travel needs and then no show them.
Of course airlines will overbook F, based on predicitve modelling of yields, but but it is customer relations disaster when they bump a passenger.
Were I RMAC, I would be absolutely furious and would be seeking major compensation as well as the re-routing.
apaddyinuk
24th Sep 2006, 10:51
How can they ever get away with calling themselves 'The World's Favourite Airline'?
Gosh Phileas....when was the last time you heard BA refer to themselves as the worlds favourite??? Im sure it was at least 12 years or so now since they used that as their slogan!!!!
Things have changed, its no longer about good customer service, its about profits and if you think its just BA then you are very niave! Im sure most of you in here are business people moreso than 1950's aviation romantics so you will be familiar with the concept of stretching revenue to maintain profits. Although we may not like the way certain companies/industries go about it its something we have to live with. It may happen to you on BA now hence you will switch your loyalty to say..Air France, but it will only be a matter of time before Air France do it to you too, then you will move elsewhere, same will happen until it has gone full circle!
Its not the over booking that should make you decide whether to ditch that particular airline but how its dealt with and what compensation you get in the end!!!
Sorry PaddyUK . The bottom line is service . The more you pay - L450 in economy or L5000 in First makes the difference , that's BUSINESS . There is no excuse for overbooking in First - that's part of what one pays for . The bottom line maybe shareholder profits but it's the customer who makes the profit - especially the First Class one , he should not be let down by shortsighted managers who only think of the bonus or promotion . If BA continues to carry on with this policy then I would think that the BA managers are not seriously thinking about BA's (and their) future .
rsoman
24th Sep 2006, 13:08
Let us make all first class tickets non refundable and then guarantee a no -overbooking policy. Any takers???
By the way when I started off in this industry more than a decade back, the first case I came accross of bumping in first was on---- BA!
So hardly mind boggling news this one !!!! I would say they woke up much earlier than others!
And ofcourse - the choice is always there - you can always risk having half empty first class cabins and end up by having first removed altogether - as many airlines have done!!!
It is not that I dont sympathise with rmac, but being on the other side of the fence, I also understand that sometimes there have to be ruthless economic decisions as well! Just like Ryan Air or Easy Jet has become "My (employer's) favourite airline", it all comes to this one word "Profit".
Overbooking , even on first has become more or less standard pratice nowadays. Mostly as F3G said , the predictive modelling works,- when it does not - then it becomes news!
Cheers
RSOman,
I am not sure that I catch your logic. Full fare Y class, which is flexible, is considerably more expensive than than the non-refundable type. If they sold F tickets, non-refundable at the same percentage discount as they operate in Y class, I would say "hell yes !, give me more". As it is, with fares as they stand, my 90kg carcass is equivalent in average fare to 450kg's down the back, as well as 30kg of baggage vs. 110kg down the back. I would also imagine that the real estate takes up a little less space too, but real estate doesn't use 5x more fuel, check in time, baggage handlers, ticketing agents etc etc.
777 from Beijing has 12 seats in first, maybe +/-60 in business and probably 250+ in economy. Overbooking by 1 seat in First has an 8.33% chance of an upset, if I asked you to go for an operation in hospital which had an 8.33% chance of dying, would you be keen to try the odds? The same percentage conservatively applied to business and economy would have the airline looking to re-book 5 business pax and 21 economy pax alternative flights on every 777 service.
I would think that smart policy would be as follows;
1. Overbook economy by 5-10 seats, from the 250+ there are bound to be tourists or similar who would enjoy an extra night at destination.
2. Overbook business by 2-3 seats, on the offchance that everyone turns up see point 3.
3. Underbook first by 2 seats, then if everyone turns up for business, and one first passenger (8.33% of the load) fails to show, you can upgrade 3 long term gold card pax as a goodwill gesture (rather than downgrading or offloading 3 business pax to try another airlines comparative service). As a 7 year LH Senator and 5 year SQ Solitaire I can confirm that I have been on the receipt of numerous upgrades for that very reason, indeed LH issues Senators an upgrade voucher per 50,000 miles flown, which can, as one option, be used at the gate if space is available. If on the offchance, the forecasts are perfect, then a little exclusivity with some empty seats in First does not go amiss in generating that vote winning ambience that keeps customers coming back. Except on BA of course when they will be quickly filled with staff travel, captains wife, cabin crews boy/girlfriends etc.
Once again, Beijing, one service a day, few other options, especially on a Friday, taking an 8.33% chance of a serious upset of a premium passenger is a bit reckless imho :(
Another quick question RSOman, when you say "other side of the fence" are you representative of management from an airline ? as your brief says "travel consultant" which traditionally would see you representing the passenger as your customer, not the airline as a service provider :confused:
And PaddyinUK, your brief indicates cabin crew. I would have thought it very unusual that an airline gives sight of its P+L management decisions to those delivering the service. I am in a service industry, at fairly senior level (as you might guess from the F class travel), and I am certainly not familiar with "stretching revenue" , a phrase on its own, which hardly conveys an impression of integrity. At the end of the day, those making such business decisions are playing with your jobs !
rsoman
24th Sep 2006, 17:08
Hey Rmac
Thanks for reminding. Been a while since I posted last. Have modified my profile suitably!
How about the dedicated cabin crew, the superior food (with all the attendant wastages) ,cost of maintaining a lounge (even if shared) for one or two flights , and all those other "first" perks! Not exactly cheap aren't they? Plus the dedicated cabins which sometimes go half empty!
I guess in reality the overbooking would more or less have been twice or thrice the figure you mentioned for first (have you already gone into shock?).
May not be for all routes but certain routes certainly will qualify for the high overbooking!
Think about how many times you had to change that first class reservation 2 or 3 days before the intended travel date and then think how easy it is for the airline to fill up that high price seat you have let go at short notice? Will people travelling first class on BA take an airport chance if the flight is booked out 10 days back? No - ofcourse you will go to LX or AF or elsewhere for a "guaranteed seat.
Get real - nowadays every penny in revenue counts! Loyalty - well.. recent events have shown that that is a word which has lost its meaning !
If I were you I would still enjoy the first class when it is still available , overbooking or not! Dont expect it to last too much longer!
rsoman, I rarely eat on board, normally either watch movies, read or sleep (mostly), my needs are guaranteed availability, not to have anyone else climbing over me, or trying to converse while I am trying to relax, and getting to my destination in a good frame of mind to either do good business (outbound) or be a good father to my kids (inbound).
My most valuable commodity is time, and the best use of it. The protection of my time is what I pay for more than any bottle of Dom Perignon.
I rarely cancel a flight at the last minute, if I cannot plan at least a week in advance I am not running my business very well from a strategic view.
Having said all that, I generally find that two class airlines try to make their business service a little special and if F goes it goes, but until then, maybe they should try harder !
10secondsurvey
24th Sep 2006, 20:21
Write to BA and tell them what you think of the cr@p service you recieved. Being bumped in First is nothing but cr@p.
I am absolutely astonished considering how few seats there are in First, and how much the tickets cost that BA would dream of overbooking.
Just make sure BA are absolutely clear on your views of their cr@p service.
Sounds like you've been pretty polite about all this, I'm not sure I would.
flash8
24th Sep 2006, 20:25
You guys have it easy
Flying Kras Air TU-154's internally in Russia (in a previous life) I often boarded the a/c to find.... shock horror... NO BUSINESS CLASS!!
Even though I had a Business class Ticket (3 times the price of Economy).
The Russians however can be truly f*****d up, and it only invoked mild surprise on my part. Of course, ask for a refund and they'd laugh in your face.
10secondsurvey
24th Sep 2006, 20:31
Just for the record, as Easyjet was mentioned in an earlier posting with reference to commercial based decisions, easyjet and Ryanair do not overbook seats.
10secondsurvey
24th Sep 2006, 20:36
You guys have it easy
Flying Kras Air TU-154's internally in Russia (in a previous life) I often boarded the a/c to find.... shock horror... NO BUSINESS CLASS!!
Even though I had a Business class Ticket (3 times the price of Economy).
flash8
Certain airlines (BMI regional?) do this frequently within Europe. Though they do hang a piece of cloth in the aisle to help ensure you know which of the identical seats are in the 'business' cabin.
manintheback
24th Sep 2006, 20:37
Just a thought. HMG Dignitaries at a certain level of (self?) importance tend to be accomodated at virtually no notice at all, and there are quite a few of those on the Beijing route.
flash8, had the opposite happen to me in China domestic. I wanted to buy business, but was told there wasn't any business. On boarding, lo and behold, a large empty business class cabin. I pointed this out to the chief cabin crew and she apologised and invited me to take a seat in business.
I do work in both China and Russia, and it appears to me that the Chinese seem to be in front in their conversion from communism to free market.
10 second you are so right !
manintheback You may have something there. I spoke this morning with BA customer service supervisor in Bremen. He told me that BA does not overbook First, he has checked the loading and appears, on the face of it, to be mystified. I will keep you posted.
angels
25th Sep 2006, 11:09
Keep us posted mac.
flash8I recall a trip with a colleague from New York to Dallas with Delta. My colleague from our Paris office had a business class ticket, but of course there was only first and coach on the plane!
An hour of haggling followed. They would not let him sit in first (I had a first ticket), finally my mate said 'Okay I'll pay the differnce myself and recalim it. How much'
It was 26 bucks! An hour's grief for 26 bucks. We could have been on the lash!
apaddyinuk
25th Sep 2006, 12:18
Sorry PaddyUK . The bottom line is service . The more you pay - L450 in economy or L5000 in First makes the difference , that's BUSINESS . There is no excuse for overbooking in First - that's part of what one pays for . The bottom line maybe shareholder profits but it's the customer who makes the profit - especially the First Class one , he should not be let down by shortsighted managers who only think of the bonus or promotion . If BA continues to carry on with this policy then I would think that the BA managers are not seriously thinking about BA's (and their) future .
RMAC...You may want to listen to this too because yes, I am actually BA cabin crew!!!
As I said, BA Management are trying to stretch revenues as much as possible. Much of the management come from other industries and are not familiar with "good" customer service and feel they can make decisions as there will always be others who clean up the mess...e.g...the crew and the ground staff!!! These managers think their policies which have a detremental effect on the customer are acceptable when they are clearly not. So yes, BA is being let down by short sighted managers and both the passengers and the crew/ground staff are left to suffer. This has been going on for many years and is still only the tip of the iceberg. You may moan that its the Willie effect but I assure you that its been going on a lot longer then that.
Now I may only be a lonesome cabin crew member but I am doing a business degree, have a strong management head on me and also a lot of common sense so I feel confident enough to understand the rational of BA management but also to disagree and criticise it.
Sadly, the bottom line is no longer service but infact profit earning and empire building at BA!
HOWEVER.... I would recommend that if you are not happy with BA and decide to move away from the airline (please dont, I need my job to pay of uni) please send a letter explaining exactly why you are leaving. I do know that there are some people in the airline capable of listening still and can bring about change!!! Or maybe its just be being niave!!!
rsoman
25th Sep 2006, 13:47
rmac
******
rarely cancel a flight at the last minute, if I cannot plan at least a week in advance I am not running my business very well from a strategic view.
***
I used to cheer people like you (as mentioned I was an erstwhile travel agent) but the sad fact is that there are lot of others (especially in upper class- who mostly seemed to travel on expense accounts) who were the exact opposite. Wants to hold on to duplicate bookings in every possible airline for three days before and after their eventual travel, never bothered to inform if they decide not to travel , etc etc. Imagine the havoc such people create on airline revenues and inventory control? Airlines pay a fortune in GDS (reservation system) costs and an unacceptably high percentage of that comes from fictitious/duplicate bookings. This was also a contributory factor in airlines adopting practices which I would agree are not exactly desirable.
But as I have mentioned many times, like you are keen to ensure that your business does well, the airline managers also have to make sure they run their business equally well - they are also answerable to their shareholders.
Final3Greens mentioned in an earlier post
****
Flexible tickets (e.g. F and J, even Y) can and do no show with impunity.
Some companies block book seats in anticipation of travel needs and then no show them.
****
This is 100% true and as long these continue to remain at unacceptable levels you always have situations like the unfortunate one you experienced.
Blame your fellow pax, dont blame the airline! And be a little understanding next time you face a similar situation instead of joining the growing tribe here who blame airline managers for each and every evil in the industry conveniently forgetting the fact that in many cases it was the action of those ranting the loudest who made the situation bad in the first place!
There is another thread in the same forum about "Emirates Marketing Madness" where in there was a a similar rant about Frequent Flyer "victimisation" until someone who could understand what was going on (Globaliser) put things in perspective.
apaddyinuk
****
Sadly, the bottom line is no longer service but infact profit earning and empire building at BA!
*****
I dont know about empire building, but the former atleast is among the factors helping you retain your job !
Cheers
paddyinuk, good post, and yes you are right the management induces a negative reaction from both service deliverers and customers. This may temporarily spike profits, but can never pay in the medium to long term.
rsoman, you haven't indicated what you are currently employed as since you noted that you are an ex-travel consultant. I am beginning to think you work in BA management. I disagree wholeheartedly with your approach summed up by inviting me to blame my fellow pax/airline customers, and affecting a very imperious tone when you instruct us all to "show a little understanding" to the poor old airline management. I would also ask you to re-read the posts in this thread, as far as I can see, it is an ocean of reasonableness, punctuated only by provocative rants by none other than you. Have you been taking lessons from the CEO of Ryanair ?
When one of my management starts blaming the customers as an excuse for not delivering the right service or not obtaining decent results, its time for me to put a P45 in the post to him.
apaddyinuk
25th Sep 2006, 21:32
I dont know about empire building, but the former atleast is among the factors helping you retain your job !
Cheers
For how long? Until the service has been cut so much that the customers will flock elsewhere where their custom brings value and the company begins to downsize all at the price of maximising profits in the short term instead of building a sustainable valued product for the long term?
rsoman
26th Sep 2006, 03:24
Have you been taking lessons from the CEO of Ryanair ?
*****
What if I do? If it makes my company's balance sheet looks good, I dont care. ! And this particular one doesnt look like going down in the long term either unlike what Paddy predicts!
Paddy - Airline managers may make unpalatable decisions for the good of the company. You as a cabin crew/others in customer service are employed to make them palatable for the customers! The managers do their job, you do yours!
Passeger Loyalty - May be the word had some meaning earlier - not now!
Airlines can only be run well by managers from within the industry- another long obsolete theory!
Please remember that an airline is not a charity to help you run your business at its expense!
Final 3 Greens
26th Sep 2006, 04:53
rsoman quoted me and then said...
This is 100% true and as long these continue to remain at unacceptable levels you always have situations like the unfortunate one you experienced.
I would like to distance myself from this quote and say that a core competence of airline management is costing in the no shows and not p&ssing off premium pax like rmac by witholding a service that they have paid for.
People who travel in F are people whose time is literally money (the same often applies to J pax too) and they pay a considerable premium for the service levels, with an implied understanding that they will be received the highest standards of service, in every respect.
The cost of missing a meeting could be many, many times the cost of the F ticket.
Bumping pax from F is crass.
Of course, the aircraft could have had a defective seat, but I would have expected a better solution than just bumping the pax off.
rsoman
26th Sep 2006, 05:08
You cost in the no shows - then your cost per seat goes up and then your "loyal" FIRST customer goes off elsewhere!
BA as I understand made a proft for the first time after TEN years in their FIRST product and I guess some of it is due to policies that threw idealism out of the window and looked at making money instead!
RSOman
"The airline may is not a charity".
Now lets examine that comment. For GBP5000, I could buy a decent second hand small car or sports motorbike, or have a week in a five star hotel somewhere rather nice. Or I could buy 2x 10 hours in a half decent flat seat in which I can sleep, though I would get a much bigger bed in a railway carriage or cross channel ferry for a tenth of the price.
Stop the press !, my oath ! you are so right the airline is not a charity :ugh:
Now as a GA light twin driver, who uses his aircraft for business trips around Central Europe, let me alert you to who is being subsidised. I pay almost twice as much per litre of fuel as the airlines do, given they are exempt from all fuel taxes on their AOC. I use my aircraft for private transport I pay the lot ! I also use the services of Eurocontrol, and the ATC system while on an IFR plan. With my lovely mode S transponder they are able to, and do, rack up significant service charges on every flight. These are much higher than they used to be, and you can compare with the US where they are free to light GA. Eurocontrol and national air traffic organisations have been under constant pressure from the airlines to bring charges against light aviation, which are way out of proportion to the service used compared to airlines.
Question here is, who is being subsidised :confused:
Final 3 Greens
26th Sep 2006, 05:46
rsoman
I guess some of it is also due to the lowering of the airline's cost base.
BTW, it does not take any great skill to produce a short term profit - a tough policy of driving down cost is all that is required. Of course, in the longer term it is a diferent matter and the average lifespan of Fortune 500 companies over the years tells its own story.
"Customer Loyalty", an oxymoron were there ever one, is based on the whole experience, not just the price and people talk about it.
I bet rmac has told lots of people of his experience and there is plenty of research to show that satisfied customers tell a few people about their good experience, whilst dissatisfied tell many.
slim_slag
26th Sep 2006, 06:48
People who travel in F are people whose time is literally money (the same often applies to J pax too)What about us cheapskates in the back? Our time is money too. Why would I give significant chunks of extra money to an airline for very little of value in return when I can put it in the bank so I can retire earlier?
Final 3 Greens
26th Sep 2006, 09:12
Ah Slim
Why would I give significant chunks of extra money to an airline for very little of value in return when I can put it in the bank so I can retire earlier?
Them what travel F rarely pay for it personally :} I certainly don't and neither do you when you travel J or F either :ok:
But to extend your way of thinking, what is the point of spending all the extra dosh on F if you get turfed off?
PAXboy
26th Sep 2006, 11:53
apaddyinukSo yes, BA is being let down by short sighted managers and both the passengers and the crew/ground staff are left to suffer. This has been going on for many years and is still only the tip of the iceberg. You may moan that its the Willie effect but I assure you that its been going on a lot longer then that.As I say (probably too often) this is just what EVERY biz does. I know that we are discussing one particular airline in a forum for airlines but many folks give the impression that they have never met this kind of corporate behaviour before. I see it in almost every company that I use. Last Saturday dear old Hilton Hotels failed the test. The BA special promotion ground to a halt upon arrival at 20:30 and the room ordered was not available. Fortunately, I had printed confirmation from their web site and a compromise was reached. Now to write the letter.
rsomanBA as I understand made a proft for the first time after TEN years in their FIRST productIs that because of the way in which they have sliced up the costs and revenue? Have they done one of those projects to work out what percentage of the cost of the flight supports First/Biz/WTP/WT and then diced up the revenue? If so, then I have seen that game played for 20 years and the results can be so satisfying - to the accountants! :rolleyes: I recently stopped giving time and money to a charity because they had done that and so were able to 'state' that some volunteers could donate even more money. I chose not to have my donation doubled and they lost :p
F3GThe average lifespan of Fortune 500 companies over the years tells its own story.Yes, indeed! BA is now past it's apogee and it is important for everyone to correctly anticipate the trajectory of it's decline. I do not say this in any malicious way (and do not hold shares in ANY airline) it is simply the way that human beings work.
apaddyinuk
26th Sep 2006, 13:21
Paddy - Airline managers may make unpalatable decisions for the good of the company. You as a cabin crew/others in customer service are employed to make them palatable for the customers! The managers do their job, you do yours!
Is that really what you believe??? You must be one of those BA managers then. You clearly dont know your product OR your employees. You also dont know my job well either, you just care about your own progression.
If a BA customer is unhappy about something its not my job to make them eat it, its my job to discuss it with them, find out how we could make it better and to follow through by advising them what they should do next....hence those bloody comment cards which I know never get read. This is what we are trained to do and therefore its a rule set down by a fellow manager. So get that right for starters and you may do well.
Your job as a BA manager (again assuming that you are as you seem so defensive on the matter) should be to find out why our customers are flocking to other airlines and losing us revenue and to find a way to stop it. Not come up with a new buzz word like "Service WOW" and get a hefty bonus for it while somewhere passengers are less then wowed when their luggage goes missing for the umpteenth time, planes departing late through no fault of the ground staff or crew but because the transport buses dont have enough drivers because "we need to be ready for T5 TWO YEARS EARLY", crap food onboard and premium customers being refused boarding on a shabby looking plane because its over booked!!! Its not our job to clean up your poor management decisions.
But I have every belief that willie is gunning for your type because I know he is looking at these sort of inefficient decisions from his management.
P.S...Apols for the spelling, my spell check is knackered!
apaddyinuk
26th Sep 2006, 13:22
Oh, and Paxboy....I could not agree with you more! :D
Final 3 Greens
26th Sep 2006, 13:55
APaddy
You are right to feel the way you do.
Last year your company messed me about with catering in C for several months and then the ground agents at Brussels were totally unhelpful when my case was damaged in transit and would not do anything to help, other than to offer to give me a phone number in Paris, knowing that it would take 5 days to replace the case on a 2 day trip. (I had paid GBP447 for the C class ticket.)
As a result, I have flown 74 segments so far this year and only 6 with BA, when there was no other option.
I booked 4 x F class long haul segments this morning, could have been with BA, but were not.
This despite the fact that you and your colleagues are usually very good in the air.
Sadly the total experience, including the farcical UK security restrictions on hand luggage, means that BA and the UK are a port of last resort, which is a shame as I am an expat Brit.
One passenger does not an airline sink, but I wonder how many others think like me these days?
10secondsurvey
26th Sep 2006, 17:23
Despite all the 'commercial considerations' being highlighted by some here, I must say, bumping a First pax is a quick and sure way to destroy the BA business.
I would suggest the typical First pax is the type of person who either has a very high level position, or has a high disposable income. In either scenario, they are most certainly the type of client you do not want to lose. I still cannot believe BA bump from First, truly astonished.
As regards profitability, it is quite possible to make pretty much any business profitable in the short term, by sacrificing long established relationships built up over many years with premium clients, due to reductions in staffing and service levels. Short term, the managers at BA get their bonuses, shareholders get a return. Long term, in two years or less, BA will lose it's key premium customer base to competitors who are only too happy to oblige.
By this time of course, said BA managers will have 'jumped ship' to yet another business of which they have little understanding.
rsoman, your posts are like something from the MOL handbook. Just because it works at the budget end, it really doesn't mean it will work at BA, as anyone with any level of business acumen could tell you.
angels
27th Sep 2006, 10:34
Some one ought to send this thread to Willie.
We get an eloquent view from the frontline from apaddy and a frightening view from the paying (or 'not paying so much now') pax from final3.
Good stuff chaps.
Final 3 Greens
27th Sep 2006, 12:11
Angels
I hope someone does send this thread to WW and I hope that he can make the airline a first choice, once again.
As regulars on the forum will know, I have generally been a supporter of BA over the years and it saddens me to be placing business elsewhere, but the service in the last year has forced me elsewhere.
I shan't even make silver member this year, despite the low threshold of 400 points in the Med.
BahrainLad
27th Sep 2006, 13:53
With reference to the original experience being discussed, did BA not offer to accomodate you in Club and downgrade a passenger from that cabin.
Or was a half-day delay more preferable than the humiliation of not flying in F? :confused:
The poor harassed one and only BA rep on duty for a full 777, offered to downgrade a club pax, and chuck off an economy passenger, as all club boarding passes had already been issued, I would like to have seen that conversation :\
The agent offered an acceptable alternative with LH via Munich which would get me home an hour earlier, and I was happy to accept, because;
a. I could have been that club passenger.
b. The poor girl was begging me to accept in order to avoid the forthcoming conflict, and I was happy to oblige and be home an hour earlier. LH is also a good product, so smiles all round.
They had already offloaded me because they gambled that I would accept a slightly more convenient flight.
Unfortunately during the heat of trying to sort out many problems, she misunderstood LH, and when I turned up to check in for the Munich flight two hours later it was actually full, as it was the Frankfurt flight which had space and had departed 30 mins earlier :eek:
Nothing else available 'cept my long BKK detour or another day in Beijing.
All of the above is beside the point, FIRST and CLUB pax on sectors which have one flight a day only, should not be in that position, whoever they are.
BahrainLad
27th Sep 2006, 16:05
Fair enough.
I think BA are allowed to oversell F by a maximum of 1 on most routes. Club is a different story, but I am aware of it being oversold by up to 10 on occasion.
I appreciate that in F you should expect a guaranteed seat but you should also expect flexibility. The challenge of the airline is to manage these two contradictory (from its perspective) expectations so that it can run a profitable service. BA have obviously made the calculation thus
number of flights per day..........large number
number of flights where F is fully sold....small number
number of flights where F is oversold...tiny number
number of flights where F is oversold and everyone turns up...miniscule number
and therefore the loss of business arising from the final scenario is tiny. This could then be set against the potential loss of business from effectively not filling the F cabin on a regular basis.
Final 3 Greens
27th Sep 2006, 16:15
BahrainLad
Your line of thinking is illogical and commercially naive.
Bumping one person from F is not a potentially minscule impact, as these people are serial travellers and mingle with other F travellers.
Your thinking will provide a short term profit and a long term decline in sales - see Paxboy's comment above.
FormerFlyer
27th Sep 2006, 19:06
Surely a more sensible service recovery for BA would have been to downgrade you to J....and if that ended up pushing further people down and a Y pax off then so be it. At least you'd have got home when you wanted.
Taking cover :E
cheers ;)
FF
PAXboy
27th Sep 2006, 20:57
But FF that would have irritated Two customers who had also paid their money, rather than one?
BahrainLad
27th Sep 2006, 21:39
BahrainLad
Your line of thinking is illogical and commercially naive.
Bumping one person from F is not a potentially minscule impact, as these people are serial travellers and mingle with other F travellers.
Your thinking will provide a short term profit and a long term decline in sales - see Paxboy's comment above.
Nonsense...commercially naive in what way? To be fair, overbooking profiles can sometimes seem like a black art but would you like to tell me how many people get bumped from F on BA on a daily basis?
And would you then like to tell me how many of them pay for their tickets?
And would you then like to tell me how many of them who don't pay for their tickets have influence on their corporations global travel policy?
And would you then like to tell me how many people they can influence (bearing in mind word-of-mouth advertising is only slightly more effective than mass-market brand advertising) with their bad experience with BA?
(Again, bearing in mind, this may have only happened to them once in their travel life)...
Essentially my argument is that "full fare passenger gets bumped from first class" makes a nice headline, but in the realms of real life, this is an isolated ocurrence that, whilst no doubt very upsetting to the individual involved, has very little impact on the commercial viability of the airlne.
However, if you can find another airline that doesn't overbook in F then I would be happy to discuss these matters further. ;)
BahrainLad
27th Sep 2006, 21:41
But FF that would have irritated Two customers who had also paid their money, rather than one?
So? An F passenger is worth £5k, a club £2k and a Y £500.
Or so it was said earlier in the thread...those who live by the numbers die by the numbers I suppose....;)
Bahrainlad,
"Another airline which doesn't overbook in first" ? I know three for sure. SQ/CX/LH
And another point, I authorise the travel requests of 60 senior managers, and can take a decision directly affecting their choice of travel. Be sure about it. I probably sign off on up three quarters of a million pounds of air travel every year, some times more.
Fortunately for the airline, I am not juvenile enough to stick it too them as a result of this incident......but it still does not make their policy right.
While talking about juvenile management, I have to say that quite a lot of the airline management commenting here (you know who you are) could do with a maturity injection :(
apaddyinuk
27th Sep 2006, 23:42
I must admit, when BA crew report for flights we get a briefing sheet which indicated the booked load...very very rarely do I notice an over booking in First. Occassionally when a 13 F seater is subsituted for a 14 F seater (On the B777) you will have a single over booking, otherwise its usually only on the East Coast high frequency routes such as JFK/EWR/BOS/ORD etc which you will find a single overbooking...simply because of the high no show rate.
Now this by no means makes it acceptable but it would appear that BA never OB more than 1 Pax in First. They do however seem to OB about 5% in Club on occassion but this is not an accurate figure!
paddy, maybe you have the answer, if there was an airframe change with a 13F instead of 14F. If that is true, perhaps if it had been explained, with a gesture of compensation attached, I would fully understand.
On your East Coast route overbooking, I would also think its not a huge deal, due to the alternative flights available within a few hours.
By the way, I am still waiting a response from BA on my original communication, even to acknowledge receipt :(
Final 3 Greens
28th Sep 2006, 05:24
Nonsense...commercially naive in what way?
I think that your last post illustrates your naievity quite nicely and I am not going to try and answer questions that are impossible, as the data do not exist.
Suffice it to say that rmac's last post offers some insight "I authorise the travel requests of 60 senior managers, and can take a decision directly affecting their choice of travel. Be sure about it. I probably sign off on up three quarters of a million pounds of air travel every year, some times more.
Basic marketing 101 teaches the student to attack the core business of others, whilst defending ones own core business and letting the peripheral customers, who are less profitable, go.
One breaks this golden rule at considerable risk.
FormerFlyer
28th Sep 2006, 09:38
But FF that would have irritated Two customers who had also paid their money, rather than one?
Yeah....just wondering who'd be first to pick up on it :D
cheers ;)
FF
Final 3 Greens
28th Sep 2006, 10:01
FF
rmac had already covered this in post #45, which I imagine that you didn not read before posting yours.
FormerFlyer
28th Sep 2006, 11:01
FF
rmac had already covered this in post #45, which I imagine that you didn not read before posting yours.
You imagine wrongly!
cheers ;)
FF
Final 3 Greens
28th Sep 2006, 11:23
In which case I don't see your point, as the airline offered the downgrade and the pax declined it, under which circumstances I am sure the airline rep just wished to give the F class pax his preferred option.
Pax Vobiscum
28th Sep 2006, 15:39
Perhaps time was too tight in this case, but aren't downgrades (or being bumped off the flight in the case of Y pax) usually accomplished by finding volunteers prepared to fly in a lower class or on the following flight in exchange for a suitable number of $$$s.
On the rare occasions when I've seen this happen, it hasn't been difficult to find such volunteers. I appreciate that this isn't what rmac was looking for - but it could have removed the irritation of the two other customers.
Hello all, just back from another trip (not with BA!) and still no response from BA.
PaxV. There was only one young Chinese girl representing BA, doing her best, but time and options were in short supply. In the circumstances she did the best possible job :D
Its her airline management that I am pointing the finger at in this thread.
apaddyinuk
2nd Oct 2006, 01:24
paddy, maybe you have the answer, if there was an airframe change with a 13F instead of 14F. If that is true, perhaps if it had been explained, with a gesture of compensation attached, I would fully understand.
On your East Coast route overbooking, I would also think its not a huge deal, due to the alternative flights available within a few hours.
By the way, I am still waiting a response from BA on my original communication, even to acknowledge receipt :(
Well usually when its a change of aircraft from a 14f to a 13f it would be all done very last minute and Im sure the poor sod that does get singled out as the downgrade would understand why (hopefully because it was explained professionally by a ground colleague..ahem!). And your correct about the East Coast but I must admit I have yet to hear of First/Club being overbooked on one of my flights although I dont doubt it does happen.
As for contacting customer relations regarding your experience. Did you email the Exec Club or customer relations? Cabin Crew have a direct email link to the main customer relations department but anytime I have used it I have had to wait weeks for a response. Try the Exec Club or even giving them a call so that it will get actioned sooner. (Exec Club = 0870 850 4 850. Normal Customer Relations = 0870 850 9 850 or +44 191 490 7901) Let me know how you get on as Im rather curious myself!!!
Thanks Paddy, I'll give that a try
Taildragger67
2nd Oct 2006, 16:04
But FF that would have irritated Two customers who had also paid their money, rather than one?
Solution like this would've been to find a J willing to stay (at BA's cost) an extra night in PEK, plus Warsaw Convention cash, in return for guaranteed uplift the following day and either:
- a swag of BA miles, or
- upgrade to F on the next day's flight.
They would've had a taker (or several, amazing what an upgrade will do... ).
I'm a bit surprised they didn't offer to route via HK onto the BA services from there; would've also given more options within oneworld (QF, CX). That would've been a back-track, but possibly quicker than the eventual via BKK & ZRH.
Just face it; occasionally the yield-management sums get it a bit wrong. The test will be in the service recovery and I hope mac will be balanced enough to let us know what BA come up with (or don't... )
Threaten to pull your first-class business in favour of The Hairy One and see how fast they move. :}
Taildragger - Being a Friday every seat to HK was booked solid, no options there at all, or via Seoul or Tokyo. Not only is it not good to overbook on a route with a single daily service - but probably not a good idea to do it on a Friday.
I will be balanced enough to let you all know what BA come up with....its just that its been over a week and still no reply.
Final 3 Greens
3rd Oct 2006, 06:36
rmac
I would writ a personal letter to Willie Walsh, were I you with a breif outline of what happened.
Then ask him when you an expect a reply.
Received an email from the BA rep at Beijing airport today, the poor harrassed young girl at check in previously referred to, asking if my re-route had been OK and thanking me for being understanding on the day.
Very good of her to send it personally, I don't know if it was on her own initiative :) , or if customer service bounced it back to her to deal with :eek: as she made no reference to a complaint !
Very confused :ugh:
F3G I would write to Willie Walsh, but I don't believe that the letter would make it through the "screening process", and frankly I don't believe that it would make any difference.
I'm not that bothered about compensation, I want to know if BA have any respect for their customers (or their own staff at check in for that matter). Still waiting for confirmation that they do :confused:
Taildragger67
4th Oct 2006, 09:19
F3G I would write to Willie Walsh, but I don't believe that the letter would make it through the "screening process", and frankly I don't believe that it would make any difference.
I'm not that bothered about compensation, I want to know if BA have any respect for their customers (or their own staff at check in for that matter). Still waiting for confirmation that they do :confused:
Back in the Ayling days, when I carried a gold card :{ I had strong reason to whinge, I wrote a letter to Ayling (explaining that I didn't expect him to deal with it personally but as I'd got nowhere going up the chain, I thought I should start going down it instead). I also tried to be a bit constructive in my letter.
Within days, I got a signed note from his PA (now left) asking me to call her to discuss. I know it was from the CEO's office as when I went to call, I didn't have the letter on me, just called the corporate general number and asked for the CEO's office and was put through to the lady who wrote the letter.
In the Eddington days (still gold EC), I had an instance of brilliant/above-and-beyond service and in the interests of balance, wanted Rod to know about it. This time, a personal thank-you note signed by the Rhodes Scholar himself.
Another time, when I'd missed a connection due solely to bad info given to me by BA, I incurred a £40 taxi fare - which they reimbursed me for after a whinge to Customer Services.
So they do get through (at least they did) and I'd suggest being a note from a First passenger or gold(/black) EC member probably helps it get into the boss's in-tray.
I should point out that I became a gold EC cardholder because I chose to continue to give BA my custom; the product was solid and consistent across nearly all the routes I flew.
Give it a shot; nought to lose but the first-class stamp.
Final 3 Greens
4th Oct 2006, 09:24
rmac
I'd agree with Taidragger.
BA senior management tends to be surprisingly responsive.
Often they are a long way from the coalface and are not aware of operational problems.
bealine
7th Oct 2006, 08:03
I would confirm that a letter to Willie Walsh would NOT be screened out of the way! Unlike some of his British Airways predecessors, he does not hide from customers or staff alike and prefers to tackle adversity head on!
It is true that he has a Personal Assistant who reads his mail and handles any straightforward complaints directly, but I believe WW is kept informed in case he bumps into the complainant at a business lunch somewhere. (.....and, the bosses' PA is a senior figure in BA anyway, with as much clout as the "Great Man" himself!)
In the OP scenario, I do not believe we deliberately oversold the First cabin. BA does not, as a general rule, oversell First or Club World unless a particular route (eg Lagos, Accra) has a high Premium Cabin No Show record. The downgrade is most likely to have been caused by an administrative error where we have inadvertently oversold the cabin or an operational problem such as an aircraft change or broken seats, but the real reason obviously hasn't been communicated properly to you. As the injured party, you definitely had a right to know why we had to bump you, and I trust we looked after your properly when it came to managing your wishes for rebooking and compensating you. With BA only having its own staff these days at LHR and LGW, it is a sad down side of using handling agents that they don't really have much interest in our customers "feel-good factor" when things go wrong!
My sincere apologies for your inconvenience, please do go ahead and write to Willie Walsh. You have nothing to lose and you will find out what really was behind your downgrade!