Flight tests - does everyone pass them?

[AusFlygal]

In the period leading up to getting my CPL and since then, I have spoken to a number of instructors about flight tests, standards and all the general stuff you ask about when you have a test looming - but then I noticed a familiar pattern emerging. I found that the general consensus among those who have been involved in aviation for a while (20+ years) is that no-one fails flight tests anymore - is that true?

I have to admit that I haven't met anyone yet that has failed a flight test (who will admit to it at least anyway) so I'm beginning to think that unfortunately they may be right. I would like to think that I worked hard for my CPL and that I earned it and deserve to have it. I shudder to think that those who have been around a while would have the opinion that my licence isn't worth the paper it is written on.

I look forward to getting your feedback.

:p

[thinking pilot]

Cpl test first time pass with Dick Cooper

Instructor test, two goes with John Lindsay

Instrument rating, two goes with Barry Diamond

[The Bullwinkle]

I have had friends fail the CPL flight test first time around, and I know many who passed first time. A good instructor won't put a candidate up for his/her test until he/she is satisfied that they will pass.
Having said that, I know of one instructor whose job was placed in jeopardy because he refused to pass a student who was below par.
Failing a test is not necessarily a bad thing. It can highlight particular areas that need attention, and therefore more training can be focussed on those deficiencies so that the next time, the student will be more confident, and therefore more likely to pass.
Remember, the only people who have never failed, are those who have never tried !
BW

[ContactMeNow]

I had two goes at my CPL flight test. The 1st flight was great, until i decided to stall the plane 1 foot above the runway on the LAST LANDING! Thus failed the test as it was deemed to be "unsafe". The retest was just 3 CCTS and I greased all of them....


GOOOOOOOOOOODDDDDDD :E

CMN :ok:

[404 Titan]

Failed my CPL and IR first go around. Learnt from it and moved on. Having said that those tests were conducted when flight test were only done by the CAA or DCA as it was called then. I am of the firm opinion that when the CAA started allowing flying schools to do flight tests “in house”, the standards dropped considerably, to the point now that a CPL licence may as well have come out of a Corn Flakes packet. :yuk:

[Andy_RR]

...until i decided to stall the plane 1 foot above the runway on the LAST LANDING!

excuse the thread drift, but isn't that how you're supposed to land an aircraft? I mean perfect = 0ft, but 1ft isn't exactly going to be a hard landing!

[ContactMeNow]

excuse the thread drift, but isn't that how you're supposed to land an aircraft? I mean perfect = 0ft, but 1ft isn't exactly going to be a hard landing!

It is when your at idle power with a fairly high nose attitude....was enough to make the landing uncomfortable and the ATO "brace himself"...

It was probably the comment I made to him after , "I have done worse" that got him a tad worried :E

CMN :ok:

[kookabat]

Hey CMN,
Was I not following you around in the circuit on the 'retest'?? :ok:

They all looked bouncy to me!:E

[Chimbu chuckles]

Agree with 404.

I got all my licences and ratings via the good graces:ugh: of DCA/CAA examiners of airmen. Failed my initial UPPL flight test with 'Come again' Col Roffe and failed my initial Instructors Rating (in the briefing:rolleyes: ) with Max 'the axe' Holdsworth. Passed both a week after the initial attempts.

These two individuals, among some others, looked for reasons to fail you...and sometimes failed you with no valid reason.

When old Max was listening to my long brief on stalling so was every member of my course and some of the Instructors from the other side of the partition. At the end of it Max said to prepare my short brief on something else while he went and organised 'transport'. When he had gone all my coursemates and the Instructors came in and congratulated me on 'nailing it'. Max came back and listened to my short brief which I also nailed...then he failed me and went back into Goulbourn st.

A week later, again with Max, but now my briefs were a mess from extreme nerves..rambling, talking to the white board etc...we flew and that went well...at the end he passed me with the comment "Young man you have a real talent for teaching".:ugh: :hmm: :uhoh: :rolleyes:

I passed both my CPL and initial Command Instrument Ratings first go.

EDIT: And first go on SCPL, ATPL and close to 30 renewals since.

[Capt. Crocodile]

Failed Restricted PPL years ago when it was a CAA exam - That was with "Do-it-again" Mal, he used to fail 80% on their first go just because he could.
Passed Unrestricted PPL first go
Passed NVFR first go
Passed CPL first go
Passed MECIR first go
Depends a lot on who you get I suppose.

[tinpis]

Har har yer all wimps you shoulda met "Oil-can Harry" :mad:

[Pinky the pilot]

I did much the same as 404Titan; Failed both CPL and initial IFR rating flight tests, but learned from the experience and moved on. Passed both on the subsequent attempts.

I can remember clearly the debrief after the IFR test which was flown on a 'shocker' of a day with very strong winds at altitude. The examiner told me that after he had informed me that I had 'blown it' on the NDB approach he saw me ''visibly relax'.'' We headed back to YPAD where he got me to do an ILS and said that I flew the whole approach 'one handed, yawning every minute or so and never got further than one dot off centre.':ok:

Just shows what one can do if the nerves don't interfere!

[haughtney1]

Passed my CPL and IR first time in NZ...:ok:

Then after 4 years of operational flying I took 2 attempts to pass my UK CPL & IR:ooh:
Same as previously said, learnt from it, and I take a completely different approach these days:ok:

[Ratshit]

PPL - passed 1st go - Dept TO
NVFR - passed 1st go - ATO
CPL - passed 1st go - Dept TO
Instructors rating - passed 1st go - Dept TO
SECIR - passed 1st go - Dept TO
MECIR - bombed 1st go - Dept TO - passed 2nd go - Dept TO (getting old!)
20 MECIR renewals - bombed 2 first time around (when uncurrent) - passed on 2nd attempt - all ATOs

Never "been failed" - managed to fluck it up all on my own

Still hate renewals!

R:cool:

[ContactMeNow]

Hey CMN,
Was I not following you around in the circuit on the 'retest'?? :ok:

They all looked bouncy to me!:E


Nah, all the landings were great. Only got charged for the set of Touch and goes. Although, I hear you were up for a fair few landing fees :}

CMN :ok:

[captain high]

I passed all of my flight tests first go, except CPL. The funny thing is that I knew that I wouldn't stand much of a chance as a lot of my friends and colleagues had sat the CPL test before me and had all passed first go. This put pressure on the testing officer to fail the next candidate, me, so as to keep his reputation in tacked. My advice, sit the CPL test after a few failures:E

[Cha]

I passed CPL in one go, CIR in one go, Inst rating in one go, FAILED on inst rating renewal.

Where I worked, there were few people failed on the CPL test.
But thing is, if you are not ready (if instructor think you are not gonna pass), then they are not supposed to put you on a flight test. The reason is, you will spend more money and time if you fail on the test because you can't go straight back to re-test, you have to have some extre training again before retest plus another testing fee. Also I heard that if a flying school have too many failed students, they are gonna get in trouble with CASA. That's why a school make sure you are ready to pass the test before put you on the test. So if all boxes are ticked you are not gonna fail on the test. That's maybe why not many people fails on the test.

[the dean]

AUSFLYGAL..

''I found that the general consensus among those who have been involved in aviation for a while (20+ years) is that no-one fails flight tests anymore - is that true?''

not so...and i assume the situation there similar to here .
candidates DO fail...but happily the standard of instruction these days even in small flying clubs is good.

highest failure rates for me at any rate...not the CPL..nor the FIR..but the PPL..and the lapsed ( often for a medical reason )PPL among older aviators.

so do'nt assume.:= .........keep doing the circuits....:ok:

[the dean]

[quote=ContactMeNow;2865840]I had two goes at my CPL flight test. The 1st flight was great, until i decided to stall the plane 1 foot above the runway on the LAST LANDING! Thus failed the test as it was deemed to be "unsafe". The retest was just 3 CCTS and I greased all of them....


seems harsh decision...

a partial would have been fairer but maybe the was something else...like speed control...which would breach several sections but it does not sound like that..

if you aircraft was a tail dragger i would want you to stall it at that height or lower if possible...

if not it still sounds like a good landing to me...assuming you did'nt turn right on touchdowm towards the nearest hanger...!!!!

if all else went well ( and i assume it did) i would have asked you to do it again...if the second did not go well...i would give a partial..that would be cheaper on you than a full new test..

anyway well done despite the possible harsh decision..you got it second time...and its all experience:ok:

[pakeha-boy]

C.C.... blokes like MAX need to be shown the door.....aviation doesnt need these types of individuals....In saying that,I,m not advocating passing any and all that dont make the grade....but,the one thing a good instructor needs to do is to "set the tone" so that you give it your best shot and pass...nobody does well with some pr#ck breathing down your neck..

me,...never flunked a ride(cash is always best$$$$$$)...but 8 violations and two crashes....:{ :{ :{ :{ :ugh: :(

[Howard Hughes]

I have in my log book 5.8 hours of torture for my CPL flight test, you guessed it for a FAIL!!:*

Got it on the second go (much shorter at 2.4). The good old days of the CAA (not), I for one don't yearn for time when examiners failed pilots, 'because they could'.:hmm:

Whilst I had to 'earn' my CPL, I must say the examiner exhibited no attributes which made me a safer pilot, nor any attitude that I would aspire to, either as a training captain or examiner.:yuk:

Anyway sorry to digress AusFlygal, in answer to your question, all you need to do is go in with a positive attitude, demonstrate what you have learnt and the rest will take care of itself. If you do fail, don't worry many before you have suffered the same fate, just pick yourself up, dust yourself off and give it another go. A fail in any element of your training will not hinder you in the future, potential employers will be more interested in how you 'overcome your setbacks', rather than the 'setbacks' themselves...;)

Good luck and let us know how you go!!:ok:

[27/09]

Tinny,

Har har yer all wimps you shoulda met "Oil-can Harry"

Would that be "Not today" Harold from NZPP

[Chimbu chuckles]

PB Max would be in his mid 80s if he is still around. He was a P40 pilot in PNG and was the Meteor pilot who failed to shoot down the Auster off Sydney when his cannons jammed, in the mid 50s. Col Roffe would be at least as old having been a C47 pilot during and after WW2.

I hold no malice towards them...they were products of their era and maintained the standards the only way they knew how.

I think the ATO system leaves a lot to be desired...a return to staff examiners would be no bad thing....if CASA could attract the right type of individual:ugh:

[essbee]

Never failed a flight test in more than 30 years of on /off flying. And this was back in the good old days when you had to do one every 6 months. Had ole' Col Roffe for initial IFR test and used a bit of nous as I heard through the grape vine that he liked to get back to BK for lunch. Used this information and didn't stuff up too much and passed , much to everyone's chagrin. Not trying to boast, just stating a fact although, there are a few occasions where I would have failed myself but I guess the examiner didn't see or saw something else.

Not flying much at the moment, I'm not prepared to accept the crappy wages and conditions on offer in GA, Too old for airlines.:\ :\ :\ :hmm:

[Ratshit]

Tinny, Would that be "Not today" Harold from NZPP

Ah this brings back fond memories!

I did my C Cat Instructors Rating during a stint in NZ.

The departmental testing officer was one Harold B....... A man with a fearful reputation. People used to wear t-shirts that read "I too have been failed by Harold B......!"

My test day started about 09:30 with long and short briefings, had an early lunch and then went flying for a couple of hours and then filled out the afternoon with a prolonged oral on Principles of Flight.

At 16:55 he said "Well, that was successful"! and we spent the next 30 minutes in a debrief.

Up to that point I had no idea whether or not I had failed in the first 5 minutes. Not a hint of feedback for more than 7 hrs.

However, in fairness to Harold B......, I must tell the other side of the story. He once tested and failed a CPL candidate maybe 3 times before writing on the file "this candidate should never be issued with a CPL - displays a complete lack of logical decision making". The individual in question when to another part of NZ away from HB's jurisdiction and was put up for another test, at which they passed.

Before the ink was dry on the licence, this new CPL was dead - along with 4 or 5 passengers in a "VFR flight continued into IFR conditions".

Its more than 20 years ago so I may not have all the details correct - but the guts of the story is there.

R:cool:

[tinpis]

Rats nah....not Harry B---- .Bugga me thats a name from the past um like ...nearly forty years ago?:ooh:

[Ratshit]

Rats nah....not Harry B---- .Bugga me thats a name from the past um like ...nearly forty years ago?:ooh:

TP, I'm talking 1985. I think he retired not long after. Interesting bloke - Used to tell a story about teaching himself to fly the DH98 Mosquito while in NZAF.

"You take the Mosquito in your left hand and the pilot's manual in your right hand - and you figure out how to make it work"

R:cool:

[rogerexplosion]

Instructor test, two goes with John Lindsay


Hahahahaha me too. He loves that ball in the centre. Two goes as well with him for CPL. That man is a living legend. 70 odd and flown just about every aircraft man built.

[pakeha-boy]

CC ...yeah mate..take back all I said about the bloke.....and would show the man my respect....like you say ..different era,s etc etc....the "modern era" has produced it own ..lets say...."difficult" instructors....but I stand by my remark about setting the tone....everybody passes until they fail themselves....being a pro-active check pilot,instuctor will produce a pro-active performance..its good for everybody...PB

[ccy sam]

I got all my licences in Perth in the early 80s. Only failed the Cpl once. From memory ALL the Department examiners were ex RAAF. Some were good, some had the "civies should not be flying" attitude, including the chief examiner who had a volcanic temper. Now what was his name?

[puff]

I've gone through in the last 10 years and confirm people do still fail, i'm one of them! After spending about 3 hours being grilled by the ATO on questions for the CPL off we went. After about 3 hours I was exhausted and he started to grill me about where the homestead was, I lost it and said I don't know...ok you've failed, as I mutted those words I said there it is, but I said I didn't know, and that was it.

Did everything else ok but still went back, and had to go and do another whole nav, to finally get the pass. I was doing my flying as a solo student, and I was amazing how solo payers were getting 3-4 hour CPL flightests and the students on the courses were getting at times 2.6s. Even a few instructors at the time had a go at the ATO and said why do you seem to expect such a higher standard out of the 'standard' students than the one on the courses. It was a pain but I guess you know you really earned it as well.

Also failed my 2nd renewal, tried to do it without a flight beforehand and just wasn't up to speed with the engine failures etc. So it does happen! I've been told by ATOs that if they don't fail a certain percent that CASA can begin to question them and may start doing 'ride alongs' to ensure that they are not being overly generous.

[Ricky Bobby]

Before my CPL flight test a few years ago I heard both sides of the story; 'he's a pr!ck that will fail you for anything' from other students who had failed to 'he realises your gonna be nervous and isn't out to fail you' from the instructors.

I found the latter to be the case, it was all over in 3 hours. I believe nerves bring a lot of test candidates undone, just do what you were taught and you'll be right :ok:.

[TinKicker]

Hi,
given that this thread has the potential for many to learn from - here is my story.
I have held a licence to fly fixed wing for over 30 years, over 20 of them in the Commercial or higher Category. I also hold rotary wing qualifications at the Commerical category as well. I have endorsements on 12 different twin engine aircraft and over 4,000 hours in the logbooks. So this comes from a bit of experience.
According to my logbooks I have passed all required flight tests at the first attempt, and the early ones were with those well known individuals mentioned earlier in this thread - such as 'Come again Col" etc.
One of my first instructors - now flying as a Senior Check for QF told me that flight tests are not much different to any other flight - provided you fly each flight to a high personal standard. He told me this is the key.....everything becomes 'standard' for you so when you have to perform during the test, it is nothing new for you.
Another instructor told me that to prepare for a test, it begins about 3 weeks before the actual test itself. Go through everything on the test form yourself, if you can't do it or don't know it - go away and practice it or learn it. He said that they can't do anything else than what is on the form. He also said that if you are personally not ready for the test - delay it until you are.
I have just completed my 24th MECIR renewal. The first 2 were with DCA/CAA and few others were with CAA/CASA FOIs because of the position that I held in a flying school. I applied this same approach to all of them and have not had a problem. The same went for ME training approval.
My Grade 1 instructor test lasted over 8 hours from commencement to signoff. This was with a CAA FOI and there was a considerable ground component on top of the required briefings. I delayed that on two occasions because I wasn't ready - not the other way around.
I hope to continue this approach to flight tests - there is nothing mystical about them - provided you approach them the right way. I still fly for a living, but not as often as I like - but my current job has me in contact with Aviation every day.
So the message is - YOU are in control of when you take the test - make sure that YOU are ready and then take the test. Preparation is the key and that starts well before the test and most of it does not involve being in an aircraft - you can do a lot of it in a lounge chair at home.
Hope this helps someone pass a test.....
Tinkicker