SB clearance - N reg

[stiknruda]

Please forgive the banality of this post but I've just had a discussion with a n other who insists that if I fly my N reg to Jersey from sunny Norfolk, I can dispense with the SB clearance.

I am so confused!

Please tell me he is right and I am wrong:\ :\


The discussion started because of the Avgas pricing imbalance - "Heh Stik, why don't you take your 182 to Jersey and fill her up there - if you land on fumes then 112USG at Jersey prices will easily pay for the trip. You could even take a bird and make a w/e of it. Shame you didn't go last w/e as Kylie's brother Danny was doing a free concert at a beer festival. It's easy in an N reg, none of that SB bollocks.


So what is the cost of fuel in Jersey?

Thanks

Stik

[IO540]

It's a very interesting point, and would not suprise me if the letter of the law supports it. I doubt it's true though because the SB stuff is more to do with watching people than planes.

Yes, filling up abroad is worth doing but you have to add up the total cost of the flight: hour based servicing, any timed parts, engine fund, prop fund, etc. I have looked at it and it's possibly worth doing if you live very close to the CI.

For SB you need just a fax. They like to call you, often in the early hours of the morning, with a 3-digit "permission number" but this is just a job creation scheme; you have fulfilled your legal obligation by sending the fax.

[WorkingHard]

IO540 - Spot on. So many people (including Pilot mag) believe one needs SB clearance when in fact, as you say, all one needs to do is notify them of the intended flight at least 2 hours before departure. Some SB departments also continue with this myth in the wording of the forms they like us to use.

[Jodelman]

I believe that The Terrorism Act does not specify that you have to tell SB. Any police officier will do.

[bookworm]

who insists that if I fly my N reg to Jersey from sunny Norfolk, I can dispense with the SB clearance

It's nonsense. 12 hours notification to the police is required (unless departing from a designated airport) regardless of the aircraft nationality.

But perhaps more relevant, you need customs to go to/from Jersey. That requires a Customs & Excise Airport or (usually) 24 hours notice at a GA concession airport.

[stiknruda]

Now I am really confused!!!

I was under the impression that I could go from a private strip as long as I informed HMC&E more than FOUR hours before I departed.

[SkyHawk-N]

You don't have to go through a customs airport. I believe you need to give them 12 hours notice of flying to the CIs (none to Europe) and 4 hours before your intended return for them to turn up if they are interested. In Narfark it probably won't happen that often, they fear the inbreds! :}

[DaveW]

Now I am really confused!!!
I was under the impression that I could go from a private strip as long as I informed HMC&E more than FOUR hours before I departed.

You can, there is no need to depart or return via a UK Customs airfield wherever you are going - EU, non-EU or the "Common Travel Area" (CI, IoM, Eire, NI).

Who you notify and how long in advance, or if required at all, depends on what your destination is.

There's a lot of confusion here - and I'm not remotely surprised. It's ridiculous and illogical.

For the CI you need to give SB 12H notice, AND you need to inform Customs & Immigration 12H in advance as well (if you were going to a non-EU country, the notification period would be 24H for C&I, but no SB notification required).

If going to an EU destination you can DEPART without informing anyone in the UK (expect AIS for the flight plan) - the 4 hours notice period is for your return to said farm strip. (You may, however, need to inform your European destination if THAT isn't an H24 Customs field)

It takes some time to get your head around all this, which is why I produced an aide memoire (http://www.atsx91.dsl.pipex.com/Documents/Channel_Crossing_Aide_Memoire.doc).

[bookworm]

You can, there is no need to depart or return via a UK Customs airfield wherever you are going - EU, non-EU or the "Common Travel Area" (CI, IoM, Eire, NI).

While what you write is correct, Dave, it may be misleading.

You can depart to/arrive from EU countries from anywhere in the UK, strips included. However, if going to/from non-EU countries, including the Channel Islands, you need to use a GAA aerodrome or Customs airport unless you have an explicit agreement with HMR&C.

[dublinpilot]

The Special Branch requirements are contained in the Terrorism Act.

Specifically Schedule 7, Section 12.

SCH7(12)(3):

(3) Where an aircraft is employed on a journey to which this paragraph applies otherwise than to carry passengers for reward, the captain of the aircraft shall not permit it to call at or leave a port in Great Britain or Northern Ireland unless-

(a) the port is a designated port, or
(b) he gives at least 12 hours' notice in writing to a constable for the police area in which the port is situated (or, where the port is in Northern Ireland, to a member of the Royal Ulster Constabulary).


Permission is required where passengers are being carried for rewards.

No mention is made of the aircraft registery. It is simply "an aircraft". Therefore it would apply to G reg, N reg, F reg, EI reg etc...

The Terrorism Act itself can be found by clicking here. (http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/20000011.htm)

Customs requirements are obviously additional to this.

dp

[S-Works]

While what you write is correct, Dave, it may be misleading.
You can depart to/arrive from EU countries from anywhere in the UK, strips included. However, if going to/from non-EU countries, including the Channel Islands, you need to use a GAA aerodrome or Customs airport unless you have an explicit agreement with HMR&C.

Not sure you are right on that one Bookworm. We have operated from our privatre strip for years back and forth to Europe and the CI. I go every couple of weeks to the CI and just fill in the paperwork and fax as required the night before. We have had one visit in years as a routine call and nothing has ever been said about requiring a specific agreement. In fact HMCE are very accomodating and if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear.

[DaveW]

Hmm. Interesting one this. Bookworm's not usually wrong, and I'm now doubting that he is this time (as I originally believed).
The reverse of the GAR Form (http://www.hmce.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/downloadFile?contentID=HMCE_PROD_009149) states:
AT PRIVATE AIRFIELDS AND HELIPADS YOU CAN ONLY FLY TO AND FROM OTHER EU COUNTRIES, UNLESS YOU HAVE AN AGREEMENT TO DO SO. IN PARTICULAR, FLIGHTS TO/FROM THE CHANNEL ISLANDS WILL NEED TO BE AGREED WITH CUSTOMS AND POLICE.
THE NOTIFICATION PERIOD IS THE SAME AS FOR GAA AIRFIELDS.
I had understood that (following an earlier discussion that I can naturally no longer find to reference) to be that appropriate notification without Customs or SB demurral constituted agreement. This was based on an interpretation of the final sentence, along with the wording used for GAA Airfields:
AT A GAA AIRFIELD YOU CAN FLY TO AND FROM ANYWHERE, BUT THERE ARE DIFFERING PERIODS OF PRIOR NOTIFICATION REQUIRED DEPENDING ON YOUR DESTINATION/DEPARTURE POINT.
OUTWARDS – TO ANOTHER EU COUNTRY THERE IS NO OBLIGATION TO ADVISE CUSTOMS OF YOUR DEPARTURE.
OUTWARDS – TO A NON EU COUNTRY (INC CHANNEL ISLANDS*) YOU MUST NOTIFY CUSTOMS AT LEAST 24 HOURS PRIOR TO DEPARTURE.
INWARDS – FROM ANOTHER EU COUNTRY – 4 HOURS PRIOR TO ARRIVAL
INWARDS – FROM A NON EU COUNTRY – 24 HOURS PRIOR TO ARRIVAL
*CHANNEL ISLANDS – NOTIFICATION PERIOD IS 12 HOURS.
I'm now not so confident, so will need to check with HMRC and the local Ports Unit. I'll report back.

[DFC]

Forget trawling through Act and other legal docs.

The GEN section of the AIP (for any country) will have a section that clearly lays dow the requirments. The UK is no different.

Read the GEN section ad you will not go wrong.

Regards,

DFC

[Johnm]

This comes up over and over again and it is unquestionably a real pain in the neck. There is a logic to it but it is tortured logic.

Common Travel Area, includes EU and non EU territories, basically Ireland, IoM and Channel islands 12 hours notice in both directions to Police (in practice SB) and Customs.

EU no notice of departure required 4 hours notice of return to Customs and Immigration (we're not Schengen) police not interested

Non EU 24 hours notice to Customs and Immigration both directions.

I'd love to meet the individual who wrote the rules:eek:

None of the above applies if you leave and enter via a port of entry.:ugh:

[stiknruda]

I thank all of you who responded, I now know where I stand!

[welkyboy]

To get back to the original question. Fuel cost in Jersey at the moment is 84p per litre, if you are a AOPA member this is reduced by 5%. This price is fixed until the 30th September when a new price(lower??) will come into force for October. The price dropped from 91p in August.
Remember to claim the drawback of 28.10p per litre of all fuel on board on leaving UK (use form HO60)
You must inform Special Branch in Norwich( fax number on reverse of GAR form) both outward from and inward to the UK of your intended movements.

[bookworm]

Not sure you are right on that one Bookworm. We have operated from our privatre strip for years back and forth to Europe and the CI. I go every couple of weeks to the CI and just fill in the paperwork and fax as required the night before. We have had one visit in years as a routine call and nothing has ever been said about requiring a specific agreement. In fact HMCE are very accomodating and if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear.
It's up to Customs to make whatever exceptions it sees fit, so if that's what you've been doing and it's accepted, that's fine for you. I've also always found all three authorities involved to be helpful and reasonable. But the text on the GAR form as quoted by DaveW suggests that an explicit agreement is required to clear customs at a private strip.

[DaveW]

Forget trawling through Act and other legal docs.
The GEN section of the AIP (for any country) will have a section that clearly lays dow the requirments. The UK is no different.
Read the GEN section ad you will not go wrong.
Regards,
DFC

Unfortunately that's not the case - UK AIP GEN 1.2 and 1.3 (http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/pubs/aip/pdf/gen/10102.PDF) provide no clarification additional to that available in the GAR form guidance notes, and in fact has less detail.

[DaveW]

I promised to report back after checking with HMRC and the Ports Unit.

The latter response will have to wait a week or so, as my local SB man provided a friendly response to say he is otherwise engaged but will respond when able.

I asked the following:
Let me take the example of a GA flight to/from the Channel Islands, departing from and arriving to a private airfield.
Would it be correct, for a pilot planning to undertake this journey, to submit notification to HMRC 12 hours in advance and then depart? Or is there a requirement for the pilot to receive an explicit response from HMRC agreeing to the flights taking place?

If the latter:
What form should this HMRC response take?
What alternatives are there (if any) if a response is not received prior to the planned departure time?

Also:
Is a specific agreement required for every flight of this type? Or;
Is there the potential to negotiate a longer term agreement in principle for non-EU/CI flights from that private airfield, subject of course to appropriate notification in each individual case?

Finally, the GAR Form explicitly refers to the Channel Islands, but what about the Isle of Man? (Northern Island and Eire are part of the EU, so I understand the requirements for those elements of the CTA). Is 24 hours notice to HMRC, and agreement, required for flights to/from the IoM?


A prompt reply from a most helpful HMRC representative says:
I will attempt to clarify, what I agree is a very confusing situation !
Unfortunatley there is a bit of a history lesson that goes with the explanation. Prior to 1/1/1993 if you wished to fly foreign you had to clear inwards and outwards through a Customs Designated airfield of give 24 hours notice to fly in or out of a Customs Concession airfield. With the Uk entering the EU it was decided to relax these conditions so it was possible to fly to any Eu destination from anywhere in the Uk with no notification and return with 4 hours notification. Some of the previous 'concession' airfields wish to retain the ability for flights to arrive / depart from/to non EU airfields. These airfields were invited to enter into an agreement (the GAA) with the department specifying conditions and periods of notice. Some airfields that were not concession airfields also entered into such agreements. The period of notice for non-EU flights (including the Channel Islands was set at 24hours. A few years ago the police reduced their notice for CTA flights down to 12 hours nationally. Customs brought their period of notice for Channel Islands flights in line with this.

To answer your specific question :-
1. A flight to/from the Channel Islands should only take place from/to a Designated or GAA airfield as it is outside the EU.

2. 12 hours faxed or emailed notice is required. The submission of the details is considered to be authorisation for the flight to take place. No specific authorisation will be give(n). [DW emphasis]

3. A GAA can be applied for from our Approvals Unit in Birmingham:-
2 Broadway
Fiveways
Birmingham
B15 1BG Tel: 0121 697 4045

4. The IOM is in the UK Customs Territory and no notification is required from a Customs point of view although Special Branch clearance is required.


Subsequent request by me for clarification:

It appears from what you say (despite the implication of the wording of the GAR Form notes) that an agreement to fly direct to the CI (or other non-EU) from a private strip can only be achieved if an application is made for the strip to be a GAA. Is that correct?

A final question (acknowledging your provision of contact details for the Approvals unit): are you able to give me a brief overview of what's entailed in becoming a GAA?


To which he replied:
The first point is correct. From a customs point of view any non-EU flight (incl. C.I) should only take place from a designated or GAA airfield.

I've copied below the basic wording for the agreement. Full details can be found at :-
http://tinyurl.com/gojn5 (http://tinyurl.com/gojn5)

Open up the book in pdf format and Section 10 covers what we have been discussing.

16.2 shows a draft agreement.
http://www.atsx91.dsl.pipex.com/Misc/GAA_conditionsjpg.jpg
The front of the certificate shows what flights this would cover (EU, non-EU etc.). The * would have specific details in.


So, in summary:

We "should" all be transiting via a GAA or Customs airfield when travelling to a non-EU destination - including the Channel Islands.

CI direct from a private strip, even if giving 12 hours notice, is against the letter of the rules.

It's interesting to note how apparently straightforward obtaining a "General Aviation Agreement" is.

I'll finish this off with the Special Branch response when I receive it, at which point I will update and correct my aide memoire (http://www.atsx91.dsl.pipex.com/Going_Foreign.htm).

[IO540]

Fantastic work Dave and thank you for going to the trouble of posting the detail.

[stiknruda]

Dave,

I concur with IO540!

Thanks

So what I will do to alleviate the buggeration factor is fax minus 12h, go DCT Cherbourg, clear inbound - then a short hop to Jersey!