Experimental - N Reg Vs G Reg

[Toohey29]

Gentlemen ....and ladies

I am currently in the USA and planning to return to the UK in the summer of 2007. I am considering purchasing an aircraft on my return, now i'm not loaded so am trying to be as cost effective as possible.
Looking around out here there are quite a few Glasairs, Vans and Lancairs etc for "reasonable" money all with lots of toys onboard and a fair turn of speed about them, my questions are as follows:

If i was to bring one of the above back:

1) would you leave it on an N reg or convert it to G reg, assuming that the N reg route has not been terminated in my absence.

2)can it be flown in IMC with the appropriate rating.... for example if flown on an n reg will an FAA IR be ok in the UK. Am i right in thinking that on a G Reg a JAA IR will not allow you to fly an experimental/kit in IMC?

i have searched through the threads on this forum, but can't find any info on this ....either that or i'm not getting the search correct!:uhoh:

If it isn't possible to bring one home what are peoples opinion on the best bird for the job to fill the following criteria...

longish legs....Scotland to the south coast in one hop
speed ....fast enough to allow the one hop north to south without crippling the pilot due to the call of nature....150kts +
Ability to land on a grass strip a must.

your knowledge will be gratefully recieved

regards toohey

[tangovictor]

Im pretty sure I read that, any experimental build yourself aircraft, that have not been built in the UK, with a PFA / BMAA inspector, regulating the build, is a no no, try searching the PFA site, I think I recall them saying they would want to strip and inspect virtually everything
tv

[Zulu Alpha]

My understanding is that you cannot operate an N reg homebuilt in the UK. It has to be converted to a G reg. The only N reg you can operate over here is a certified aircraft.

To convert an N reg homebuilt to a G reg you have to satisfy the PFA that it has been built to G reg standards. There are two aspects to this

1 It must be a design that is approved by the PFA and must include all the mods that the PFA requires over here.

2 You must be able to prove that it has been built to the standards required in the UK ie the workmanship is up to std. Often this requires stripping down to inspect internal structures.

There are many US homebuilts flying in the UK, particularly Pitts S1's, so its not impossible to bring them over here. Aircraft like Pitts S1's can be inspected for build standard as it is possible to look under the fabric covering. RV's and composite aircraft may be more difficult to inspect as often structures are sealed up and cannot be viewed.

The PFA are the best source of information and there is a lot of helpful info on their website.

One further thing is that IFR in homebuilts is not permitted in the UK. There is work underfoot to change this but no timescales as yet.

[skydriller]

My understanding is that you cannot operate an N reg homebuilt in the UK. It has to be converted to a G reg. The only N reg you can operate over here is a certified aircraft....
One further thing is that IFR in homebuilts is not permitted in the UK. There is work underfoot to change this but no timescales as yet....

I know of 2 N-registered homebuilts flying here in France, and Im pretty sure I saw one of them had all the IFR gear in it, though not sure if he uses it as such.......Why would operating an N-Reg Experimental here be any different to operating a regular N-Reg aeroplane here, it would be under FAA regulation wouldnt it?

Regards, SD..

[slim_slag]

An N-reg Experiemental doesn't have ICAO documentation so cannot automatically be accepted in other jurisdictions.

[IO540]

My understanding, from some American exp owners, is that the acceptance route is much easier in certain EU countries, and Spain has been mentioned. Then, flying it around the UK would be a lot easier.

Sadly I have no reference for this. It's one of those quirks which - if they exist - people make use of and don't publicise.

[gasax]

Nice try IO but unfortunately the CAA beat you to it. All non- G-reg homebuilt or experimentals are subject to the same rules - there is no different between N and EASA regs, written permission is needed to operate in the UK and I think a maximum period of 30 or 60 days.

Again it comes down to them presently being outside both the ICAO and EASA arrangements (as Annex II aircraft) subject to national rules.

[Toohey29]

Ok so that looks like a non starter at the moment..:ugh: ..so what do you guys suggest as an alternative given the requirments i stated above.

Also what is the story with regards to an IMC rating as apposed to an IR?

[IO540]

Yes but an EU reg exp plane is more likely to get the permission than a US reg one.

Most people in the CAA will automatically regard anything exp from the USA as something out of Mad Max (and in some cases they would be right).

[slim_slag]

What I would suggest, Toohey, is get your IR over in the States (if you don't already have it) and then come back to the UK and chill out for a bit. Find out about the scene over here and decide what you want to do then.

[Flyin'Dutch']

Sound advice

[Toohey29]

Ta for the help lads ...looks like a non starter then ....shall take your advice and chill..:cool:
whats good and quick and cheap....if there is such a thing on the normal register?

[tangovictor]

I found the PFA pdf doc, re importing aircraft, If you like I can email it to you ?
not sure how to post it here ?
TV

[gasax]

As far as I know the CAA do not discriminate between permissions for N or EU reg homebuilts, however given the short period they are permitted to stay it is a bit academic.

The advice of waiting until you get here to see it that is still what you want is pretty good. I'm just back from Canada the the different in predictability of the weather and the areas it covers is pretty stunning. When I described flying 50 miles and being subject to totally different conditions they thought I was joking. Equally when they said 'the ceiling should be fine at about 1400 hrs and then be go for x days' - and it was - I was staggered. Oh that the British Isles would be like that.....

[Mark 1]

Foreign registered, amateur built aircraft are allowed in the UK under the terms of AWN52 (airworthiness notices online at CAA site). This is for a limited period and subject to day/vfr limitations.

Quite a few are imported and run under the PFA auspices. I have been down this route with an RV. If you like, I can send you a copy of my inspection report, which would give you an idea of the depth of the requirement. It seems to typically take about 6 months to jump through all the hoops. Registering in another European country doesn't work really, unless you are mainly based in that country, assuming that you want to stay legal.

The PFA will require verification that it conforms with the plans and any SBs or MPDs that they require. It's best to determine the build standard before you import, as rectification could make it a non-starter.

The types that you mention are all good designs, and if they are well-built and not significantly "customized" shouldn't be too difficult to import. I'd certainly recommend the RVs for all round quality, performance and handling.

[Baron Von Mildred]

Another line to take would be to look at what is now available in UK. There are some serious ranged aircraft on the market now utilising the Rotax 912 engine giving cruise speeds from 85 - 150kt on around 12 litres/hour Mogas. Some worth looking at are Ikarus c42 (kit or factory), Dynamic (factory), Dyne Aero Banbi kit (also 4 seater now available) AT3 (factory full Cof A not permit)
Of these the Banbi & dynamic are the fastest.

[Pilotage]

Although the Dynamic is some way from UK approval yet.

Also consider the CT, Europa, Eurostar, Jabiru (2 and 4-seat variants), Glastar, most of the Vans range are available G-reg.

Incidentally, no you cannot fly any amateur-built aeroplane, legally in IMC in UK airspace.

[Baron Von Mildred]

Actually the dynamic is very close to UK approval. We were expecting to have one tomorrow, but it has been delayed slightly. Should still be available this year though.

[tangovictor]

Another line to take would be to look at what is now available in UK. There are some serious ranged aircraft on the market now utilising the Rotax 912 engine giving cruise speeds from 85 - 150kt on around 12 litres/hour Mogas. Some worth looking at are Ikarus c42 (kit or factory), Dynamic (factory), Dyne Aero Banbi kit (also 4 seater now available) AT3 (factory full Cof A not permit)
Of these the Banbi & dynamic are the fastest.

and the beauty of most of these great ships, is, can be flown on nppl m
nppl for the AT3