ScotAirways [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums

Eff Oh

20th Sep 2006, 15:17

Ryanair 1
Who rattled your cage?
"What makes me laugh is that an airline named after Scotland, with a Scottish tartan logo, flies between SOUTHampton and Amsterdam!!!"

Why does that make you laugh exactly? How about an Irish airline, Irish reg, American built aeroplanes, flown by non Irish crew who are based in LONDON Stansted, in and out of Prestwick or Edinburgh, which is in SCOTLAND by the way!!! That's called cabotage BTW. :D
As for ScotAirways, well as Scotland is part of the UK then ScotAirways is classed as a BRITISH company. The name or colour scheme is of no bearing on anything, so laugh or not, they can fly wherever they like. See "Air Scotland/Greece Airways!" Does "British" Airways make you laugh too when they only have bases in LHR and LGW?? Shouldn't it be London Airways? :D
Personally I'd love to see Scotland as a seperate country with our own reg and all our aeroplanes painted in tartan. Then we could be left alone to our Haggis and Irn Bru! :rolleyes: (But that is for another thread!) :ok:

LeftatRomeoOne

20th Sep 2006, 17:47

Well said Eff Oh! Couldn't have said it better myself - except it's Diet Irn Bru nowadays!!

goldeneye

20th Sep 2006, 17:57

Eff Oh

Well said Eff oh.

Also lets not forget British Caledonian - Tartan Uniforms, Scottish names for aircraft, Lion Rampart on the tails oh and where was it based London Gatwick.

Barnaby the Bear

20th Sep 2006, 21:50

Air Berlin between Stansted and Belfast City too. Whatever next :8

IB4138

21st Sep 2006, 05:33

Donaldson International....thistle on the tail...Gatwick based.

SWBKCB

11th Nov 2006, 16:43

Quick heads up for those Ppruners who can get BBC4 - at 21.00 next Thursday (16/11/06). The original programme about the setting up of Suckling from 1990, with an update...
"9:00 pm 40 Minutes On
Darling Let's Set Up an Airline: In 1990 40 Minutes told the surprising story of a husband and wife team who started the UK's smallest international airline, how did they get on?"
:)

EI-BUD

19th Nov 2006, 03:13

Does anyone have any ideas what is going on at Scot Airways. The airline is operating 7 aircraft and only has 3 routes in its timetable

I was visiting LCY in July and 4 of there aircraft were parked idol at the airport, surely this must be costing them a fortune. The Sou/Ams route is now in competition with BE and it must be losing another fortune/

Since the Suckling family have taken back control of the airline, that tells me that things are not so good anybody got any comments. I would be surprised if the company is around in 6 months.

It’s a pity they had not done a VLM type operation at LCY and become truly a good little profitable niche operator.

Meeb

19th Nov 2006, 07:16

The writing is on the wall regards Scotty I am afraid.... :(

There was an article in a newspaper recently which said they owe Souter 2.5 Million pounds! Even allowing for journo's it does not look good.

Could have been a great little airline, but its come to this, probably will be bought out by another, maybe VLM or City Star.

WHBM

19th Nov 2006, 07:27

Does anyone have any ideas what is going on at Scot Airways. The airline is operating 7 aircraft and only has 3 routes in its timetable.
3 aircraft needed for Edinburgh. One for Dundee. One for Amsterdam. One or two on charters. What's wrong with that ?

Scot have made a good niche in 30-seat charters (football teams etc), there are not that many operators in this category. In recent times I've noticed them in Dublin, Liverpool, and other places.

You can see a couple at London City midday but they are gone by the evening rush, plus it's a place they do their charters from. That's how the traffic on these routes is.

Nowheels

19th Nov 2006, 11:08

On any weekday morning at 8 o clock you will find 2 aircraft heading north to EDI. 3 aircraft heading south to LCY, One from DND and two from EDI and 1 heading to AMS. All very full with the possible exception of the AMS at the moment. Leaving 1 aircreft spare for backup, charters, maintenance or whatever.

Skipness One Echo

19th Nov 2006, 11:26

Be ready with your facts before you write a company off into insolvency.

Always busy morning and evening from LCY dues peak business periods. Usually one , max two aircraft parked during the mid day period when LCY is very quiet. NEVER seen four doing nought so I suspect two were on a long or tech delayed turnaround.

Not a loco by any means.

Meeb

19th Nov 2006, 13:27

Be ready with your facts before you write a company off into insolvency

eer, I never said anything about insolvency, you did. :bored:
I just pointed out what was in the newspaper, so its in the public domain that they owe a large sum of money.

Not a loco by any means.

What is that supposed to mean?:* There are other types of airlines other than "loco" you know....
And judging by your contributions to other threads (the yogi thread for example), I do not think you quite grasp the economics of the airline industry....:eek:

niknak

19th Nov 2006, 19:11

I don't know what they owe, or to who, but their aircraft are rarely on the ground long enough to refuel, never mind to get a bit of spit and polish.

A collegue who is closely aquainted to them tells me that they do have debt, but it's all within the terms of the business plan and they appear to be far more stable than some other operators.

One thing is for sure, the Suckling family are as equally canny as MR Souter, and if he wanted his money back from this deal outwith the agreed terms, he'd be the loser.

Skipness One Echo

20th Nov 2006, 09:27

And judging by your contributions to other threads (the yogi thread for example), I do not think you quite grasp the economics of the airline industry

I'm not a pilot. I'm a business analyst, so with respect I know a bit about what makes money and what doesn't. My point about them not being loco was quite simple to grasp. Because they charge high fares at business hours, they are not forced to operate to the maximum between the hours of 0600 and 0000, as the loco model insists upon. It is to be expected that the aircraft remain parked out of peak hours.
Feel free to read my comments on the Loganair thread again, I think they are an honest appraisal of the realistic market. But please please guys be aware that throwaway comments like " the writing is on the wall" can be dangerous for a trading company.

EI-BUD

21st Nov 2006, 04:34

RE: messages by Skipness One Echo

Firstly, I would like to say that I respect you being a business analyst. However, this does not make MEEBs comments incorrect re the strength of the Scot Airways , one does not need to be a genius to realise that an airline in todays trading environment with such a small network and with such competition eg at SOU & LCY, an airline could very well be considered to be in bad times.

The ownership of the airline has changed and since its not exactly a sought after company, one could be led to believe they are in trouble.

Furthermore , I realise as much as anyone that LCY is busier at peak times , nevertheless, simple economics would ask the question why are aircraft sitting on the ground doing nothing when they could be carrying passengers and earning revenue somewhere.

Skipness One Echo

21st Nov 2006, 08:12

That's simplistic economics, not simple economics. The aircraft is required for the peak periods to EDI and DND, that's where the yield is, there is no market from City for a one off route in the middle of the day to a business destination, therefore the aircraft is idle. The market requires routes to get you there and back on the same business day. Now if another rotation to EDI or DND is going empty, it makes more sense to park than to fly fresh air up and down the UK.

Done properly and factored into a business model this will still make you money if you've got your costs and fares pitched at the correct level. THAT is the point about a full service airline making money from it's assets at the right time of day. I don't have access to their financial accounts and yield management but often there is a good reason for what at first glance looks like a bad idea.
However with BAConnect saturating the main LCY-EDI route, they will either survive on loyalty of happy customers or blled of and be brought down by the mighty London Airways. Only time will tell on that one.

Anyway that's my tuppence worth.

WHBM

21st Nov 2006, 08:27

simple economics would ask the question why are aircraft sitting on the ground doing nothing when they could be carrying passengers and earning revenue somewhere.
A common fallacy. Aviation is not "simple economics" (ie economic concepts reduced to a couple of pages that students can regurgitate in economics exams). And actually nor are most other areas of commerce.

The vast majority of aviation costs are directly proportional to hours flown, probably to a greater extent than most other businesses. Fuel is obvious but even the way crews are paid by the flying hour rather than being fixed wages per week staff means their cost is again related to flying hours. Handling agents on the ground charge by the movement. Maintenance is again hours-proportional, even things like insurance are usage related, unlike what you do with car insurance. Unfortunately a fixation with aircraft utilisation does not give appropriate understanding of this.

So operators who adapt their usage to the market do not suffer a disadvantage. Of course the greatest proponents of this approach are the Titans and suchlike, standing by waiting for the charter call to come. They are commercially successful as well. For an operator like Scot I would say the variable costs are probably 90% of the total; for someone like BA they will be lower.

The time-based element of a Dornier 328's lease rate is low; the type is out of production and demand for it is thin. It's a nice aircraft for the money.

There is no point operating sectors where the revenue does not cover the operating costs. But there is a point having the resources ready to carry peak period loads at high fares.

And besides, I have always liked the shortbread tray Scot bring round .... :)

Cyrano

21st Nov 2006, 08:34

Furthermore , I realise as much as anyone that LCY is busier at peak times , nevertheless, simple economics would ask the question why are aircraft sitting on the ground doing nothing when they could be carrying passengers and earning revenue somewhere.

I have to agree with Skipness One Echo on this one. To answer your "simple economics" question: one very good reason an aircraft would be sitting on the ground in the middle of the day doing nothing would be if sending it somewhere couldn't earn enough revenue to cover the variable costs and make a contribution to fixed costs. A midday rotation is likely to generate lower revenue - most high-yield business passengers want to fly morning or evening.

And if you're flying a (relatively) old or relatively not-in-demand aircraft (and hence one with low lease or financing costs), you're not under such pressure to pay off fixed costs, so you can get away with lower utilisation. Eastern does this very well with their Jetstreams, several of which do a morning round-trip, an evening round-trip, and nothing in between. Result: good punctuality, and plenty of time for maintenance.

I have no access to ScotAirways' accounts so don't know how the operation is doing. But I certainly wouldn't conclude from low off-peak utilisation that they're doing something wrong.

C.

(oops, WHBM, you beat me to it!)

WHBM

21st Nov 2006, 09:03

Reason: overtaken by a faster typist!
This will make my secretary laugh !

PPRuNe Pop

21st Nov 2006, 11:16

Here we go again! Everyone knows how to run an airline and yet no-one does. Skip has come close - but as a business anylyst. The others who seem to 'know' are way off beam.

I can tell you, from experience, that aeroplanes are sometimes required to stay on the ground. That is the way it works. It all depends on the requirement.

Having said that, I will not allow anymore comments of a negative nature that are just wild guesses. Unless you are in the office you are NOT aware of the economics of, or the flying of, aircraft in any particular airline.

Stay on track or this thread goes.

PPP

EGCC4284

21st Nov 2006, 11:31

Saw the programme last night. Absolutely fabulous. If anyone know when it will be repeated, please let us all know so as I can watch it again.

AlanM

21st Nov 2006, 18:11

Away from the econo-babble, it was a good programme to watch.

You had to feel srry for Mr Boodray (or whatever the poor bugger was called!!) He seemed less than impressed at being told he was on his 100th flight with SA - and even less happy to stan on the wet Manc tarmac! Priceless!!

Just one question though - why renamed to ScotAir?? Was it just because they went into the EDI-LCY routes as their big thing??

paddyboy

21st Nov 2006, 20:01

Changed when Stagecoach invested £££.

WHBM

21st Nov 2006, 22:23

Changed when Stagecoach invested £££.
Actually it was a personal investment (recently resold back to Roy and Merlin Suckling) by Brian Souter, founder and chairman of Stagecoach, who lives near Dundee airport. It was not a Stagecoach corporate investment. A fine distinction but there it is.

In addition to owning the Southwest Trains routes out of Waterloo, which are branded under their own name, Stagecoach also own 50% of Virgin Trains, London to Scotland and thus BS was in competition with himself.

AlanM

22nd Nov 2006, 09:11

Thanks for that. I suppose both sets were happy - Suckling Callsign and SA logo retained.

They do seem to have a lot of Scottish crews as well.

chrism20

12th Dec 2006, 17:21

Anyone know how they are faring on this route now that they have competition from Flybe?

chrism20

17th Dec 2006, 22:52

Scotairways are advertising on their website SOU - AMS during Jan from £34 one way. I have checked their website this eve and the cheapest ticket I can find is £55 ex tax. The advert only appeared on their website a few days ago so either the seats haven't went on sale yet or they have all gone already?

Based on a journey from Southampton on the 17th January
Their £34 (if available)fare would come to approx £56.12 inc tax.
Flybe would come to £34.99 inc tax, a bag in the hold & a seat reservation

Also according to CAA stats for November the arrival of Flybe on the route has seen a massive increase in pax 9723 this year against 3580 last year.

Does anyone think Scot will hang around on this route or will they concede defeat to Flybe?

yieldwise Scotairways will always be better, but with hold baggage, online seat reservation fees and BOB catering they can't be that far behind. This must have been an extremely lucrative route in the past for Scotairways.

Yak97

10th Jun 2007, 09:34

I see that 3 of Scotairways Do 328's are up for sale (3022/23/88). How's that going to affect their operations? Is the 146 the way forward?

The Do328's must be a bit of problem now, didn't the company that was trying to support/produce them & the Jet version (Avjet?) go out of business? What's a Do328 (non-jet) worth these days??

I can see a big hole developing in the sub 48 seat market. AFAIK the smallest in-production turbo-prop is the ATR42. What's going to replace the fleets of SD3-60, SF340, J31/41, EMB120, B1900 etc in the future? The Twin Otter in just back in production!!

GBALU53

10th Jun 2007, 11:36

The Blueislands 328 are they leasing that one or are they going to purchase it could be a buyers markek fot them at the moment and you never know the way Blueislands is expanding or going to they could need a second one.
Interesting times ahead for these three that are for sale.

G-JECL

10th Jun 2007, 16:55

Two Dorniers would be ideal for BlueIslands, one to operate to the IOM and ZRH/GVA and a second one to operate to LCY, would make an ideal step to becoming a very popular business airline, who knows could be the new Eastern.

Jerbourg

10th Jun 2007, 18:02

The new Eastern?
I think not...:=

My ribs are cracking I am laughing so much....

wingman863

10th Jun 2007, 19:47

What would one of those things sell for?

chrism20

10th Jun 2007, 23:32

What affect is the sale going to have on the scheduled operation?

3 aircraft is a large percentage of the fleet?

Is BA squeezing them big time on the EDI/LCY route?
I imagine Flybe is probably hammering them on the SOU/AMS as well.

baggagebill

11th Jun 2007, 08:27

Interesting, so all not well at SA ? I know they are running the 146 again on the edi-lcy route. Had heard rumours a while back that they were looking to change a/c types.

BeeBopp

15th Jun 2007, 00:36

Suckling Airways trading as Scotairways do not own any aircraft therefore cannot sell them. Leasing companies often sell assests to other leasing companies with the aircraft remaining with the current lease holder as part of the deal. AFAIK all of Scots fleet have been "sold" at some point or other. The Do-328 is fully supported by 328 Support Services who are the current type cert holder. The type (prop) is in high demand and there are few decent examples available for lease or purchase. Scot will probably need more 328's not less from what I hear.

wantabe_crew

15th Jun 2007, 19:23

BeeBopp you sound to much like you work for scotairways with all that information? are you flight deck or just a paper pusher? in there head office?

so are they going to get more aircraft? are they getting bigger? where will 2007 take them??!!

can I come and fly for you??

virginblue

1st Aug 2007, 14:21

Scot will scrap SOU-AMS with effect August 10. Reason given in the Dutch media is competition by Flybe. Bookings have been cancelled, not rebooked.
Official PR:
Closure of Southampton - Amsterdam route
It is with regret that we announce, that after the 10th of August, ScotAirways will no longer be operating on the Southampton - Amsterdam route.
Any passengers booked to fly after this date are advised to contact our reservations department on 0870 60 60 707.
We would like to take this opportunity to thank all of our passengers who have flown to and from Southampton and Amsterdam with us over the last 9 years. It has been our pleasure and we shall miss you all.

So the Scot Airways network is now down to ten daily rotations on two routes..... Or rather nine, as the timetable shows a morning LCY-EDI-LCY rotation by an Avro RJ? I thought this sort of muscle play had been long scrapped - when did they start using Cityjet on the EDI route?
Even with the additional Air France business on LCY-BHD, hardly enough work for four aircraft, let alone six (I understand that the 7th has been leased out to bmi regional).

WHBM

1st Aug 2007, 15:19

I guess opportunities for Scot move on just like they do for everyone else. The key is to keep on top of things and strike after new business opportunities when you see them.

Scot have had two aircraft out on lease to other scheduled carriers, one to CityJet for LCY to Belfast, and one with BMI for a range of routes from Leeds. This sort of work keeps many another airline going as well, as Titan or Flightline will tell you. And they have never aimed to employ all their fleet on schedules as they pick up a lot of charter work as well, particularly high-end customers such as major football teams, for whom a 30-seater is ideal and there is not a lot of other capacity of this size around.

The Dornier is out of production now and given the number parked up round the world the lease rates for what is still a very capable and presentable aircraft must be low. The vast majority of the costs will be hours-related, it makes sense therefore to only fly hours which are adequately remunerative.

virginblue

1st Aug 2007, 16:02

Hmm, the only 328 props stored are US-certified examples. For reasons I do not remember, they require a rather expensive and time-consuming refit for operations in Europe. German Cirrus Airlines that wants to replace its Dash 8 fleet with further D328s consequently has found it quite difficult to source suitable aircraft. However, the reason why they have pursued with their plan is indeed the relatively low capital costs that come along with the Dornier 328.

If I have it correct, Scot has seven aircraft. Two are leased out. DND-LCY requires one aircraft, EDI-LCY 1,5-2 aircraft. SOU-AMS kept another one busy. So we more or less have now two instead of one aircraft permanently available for charters.

WHBM

1st Aug 2007, 16:15

The last data I have tells me there are 34 Do328 turboprops stored out of 111 built, in other words about a third of the production. Some of these have been stored for years and will possibly never fly again after only a couple of years use. Most are indeed in the US.

ExpectmorePayless

1st Aug 2007, 23:52

I'm surprised Scot Airways have never contemplated a LCY-ABZ service.
Twice daily morning and evening return would seem ideal for the D328.
And there is quite a lot of money in the oil industry.
For midday, does anybody operate LCY-GCI ?

virginblue

2nd Aug 2007, 00:44

No, nobody operates to GCI. I seem to remember that there have been rumours about Blue Islands looking into LCY-GCI, but I might be wring here.

As for ABZ-LCY, didn't Flybe operate to ABZ for a very short time in their British European period? I think City Star has been mentioned as the most likely operator for such a route. However, flights from ABZ to place like SVG and NWI are probably much more sought after than a service to LCY for which, I would guess, ABZ lacks sufficient demand.

Mister Geezer

2nd Aug 2007, 05:01

Scot Airways used to do ABZ-LCY and just like (when it was at the time) British European - it was a flop!

If BA Cityflyer did the route... it could well be different! There are lots of loyal BA customers on the ABZ-LHR route.

With slots being a premium at LCY... the regional jet will be the favourite versus a turboprop.

G-JECL

2nd Aug 2007, 14:07

There have indeed been many rumours floating around with regards to Blue Islands and Scotairways. There was and still are rumours doing the rounds that Blue Islands are to lease one of Scots Dorniers in order to operate their proposed Zurich service from the Channel Islands and to increase capacity on their IOM service. As for Blue Islands operating LCY from GCI that would be interesting, and im sure there would be more than enough demand to fill a twice daily service in a Dornier 328. LCY was one of many destinations that was suggested in the Blue Islands customer survey.

As for Scotairways and new routes, why do they not maybe expand and launch new routes out of Dundee or Edinburgh?? a 3-4 times weekly EDI-GCI service could work!

Jerbourg

2nd Aug 2007, 20:17

Why don't Scot Airways operate LCY-GCI?
Guernsey is desperate for new routes & operators.
The local business community are tired of queuing for hours at LGW and would easily swallow a high fare to LCY just for the convienience.
Scot management what are you waiting for? Do it NOW!

jewels crown

12th Aug 2007, 12:01

So are you guys pleased with the franchise deal with City Jet/Air France? Do you see them as you saviour? Are any of you going to start flying their jets? Has there been any job losses as I see they are taking over ticketing/marketing.I'll be sorry if there is, although I guess you wouldn't be sorry to lose that tubby marketing guy at cambridge who I once saw eating all your profits at the East Fortune Air Show.
JC

captainyonder

12th Aug 2007, 13:18

Does this mean all of Scot Airways' DO328s will now be wearing AF colours? Is it the end for the Scot Airways brand?

baggagebill

12th Aug 2007, 14:18

Scot-Airways Reservations at Dundee to close with the loss of 8 jobs. Was announced in local paper other day. All bookings will now be taken by Air France.

Not good news for Dundee or Scot-Airways.

With regards to aircraft, heard that SA will be using the RJ's to operate the edi-lcy route and the remaining d328's will be used on dnd-lcy and for charters ?

Would have thought the numbers on the dnd-lcy route would have made them look at using an rj on it ?

ADC2604

12th Aug 2007, 14:52

scratchingthesky and FlyerGuy (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=61229)

I don't think Flybe (or Flymaybe as so many weird people refer it to) can be blamed for Scot Airways inability to secure demand on a route they have been operating for so long.

If Scot Airways offerd such an excellent service then their client list should have remained...the fact that Flybe offered similar routes should not have deterred passengers if Scot Airways package was so superior. Don't forget that Blue Islands which also isn't the largest airline around is operating in direct competition with BE and seem to be doing ok at the moment.

Unfortunatley this is what the aviation industry is all about, I am surprised at the number of job losses because I would have just thought that the Board of Directors for Scot Airways would look at offering a different service rather than withdrawing all together leaving so many jobless. I do feel for those who now have to look elsewhere but as I say this is what happens in this industry.....I do wish all those staff members the best and I am sure that they will be snapped up by another company.

And also something tells me BE won't be going bankrupt tomorrow......if they do I will eat my own hat.....whilst searching for a new job.

Before anyone jumps back my throat.....I would like to remind them that this is a discussion forum and therefore we need to have two sides to each story taken into account.

virginblue

12th Aug 2007, 16:05

Will Scot Airways operate the Dorniers in Air France, Cityjet or its own colours?

ADC2604

12th Aug 2007, 17:24

Scatchingthesky,

Thank you

baggagebill

13th Aug 2007, 19:39

Following the closure of the Scot Airways Reservations at Dundee, i have heard a few rumours with regards to the airline.

D328 fleet due to go in for painting shorty, not sure what colour they will be coming out in ?

Also, rumours that City Jet/Air France to take over reservations offices at Dundee ?

What next ?

More routes ?

bhd-lonFLYer

14th Aug 2007, 13:09

Hopefully a second do328 on the belfast route!:)

Cyrano

30th Aug 2007, 15:50

Scot stays independent and wil be doing charter and wet-lease work in parallel to the Cityjet flying. Some of the Scot aircraft will be painted in Cityjet colours (first one was at LCY yesterday), others will stay in Scot colours (for charters etc).

The Scot cabin crew (at least on the Cityjet flights) will wear Cityjet uniform. Scot are providing ACMI services to Cityjet: Aircraft, Crew, Maintenance, Insurance - so this suggests that Scot will still be responsible for hiring their own crew.

The Cityjet deal is good news for Scot IMHO - they were reportedly finding it hard to compete with BA, flyBE etc and this now gives them some security, at the price of no longer doing scheduled operations in their own name.

Your friend at their SOU base was quite right that their SOU base wasn't going to last - but I notice that they are still looking for cabin crew on their website for their other operations.

airhumberside

21st Sep 2007, 18:21

Scot will take over the Strasbourg service for Cityjet/AF when it moves to LCY from Gatwick at the start of the winter schedule

Guern

21st Sep 2007, 20:00

Scotairways have been advertising for Guernsey Based Cabin Crew. Anyone know why as I don't know that they operate out of Guernsey.

Are they perhaps going to operate the Blueislands flights to Switzerland?

captainyonder

21st Sep 2007, 21:31

I'm pretty sure they're going to be operating for Blue Islands. BI only have a class B AOC at the moment so I think the new Swiss flights will be operated under the Scot AOC intially at least.

22/04

22nd Sep 2007, 08:55

Nice to see the Sucklings have found a new niche -true survivors

PPRuNeUser0178

22nd Sep 2007, 09:32

........but a shame that it looks like Scotland is loosing a regional job that gave many people, likemyself a step up into the airline world!

Vastly enjoyed my time there will be a shame too see the brand dissapear from EDI!

LB1985

23rd Sep 2007, 12:10

I've heard talk of Blue Islands from some Suckling crew too...

Blabbermouth

26th Sep 2007, 09:59

Maybe, Scot-Airways/Air France/City Jet or whatever they are called should start concentrating on what routes they have !! I just tried to book a flight next Monday to LCY from DND, told only one seat left and they quoted me over £300. I know my business pays, but come on, surely it is about time a larger a/c was put onto route ? Numbers are good and many a time it is either fully booked or close to full.

Dnd can take up to 146-300/rj-100 so plenty scope for more seats !!

WHBM

26th Sep 2007, 10:25

...next Monday to LCY from DND....... Numbers are good and many a time it is either fully booked or close to full.

My guess is that you are looking to come down on the first flight of the day. Especially on Mondays this may be full, the same is by no means true of the remaining flights of the day, and the overall average is less than you may believe. Going for a larger aircraft just to satisfy a few extra seat sales on a few flights of the day is not really the way to go.

chrism20

26th Sep 2007, 10:48

There were 4005 pax on the route last month, which equates an average of approx. 20 per flight. The 1st Monday and the last Friday are always popular however as said the others plod away.

PAPI-74

26th Sep 2007, 11:18

As was stated earlier, the Sucklings are fighters and will not go down unless kicking and screaming.
The AF deal is going to be a great new start, with interesting routes and challanges. Nice to see the back of that red tartan in the cabin too.
The future seems to be wet leases for start-up routes or existing routes where aircraft are tech / thin on the ground, and charters (ScotAirways).

WHBM

26th Sep 2007, 11:52

the Sucklings ..... will not go down unless kicking and screaming
Certainly true of one of them ..... :)

PAPI-74

26th Sep 2007, 12:02

Yes, the old fire breather is one to avoid if you can help it!!!!:ouch:

cavortingcheetah

27th Sep 2007, 05:07

:hmm:

Ah yes, the sound of a deranged Spitfire winding up on a foggy morning when airports are closed can be heard for miles and never fails to raise a smile.
It is high time that both Sucklings were nominated for an appropriate title in the honours list for services to aviation.:D

PAPI-74

27th Sep 2007, 08:04

LOL and LOL again!!!!:D:ok:
Being banned from every control tower in the UK has got my vote.

wantabe_crew

15th Nov 2007, 16:50

So who does really own Scot now?
Are they still in control?
I know when I was at SOU the crew started to say Merlin was the boss is that still the same?

Does anyone know what they are doing now with aircraft painted in any airlines colours?

Is there anyone from Scot who would like to have there say?

Or is this the end of Scot?

airhumberside

16th Nov 2007, 09:34

AFAIK Scot is still owned by the Sucklings. Just a change in direction from scheduled services/charters to Cityjet flying/charters

flying phil 2007

27th Nov 2007, 19:43

I saw this ScotAirways Dornier at LCY in a new colour scheme...
http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=6094287
It was operating the Dundee flight.

I assume this is the Blue Island scheme? Could not see any titles on the plane,
Getting a bit confusing.

Phil

WHBM

27th Nov 2007, 21:11

I'm sure Merlyn is still the boss, as ever. Isn't that right Roy ? :)

Scot are changing their livery. Most of the fleet seem to be going into the new CityJet colours, which themselves are a surprise as, unlike most commuter affiliates who like to don lookalike paint schemes of their major associate, CityJet have moved away from their Air France style colours, to just a single red stripe up the tail of an otherwise white aircraft, which has gone onto several of the Scot fleet.

However this new livery on BYHG, a longstanding member of the fleet, is different again, possibly for another contract. Looks like the rudder is still white. Scot said they would retain their livery on some of the fleet used for charters, which gives them a good proportion of their revenue, but this looks different again. Always inevitable that if you have different liveries for different purposes, things get mixed up.

shedrule

28th Nov 2007, 08:19

Wet lease to Blue Islands for their new Swiss services.

PAPI-74

28th Nov 2007, 09:06

Confusing...but very interesting for the pilots.

Cloud Chaser

30th Jan 2008, 14:51

All gone quiet here. Any news about the Scot/CityJet/VLM amalgamation: new aircraft or routes?

jarvis123

30th Jan 2008, 15:02

Might be an idea to keep an eye on this thread...

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=204666&page=18&highlight=dundee

:ok:

WHBM

30th Jan 2008, 16:17

In the current timetable Scot are down to operating just two round trips a day on the London City to Edinburgh route, their old key service, using one aircraft in the evening. All the rest of the operation to Edinburgh is now with Cityjet 146s themselves, with five round trips daily.

Scot have picked up the Cityjet Strasbourg route, as well as Belfast and Dundee, so they are in and out of The City through the day, but are changing emphasis. Good they are adapting to the market.

WHBM

30th Jan 2008, 18:02

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=310930

skiptoit

19th Jan 2009, 21:58

I see Scotairways have been put up for sale by Merlyn Suckling. Surely it's a prime opportunity for Blue Islands if they are looking to expand as rumoured? They already operate on of the Scot 328s out of SOU and JER to ZRH and GVA, it's the perfect step up for them, particularly if they are going to look at services to LCY or LGW as rumoured. I'm sure the 328s would be welcomed with open arms on the islands.

ChalfontFlyer

20th Jan 2009, 14:08

Skiptoit - Aware of the sale of 2 of their aircraft, details of which are in the public domain - please see answer to a question I gave a few days ago on the Dundee thread.

However, unaware that the company is also for sale.

Are you sure about this?

BISH-BASH-BOSH

20th Jan 2009, 19:17

The aircraft up for sale, are ML, and MK by their owner, Scotairways lease all the aircraft, what is your source for remainder of the company being up for sale?

BAladdy

28th Aug 2009, 11:56

Currently ScotAirways have six D328 aircraft in their fleet.

One aircraft (G-BYHG) operates on behalf of SI on their Channel Islands to Switzerland route.

Three aircraft are painted in WX livery (G-BWIR, G-BWWT & G-BYMK) and operate the two ex CB routes, now operated under the WX brand to EDI and DND.

The last two aircraft (G-BZOG & G-CCGS) are in CB livery and operate charter flights as well as flights on behalf of WX.

With this in mind I have a few questions.

Firstly now that WX have started to repaint VG's aircraft into WX colours and have closed some of VG's routes. Is there a future for CB when it comes to operating for WX? or will we see VG's F50's taking on the EDI and DND route.?

Also with SI recently adding a ATR42 to there fleet are the D328's days numbered in the SI fleet??

Finally if SI do return the aircraft they are using and WX decide that they no longer need CB, will CB be able to survive on charter work alone??

Jerbourg

29th Jan 2010, 12:43

I hear that Scot yesterday made quite a few flight & cabin crew redundant. With the ending of the Blue Islands contract in the spring & I think, the contract with Cityjet to end soon after there is obviously no work for them or their aircraft in the pipeline.

I wish those affected good luck for the future.

goldeneye

29th Jan 2010, 21:46

What will happen to the DND and EDI flights as im sure they are CB's and not Cityjet.

Flightrider

30th Jan 2010, 15:24

The Dundee and Edinburgh routes are being operated as an ACMI wet-lease for CityJet. Scot Airways sold all of its LCY slots to Air France about three years ago (for a tidy sum at the time) and a wet-lease contract was part of the deal.

Mrs Overall

18th Feb 2010, 15:30

Would Scot consider opening their own routes from LCY again?
The D328 would be an ideal aircraft to launch LCY- Guernsey. An offshore financial centre desperate for a link to the city. Blue Islands were awarded 2 slots a day for the route but never used them, perhaps someone else could take up the route..........

Aero Mad

5th Oct 2010, 16:45

Hi all, a thought crossed my mind today that with RUAG producing 228NGs, what are the chances of Scot taking any? Maybe nil, given that the 328 is bigger and possibly more economical but wondering what anyone else thought?

AM

BISH-BASH-BOSH

5th Oct 2010, 17:38

Not a cat in hells chance!

RooCat

5th Oct 2010, 18:02

I suppose that considering their largest base is in London City where maybe 60-70% of their operations are based and considering LCY's view towards accepting anything under 37 seats, the statement above seems quite apt.
But then again, they do charters with their spare aircraft and maybe 1 or 2 could be supportive.Who knows;)

justanotherstat

5th Oct 2010, 19:06

Won't be at LCY for much longer.......:ugh:

second coming

5th Oct 2010, 19:09

I didn't know they were still around. Nice little airline plus think 328 is a great aircraft. Can't see them growing though, think one of their founders died recently.

BISH-BASH-BOSH

5th Oct 2010, 19:17

Roy Suckling passed away a couple of years ago, company is now controlled by Merlyn Suckling. Company is now a full fledged ACMI operator, the LCY slots were sold about 3 years ago.

Skipness One Echo

6th Oct 2010, 09:11

Fairly sure they still fly LCY-EDI and LCY-DND under CityJet branding. Is that an ACMI? Thought it was a franchise.

globetrotter79

6th Oct 2010, 09:44

LCY-EDI and LCY-DND ops on Scot's D38 are both ACMI...and the deal comes to an end at the end of December this year, after which CityJet take over full operation of both routes with their own metal

clareview

6th Oct 2010, 18:22

I had missed the news about Roy Sucking passing away. I recall in the late 80's/early 90's a TV documentary about the creation of the then Suckling Airways which flew from Cambridge to Manchester and Amsterdam using a D228 (G-BMMR). In flight catering prepared by friends and neighbours literally on the kitchen table. I also recall seeing the D228 many times at Manchester. It is a type I have never flown on but would dearly like to.

Suckling/Scot seems to have favoured niche markets but moved on once the "big boys" move in - Southampton - Amsterdam and maybe CDG at one time. It also operated LCY-BHD for a while with D328 on behalf of Air France

virginblue

6th Oct 2010, 19:32

Hm, I guess that means a Cityjet/VLM Fokker 50 for DND-LCY. What is the load factor on the much smaller Dorniers?

WHBM

8th Oct 2010, 14:33

Whenever I have gone to Dundee there have been substantial loads (got overbooked once, when the Air France staff at LCY all suddenly became non-English speaking until the manager had to come out).

It will be a shame to see Scot go after all these years. They are well into corporate charters (not a lot the size of the Do328 on the market) for companies, football teams, etc, but the closure of LCY from Saturday to Sunday lunch squelches much weekend demand for the, especially from sporting teams who the aircraft is an ideal size for.

The story abot LCY not liking sub-50 seaters was a few years ago, more passengers and less stand space then. In the last year or two they seem to have lost more operations than they have gained, so maybe a different attitude prevails now.

PAPI-74

8th Oct 2010, 14:54

The demand isn't there for anything bigger - just watch!

BAladdy

8th Oct 2010, 22:33

LCY-EDI and LCY-DND ops on Scot's D38 are both ACMI...and the deal comes to an end at the end of December this year, after which CityJet take over full operation of both routes with their own metal

I thought the rights/slots for the route to DND and EDI belonged to Scot Airways?. Does anyone know if CB's crews are all based in EDI or is there a small base in DND?.

For many years and until about a year ago, I travelled on a fortnightly basis from LCY-EDI using AF/WX's flights. From my experience the flights operated by the D328's where much more reliable, punctual and comfortable, not to mention offered a far more personal and friendly service compared to those flights operated using WX's cramped RJ85's.

It will be a shame to see Scot go after all these years. They are well into c'rporate charters (not a lot the size of the Do328 on the market) for companies, football teams, etc, but the closure of LCY from Saturday to Sunday lunch squelches much weekend demand for the, especially from sporting teams who the aircraft is an ideal size for.

Is there enough work out there for Scot Airways to run a profitable operation once the Cityjet flights to DND and EDI are taken over by the WX F50's??.

WHBM

9th Oct 2010, 06:56

Is there enough work out there for Scot Airways to run a profitable operation once the Cityjet flights to DND and EDI are taken over by the WX F50's??.
Dundee is one thing, they are the only operator to the city. But if Cityjet think that they can use F50s to Edinburgh and be competitive with BA's Embraers, they have got another think coming.

Scot managed to do well with the Dornier because it really seems like an executive aircraft (and Scot still provide a cabin service to suit, whatever the Cityjet corporate manual says). They are also speedy for a prop aircraft, and they feel modern. In contrast the F50 feels like a basic old plodder (which is of course what it is, a 1950s F27 with different engines). The F50 had to come off the Amsterdam route in similar circumstances once BA started serving there.

BISH-BASH-BOSH

9th Oct 2010, 08:57

BAladdy, crews are based in both EDI and DND, as well as LCY

justanotherstat

9th Oct 2010, 17:43

The F50 will never compete with the Ejet on the Edinburgh, so we wait to see what they do there. For now 2 D328 will operate EDI-LCY until dec 31st when the contract expires. As for DND its going to be a Fokker exclusively from dec 31st and mixture of F50 and D328 until then - Just wait for the schedule for winter - this route is being ruined by cityjet...... No peak time morning arrivals which is handy:ugh:

We don't own the slots anymore either, to answer a previous question.
And as for surviving without the WX work, we'll see......:sad:

WHBM

9th Oct 2010, 19:47

this route is being ruined by cityjet...... No peak time morning arrivals which is handy
Par for the course, like no end-of-day arrival into London City from Amsterdam nowadays, which eliminates a whole raft of potential convenient connections on KLM routes, and thus loses the whole round trip, including the longer haul, to the likes of Swiss, who do seem able to arrange this.

fudpucker

13th Oct 2010, 04:32

Sorry to hear about Roy. I quite enjoyed my time with Suckling Airways, as was. he must have been quite young?

bad bear

13th Oct 2010, 06:06

Is this all speculation or has there been an announcement about the F50 taking over the Dundee route? Will the Dundee route survive at 4 X daily or will they cut rotations to maintain load factor? Are the operating cost much higher on the F50? Is the F50 a good plane for Dundee's runway and ramp?
bb

WHBM

13th Oct 2010, 06:53

Is the F50 a good plane for Dundee's runway and ramp?
F50 has operated into there before; VLM did a series for at least one summer from Jersey to Dundee and back. Now that must have been a long slow drag. But is putting these on the LCY run really the most efficient way for Cityjet ?

Incidentally, did I just notice a Scot aircraft at London City with an Aer Arann logo on the rear ? Have they got some work elsewhere ?

BISH-BASH-BOSH

13th Oct 2010, 16:35

Bad Bear, no speculation involved, been announced to staff that CJ contract ends dec 31st, when citijet will take over EDI/DND with their own equipment.
WHBM G-CCGS is operating for Aer Arron on the IOM run.

virginblue

13th Oct 2010, 19:15

BAladdy

13th Oct 2010, 19:20

How much longer will the Fokker 50 need on the DND-LCY route? The Dornier 328 is one quick turboprop, whereas the Fokker 50 is rather slow beast - top speed is more than 100mph less than on the Dornier.

There is about 20 more seats on the F50 compared to the D328. Even by cutting frequency to 3 daily there will still be about 20-30 more seats than at present. Is there demand to fill these seats??

goldeneye

13th Oct 2010, 19:23

I wonder if Cityjet/AF are going to contract BE/Loganair to operate the DND-LCY flight as i really think they will struggle to fill the F50.

virginblue

13th Oct 2010, 19:29

There is about 20 more seats on the F50 compared to the D328. Even by cutting frequency to 3 daily there will still be about 20-30 more seats than at present. Is there demand to fill these seats??

This has been discussed a couple of days ago - see posts 109 et al. In short, different views on the issue.

So, how about the speed - any guestimates how much longer the journey will take on the Fokker?

BAladdy

13th Oct 2010, 19:37

I wonder if Cityjet/AF are going to contrat BE/Loganair to operate the DND-LCY flight as i really think they will struggle to fill the F50.Now a SF3 would make more sense. However not sure if BE/LC have a spare SF3 to operate the service.

When it comes to EDI-LCY does anyone know if the flights are to be all operated by a RJ85 for 31st December?.

Have heard also that G-BYMK which is in Cityjet livery is now parked at DND, Anyone able to confirm?.

So, how about the speed - any guestimates how much longer the journey will take on the Fokker?LCY-DND - As much as 20 mins longer on F50
LCY-EDI - About 10 - 15 mins longer

virginblue

13th Oct 2010, 20:10

Jets on LCY-EDI are apparently scheduled at 1h20min and the Dornier 328 on LCY-DND mostly at 1h35min or 1h40min. With a Fokker 50 on DND-LCY, we would be looking at up to 2h block-time. 40 minutes time difference is about half the driving time from Dundee to EDI (although of course parking/checking in at EDI will not be as quick as at DND)

bad bear

28th Oct 2010, 01:44

LCY-DND - To drop to 2 x Daily, from Air France Announce Plans for 2010/11 (http://www.skyclub.com/news/2010/10/25/air-france-announce-plans-for-201011/)

not good

bb

virginblue

19th Jan 2011, 19:04

Rumour making rounds in Germany that Scot is looking at setting up shop at MHG where Cirrus recently pulled the MHG-HAM route. The airport can only take D328 and smaller hardware, so Scot is one of the few airlines who could actually operate schedules from there. Has anyone heard this rumour at the other end as well? I must stress it is only a rumour at this point, so it might also be total nonsense.

As we are just at it, Cirrus will also pull the PSO from nearby FRA to HOQ operated with a Dornier 328 at the end of March.

Herschel Krustofski

9th May 2011, 19:46

In case you missed it (many people think they went out of business years ago) Scotairways has just passed its 25th anniversary.

Fairly remarkable!

www.aerbt.co.uk/article/3375 (http://www.aerbt.co.uk/article/3375)

WHBM

10th May 2011, 20:50

Scot seem to have quite a bit of subcharter work on at the moment. Am I correct that they have one aircraft with Blue Islands and two with Aer Arann at the moment ? They seem to still be in and out of London City quite regularly; a good sized aircraft for high fuel cost days ?

BISH-BASH-BOSH

8th Jul 2011, 16:13

For release: Friday 8th July 2011

SCOTLAND’S AIRLINE ACQUIRES UK CHARTER SPECIALIST SUCKLING AIRWAYS

Loganair, Scotland’s Airline, has today announced that it is to acquire Suckling Airways, the Cambridge-based charter specialist.

Suckling is to become a wholly-owned subsidiary of Loganair upon completion of the deal at the end of this month, and will continue to trade as a separate airline which holds its own licences and approvals. It operates a fleet of five Dornier 328-100 fast turboprop aircraft on ad-hoc and contract charter flights, servicing an extensive customer base which includes high profile sports teams, political parties, blue-chip corporate clients and other airlines. The aircraft seat 31 or 32 passengers and can fly throughout Europe.

Suckling is also one of a limited number of airlines able to offer ad-hoc charter services to and from specialist airports such as London City. Until 2007, Suckling operated scheduled services from Dundee and from Edinburgh to London City trading as Scot Airways. The company has operating and engineering bases at Cambridge, Dundee and London City, employing a total of 60 staff. No job losses are anticipated, although the two organisations will immediately commence working together to identify synergies and cost savings through joint purchasing of items such as fuel, insurance and ground handling.

Commenting on the acquisition, Loganair’s Chairman Scott Grier OBE said:

“The acquisition of Suckling Airways is a major change for Loganair, but one which reflects our increasing ambition to diversify and expand our business. Today’s announcement brings a new, yet mature revenue stream from specialist charter flights into the Company. We look forward to working with Mrs Merlyn Suckling and her team to develop its exciting business over the coming months and years whilst we continue to grow Loganair’s own operations as and when opportunities arise.”

Glasgow-based Loganair was founded in 1962 and now operates a fleet of 20 aircraft and employs 440 staff throughout Scotland to deliver a network of scheduled and charter services. It operates its scheduled flights under its franchise agreement with Flybe, Europe’s largest regional airline, and has a codeshare agreement with British Airways to facilitate connections from the Highlands and Islands to London and beyond. It also undertakes charter services for a variety of clients in the oil and gas industry and sports teams, and provides contract cargo services for clients including Royal Mail and newspaper distribution groups. The company will continue to offer charter capacity using Saab 340 aircraft to serve both customer and geographical bases which complement those of Suckling Airways.

Loganair is delighted that Merlyn Suckling, Suckling Airways’ co-founder and Managing Director, has agreed to remain with the company until the end of the year. Chairman Scott Grier said:

“I would like to take the opportunity to recognise and applaud the tremendous efforts which Merlyn, who founded the airline in 1986 with her late husband Roy, has made over the last 25 years to safely and successfully manage the company. Dozens of other UK airlines have come and gone in that time, and the fact that Suckling Airways has survived and prospered is a credit to Merlyn’s hard work and tenacity. I very much hope that the future progress of the airline under Loganair’s ownership will both do justice to her efforts and maintain the respect which Suckling Airways enjoys from its many loyal customers.”

Merlyn Suckling said:

“I am absolutely delighted that the airline Roy and I founded in 1986 is to move to a new chapter of its development under the wing of Scotland’s Airline, Loganair.

“Next year, Loganair will celebrate 50 years of airline operations, which is a truly magnificent record of service. As a UK regional operator, we have enjoyed working alongside Loganair for many years, and we know we share the same ethos for providing an excellent customer experience. We are looking forward to joining them in this new venture.”

ENDS