QANTAS - Australia [Archive]

TightSlot

14th Sep 2006, 09:26

Welcome Back!

:hmm:

For internal PPRuNe political reasons, you've been moved back in here whilst various decisions about the future structure of PPRuNe are taken.
I'll start by drawing to your attention to the moderating philosophy of this forum, which may be found HERE (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1585962#post1585962). We intend to police this philosophy aggressively, concentrating on this thread given the unfortunate history of these discussion in both the CC and D&G forums.

I would also like to offer some further guidance: This forum is intended to relate to discussions about the role and function of Cabin Crew. There is no doubt that Australian politics and union activities form an important background to your working lives, but the discussion of these subjects is not part of the remit of this forum. There are a variety of venues where you are free to establish discussions on these subjects, including MSN, MySpace and Yahoo! Groups - This forum is not one of them.

Finally, please note our views on abuse. For example, the above discussion on calling your UK colleagues "Chavs" may be at the cutting edge of Australian wit, but in truth, it does not advance your position one bit, and the intent behind the use of the word is to cause distress and to disparage. It is childish, and detracts from whatever position you may be taking.

Because of the history of QANTAS discussions in this forum, and elsewhere, I regard contributors as being on a final warning. No further notice or tolerance will be given, and those contravening PPRuNe rules and forum policy will be permanently banned: Offending posts will be deleted.

For the forum mods, this is a busy flying summer, and we just don't have the time or energy to p*ss about with delinquents: Wed Webbing Woop has already left us - please try and make him/her the last...

Thanks in anticipation.

GalleyChick

14th Sep 2006, 09:43

Tightslot

Thankyou for taking the time to put up the rules and intentions of this thread. I'm aussie but find the abuse intolerable. In response to someone's 'chavs' talk about the UK crew, I put up here the real meaning of 'chavs' so that it would be clear to everyone why it's not nice to label people when misinformed. And thanks for moderating and being fair.

twiggs

14th Sep 2006, 09:58

Anyone else hear a whisper about a return to Paris next year?

speedbirdhouse

14th Sep 2006, 10:46

The excuse used for pulling out was that we didn't have the rights to operate daily and as such it was uneconomic.

Lobbying has been done but even if it is now possible I don't believe we have the hardware :ugh:

Jetscar maybe??

sydney s/h

14th Sep 2006, 11:38

Jetstar to Paris?? .... bloody hell.

So in SH Sydney land our Base Manager is gooooone. To take up a position in Safety.
Shame - she was bloody good.

The "visitors" survived.

qcc2

14th Sep 2006, 23:19

as mentioned qf has not been able to negotiate daily services to paris. unless this changes and we can find some more aircrafts in Q, i recon J* may be the candidate.
looks like the A380 is even furthere delayed, as rumors get stronger that some of the A380 will go to J*.imagine 650 seats +. good luck.
Mel BM Sue & BNE BM Elliott have taken VR, mel CCM Andrew is taken up position as BM brisbane. Samantha is new BM in MEL.
QF wants to remove codeshare between BA/QF on the Fra services. another port gone down the track to J*. :{

qcc2

15th Sep 2006, 04:23

Gd mentioned the J* Int. model is new has never been tried and lets hope for the best. can't really fail ,as there is plenty of money/resources diverted from Qf. He'll support it whatever the costs ( a bit like J*Asia).:(

qcc2

15th Sep 2006, 04:44

go and book J* online from syd to hnl Feb 07
(incl. food/blanket/video) A$ 1384.-
go and book on the QF website on QF (one sector operated by J*) and pay A$ 1088.-
interesting yield management????????????.:*

sydney s/h

15th Sep 2006, 05:25

Good research QCC2. Very interesting.

The problem is the punters perceive Jetstar to be cheaper and unfortunately alot of them wont do their homework and compare fares.

I have often randomly checked QF v's Virgin on a SYD-MEL flight and we (QF) are often cheaper. If you were to ask the average joe public who is cheaper hands down they would say Virgin.

Its all how we are perceived in the market place. Shame really.

lowerlobe

15th Sep 2006, 08:57

qcc2,

Good point and yes it is an interesting business plan by old GD.Get the customer to pay more and give them less.

I suppose that is an extension of paying employees less and ask them to work more.

The next 12 to 18 months or so will certainly be interesting and and a lot of spectators will be watching to see how J* international does .

It is not a foregone conclusion as it's older brother J* Asia has not covered itself in glory by any means.

Does anyone know if J* has any plans for IFE or something similar.Maybe they will hire out ipods.

twiggs

15th Sep 2006, 09:06

Does anyone know if J* has any plans for IFE or something similar.Maybe they will hire out ipods.

VOD is available for purchase

twiggs

15th Sep 2006, 09:58

Be interested to see what on basis he appeals this one.
http://www.airc.gov.au/decisionssigned/html/PR974069.htm

cartexchange

15th Sep 2006, 11:18

thanks for the information
How come this guy still shows up on the CIS screens, I thought if you have been terminated your name come off the CIS system.

cartexchange

15th Sep 2006, 11:19

also was there any culling in the office today.
does anyone know what the full restructure is!:ouch: :ouch: :ouch:

sydney s/h

15th Sep 2006, 11:49

Leane7,

We do not have those mini TV things that they have on domestic at the moment on any domestic flights.

If its not on the big screen or on the IFE for 767-300's then they dont see it.

Randomly we have a A330-300 on a PER sector.

Or are you refering to Jetstar? Am i getting confused?

Pegasus747

15th Sep 2006, 12:07

Hey Twiggs

My reading of the decision is that it actually in favour of the captain and that the commission has rejected the arguments of the respondent (qantas)

twiggs

15th Sep 2006, 12:17

Yes Pegasus747,
but that is not an the appeal against dismissal, Qantas was arguing that he could not appeal at all because of the time lapse supposedly.
This is just a decision allowing him to appeal.

I have just re-read it for the 3rd time and you are right Pegasus747, it does seem that it was also a decision giving him his job back.
That would explain why his name is on the CIS screen, Cartexchange.

cartexchange

15th Sep 2006, 13:09

bummer.........surely they cant give him his job back.............but then it does appear on the CIS..........there simply is no justice and I notice that the appeal was funded by AIPA:mad: :mad: :mad:

lowerlobe

15th Sep 2006, 22:48

Even with the support of AIPA,it will be interesting to see on what grounds Capt M is claiming his dismissal is harsh and unfair. Claiming that he was not outside the allowable time limit to appeal is one thing but how does he explain his actions in NRT and more importantly how does AIPA condone and explain that sort of behaviour from a capt.I wonder what the result would be if the situation had been reversed and he had been the recipient of those actions and behaviour.

On another note after flying more than a few times on J* ,it would be interesting to fly as cabin crew on J* international.The meal service will probably take about 15 minutes as most will bring their own food not to mention DVD players,reading material ,blanket and pillow.You would have a lot of time on your hands and I wonder if there will be any crew rest seats?

I also like the note on the CIS screens about the persona non grata who have taken VR and have had their access to stafftravel removed while the data base is updated.If you have dared to apply for VR (which is helping the company) then you will be treated accordingly.

twiggs

15th Sep 2006, 23:16

It's a shame the facts of the incident and relevant basis of appeal were not shown here as they were in another ex-colleague's rejected appeal (twice)
http://www.airc.gov.au/decisionssigned/html/PR971685.htm
Maybe AF could use this captains case to try again with a 3rd appeal.

lowerlobe

16th Sep 2006, 03:59

Either way it will be interesting to see how their flights go.Does anyone know what their J/C....full service Y/C is going to be based on and how much of a difference there wil be in cost?

qcc2

16th Sep 2006, 10:08

that even GD must approve of J* thrashing QF yield like on the HNL service, and then decide we cant make enough money so QF looses another port.:ugh:

sydney s/h

16th Sep 2006, 12:15

Hey Leane7,
You tell me that I should remember that your a QF FA. I have no idea who you are! :confused:

peanut pusher

16th Sep 2006, 15:30

In the last 18 months there has been minimal problems in slip ports with LHR crew.

1 arrest for stealing that was latter dropped.

In that time there has been 2 crew arrested for drug smuggling, 2 crew dismissed for stealing, assualts and the list goes on for minor charges out of Aus.

Please don't throw stones when you live in a very brittle glass house.

Not to mention the new BKK crew hotel are not happy with the amount of prostitues being brought back by tech and c/crew.

Lets keep the forum open for facts only style debates:D

lowerlobe

16th Sep 2006, 23:14

resboy

17th Sep 2006, 01:38

Interesting letter to the media regarding J*....

"Jetstar Airways - by **************
13 December 2005

Cairns - Sydney. I've grumbled about Jetstar before, but this time I really was left totally unimpressed. I've flown Qantas for over 25 years, so perhaps I'm spoilt, but this new Jetstar thing just doesn't sit right with me. I watched two checkin clerks treat every passenger, and then me, with utter contempt. The underlying message: "If you're so tight-ar$ed to fly Jetstar, then what do you expect?" First time in over thirty years of flying I was charged for excess baggage. "You're x-kilos overweight. That'll be thirty-five dollars. How would you like to pay for that, sir?" Stony-faced (thing) stares me out. "Will cash be okay?" I respond after a suitably uncomfortable pause. Even though I am in the first dozen checked passengers, I still get the second stampede. Flight is packed, but still doesn't stop hosties having a sit-down and chit chat. When I say it's like flying Franklins, Aussies will know what I mean (!) Had to laugh when I heard Mr Dixon proudly announce this "airline model" is ready for the international market."

I would like to see Darths reaction to reading that.As with most crew who have been flying a considerable time ,we understand it is not what you do but how you do it .Excess baggage has always been a problem but the airlines have always sucked up to frequent flyers but now with LCC you pay for what you want.

I think this Jet* bashing could continue forever (note letter is almost 10 months old). Its getting a little tiresome.

On the route in question Qantas mainline still operates 3+ services a day. The passenger does not have to fly Jet* if they want the extra frills (preferential seating, extended baggage allowance etc) that were gripes in the above letter.

Totally agree with lowerlobe's comments in respect to difficult situations, its not what you say its how you say it. However all airlines have been cracking down on excess including QF, upon the realisation of extra cash to be earnt. Excess baggage is certainly not exclusive to LCCs. QF have cracked down heavily in the last year or so and some flights are even audited to ensure agents are charging for every kilo. Interestingly Aer Lingus in Ireland are now charging for all checked baggage regardless of weight or number of pieces...you check it in you pay. Don't want to pay? Carry it on. Creates a whole host of problems for cabin crew with oversize and overweight bags.

Furthermore, "contempt" at check in is certainly not the realm of LCCs either. Airports are now a cost centre and must turn a profit. In light of this, the check-in process is more of a production line rather than a customer service function. Jetstar do an entire flight on only 2 agents and QF and DJ are heavily focussed on pax using Kiosk and Web based check-in. Aside from the expectation the QF pax now check on a machine or on the web (just anywhere but a counter), it is expected that QF check in staff offer no extra servicing (seat changes, adding in FF numbers etc...) or assistance to the pax and have the check in transaction complete in under 40 seconds. Hard to keep smiling all day when all you say is no. Sorry you have excess baggage...sorry you've missed the 30min bag cut off...sorry I can't change your seat, see the staff at the gate...sorry the self check system is meant faster, but yes you do have to queue for 10mins to check-in your bag as there is only one agent on this morning...sorry I can't add your Qantas Club number...sorry you were meant to check in on the Kiosk, please re join the queue when you have...sorry...:ugh:

Anyway ... back to the topic now ...

cart_elevator

17th Sep 2006, 03:01

From the Australian:
Kiwi bill will cut jobs, safety: unions
Steve Creedy, Aviation writer
September 15, 2006
UNIONS are worried that legislation passed this week in federal Parliament will lead to fewer cabin crew on planes, jobs moving to New Zealand, and a fall in safety standards.
They have accused the Howard Government of hypocrisy by using the September 11 anniversary to pass "mutual recognition" legislation that allows New Zealand and Australian aircraft to fly in each other's skies.
The unions fear the new laws will prompt airlines to take advantage of cheaper labour costs by basing operations in New Zealand, a fear echoed last year by a legislative committee that recommended passing the legislation.
Mutual recognition allows airline operators to use their aircraft in Australia and New Zealand without the need to be issued with an air operators certificate in both countries.
Instead, they will be issued with a single certificate that will allow them to fly in either jurisdiction.
The Government says the move will cut red tape and deliver savings to airlines by removing regulatory hurdles. But the Australian and International Pilots Association warned that the decision would create a commercial imperative to drive safety standards down.
"The federal Government is setting off down the path of abandoning Australia's world-best safety regime and allowing the importation of lower international standards," said AIPA general manager Peter Somerville.
Flight attendants expressed concern the new regime would give Australian carriers ammunition to renew a push for new limits that allow fewer flight attendants.
Australia requires one flight attendant for every 36 passengers but New Zealand endorses an international standard of one for every 50 passengers.
The Flight Attendants Association of Australia says introducing the New Zealand ratio here would allow airlines to reduce the cabin crew in a Dash-8 commuter plane from two to one and on some Boeing 737s from four to three.
FAAA domestic division secretary Daryl Watkins said Australia had the best safety record in the world, and standards should not be reduced.
Mr Watkins said cabin-crew-to-passenger ratios were critical in emergency situations, fire-fighting, security, and dealing with disruptive passengers.
"You see all these shows on TV about enhancing security and September 11, and here they are - they've put it through parliament, potentially threatening our safety and security," he said.
But Transport Minister Warren Truss said Australia and New Zealand had robust aviation safety systems.
"While there may be some differences in detail, the safety standards in Australia and New Zealand are compliant with international requirements and achieve the same safety outcome," Mr Truss said. "Measures have been built into this bill to ensure safety is maintained at the current high levels."
The bill allows the regulator that is best placed to effectively monitor the activities of an operator, to oversee the safety of airlines operating with an Australia-New Zealand certificate.
This means an airline based in New Zealand but operating mostly in Australia would come under the supervision of the Civil Aviation Safety Authority. A CASA spokesman confirmed yesterday that this would allow it to fly here with the New Zealand flight attendant count.
So in theory, Qantas could hand over the majority of ops to Jetconnect ( on paper):eek:
Assuming NZ doesnt have the one crew per door rule (as they have already demonstrated by Jetconnect currently operating their domestic 737's with three crew) this would allow qantas to operate with minimum cabin crew as follows:
B747-400 ER (P) - 7 Cabin Crew
B747-400 K - 8 Cabin Crew
A330-300 (I) - 6 Cabin Crew
767-300 (I) - 5 Cabin Crew
Imagine the $$$ savings, they must be rubbing their hands in anticipation. :uhoh:
Ah well, it was fun while it lasted :(

RedTBar

17th Sep 2006, 03:40

Now we know why the company was possibly not worried about the number of crew taking VR and telling us there would be no need for promotion.

If GD can get the kiwi pax/crew ration he would be over the moon.

The race to the bottom has just changed up a gear.

It is a pity though that we cannot use the same theory to reduce the number of people on the board.

mamslave

17th Sep 2006, 03:48

with all the usual stuff on this thread, I thought it maybe fun for everyone to take a look at this!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lG5Iq0JViM

enjoy

qcc2

17th Sep 2006, 05:01

747/A330 will always be 1 f/a per floor level exit.:E

RedTBar

18th Sep 2006, 00:13

Not if GD has anything to do with it as he must be very envious of Kiwi registered aircraft and their pax ratio. Imagine his bonus increase if he could get that,J* and QF headquarters will be moved to AKL in a flash

Don't they operate a 737 (jet connect) with only 3 cabin crew and
if they do then that is less than a crew per main deck door....unless of course they bought 737's with only 3 doors (special order for GD)

RedTBar

18th Sep 2006, 21:29

Does anyone know if J* International or J* Asia for that matter have cabin crew rest seats ?

It would be a very long day/night to HNL without somewhere to have break and a meal for 20 minutes...

twiggs

18th Sep 2006, 23:23

Does anyone know if J* International or J* Asia for that matter have cabin crew rest seats ?
It would be a very long day/night to HNL without somewhere to have break and a meal for 20 minutes...

I very much doubt it RedTBar.
Even Emirates have no crew rest seats on their 777's.
Jet* Asia definitely do not have them and I can't imagine Jet* international would waste valuable pax seats to put crew in when they have perfectly good jump seats to sit in.

RedTBar

19th Sep 2006, 00:23

That sounds like a lot of fun and then they will probably have to clean the aircraft as well.It will be interesting to find out the accomodation that Scrooge Air is planning on using for crew in HNL and others.

Eden99

20th Sep 2006, 02:34

20th September 2006 ID54-06

Attention all Qantas Long Haul Flight Attendants

CRUCIAL MEMBERS MEETINGS CALLED

Members would be aware that the industrial situation facing cabin crew as a result of the Howard Government Industrial law changes and the Qantas cost reduction agenda has created a very “challenging” situation, in particular, for Long Haul crew

I strongly urge all Qantas Long Haul cabin crew to attend a FAAA meeting so that you can be briefed on developments and more importantly, have an opportunity to ask questions and voice your views about issues.

THESE MEETINGS WILL BE DISCUSSING SOME VERY SENSITIVE AND UP TO NOW CONFIDENTIAL MATTERS. YOUR ATTENDANCE IS A MUST!

SYDNEY: OCTOBER 3,4,5,6,9,10,11,12,13.
VENUE: FAAA OFFICE - 20 EWAN STREET, MASCOT.
TIME: 10AM-1PM.

MELBOURNE: OCTOBER 26, 27 - NOVEMBER 13, 14.
VENUE: HILTON ON THE PARK – EPICUREAN ROOM,
192 WELLINGTON PARADE, EAST MELBOURNE.
TIME: 10AM-1PM.

BRISBANE: NOVEMBER 2, 3, 16, 17.
VENUE: HILTON HOTEL – PRIVATE DINING ROOM, LEVEL 6,
190 ELIZABETH ST, BRISBANE.
TIME: 10AM-1PM.

LOS ANGELES: NOVEMBER 7, 8, 9, 10.
VENUE: WESTIN BONAVENTURE HOTEL. (MEETING ROOM TO BE ADVISED).
TIME: 10AM-1PM.

Written and authorised by Michael Mijatov – Secretary International Division.

20 Ewan Street Mascot NSW 2020 Tel 61 2 8337 1111 Fax 61 2 8337 1122 Emergency Contact 0414 894 192

sydney s/h

20th Sep 2006, 21:32

Can anyone shed any knowledge on whats happening in EP's now? Apparently we just have a 20 question exam on SOP's?

Thanks.

justsmile!

20th Sep 2006, 22:05

hi sydney s/h, I havent done ep's since june but a friend of mine mentioned the other day that the exam included an extra 20 questions on standard op procedures. Good luck to you if u have them coming up!

twiggs

21st Sep 2006, 07:57

The story I heard was that the normal EP's exam is now only 20 questions total.
The SOP's exam is a separate exam.

justsmile!

21st Sep 2006, 10:17

20 questions? That would be great but doesnt really make any sense. Considering they ask 10 questions per aircraft at the moment. My friend said it was the normal exam plus the 20 questions. He didnt mention if it was a separate exam or not.

lowerlobe

21st Sep 2006, 21:26

Airbus has announced the A-380 has or will be delayed further and that Qantas is unlikely to to recieve the 380 until 2008 at the earliest.Apparently QF has or is recieving $140 million so far in payments because of the delay and that was before this latest announcement.

Firstly,I think you can see who is paying for the cabin crew VR program and secondly,if these delays continue the QF profit for next year will be a humdinger if these penalty payments increase or continue.

Shares in airlines or the industry as a whole are generally looked at skeptically because of their sensitivity and vulnerability to outside events but shareholders in airbus must be getting particularly nervous

onQ

21st Sep 2006, 23:19

Have just done EPs. The 'short' day has an SOP module. The only exam you'll be doing is made up of 20 questions. 15 on SOPs and 5 general EP questions. No impact drills.
(though there is also a DGs exam - just the usual 5 questions though)!
If however you are doing the 'long' day, you'll be doing the normal EP exam plus impact drills.

argus.moon

22nd Sep 2006, 00:45

Are these exams 4 shorthaul or longhaul?

justsmile!

22nd Sep 2006, 01:14

the long day was what my friend did. The short day sounds fantastic!

ozskipper

22nd Sep 2006, 19:30

In light of Eden99's recent post, I'm not sure if this is possible or not, but maybe the FAAA could send up some info to the UK union Amicus (or filter it through current union members) to ensure that we're working with the Australian based crew in case it all goes pear shaped down the track.

Anyway, just a suggestion :)

twiggs

22nd Sep 2006, 23:30

Anyone heard about the 2 Aust based guys stood down for providing their own specialised service to a 17 year old girl in the cabin crew rest seats on a LHR flight?

Pegasus747

23rd Sep 2006, 01:07

hey twigss,

just to set the record str8, no sexual services occurred. It appears an ex short haul flight attendants sexual fantasies resulted in a dob against a couple of crew who were being harrassed by an "extoverted" female pax.

Rumours have spread following the CSM making an announcement on a crew bus about some underage activity based on the rantings of the ex short haul crew member. According to my sources, the woman was a uni student who had also given the previous crew on the flight a good workout

I was in Singapore when the rumours hit and i know the guys concerned and this is just another case of the truth not being as good as a fabricated story.

When the dust settles on this one i expect that the "dobber" who fabricated the whole thing will be out of a job for false accussations.

twiggs

23rd Sep 2006, 03:38

Thanks Pegasus747,
now what about Naomi Campbell?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/arts/theshallowend/200609/s1747097.htm

sebby

23rd Sep 2006, 05:09

Haha good one.

Shes just a scream that naomi... :}

speedbirdhouse

23rd Sep 2006, 14:06

The story involves the LHR base manager [Known by Syd crew as "Lurch"], a [traveling] member of the Royal Family, sacked QF group security staff member and MI5............:D

ozskipper

24th Sep 2006, 12:17

What?

That doesn't make any sense at all...... Especially give the LHR Base Manager isn't terribly tall (he's not short, but he's no lurch either)....

speedbirdhouse

24th Sep 2006, 12:34

Didn't you have one of our CCTM up there recently in an effort to get your house in order?

Initials AL ?

ozskipper

24th Sep 2006, 23:12

LOL

Errm, well that's a yes and no response.

Yes there was a CCTM with the same initials up in LHR. But she was on a job swap with one of ours. The same thing happened several months ago with our other CCTM and one of yours.

I doubt there was any "getting our house in order" business as such.

twiggs

25th Sep 2006, 02:53

Maybe they are going to operate AKL as they are doing with LHR, ie operating totally on their own, no Aust base.

hawke eye

25th Sep 2006, 07:53

Becoming a CSS is the right step for those who are ready to assume some responsibility and be prepared in making some minor but often important decisions.This is not a position for everyone. Some are happy not to have to take on extra responsibility than that which they originally applied for.

Becoming a QF CSM has by past standards required a prerequisite of several ,if not many, years of experience as a CSS.
This then involves a series of lengthy and involved interview processes.
It takes some as many as four or more attempts before they are successful. Again it is not a position for everyone.

I am not a CSM nor would I want the added responsibility that goes with it.

If it is fact that QF intend to make AKL crew CSM and CSS what thanks is that to the current LH CSSs who have been preparing and developing themselves for this opportunity of promotion and progression? What thanks is that for their loyalty in delivering the new y/c product and all their assistance with all old and new product changes?

What thanks is that to those crew who have by request from QF supported QF by taking CSS and CSM positions in the LHR base.It was understood when they took those roles they would revert to their former positions on their return.How will those former LHR base crew appreciate this offer being made to the AKL crew?

twiggs

25th Sep 2006, 10:38

hawkeye,
don't forget when the MEL and PER bases started, that was when inexperienced CSM's and CSS's first started to be used, because they could not get experienced people to move to take a promotion.
It's not a new thing and it has continued in LHR.
I don't think that there is much difference if they hire CSS's and CSM's in AKL.

TightSlot

25th Sep 2006, 22:17

Here we go...

hawke eye

25th Sep 2006, 22:24

Twiggs,
speedbird house is correct there were many Per /Mel base CSMs and CSSs who had many years of experience.
It was believed back then the majority of those selected who were very junior was more about QF attempting to change the culture rather than selecting on merit and placing a high value on flying experience as a criteria for selection.

Just because it has been done in the past does not make it a good decision. This will place a huge responsibility on many Kiwis who have not had the experience of leadership and decision making.

It of course comes as no surprise. Look at how those former line managers who acted as strikebreakers were treated after they put their reputation on the line for the Company.

This explains why there is no need to replace LHaul CSMs and CSSs due to the redundancy. The Kiwis will be replacing them.
Please remember this is in no way the fault of the Kiwis if this rumour is fact. In this case they are the meat in the sandwich.
Tightslot is right lets keep it to question and answer stuff. Lets not get into slanging matches.

sydney s/h

25th Sep 2006, 23:06

Guys,
dont shoot me down here but....

Hawkeye, you mention that a few years ago they promoted CSM/CSS's not necessarily on merit or flying experiance but for more cultural reasons.

If you have been flying for a few years do you not think that you are basically experianced enough to carry out either job? Someone who has been flying for say, 5years, is probably experianced enough in my mind to carry out the task of a CSS. To be honest, i also think that some could do the role of CSM as well.

I have worked with plenty of CSM's who have alot of years in QF (25-30yrs)and have been some of the worst managers i worked under. Not to say all of them are though.

Dont take this post as an attack - i just dont think that it should always be a job where someone with many years flying should be eligable to bid up to these positions.

RedTBar

25th Sep 2006, 23:23

I don't have a problem with the AKL base or any base promoting crew to the position of CSS or CSM.The problem I do have is the selection process.

Up to now the company has told us that the role of on board manager is vital to the delivery of the on board product,the managing of crew ,to think outside the box in solving problems,being able to represent the company in a positive way etc.....

To do this they told us we had to go through many interviews,questions on any number of situations ,personality tests and the list goes on...NOW it is going to be given to anyone who is willing to do the job for the lowest possible price....So much for the crucial role of the on board manager....

sydney s/h

25th Sep 2006, 23:47

RedTbar,

I couldnt agree more.

I went through the whole drawn out process when i applied for the position of CSM, 1 group interview, 1 interview with a manager and 1 panel interview (with a 15min presentation i found out the topic on the day) plus personality test.

With several CSM's in Syd SH taking the VR package (if they get it) we are going to be seriously short yet again. We (CSM's) constantly get drafted on days off, drafted for 2 legs such as a Mel return after coming off the PER or DRW horror.

I bet that they open up the position to MAM Casuals in the next 12mths. If they do this it will be a huge insult to the position of CSM atleast in SH.

They are already offering the new "Team Leader" job to casuals. That is our attempt at the CSS position. No doubt in the future if you want to become a CSM you will have to have been a Team Leader - i guess kinda like the set-up you have in LH.

hawke eye

25th Sep 2006, 23:56

Sydney S/H,
you have put forth some valid points.
Years of experience should not be the ONLY factor in who gets promotion. It should carry a lot of weight in the decision making process.
There are those out there who are natural and talented leaders and decision makers, who are junior in years of service.
An aircraft inflight is a very unique work place.

Your correct there are some CSM/CSSs out there who shouldn't be flying. Which proves there are Cabin crew managers who aren't doing there job by demoting them.

Anyone can be made a manager . the question is how well will they do the job.Example, Robert Mugabe is head of a country. He has ruined Zimbabwe.He is not a good manager or leader.
Selecting QF CSMs and CSSs should be about "attention to detail".
It is a position of great responsibility , problem solving, recovery and leadership as Red T Bar said earlier.
The detail should be in selecting the best in attempting to make Qantas the best.
Somethings should not be a lets go for the cheapest option choice.
I appreciate your thoughts on this topic Sydney S/H:)

sydney s/h

26th Sep 2006, 00:47

Hawkeye,

Couldnt agree more regarding the ground management who have made the decision to promote or lack of leadership to demote certain CSM's.

Maybe they should look at myself and atleast 4 of my fellow CSM's who all made our KPI's in the last 12mths - thats right 100% of KPI's - but only rated a 3/5.

But thats a whole other story. Grrrrrr........

cart_elevator

26th Sep 2006, 01:19

I get the feeling that in the future AKL-LAX-AKL will be operated by Kiwi crew only
I actually get the feeling that when the AKL base gets CSM/CSS they will more likely to be doing MEL-LAX, SYD-LAX, SYD-SFO,SYD-JNB flights they are, after all, the flights QF pays the Oz crew the most amount of $$$ in L.R.F allowance/overtime etc.
Sadly I think the reason QF let so many people go through VR is there wont be many places beyond Asia that QF wont be able to run a cheaper crew to.
As for the LHR Base it might be scary thinking of future viability:
CSM in LHR = approx AUD$65,000
CSM in AKL = approx AUD$50,600 (according to Leanne's figures)
yes they are approx figures not including allowances, just a broad comparison. Is the LHR Base going to become too expensive as well? :rolleyes:

mamslave

26th Sep 2006, 01:22

hey sydney s/h

I thought team leader and 2nd senior are the same thing? Many times when I was at Qantas I was 2nd senior (due to all casual crew, and i had been there 4 years). So why do u have an issue with casuals being team leaders?

Casual CSM thats another story, and personally I do not think it can work.

You can no expect casuals to just sit around and get no where with what they are doing, as an on board manager you should be encouraging casuals to aspire to the team leader position. IT may give some a well deserved moral boost.

Sydney s/h not a personal attack, so please don't start. Just trying to put a point across.

sydney s/h

26th Sep 2006, 01:30

Mamslave,

I actually dont have a problem with mam team leaders and never said that i did.

I do however have an issue with casual CSM's. Mainly because they are meant to hold the CSM position as some sort of management and to have a workforce that is not employed by the company etc i think its abit strange. Just my opinion - doesnt mean its right.

Goodluck to those casuals who go for the team leader - i wont stand in their way.

indamiddle

26th Sep 2006, 04:21

hi all,
does anybody know the result of the engagement survey
or is this a better kept secret than kiwi csm/css's?

management will keep doing whatever they want until such
time as the beancounters figure out that it is revenue negative.
that is why we are doing incorporated bars to/from asia ports.
with regard to o/s crew, if enough punters can't see a difference
between qf and ba/singapore/emirates then migration of loyalty
will see a transfer of dollars to other airlines.
until that happens our management will not make any change of
course

speedbirdhouse

26th Sep 2006, 13:43

Re the dis-engagement surveys......

It seems that QF have twigged that the unprecedented levels of disengagement recorded across all levels of QF by the Hewitt group relates to how the staff feel about management, not the brand.

It could be suggested that we are our own worst enemy with QF receiving historically high customer satisfaction responses at the same time as management keep kicking us........again and again.

Talking to others it seems that I am not the only one hearing disquiet from FF and the like.
Along the lines of, " why am I loyal to Qantas by supporting an Aussie company, when it isn't loyal to it's own ? ".

Peter Harbison from the centre for pacific aviation reported over two years ago that Dixon's master plan was to be the first "legacy carrier" CEO to take on [read demolish] the conditions of it's staff and our little mate johnny via work-no-choices should just about see his plan out.
Dixon has been kept on for no other reason.

Rumour has it that alison webster was in major damage control at QCC this morning what with the news of pay scales for AKL based CSSs and CSMs.

I believe it was some thing along the lines of, "we have no plans to promote in AKL in the forceeable future....."

Reminds me of dixon's, "there is nothing on my desk regarding the London base".

-------------

How sad it has been to see all the senior CSM and CSS on their last and next to last trips.

So many truely wonderfull people..... Dotty, David Fury are just a couple who have given so much of themselves over so many years. Just a couple who will be sorely missed.
The contribrution to Qantas's success that people like these have made is immeasurable and we will be left with far fewer characters on the ground.

Its sad for me to watch us morph into a soulless, characterless and homogenous corporation with staff ever fearfull of knives in the back.

A very senior, competant and caring CSM [with an order of Australia award for his charity work] said with such poignancy the other day.

"I'm leaving because I can't manage [my crew] the way i want to any more".

It broke my heart.......

-------------------

Sorry for the rant.

For those leaving, thankyou for all the wonderful memories, all the best for your retirement and see you at the reunion.

At the risk of stating the obvious. This lot don't deserve you.

--------------

Almost forgot........

Don't forget to go QF for " industrial deafness". Everyone is doing it.

Take a leaf out of management's book and cream QF FOR ALL YOU CAN GET!!!

grlfrmipanema

27th Sep 2006, 10:13

I'm not sure if I'm in the right place... I live in Tokyo and was wondering if Qantas has any CC based in Japan, or whether it's worth applying online through the website. I speak French & only a tiny bit of Japanese. I'm also on the wrong side of 35, not sure if that matters.:confused: Hope someone can help.

grlfrmipanema

27th Sep 2006, 15:02

Bugger. But thanks so much Biscuit Chucker (hehehe like the name).

Can't go anywhere - I am really stuck here in Tokyo which is a great place in so many ways, but......well, bugger.

prunezeuss

28th Sep 2006, 04:50

Two male flight attendants were stood down following reports of sexual misconduct.
The two were reported by the operating CSM.
The female involved was 17yrs old.
This event occurred on or around the 14th of September 2006.
The CC are reportedly SYD based.
This would mean that they were operating the QF 31 Sin/Lhr or QF 32 Lhr/Sin around this time...both night sectors :=
Refer Post 59 for the real story

sydney s/h

28th Sep 2006, 10:53

I saw something on tv today regarding Virgin Blue. They have just started selling 24 channels of Foxtel on board for $6.

I reckon thats great and $6 well spent on a longer flight (syd-per).

I hate Virgin but i think they are onto something. Unlike QF, we persist on a crappy IFE system on our A330's that you spend more re-setting it than anything else.

I was recently on a 744 on a longhaul flight and had no IFE for the whole trip (entire a/c was u/s). We need to get something better.

Dont Emirates have 600 channels with AVOD that works?

mostie

28th Sep 2006, 11:55

I was recently on a 744 on a longhaul flight and had no IFE for the whole trip

You are not telling anyone around here anything that they dont already know.

We have spent YEARS dealing with the anger of whole zones of passengers without IFE because the [cheap?] system we bought is so unstable.

Longhaulers have often refered to our airline as "apology airlines" and after a while it really does get you down.....

It's interesting to note that the new [for Qantas] AVOD system seems to finally be developing some stability now that we up up to software update 6 or 7.

Kudos to those in the programming department for the recent IFE award.
Best overall inflight entertainment for 4 out of the last 5 years. :D

Its a shame that so many of our international passengers never got to actually see it [working].

----------

As for the Emirates system ?
There is another thread around here somewhere suggesting that theirs is just as problematic.

ozskipper

28th Sep 2006, 12:49

I am yet to crew a flight where we don't have a problem AVOD. It's so incredibly embarrassing to have to constantly apologise.

Surely there must have been some service level agreement in place that Qantas could claim liquidated damages on for the crappy product?

Rip it out and start again I say!

peanut pusher

28th Sep 2006, 15:43

Qantas crew 'had sex romp'EXCLUSIVE by Luke McIlveen
September 29, 2006 01:00am

TWO Qantas flight attendants have been suspended amid claims they romped with a young female passenger in the galley of a plane bound for London earlier this month.

But the attendants have furiously denied they did anything wrong, claiming their only offence was being friendly to a flirtatious young woman excited about her holidays.

A third male flight attendant made the complaint against his two colleagues, claiming he witnessed kissing and sexual activity in the food preparation area of the aircraft.

While the whistleblower flight attendant described the alleged encounter in graphic detail, other cabin crew have told Qantas they saw nothing but innocent banter between the three.

The two accused men - one of whom is married with children - are also angered by SMS messages between flight attendants around the world spreading rumours that the girl was just 17.

Both men have told Qantas they believed she was in her early 20s and had made advances to them - not the other way around - during the flight three weeks ago.

"We understand it is utterly incorrect to suggest the girl was underage," Flight Attendants Association secretary Michael Mijatov said.

"Our members are astounded by the allegations that there was improper behaviour and we are defending them vigorously."

Flight attendants are urging Qantas to track down the young woman in London, so she can give her own version of what happened on the flight.

The mystery woman at the centre of the furore was travelling with a girlfriend when she began chatting with the attendant on the long-haul flight.

No complaint has been received from the woman and the accused men claim they had no contact with her after the flight touched down in Heathrow.

A Qantas spokesman said the attendants had been stood down on September 14 while the claims were investigated.

"The inquiry is ongoing and we will not be adding to that at this stage," the spokesman said.

surfside6

28th Sep 2006, 21:24

LHR Base Crews dont talk to passengers so it couldnt be them.
Be careful with this....these are ALLEGATIONS made by one crew member against others.
Hear this......as this story unfolds there are going to be a lot of red faces and it wont be of those accused.
If I was the accused I would be initiating defamation proceedings against the CSM involved.
This is another case of the QANTAS mentality of "you are guilty until proven otherwise".No Evidence required
Qantas is NOT a democracy.
Rule 1.Believe ONLY what you SEE. NOT what you read or hear

qcc2

28th Sep 2006, 23:22

the captain which was stood down and paxed home after the lax-hnl-lax diversion is taking legal action against the company:D . he did everything by the book:D . if those guys got nothing to worry about they should take action against their fellow f/a. not that i like the idea crew against crew but recent history tells me some of those misguided individuals need to learn the hard way.:ugh:

Eden99

29th Sep 2006, 02:21

Attention all Qantas Long Haul Flight Attendants
REMINDER-CRUCIAL QANTAS MEMBERS MEETINGS CALLED
On 20 September I wrote to Qantas members notifying a series of members meetings throughout the country and also in Los Angeles. I referred to a very “challenging” situation confronting Long Haul cabin crew.
I strongly urge all Qantas Long Haul cabin crew to attend a FAAA meeting so that you can be briefed on developments and more importantly, have an opportunity to ask questions and voice your views about issues.
Issues to be discussed will include:-
1) The destruction of crew conditions that will follow a Howard Government win at next years federal election.
2) The concluded arrangements in New Zealand that will allow CSM’s and CSS’s to be employed by Jetconnect (at 26% and 39% cheaper respectively compared to Australian crew).
3) A detailed briefing on the appalling Jetstar International individual contracts (35% less income for 32% more hours compared to Long Haul).
4) FAAA legal advice on the implications of the Howard industrial laws.
5) Other sensitive matters.

THESE WILL BE THE MOST IMPORTANT MEETINGS IN THE HISTORY OF THE FAAA. EVERY CREW MEMBER HAS AN OPPORTUNITY TO ATTEND – THERE WILL BE NO VALID EXCUSE THAT A MEMBER DID NOT HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO ATTEND.
IT’S TIME ALL CREW BECAME INTERESTED IN THEIR JOB SECURITY AND WORKING CONDITIONS. IF WE AS A GROUP ARE DISINTERESTED AND APATHETIC, ABOUT PROTECTING WHAT WE HAVE, THEN BE ASSURED YOUR WORKING CONDITIONS IN LONG HAUL, AFTER THE END OF EBA7 IN DECEMBER 2007, WILL BE DESTROYED.
THESE MEETINGS WILL BE DISCUSSING SOME VERY SENSITIVE AND UP TO NOW CONFIDENTIAL MATTERS. YOUR ATTENDANCE IS A MUST!
SYDNEY: OCTOBER 3,4,5,6,9,10,11,12,13.
VENUE: FAAA OFFICE - 20 EWAN STREET, MASCOT.
TIME: 10AM-1PM.

MELBOURNE: OCTOBER 26, 27 - NOVEMBER 13, 14.
VENUE: HILTON ON THE PARK – EPICUREAN ROOM,
192 WELLINGTON PARADE, EAST MELBOURNE.
TIME: 10AM-1PM.

BRISBANE: NOVEMBER 2, 3, 16, 17.
VENUE: HILTON HOTEL – PRIVATE DINING ROOM, LEVEL 6,
190 ELIZABETH ST, BRISBANE.
TIME: 10AM-1PM.

LOS ANGELES: NOVEMBER 7, 8, 9, 10.
VENUE: WESTIN BONAVENTURE HOTEL – SAN BERNARDINO ROOM- LOBBY LEVEL.
TIME: 10AM-1PM.
Written and authorised by Michael Mijatov – Secretary International Division.

hawke eye

29th Sep 2006, 03:47

Urgent Meetings!

Time To Take A Stand and if Necessary make a Stand!!!!

Im sick of hearing crew complain "what are the union doing about this".
Why you wonder?

For some very intelligent people that QF cabin crew are I am constantly astounded at the very low IQ there is on this subject.

The conditions that we as Long Haul cabin crew have rightfully been awarded were hard fought and negotiated for.
They were not given to us as a thankyou.....EVER!

Those of you who read this please let us all support our maintaining of our conditions by attending these upcoming meetings,and presenting to your fellow crew members the ideology of why we are a strong union compared to many others. It is because we have historically stood up when we have been attacked and defended rather than sit and stay silent and think it is up to others to do this on your behalf.

If you don't develop your integrity and strength to stand up, and demand to be treated with the same respect financially as our managers treat themselves, then you will be laughed at, disrespected and thrown some bones with no meat as our reward.

The union has and always will be you. It is not the leadership of the union who are its greatest strength, it is us.
Back in roman times it didn't matter how great their navy admirals were if you didnt have anyone to row the ship it wouldn't go anywhere.
Yes in those days it was slaves who rowed the boats. Those same slaves were rewarded with their freedom for doing their job.

Standing up to help protect our conditions means you are giving yourself freedom, irrespective of the outcome.
To know you have the courage to state your views if you feel you are not being treated fairly means you have freed yourself of the shackles of fear and blind submissiveness.
Freedom is to be achieved through peaceful protest as Ghandi achieved for India.
Whether these Industrial issues do become the monster the ACTU are predicting or not it is important as human beings we maintain our dignity and self respect.
Lets be strong and support each other, support the union by being the union, let us be united during these potentially challenging times. Let us give the leadership of the FAAA something to lead!:ok:

qcc2

29th Sep 2006, 04:14

as a matter of believing in OUR future as LH cabin crew under reasonable conditions. :D i am no great fan of some of the union guys however i understand the difficulty THEY and WE collectively face NOW and in the next EBA. my domestic mate just told me 75% plus of regional flying will be in SH by next year.Thats according to his CCM. given that SH has given an excemption on the 3 hours East/West AEST time zone to do bombays is another example of divisional harmony (NOT):= . where does the divisional flying agreement fit in?nothing personally against our domestic collegues but i think they will start waking up doing 120 hrs in 28 days regional flying.:ugh:

Sonique

29th Sep 2006, 04:27

Syd s/h,

Re your posting on the AVOD system at Virgin Blue, don't be too worried.

The IFE for the DJ fleet is coming second hand from U.S carrier JETBLUE, who have deemed these IFE units which they have sold to Virgin Blue as outdated and unreliable.

JETBLUE are now installing new IFE in all of it's A320 a/c.

Looks like our friend JetblackMonaro will be dealing with IFE probs soon too.

Bolty McBolt

29th Sep 2006, 04:54

sydney s/h

Don't believe the hype.
I am yet to see any AVOD system that is reliable, the includes SQ NZ and EK.

From what I have seen the A330 system works fairly well, while I am sure you have heard many horror stories about it, I have seen many flights with no resets....:ok:

Another note ? Just heard the QF 51/52 BNE - SIN is now a short haul route as of next week... Swings and round abouts

speedbirdhouse

29th Sep 2006, 06:18

Great post Hawke Eye........

It IS time to get interested in your terms and conditions and make a stand ladies and gents.

Before it is too late.........

Butterfield8

29th Sep 2006, 08:33

Its already too late.
The best we can hope for is damage limitation.
More work,less pay.
Combination of divisions.
Per Diem allowances
Removal of transport after arduous sectors.
Removal/reduction of overtime payments.
Removal of long range
Lets hope little johnny gets the boot.

speedbirdhouse

29th Sep 2006, 10:21

You are probably right Butterfield8.

I guess we will all know a little more after next weeks union meetings.

hostessvb

30th Sep 2006, 23:40

Hey Sydney S/H....

An interesting statement you made "I hate Virgin...."

Why? What is to hate? What is going on that you express that level of anger towards an airline that has created more jobs and energised the aviation industry more than anything else in recent memory.

The only thing i can think of is that as typical qf crew you see the ridiculously generous terms and conditions afforded to you being brought back to a sensible level by airlines such as VB and JQ. But even there, as qf crew you should look to yourselves and your union. You have played industrial blackmail for years with qf. Your greed and self focus has created a situation where dixon has to quite rightly look for alternate options.

Look at the work we do as crew....apart from the shift work it isn't hard (and plenty of workers do shift work for less pay). And its not exactly complex either. Its basic customer service with a safety focus.

I think I am paid generously for what I do at VB, and that is about twice the work that you as qf crew perform. You people live in some strange little fantasy land, where you run around moaning to each other about how badly done by you are. Reality is you have been closeted in your comfortable little world, unable to properly understand what decent terms and conditions really are, for years. Your union has done you a disservice by pandering to you instead of telling you the industrial realities of life. Now, when the end is nigh, rather than look to yoursleves you blame dixon and howard. Why?

And can i just say....as others have said from time to time on this site....do yourself a favour and just LEAVE if you hate it that much. Why do you lot stay in a job and work for a company you so clearly despise? Ooooh....that's right....you couldn't possibly get the same money in the real world, because at the end of the day your 'skills' are limited to chucking a lunch box at uncomplaining customers. And most of you can't even do that with so much as a smile!

Sydney S/H....i have to just say that I am glad to be a part of the change in this industry, the change that you lot loathe. I am glad to be a part of the next generation of cabin crew, who genuinely want to do this job, look after our Guests (not customers at VB) and who are prepared to work for a living. And I shall enjoy watching the demise of the qf dinosaurs.

flitegirl

1st Oct 2006, 00:17

Wow, hostessvb. That's some pretty harsh comments there yourself. You sound very bitter and twisted - perhaps you are another VB Qantas wanna-be. There's always so many VB crew applying for the Flying Kangaroo. In actual fact we work pretty hard when it comes to service. Jump on an 8 hour daylight sector on Qantas and you will see the crew are pretty much non stop. We have lots to get through....two full meal services on a jumbo jet is just some of it. Not to mention the attention to detail required in business and first class. I've only flown VB once but I must remark that the service on that flight consisted of a food/bev cart being taken down that single aisle once, then the crew hung out in the galley. Perhaps that sought of day at the office is worth less pay and conditions?

Furthermore, if you believe that the role of cabin crew is " basic customer service with a safety focus" then I would be very worried as a passenger on your flight. I question where your priorities are. At Qantas, crew see safety and emergency procedure proficiency as their number one priority - I reckon most QF crew would see their job in the cabin as being a safety professional, with a customer service element that comes second.

So, Please don't generalise and call Qantas crew greedy and self focused.....oh and dinosaurs. I've been flying for nearly 8 years and my focus at work is to do all I can to make sure our CUSTOMERS have a great time with us, and get off with a fond opinion of our national carrier. I'm no dinosaur and I've always got a happy face:) And in return we want our company to appreciate our efforts and maintain our conditions. A fair days pay for a fair days work I say.

flitegirl

1st Oct 2006, 00:38

couldn't have said it better myself BC:D

I note hostessvb is on her soapbox in the JQ thread too.

"uber hosty" I love the term.!!!! can I use that some time Chucker?

hostessvb

1st Oct 2006, 00:47

well flitegirl, you must be the exception to the rule. i am sure there are qf crew who are committed to their job and who genuinely want to create a positive customer experience....just haven't seen them on the flights i've been on. and i certainly don't think they frequent this site. if you want to see what i base my comments about greedy and self focused crew on.....read the comments from your colleagues on this thread.

i love my job. i haven't hit the bitter and twisted point yet and in fact think i am a long way from it. but before i do i will have the deceny to resign and move on to somethign else. you might suggest that as a course of action for some of your work mates.

as for safety, its a crucial part of the job and we take it seriously at vb. its our number one priority too. but the majority of the actual work you do as crew, as you know, is customer service. i know too many qf crew who have for too long used the 'safety professional' argument as an excuse for poor customer service.

and you know....i actually admire qf as a business. i just hope dixon has the mettle to make the necessary changes to keep it going. i hope he's actually able to get a fair days work for the more than fair days pay he is providing.

mostie

1st Oct 2006, 02:25

Same person and same twisted "I hate Qantas Cabin Crew [AND their conditions] rant".

Get help son!!

flitegirl

1st Oct 2006, 02:45

. but the majority of the actual work you do as crew, as you know, is customer service.

Actually you know what, a large proportion of my day in the air and on the groung is safety related. There's countless duties and responsibilites so I wont even bother going into it. i don't think you are going to win this debate hostessvb....not in this thread. So perhaps go back to the VB thread and you guys can nut it out over there. Enjoy.

missleadfoot

1st Oct 2006, 04:32

Hostessvb,

I'm not going to suggest you go back to your own forum, I would like you to realize a fact that hasn't been addressed yet on this forum. I will say it quickly and bluntly. Do you like the conditions you work under? Do you enjoy your pay? Are you happy in this job? You pretty much asnwered yes to all of these questions in your previous posts. Let me tell you that these "QF dinosaurs" you are so willing to critisize have actually faught year after year after year to gain better working conditions and standards for ALL flight attendants in this country, including those who decline union membership but are willing to reap the benefits. If it wasn't for the "dinosaurs" (as you put it) a new start up airline such as Virgin Blue could have put you all on a dismal salary with paltry conditions. You should be thanking these people for the conditions you now have. Look at Ryan Air (Ireland) crew must pay for their own training, endorsment and uniforms. Do you really want this country to go this way? It could and it will with an attutude like your's. What do you think an EBA is? It is a tool to negotiate your conditions. Look at JetStar, their conditions aren't that bad, thats because we have rules that all the "dinosaurs" from Qantas, TAA, Australian, Ansett, East West faught for. No, don't thank us, thank your happy airline for just offering you the conditions you currently fly under.

Sonique

1st Oct 2006, 04:59

HostessVB,

Even your username suggests that of the golden days...something of which I highly doubt virgin blue would like you calling yourself....especially being a 'new age flight attendant ' as you call yourself. :=

I find it interesting that you are on the QF forum boasting about virgin blue when in reality you are facing a very scary future.......

1. Virgin Blue cabin crew EBA currently being renegotiated with great difficulity. No outcome reached. Existing Conditions AT RISK.

2. DJ looking at reducing crew numbers on 737-800 services from 5 to 4. And from 4 to 3 on 737-700.

3. DJ slowly installing second hand 'Jetblue Airlines' in-flight entertainment in each seat which is riddled with problems.

4. New crew management system being installed at DJ, which in turn will max utilise cabin crew to save the company crewing costs which are now too high thanks to the invent of JQ.

5. A uniform that falls apart very easily and is now VERY dated as it was designed by Marcs back in 1999 ( 20th century ) therefore making you look like a bunch of dinosaurs.

6. Inter fighting between BNE and MEL based crew over layover times and layover destinations.

7. Inaugral Virgin Blue flight BNE-SYD AUG 2000. Cabin crew too busy dancing in cabin during pushback that ATC had to advise tech crew via radio that L1 was not closed properly. High Attention to safety ???????????

This is only a few of the problems you are facing. At Qantas we are facing problems also, but until now, we never attacked DJ crew on this website like you have done to us. I have many close DJ friends who I admire and vice versa and their attitudes are certainly not aligned with yours.

Good Day.

hostessvb

1st Oct 2006, 09:30

...and so on they go, merrily ranting away about how the world owes them a living....with their heads firmly buried in the sand and the industrial landscape changed around them...

adieu my friends. see you when you are serving me fries and a big mac, having done to qantas what your mates did to ansett.

now as i depart, lets all join hands and sing the internationale....

OzyOS

1st Oct 2006, 09:49

hostessvb....Just what are you trying to prove??? In a JQI Post you wrote that other crew seem "bitter", but its you that is only proving this about yourself.

With all due respect...Grow up and stop bouncing from thread to thread trying to poision them.

TightSlot

1st Oct 2006, 10:15

hostessvb - I'd be just thrilled if you could avoid wandering into this thread and stirring everybody up in future. It's not difficult, and it's not productive - nor is it clever. You are, I'm sure, best qualified to comment on your own employer, and this might be the best thing to do in future.

For the rest of you, who have managed to deal with this without resorting to the traditional abuse - well done and thank you.

Now, let's move on...

hawke eye

1st Oct 2006, 23:04

Well said tightslot,
What this recent discussion piece has highlighted is the majority of us who fly do care about our jobs and ensuring we have quality and decent conditions to match. So I would urge and refer those of you who feel strongly about your future and whats happenning to our industry to refer to post 96 and 95 in that order.

To all Virgin crew understand we respect what you do as cabin crew.
I hold the view we are all flight attendants and it is up to all of us to recognise that our jobs as crew (irrespective the employer) deserve to be recognised with decent conditions and remuneration.

The one thing employers would love to see on here is divisiveness within an occupation (cabin vcrew) in order to play one groups conditions against the other. Its called a race to the bottom. Those that say yes to anything offered and attack others on better conditions play straight in to the hands of these despicable management tactics causing them only to laugh as they walk to the bank to check their bonus has been paid.

Once again refer post 96 and 95 please:ok:

Middle Seat

1st Oct 2006, 23:34

OK. I'm no hostie, trolly dolly/troll, FA, steward(ess), or any other moniker I can think of. I'm just SLF, and not even from down that way, but enjoy a lurk on here once in awhile.

I do have a trip down that way soon, and I've got segments booked on QF, DJ and JQ, and am contemplating more of the alphabet soup down there. I've had nothing but good service on QF (but, har har, I usually fly US-domestic services :yuk: ), and if hostessVB is typical of DJ, uhm...it'll be just like being at home!

seriously, hope she aint working HBA-ADL in January. :suspect:

qcc2

2nd Oct 2006, 03:49

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As a SWA Employee you will receive Profit Sharing . . . and Southwest Airlines has had 32 consecutive years of profit!
Southwest Airlines has FABULOUS Medical, Dental and Vision plans for all Employees!
SWA offers a casual uniform environment, which means you can wear tennis shoes!
The Southwest Airlines University offers Career Development classes for all SWA Employees!
Southwest Airlines holds Chili Cookoffs, Holiday Celebrations, Deck Parties, Golf Tournaments and more for all SWA Employees and their family members.
SWA Employees get a dollar for dollar match in their 401K (US Pension plan) - up to 7.3% of their investment!

this all adds up to more pay then in QF.:} low cost and being profitable and sharing it with employees can be a long term successs story. where does it leave J* and VB? :sad:

sydney s/h

2nd Oct 2006, 07:16

Well apparently i struck a chord when i said i "hated" Virgin Blue.

Just to clarify...

1. I "hate" the way Virgin Blue turned up in Australia and their boss said he was here to do the Aust public a service as they had been taken advantage of by the duolopy of QF and AN. They were after $$$.

2. I "hate" the way Virgin Blue prides itself with its advertising by putting down QF all the time. You never see QF putting out any advertising. QF constantly puts on mercy flights -sometimes paid for by the Govt, sometimes self funded.
When AN collapsed QF carried loads of pax free of charge. Virgin Blue?

3. I "hate" it when my wife flies on Virgin Blue occasionally for work reasons and she comes home complaining how the FA's tried to sell her stuff onboard 4 times on a SYD-ADL sector. Oh and she tells me the onboard jokes are getting old and repetitive.

4. I "hate" the way that Virgin Blue FA's refuse to acknowledge you when you see them about the place and you say hi.

5. I "hate" Richard Branson. He's a ****.

So there you go.

hawke eye

2nd Oct 2006, 09:07

Just a thought, Virgins boss attempts to be everyones best friend. Hes very shrewd.I once had a beer in japan with some Virgin crew. They were raving about wha a nice guy he is.
I told them that my boss(Mr Strong) might not try to be my best buddy but at least i got paid what i am worth. Yes it did take years of tough negotiations but I do get paid a reasonable wage.
I suggested if Mr Virgin really respected you as an employee he would pay you a "reasonable" wage.

I explained i saw life differently to them. Enjoying my job which I still do is about how I interact with the customers and get paid a "reasonable" wage for doing a great job.

Their view which had been pushed by the culture of the company was about making life a party every where you go, singing in the aisle, being funky , alternative.
I asked did their pay cover their life expenses and mortgage. I was met with dead silence.:D

surfside6

3rd Oct 2006, 00:04

The position of Flight Attendant at QF has come full circle.
When I started 25 years ago it was a good part time job.
It paid less than a second job I had.It is becoming that again.
Buy a business and fly partime ..... perfect!!

qcc2

3rd Oct 2006, 01:53

you must be part time mate, as i can certainly not say the same about my rosters. and we are not that far apart in senority, but maybe in category. carmen always adds a surprise to my roster:ugh: .

surfside6

3rd Oct 2006, 02:03

No I am a supervisor.
What I was proposing is not yet a reality as QF dont offer partime to CSS.
Its what I would like to happen...for me.

mach2male

3rd Oct 2006, 06:56

I am away on a trip.
Any one attend the FAAA info day?
If So could you fill me in on any details.

Snowbabe

3rd Oct 2006, 19:52

Is anyone able to give me some info about working for Jetconnect as QF LH, I understand they are interviewing. What is the pay like???:)

hawke eye

3rd Oct 2006, 22:18

Mach 2 male,
from what the FAAA said these meetings cover very sensitive issues. im not sure we should be covering the topics and contents of those meetings in this forum. If any of us cant make them then we should speak to someone who attended.

Some people on here would love to use this as an alternative to attending.That is not a reference to you Mach.Many will be away and miss attending, all the more reason we should discuss it when we meet either in slip port or onboard.

This may be the ideal forum to discuss outcomes of the meetings further down the track, just a suggestion. Im sure eden or pegasus can give us further advice on this issue.:)

Guardian1

4th Oct 2006, 09:56

A very sensible suggestion hawk eye.

The 2 meetings so far in sydney have been great turn outs and there has been unanimous support for the FAAA position regarding changes that need to occur.

All crew should attend a meeting.

mach2male

4th Oct 2006, 10:01

But...can someone PM me with the bones of the meetings?

Snowbabe

5th Oct 2006, 01:01

I am looking at applying for Jetconnect who have assessment centres next week. Are they worth working for? What is the pay and bonuses like???

cartexchange

5th Oct 2006, 08:23

if you want to know whats going on at the meeting go and participate.
if you cant make it then call the FAAA and get the information.

mach2male

5th Oct 2006, 08:35

You have been a great help.....:D

Nanock

5th Oct 2006, 12:12

Hi everyone & anyone! :)
I've been invited to a recruitment centre for QantasLink in acouple of weeks. Has anyone been to this assessment day recently? Any tips, suggestions or advice? Does QantasLink hire permanent full-time? All replies will be very much appreciated!! Am already nervous.... :confused:

Many thanks.xo

cart_elevator

6th Oct 2006, 04:48

Interesting bit of the new Shorthaul CSM contract, does this mean it is effectively an AWA?

The Flight Attendants (Domestic Airlines) Award 1985 and related Enterprise Agreements as in force from time to time applies to your employment. The provisions of that award apply to your employment independently of and do not form part of the terms and
conditions fixed by this letter or any other terms and conditions of employment agreed between Qantas and yourself.

So what sort of terms and conditions can the shorthaul CSMS negotiate between QF and themselves?

example:

" I will only do X destination and Y destination, and in return I will offer QF 20 more hours a roster! "

When do the CSMS get to negotiate outside the EBA? Are there guidelines as to what they can and cannot negotiate for?

indamiddle

6th Oct 2006, 07:08

also called 'playing the game' with crewing in shorthaul
this is not restricted to csms
e.g usually revolves around delays where an unscheduled
overnight with crew/pax due to duty limitations and disruptions.
crew may extend where individual and separate agreements with
crewing means crew extend....agreement may include increasing
overtime allowances for the day and even dropping a duty such as
2/4 legs futher in the roster and have it turned into a duty free day
....negotiating can be so much fun, lots more interesting than just
having a yes/no vote as in longhaul

sydney s/h

7th Oct 2006, 11:07

Hey Cart Elevator,

What you highlighted was the same as in my contract from a few years ago.

It has nothing to do with AWA's (or it certainly didnt back then!) - no such thing when i got my CSM job.

Cheers,
Sydney S/H.

stubby jumbo

8th Oct 2006, 04:14

Just enquiring as to what others on here think about career progression for the FA category , now that we have seen many of our former colleagues leave?

Do you think there will be an upgrade soon?

I left the Perth Base 2 years ago hoping my prospects for upgrade may improve:bored:

Thanks:ok:

DEFCON4

8th Oct 2006, 05:05

Looks like NRT EX SYD is also going to shorthaul.
Since the Classics demise on this route it has become a sitting duck for the Airbus trained shorthaul crew.
Another destination disappears.
JNB,LAX FRA SFO is about all that will be left soon.

flitegirl

8th Oct 2006, 05:23

interesting:ouch:

what about MEL/NRT and PER/NRT - any info there?

DEFCON4

8th Oct 2006, 09:24

It would be inefficient not to have shorthaul do the PER/NRT and MEL/NRT sectors...so I guess they would go as well.

sydney s/h

8th Oct 2006, 11:33

yeap - we got wind that the NRT are coming our way.

speedbirdhouse

8th Oct 2006, 22:45

Whilst I understand that QF doesn't give a rats about it's own customers my understanding is that the company has an obligation to supply language speakers on it's various codeshare flights ?

If so how does QF get around this obligation given that our domestic collegues dont seem to have too many?

I had to laugh when I heard that the longhaul "Sherpa" assisting the first shorthaul operated BOM sector had done EXACTLY ONE BOM trip prior to taking on the role..........

Oh well.......at least he looks the part.

Interesting to note that international passenger numbers are down 8%.......

http://www.smh.com.au/news/business/airlines-off-to-flying-start/2006/10/08/1160246011426.html

surfside6

8th Oct 2006, 23:03

flitegirl

9th Oct 2006, 00:09

a class of japs going through training at the moment? yes mel and per- nrt are both going to sh.:ugh:

It all makes sense. MAM has been recruiting Japanese and Chinese speakers recently.

lowerlobe

9th Oct 2006, 00:24

Without wanting to sound cynical has anyone actually seen the patterns with S/H doing the NRT's ?

It is obvious that Darth wants L/H to go the way of the dinosaurs but let's not count the chickens before they hatch.

If S/H are going to do the NRT's the company will probably save a motsa in allowances and that would certainly please a bonus minded boss.

While we are on rumour(s) another is that with the latest delay with the flying croissant and it's appearance now late 2008 at the earliest the company is thinking about another VR package as there will be not enough flying for L/H crew.If the rumour about Japan flying is true then there will be a lot more under used crew.

Hands up for how many would take a package if it is offered again !!!

mostie

9th Oct 2006, 00:39

Information via the BOS desk suggests that half a dozen crew a day were calling up to ask if they could take the package, AFTER the closure date.

priapism

9th Oct 2006, 01:57

I'm surprised that it's only half a dozen a day!

qcc2

9th Oct 2006, 03:47

the last LH CSM (oz based) appointment letter was 2 pages, my mate tells me. the current sh CSM appointment letter is 8 pages long. i would take it to a lawyer and have several sections crossed out. wonder what they would do?:ugh: :rolleyes:
re package my senority number has ONLY gone down a couple of hundred. so whats all the talk about 400 senior guys/gals leaving?

Butterfield8

9th Oct 2006, 06:12

You shouldnt believe all the expert testimony you receive here on PPRuNE.

stubby jumbo

9th Oct 2006, 07:42

Just called past the BOS desk after EP's to try and validate the latest rumour of more VR due to the "flying croissant "( luv it Lowerlobe ! ) being de-layed .

They reckon the bean counters are crunching the numbers as we speak.

Looks like a Happy Chrissie for those who missed the 1st offer:confused:

sydney s/h

9th Oct 2006, 08:17

SH aint SH anymore!

The latest bid package for Sydney SH CSM's .....

Auckland, Bombay, Jakarta, Hong Kong, Manila, Shanghai, Bejing, Singapore.

Hmm and one strange destination... LRE?! What the? Where's that...?

5day trips to Bejing, 6day trips Bom, etc....

Times are a changin'

Bolty McBolt

9th Oct 2006, 08:43

Why would you fly Qantas when you have a choice?
1.IFE system that is totally unreliable
2.Aircraft that break down.
3.First and Business class seats that dont work.
4.Galleys that leak into floors under pax feet.
5.Toilets U/S on full flights
6.A managerial indifference to pax complaints about delays ,aircraft,IFE and seating problems
7.Continuous lighting problems
...and now we have cultural indifference
Bravo..bloody Bravo :D

Surfside I was always told a bad tradesman blames his tools.

This is a rumour netwok not an exaggeration network.
1 IFE isn't great but when you compare the troubles every airline has with VOD its a very similar story and the A330 fleet is pretty good these days.

2 Aircraft that break down- I can guarantee you are no worse off than anyone else, except that QF suffers the tyranny of distance if an aircraft goes U/S up the line.

3 Previous J class seat was bad for reliability but the beds work fine unless you know something we in engineering don't.

4 (this is my favourite) Galleys that leak on the floors. 95% of the time this is caused by pure sabotage. It is caused by a certain object that I won't name in here being put down the drain that does a perfect job of blocking the pipe below floor level causing the galley drains to back up and wet the floors.
Yes ladies and gentlemen of this forum you can guess whom they blame for this !!

5 It is rare for the toilets to fail these days and again that sabotage word comes out when describing a percentage of the causes when toilets forward of door 2 go U/S.

6. Agreed

7. You do have a valid point on the 744 P and J class lighting, Its rubbish

sydney S/H LRE is Longreach QLD

surfside6

9th Oct 2006, 09:29

You toy with semantics.
You in engineering dont know half of what is going on as half the time some hold items have been there for over 14 days.So either you dont see the aircraft,cant fix the problem or dont have the spares or dont know how to fix the problem.
I live on these things...you visit them once in awhile.
Get with the programme....I like to work on an aircraft where everything works(as do the pax).
As one individual you inspect aircraft randomly..you dont see them all.Aircraft tend to be route specific.Work on a particular route you see the same a/c...with the same problems week after bloody week.
BTW OJK had the 4 aft toilets RS for 10 days...how many sectors is that?
I have no input into malfunctions except to report them.
I have no tools since I am not allowed to carry them onboard.
I blame no one except management for these failings

sydney s/h

9th Oct 2006, 10:53

Surfside,
You say you blame management but then you give the engineers a stab - You in engineering dont know half of what is going on....
Give them a break - they work hard and do a great job.

surfside6

9th Oct 2006, 11:51

Thats your perception...not my intention.
The reason they (engineering)may not know what is going on is due in part to the short periods of time these a/c actually spend in Sydney.
Engineering may not see these planes for a couple of weeks.
I have friends who are LAMES so dont try to turn my words into criticism.
Bolty BTW was having a go at me for venting my frustration.
I am sure he is as frustrated as me.
I am just as sure he doesnt need your two cents worth of cheerleading.

lowerlobe

9th Oct 2006, 20:59

If there are problems with the aircraft then that is the company's problem ,it is frustrating for everyone but we all contribute to the problem by getting around them and then the company has won again.The company has not spent a cent but we keep everything running while the decision makers procastinate as usual.

The only problem that we should be concerned about is Darths use of the time honoured principle of divide and conquer.

If it is not one union (S/H faaa) short selling their members to secure work it is a pilot group doing it as well and so on.

If we stuck together as a group then Darth would get nowhere but he has people falling over themselves to apply for work with pathetic T's & C's.

Darth loves us having a shot at each other because it perpetuates his management style.The only work force he wants is a divided one.

The latest one is the letter from LG telling us that L/H will not fly the flying croissant under our current T&C's ...let's have a shot at them not each other

DEFCON4

9th Oct 2006, 21:21

They can have it.
The idea of flying to LAX with 600 of my closest friends is not my idea of fun.
Give the ugly thing to Jet Star.
It hopefully will never arrive

Bolty McBolt

10th Oct 2006, 02:03

Surfside you are correct, I wasn't having a go at you, I was just pointing out via your post that some of the cabin failures are blamed by management on CC and I suggested that blaming the aircraft for CC not giving their best is not a good thing ( tradesman and tools comment)

I see an aweful lot more aircraft than you may think, whether it be on a busy outstation handling transits, doing research and stats for cabin/aircraft defects or fixing problems when the aircraft is parked in SYD overnight.

The biggest problem with maintaining cabin defects is they are not reported at the correct time eg.
Many cabin defects are written up by CC on your first sector out when you are still fresh and keen. Problem is that the transit time is about 60 mins so only minor rectificaion can be carried out by engineering or band aide solution to get the aircraft thru the next sector. When CC are on the return flight back to base tired from lack of slip time and making do with the myriad of problems that "surfside" listed. The defects are not written up into a station where the most resourses and parts are. It is as if CC are on the home straight want to get off and the passing on of defects to the engineers gets missed. This applies to L/H, London Base, S/H the lot.
If you are flying into BNE SYD MEL LAX LHR FRA go for gold the aircraft are on the gound long enough to be fixed

surfside6

10th Oct 2006, 03:22

Bolty McBolt

10th Oct 2006, 04:12

I thought that any problem logged and not fixed became a hold item and was rectified when the A/C returned to Sydney.
So,what you are saying is that the problem needs to be re entered on the inbound sector...is this correct?.
If so,a change in the system of reporting needs to take place and CC made aware of this shortcoming.
Could you verify please.

Surfside you are quite correct make sure as many defects are written up acurately to ports where tech support is available.
In an ideal world every defect per transit would be fixed but there are factors and forces working against this. On a short transit with many defects written up the engineer has a few choices, Inop the equipment label it and log it, fix permanentlty or bandaide fix in the short time available so it operates the next sector so as not to increase CC work load, this is a very popular option I can assure you. Signed off as reset etc

Engineerings KRAs and KPIs are on time performance = no delays allowed. With this in mind think about what can be achieved on a short transit on an out station. This why I recommend CC write up the same amount of defects on their way home (where things can get fixed) as they do first sector out. Which does not happen.
Secondly if CC feel that there are to many cabin defects talk to your CSM whom then can consult with Tech crew to call the delay as engineering won't.
Its the way things are and have been forever, don't expect change as huge amounts of money are being pulled out of our budgets so it will get worse before it gets better.

QPB not sure which defect but I will look it up and PM you with an answer. Are you talking CC rest lights?

indamiddle

10th Oct 2006, 04:19

a skipper told us over drinks....so this may be wrong! to transfer any continuing problems in ccl onto the tech log which supposedly will speed up repairs...maybe 'bolts can confirm/deny this

surfside6

10th Oct 2006, 04:27

I ususally keep a work sheet with the A/C Rego..but not this time..Sorry
Pretty sure of the Rego tho'.
Thanks.
The crew that operates an A/C outbound is quite often not the CC that operates the A/C inbound.
The Cabin Condition log is looked at and if the problem has been logged by the previous crew it is not re entered.
So it Should be?
A notice needs to be put out to that effect.
Wow we might be onto something....what do you think?

Bolty McBolt

10th Oct 2006, 05:03

I fully understand the same crew don't always operate the same aircraft home but if you look in the cabin log (remains with aircraft) quite often you will see on first sector out of SYD to BKK 4 pages of cabin log defects and then to LHR 1 page as London base return home.
Then LHR - BKK 4 pages again 1st sector out then the BKK - SYD 1 page as SYD L/H return home if you get my drift. This happens. Sorry to harp on

No notice needs to be put out just remain as vigilant in recording cabin defects on all sectors of your work. This will help you providing the service you want.

The A330-300 there are about 4 with this CC rest defect. Its an Airbus problem and they like to take their sweet time getting back to us with a fix as its a lighting control software issue.

qcc2

10th Oct 2006, 06:27

BMB says "Secondly if CC feel that there are to many cabin defects talk to your CSM 'whom then can consult with Tech crew to call the delay as engineering won't.
there are set guidelines which the CSM has to check before he/she can ask for a delay. must be major safety or pax discomfort, like total IFE failure before departure. otherwise its just close the door, good luck and apologie airways as usual.:{

surfside6

10th Oct 2006, 07:14

Will kee in touch via PM...if thats ok?

DEFCON4

10th Oct 2006, 07:50

Off topic ...sorry
I have 22 years up...my seniority went up 205 slots
My girlfiend has 14 years up..her seniority went up 264 slots
Conclusion: the rest of VR retirees were less than 14 years seniority(130)
or the rest of the retirees are yet to be taken out of the system.
Otherwise there were not 400 crew who took up VR
Anyone in the know confirm this ?

grahamm

10th Oct 2006, 11:33

I am not in the aviation industry, but my girlfriend is a S/H CSM with almost 29 years up and her seniority went up by 119 slots and having discovered this site, we think it an interesting one and want to continue with it. (I am the more computer literate one lol)

I have recently learned a new phrase "carmenised"

stubby jumbo

10th Oct 2006, 12:17

On good authority( from someone who works on QCC/3).

the total number of VR in L/H was 532.

DEFCON4

10th Oct 2006, 20:28

Well Stubby those numbers dont add up...unless there was nealy 200 very junior crew take the package.
Figures quoted earlier were around 392.Which seem to fit the movement above me.

lowerlobe

10th Oct 2006, 21:21

There are a couple of things about the VR package that don't add up..

The first is that the company when the VR package was announced for L/H said they were worried that they would not get the numbers they required and that they would have to offer it to S/H as well to get the required 325 .

Then when they admitted that the offer was over subscribed and they did not know if the board would give it to all the crew over the 325 number they still offered it to S/H.

Then when the OK was given to all the L/H crew they still gave it to crew who asked if it was not too late.I don't know how many but there were some who got it after the deadline.

Now the company will still not tell anyone how many left.

I understand that quite a few junior crew did take it as they were fed up with no career progression..

So the final figure is only known to a select few and I can only imagine it is because the company does not want anyone to know or understand the impact of these numbers and the use of substitute crew from bases such as AKL to make up the difference especially for CSS's and CSM's

sydney s/h

10th Oct 2006, 22:05

I had heard that SH CSM's would fly with LH crews to make up the shortfall of the departure of all the LH CSM's who took the package on all non-747 routes.

Hows that for a rumour.

qcc2

10th Oct 2006, 22:47

wouldn't surprise me that s/h and l/h crews are starting to mix flights. as far as i know there are no provisions in the eba which would prevent this.:rolleyes:

DEFCON4

11th Oct 2006, 00:38

VR has been offered to shorthaul and so many pursers have put their hand up that are now madly promoting.
I dont think that they have the numbers to cross crew anything.
A mate is a shorthaul purser and he is going,but not sure when.

surfside6

11th Oct 2006, 00:43

You put a domestic purser in charge of a longhaul crew and you are just asking for trouble......and thats not a rumour....thats fact!!!

cartexchange

11th Oct 2006, 01:02

domestic pursers in Long Haul......not a good idea!!!!!!!!!!!!!

there really would be a revolt!

the fireworks would be interesting though!

upper_deck_cabin

11th Oct 2006, 01:14

On the subject of mixed crewing, I was told that Jetconnect AKL base were training CSM and CSS crew for Long haul. Does anyone know if this is true?

blackguard

11th Oct 2006, 01:20

Its an option.
If it did eventuate they would be in charge of an ALL AKL based crew.
eg.AKL/LAX/AKL or AKL/LAX/SYD/AKL

qcc2

11th Oct 2006, 02:44

that the current eba does not allow them to train csm/css in other bases, except lhr.:ugh:
as to the number of aircraft cabin crew can operate. their are no legislated numbers in oz yet, however the recommendations are 3 a/c types with one varient added.:*

lowerlobe

11th Oct 2006, 06:16

The story at the moment is that the cap on overseas crew and a lot of the other EBA "protected" clauses are not worth their weight in rocking horse manure.

Whether this is because of the new IR laws or some loophole is another matter....if true though Darth is holding all the cards in the deck...

Unless the faaa can come up with an earth shattering offer ,I doubt that Darth is willing to negotiate anything

twiggs

11th Oct 2006, 07:57

I have a feeling all the questions in the last few posts will be answered at the union meetings.
Come on people, go to a meeting, there is enough of them.

lowerlobe

11th Oct 2006, 08:50

TWIGGS,et al...
I could not agree more

I and a lot of others have gone to a union meeting and these are some of the points that I and others have heard at that meeting and I am waiting and interested to see what intiatives the faaa comes up with as it is only just over 12 months until the expiry of our current EBA....I have not posted anything remotely sensitive or allegations regarding fellow crew..

As these points have been raised at the union meetings I think it is healthy to discuss ideas here so long as they do not contain any abuse or defamatory statements

Butterfield8

11th Oct 2006, 09:58

Dont know what all this "hush Hush" stuff is all about.
No big surprises
With Howards help little Geoffy can do what he wants when he wants
Our only hope ...the ballet box.

sydney s/h

11th Oct 2006, 22:51

Guys,

you say that putting a S/H CSM or "domestic purser" (as you guys like to call us) would cause trouble, you'd have a revolt etc.....

If a SH CSM rocked up to QCC to take a LH crew on a PER return for example, what would happen? Why would the crew get angry etc at the CSM?

:confused:

twiggs

11th Oct 2006, 23:43

Sydney S/H,
nothing would happen, these people are all talk.
If it is allowed in our respective EBA's etc, no-one would be crazy enough to risk their jobs over something that they could do nothing about.

mach2male

12th Oct 2006, 01:45

You wanna bet.
Most of us would go sick and go home.
You guys live in Disneyland

sydney s/h

12th Oct 2006, 01:51

Mach,

Thats fine - go sick. But you surely wouldnt take it out on the SH CSM?!

twiggs

12th Oct 2006, 02:22

Actually most crew would just get on with the job, no matter who was the CSM, be it S/H, LHR, AKL, or BKK.

mach2male

12th Oct 2006, 02:40

You are talking hypotheticals....totally pointless.
You fail to understand or accept the depth of resentment we have for you.
Twiggs ..you do not speak for me or the other 3000 LH CC.
This whole discussion is useless since it will only end one way... with bannings and closure of this forum.
Just leave it alone!!!!

twiggs

12th Oct 2006, 03:00

Yes it is all very hypothetical and pointless.

BUT, mach2male, deep resentment for S/H in L/H does not exist in a large scale so please do not try to speak for the majority of L/H cabin crew who really only want to go to work, do their job, and get paid.

mach2male

12th Oct 2006, 05:48

I am in a position to speak for a broad cross section of longhaul crew..they do not share your opinion.
Do Not Speak for me or them.
You appear to speak for a minority...indeed i suggest YOU are ex shorthaul.
This will be my last comment on the matter.
JUST LEAVE IT ALONE.

mostie

12th Oct 2006, 06:04

Twiggs,

band payments, the COMPLETE casualisation of the shorthaul workforce and their negotiations with Qantas that have seen them take a large proportion of our flying.......... on reduced terms and conditions????

There is enormous resentment now that the bar has been lowered by such a degree on the conditions for EXISTING Australian international cabin crew.

It's interesting that some of the most vocal critisism that I have heard has actually come form ex shorthaul transferees,

Their comments..........
If they wanted to fly internationally why didnt they just transfer?

sydney s/h

12th Oct 2006, 06:50

All i mentioned (a few posts ago) was why would you take out your anger on a SH CSM if he or she was to crew with you. You say that its hypothetical but its also probable.
I, for one, didnt vote the last eba in - nor do i fly regional. So you'd want to be careful who you tar with the same brush.

DEFCON4

12th Oct 2006, 07:16

There is no provision in either EBA for cross crewing (LH/DOMESTIC)so its not probable.....just hypothetical and emotionally charged.So you need to be very careful.
Your post is a cop out.

mostie

12th Oct 2006, 07:24

I think that Twiggs is probably correct as open hostility would leave the perpetrators subject to the threat of disciplinatory action.

You would most likely be "sent to Conventry" and find your slip time very lonely.

Officious types are likely to find themselves walking off aircraft wearing only one shoe..........:=

twiggs

12th Oct 2006, 07:24

Yes Mostie,
I am aware of the effects of the S/H EBA on L/H, but that does not mean S/H went out to intentionally undermine our flying.

All I am saying is that the majority of L/H crew have nothing against S/H crew personally, and if a situation arose where we had to work side by side, we would do so professionally.

You people forget that a majority of L/H crew voted for an EBA, which opened the door for the LHR base, on the basis that it was recommended by our FAAA at the time and the scare tactics of the company.
S/H voted for their EBA based on similar recommendations.

Butterfield8

12th Oct 2006, 07:31

Twiggs YOU ARE WRONG.
EBAs have no jurisdiction in foreign ports.
Just as the FAAA has no jurisdiction in foreign ports.
Qantas was well within its rights to establish these bases and there was no legal challenge to be made.
Get your facts right...the EBA did not vote for these bases but rather limit their scope.
You my little friend are nothing more than "agent provocateur"

mostie

12th Oct 2006, 07:39

Butterfield8's last post is correct on all counts.

twiggs

12th Oct 2006, 07:44

So it was just a coincidence that the LHR base was set up to coincide with the expiration date of the foreign base cap?

Butterfield8, I was referring to EBA6 that removed the foreign base cap.

Butterfield8

12th Oct 2006, 07:50

Of course it wasnt a coincidence...it was the company's intention to have UNLIMITED size of their foreign bases.The FAAA thru' the EBA was able to have the expiration date of the cap extended.
You appear not to be very well informed.
Bone up on the facts before entering into a discussuion.

twiggs

12th Oct 2006, 08:04

Butterfield8,
I am referring only to voting for EBA6 which inserted an expiration date for the foreign base cap.
I am not referring to voting for EBA7 which was damage control.

Butterfield8

12th Oct 2006, 08:10

Twiggs
You are moving from one point to another and never really making a point or drawing a conclusion ...you a are now on my "ignore list".

TightSlot

12th Oct 2006, 08:26

Keep it cool guys - you are doing well so far, and thanks for that!

:cool:

lowerlobe

12th Oct 2006, 22:33

Thanks Tightslot for cooling this down a bit

As I have said before I think this forum gives us an opportunity to have a healthy debate on issues that affect all of our futures but some “agent provocateurs” here are only interested in rattling the cage and having the thread banned so let’s ignore the trouble makers.

On another matter has everyone noticed how our leader LG has been quiet of late? We used to see quite a lot of her when she first started but now it is quite the opposite.

It is also interesting to see on the CIS screen that the company would like L/H F/a’s and BFirst crew to take LSL on the next roster which covers the holiday season but not over the actual Christmas week or it will be directed…it seems as though as usual the company wants to have it’s Christmas cake and eat it too.

With the number of crew that took VR this is unusual in that with the extra flying that normally takes place over this period and more than 200 crew in these categories leaving that the company would have enough crew to meet the demand…..makes you wonder doesn’t it…

hawke eye

12th Oct 2006, 22:37

Twiggs,
I have to agree with the other guys,
there is a huge amount of resentment against either the short haul FAAA and or the S Haul crew members who voted to support the changes.

The changes being S Haul stopping long haul from getting the band payments if they transferred, the deafening silence from the S/H FAAA in supporting the LHaul FAAA in opposing the LHR base and S Haul jumping at the chance to take some of our flying when they saw what was happenning to their flying with J*

I do believe if we had to work with S Haul CSMs you are correct no one would knowingly cause trouble but I think the CSM would have to be very careful. There would be the potential for crew to dob at the first opportunity.
I have nothing agains S Haul CSMs myself but I have heard the dreadful stories that a lot - not all (and not those that transferred over from L Haul have allegedly changed the culture) rule with an iron fist. This feedback has come from ex S Haulers who have transferred across.

It might lighten some of those hard liners (if they exist) to lighten up , relax and unwind if they fly with longhaul crew:ok:

twiggs

13th Oct 2006, 02:14

I agree that there is some animosity toward the S/H union, but my point was that it is not directed specifically at the crew themselves. (and should not be)

I mentioned the EBA6 vote to demonstrate that L/H also voted in an EBA which had drastic consequences down the track, but unfortunately Butterfield8 got a bit emotional because I was misinterpreted as criticizing the vote for EBA7 and the debate got sidetracked.

RedTBar

13th Oct 2006, 02:49

Twiggs,

I think you should change your name to Robinson Crusoe as you are the only one following your line,let it rest

indamiddle

13th Oct 2006, 06:37

to upper deck cabin, training for csm/css crew from akl base began 3 weeks ago in melbourne.
400 more short haul mam casuals are on the way, training schools
begin 1 weeks time for beginning of new intake.
mgmt still taking expressions of interest from s/h crew re vr
cns qf crew now on manila run
looks like mgmt didn't get anywhere near enough senior crew to
take vr so expect another one in financial year 07/08 when more
compensation from a380 delay arrives
re mam intake, lots of mandarin/cantonese speakers, spoke to one
today seemed to think it was legal requirment for language speakers
to be on these trips...told her no legal minimum language speakers

speedbirdhouse

13th Oct 2006, 06:46

to upper deck cabin, training for csm/css crew from akl base began 3 weeks ago in melbourne.

Can anyone confirm........?

Alison Webster denied that QF had plans to do this less than three weeks ago.

Now that I think about it, her lips were moving. So it must have been a lie.

stubby jumbo

13th Oct 2006, 11:13

I'm priddy green when it comes to posting, though I have been a reader of pPrune for a while.
Can someone please explain where Twiggs is coming from?
Is he/she crew?
Is he/she a complany plant?
Is he/she just "having a piece of everyone"?
Trying to follow the logic is like listening to the 5th race at the Dapto Dishlickers!:rolleyes:

Anyway...........

I too heard the base mgr say that.. "there were NO plans to make-up CSM's for the AKL base". She said this when she was on a flight from SIN in Sep.

So now( like the pollies ) we will have the spin doctors come out and "rework" her statement to:" ......having CSM's in our AKL base will drive productivity and efficiencies that will ultimately ensure the long term survival of Qantas ".:{ :{

flitegirl

13th Oct 2006, 13:13

cns qf crew now on manila run

CNS QF crew on Manilla run from first week of december, provided JQ are granted approval for DPS.

lowerlobe

13th Oct 2006, 21:23

If half of these rumours are true and to be honest you have to take some of them with a grain of salt then our bid books in 18 months time will be very thin.

Let me see will I do a LHR trip...oops sorry I forgot the LHR base do all of those now.

Will I do a NRT..oops those S/H crew do them now..

Mmmmm No HNL trips anymore...

Well,there are JNB's and one LAX trip per day...I forgot the Mexican crew do the JFK/Dallas shuttles out LAX..

What the heck I'll bid for a SYD/MEL/ADL/PER/SIN ....slip 12 hours then back again the same way..

Sad isn't it when you work for a company for 30 years and all that loyalty is paid back with Darths brand of loyalty

The funny thing is that S/H used to mean domestic flying and now means any trip under 5 days...hang on that will be our flying in 18 months as well.

I can see Darths logic,he will offer us a life if we merge with S/H and accept their conditions and then after a year or two (maybe...probably less) he will say the same thing if we merge with J*and accept their conditions...Then re-spray the whole thing QF and bob's your uncle

stubby jumbo

14th Oct 2006, 02:55

Is it true that the JQ Cabin Manager training/conversion is 3 days in length-TOTAL.

Makes the Qf CSM training upgrade look like an MBA in comparison.

They are dream'in if they think they can ram thru a training class in that time ( if this rumour is INDEED true! ).

What about all the documentation stuff for the States, Leadership, Incident handling etc etc.??

I would not like to be a punter on board if one of their A-320's had to make a diversion say to.................Phnom Penh!!!!:eek:

At least you'll probably be able to but cheap Avgas there.

timos

14th Oct 2006, 03:41

I can see Darths logic,he will offer us a life if we merge with S/H and accept their conditions and then after a year or two (maybe...probably less) he will say the same thing if we merge with J*and accept their conditions...Then re-spray the whole thing QF and bob's your uncle
I have always had the sneaking suspicion that the blueprint and masterplan for change was to...
1. Lower the traditional Qantas cost structure by creating Jet* both (domestic and international).
2. At the right time, kill off the Jet* brand and rename it Qantas... (Similar to what happened with Australian Airlines albeit in guise of a wet lease). This ensures the Qantas brand survives.
3.Voila a brand new inexpensive Qantas emerges.

Everything transforms and nothing is created!

Pegasus747

14th Oct 2006, 05:06

let me claifify without equivocation that there is no training of AKL base CSM's and CSS's taking place at the moment.

Any training that is taking place is certainly not in the AKL base.

Whilst there is an agreement that facilitates the appointment of CSM's and CSS's in AKL it is my hope that any negotiations that take place between the FAAA and Qantas will negate the need for these appoinments.

The law does not allow any agreement with LH crew that would restrict Qantas from appointing AKL crew to these positions any more however if we are able to deliver some increased productivity we may be able to disuade QF from that course of action. A long shot perhaps...but in the current IR environment the only hope we have.

In fact any increased productivity for the LH division will undoubtedly swing some of our traditional flying back to long haul division. Other than that its the way of the dinosaur for us i am afraid.

But at this stage just be sure there is no training of AKL crew to CSM and CSS positions.

Call Alison Webster or Samantha Taranto for a direct answer. The other visitors wouldnt know if their collective asses were on fire

ditzyboy

14th Oct 2006, 07:21

Is it true that the JQ Cabin Manager training/conversion is 3 days in length-TOTAL.

JQ Domestic CM upgrade was something along those lines. Maybe 5 days? But they had nowhere near the authority or autonomy as CSMs at QF. They had greater resposnsibilities, some paperwork (occaisonal performance appraisal and the stressful disaster of an inflight sales program) and a supervisory role over being just a flight attendant but they couldn't make decisions that impacted the commercial operation or act on behalf of the company from a commercial point of view - ie. not able to 'comp' a lemonde unless directed by the Manager of Customer Service. Their role was much different to that of a QF CSM. Jetstar Domestic CMs whinge about the amount of paperwork they do (much of it useless or unnecessary but management has them do it anyway) though CSMs at QF do FAR more paperwork and have far greater levels of responsibility. Hence the difference in training programs.

I note Jetstar have entitled their international managers as CSMs. Does that mean a greater area or level of responsibility? Doesn't seem that way if payscales are anything to go by?!

CSMs at QF may be interested to note that FAs and MAM casuals have operated as CSM on occaison. Sends out an odd message from the company I think. Way of the future I guess... :rolleyes:

lowerlobe

14th Oct 2006, 09:33

Pegasus,

Can you expand on your statement

"Whilst there is an agreement that facilitates the appointment of CSM's and CSS's in AKL"

It has been my understanding as well as a number of others that the only base the company is allowed to appoint on board mangers is LHR.

If the faaa has given it's approval for the company to do this ,when was this done?

TightSlot

14th Oct 2006, 11:30

BUN-TOSSERS RULE has had 3 posts deleted because he/she is a brand new member who was too lazy to read the forum FAQ and the post by Danny about probationary membership posts, resulting in a triplicate post of the same text. A really promising start there BUN-TOSSERS RULE!

Pegasus747

14th Oct 2006, 11:32

The agreement i referred to is the one reached between Qantas and Jetconnect in NZ. THe agreement between the FAAA and Qantas that restricts promotional opportunities other than for the LHR base has been invalidated by the New IR laws that prohibit sucg restrictions.

Despite the agreement between QF and Jetconnect in NZ being reached there doesnt appear to be any indication that QF will move to appoint straight away.

All this info was provided in great detail at the recent FAAA meetings

BUN-TOSSERS RULE

14th Oct 2006, 12:49

My sincere apologies Tightslot :confused: . I did not read the post by DANNY :O

until after I tried to post my message :ugh: .......I thought my message was

not getting through because I was using a slow or bad connection.

SORRY :)

lowerlobe

14th Oct 2006, 20:43

Pegasus,
Thanks for your answer however it looked in your post as if you were saying that the faaa and QF had reached an agreement to allow the appointment of on board managers for the AKL base.I certainly did not hear that at the union meetings and it concerned me.

I don't understand that the new IR laws allow a current contract to be made redundant until the expiry of that contract however that is a moot point as the current EBA has only just over 12 months to run anyway and if you legally challenged that point in court the best you could expect would be to delay them .

I do agree with you however that unless we adapt we will go the way of the dinosaurs and if S/H can do it then so can we and get back our flying.

I personally don't have a problem with the company appointing CSS's and CSM's in other bases however they should rely on the same merit based selection process that we do.

If they do not and appoint them solely on whoever will do the job for the lowest price then it makes a mockery of all the statements the company has made.

We should then make it known to the press that if you are an Australian working for QF ("THe Spirit of Australia")you have to go through a merit based selection process for promotion. However if you are cheap overseas labour then you can get any job as long as you accept third world rates.

In other words the company selects the best person for the job in Australia but overseas will take anyone if they will work for peanuts.Explain to everyone this sort of sweatshop mentality and let the company explain that to the media when questioned ,Australian jobs going offshore at the moment is big news ...let's put the heat on them for a change

sydney s/h

14th Oct 2006, 22:44

MAM Casuals acting as CSM's??

I have never heard that one. Are you sure??

stubby jumbo

15th Oct 2006, 00:17

.......you bet'ya SYD -S/h .......its happened out of the PER base on more than one occasion.

However, to be fair they were usually ex-AN Cabin Managers.

QF doesn't really give a rats at the end of the day WHO stands up at Left -1.

As long as they have an ontime departure, the IFE works, meals are hot, punters get off happy..........SWEET!!;)

qcc2

15th Oct 2006, 00:40

ontime departure, ife works etc. you must work for some OTHER airline:}

qcc2

15th Oct 2006, 00:52

i agree qf would not be able to breach current contracts unless the faaa agrees to changes before the eba expires. as i mentioned before one of the big issues is that s/h has agreed to do 126 hours per 28 days.:ugh: i hear many already complaining about ALL that regional back to back with hardly any rest.
i certainly dont want to see 240 hours per roster in l/h and flying longrange most of the time. as for CSM selection i feel sorry for so many good aussie based css's who appear to loose out in this corporate stupidity.:=

lowerlobe

15th Oct 2006, 01:32

As I said before why don't we start making some noise about this.

The company goes to great lengths to tell one and all ..

That they are the spirit of Australia

The flying Kangaroo

etc etc......

They want to appeal to the loyalty of all Australians to spend their hard earned savings on flying Australia's international airline BUT...

They don't want to hire Australians or pay Australian rates of pay..that is unless of course you are on the board and even then the bonuses are almost obscene..

Let's tell the media that unless you move overseas or are foreign based crew then you have no prospect of promotion.

Let's tell the media how many foriegn crew J* international are going to hire...

Let's tell Australia how much Darth and his mates are earning while Australian employees are being told they will not fly the new A-380 because Darth will not pay Australian wages...Darth and his mate Johnny are trying to redefine the word "MATE" and we are letting them get away with it.

Let's put the spotlight on Darth and make him answer some questions

pinklemonae

15th Oct 2006, 02:14

^^^ I believe every Australian would be interested in this story.

DO IT!!

stubby jumbo

15th Oct 2006, 03:05

The QF Annual General Meeting is this week in SYD.
The media circus will be there in full force.

As shareholders we have right of entry.

Time to mobilise and ask a few questions of the Chairwoman et al.

Lets see them earn there bonuses now defending the whole sale sell off of the Australian worker.:ouch: :mad:

BUN-TOSSERS RULE

15th Oct 2006, 03:41

GD is telling Airbus to get their act into gear! ;)

:D I can hear it now.............It's incredulous that such delays can be occurring in their production process. It is very disappointing! Who's in charge? If I was at the helm at EADS, this wouldn't be happening. I say cut and slash the existing 55,000 strong work-force. If we can't co-ordinate the production process in the Dozen or so precision facilities around France, Germany and Spain, send as much as we can offshore, to the point that the A380 can still be called European .......to Asia ....better still AKL, I say.
What do you mean the Unions in Europe are strong? BLAH.... They told me that in Australia! We'll work around them. AWA's for all staff at all European Factories or should I say EWA's (European)......everyone on contracts, NO OVERTIME PAYMENTS, NO HOLIDAY PAYMENTS (Actually no holidays), NO LONG SEVICE LEAVE, NO BENEFITS whatsoever and most importantly pay everyone as little as possilble. Build in penalties if one is absent from work and also for failure to meet periodic production deadlines. We'll curb these cost overruns. Compensation from our workforce is only fair.
What do you mean they work a 35hour week! that's ridiculous......double it! ... and we'll be wanting massive increases in productivity!..... and be sure to remind them they are lucky to have a job.....or better still, if they don't like it ......just leave.
What do you mean we provide a fully catered lunch......slash that, they'll all be to busy to have lunch. Get rid of that 4-star lunch room facility with those comfortable tables and chairs. Absorb that space into our production area....they won't be needing that any longer. Space is money.
What do you mean we provide home transport after a 14 hour shift......slash that....they're lucky to have a job!....Duty of Care, HUH!
The Budget over-run......easy solution to recoup costs.....impose a delivery levy.

Its all quite simple you see......its really just a matter of telling the staff
" DO AS I SAY, NOT AS I DO!"........with the full backing of a Coalition Government. :D

mamslave

15th Oct 2006, 04:48

some contacts, if enough people write in I am sure they would jump at the story.

http://seven.com.au/todaytonight/contact_suggest

http://aca.ninemsn.com.au/feedback/default.aspx?formid=228

lowerlobe

15th Oct 2006, 05:08

Well....Pegasus ,or any other FAAA rep watching this thread ...what do you think?

If you are going to go into negotiations with the company you have to have some clout behind your argument.If you think the company is going to compromise with you because you are being nice to them then you might as well stay back at FAAA headquarters and play solitaire.

The company will only negotiate and compromise if they think they have something to gain or more importantly something they can lose.If they are being hassled in the media about their attitude to Australian employees then they will be on the back foot and will want to do something to stop media reports ...

In any case we (By that I mean cabin crew and their representing body the FAAA) do not have anything to lose by giving interviews on this subject.The company is continually giving us a hard time as well as other sections of their workforce so why don't we dish some of that back.

Darth is just like the old playground bully ,he is fine as long as everyone backs away but the moment someone stands up to him in public he wilts...come on Pegasus ,give it a shot

ozskipper

15th Oct 2006, 10:27

^^^ I believe every Australian would be interested in this story.

DO IT!!

Hmm, I'm not sure that the general population actually give a rats.... All the general public care about is whether they're going to get cheap fares or not.

I think the demise of Ansett highlighted that - admittedly there were other news stories at the time that took precedence, but really, with the introduction of Virgin and Jetstar, people just moved carriers and forgot about Ansett.

Whether we get renumerated according to what we have to do and whether we get promoted fairly won't be a big news story for most Aussies in my view. I'm not saying that it shouldn't be, but generally Aussies are fairly complacent and unless its going to directly affect them, then well look at why we have a Liberal Government.... :uhoh:

But in any event, I'm pretty sure there are some vocal London crew returning to Australia soon who would also want to contribute to a news story if it got up ;)

DEFCON4

15th Oct 2006, 10:39

The Crew returning to SYD would be best advised to keep a low profile for a long time :D

lowerlobe

15th Oct 2006, 10:41

ozskipper,

I know what you mean with the Australian mentality but in this case I think there is a difference.

Just about all Australians with the exception of the corporate sector and those in the business owners association are extremely worried about the ramifications of the new IR laws.

By highlighting the efforts the company is going to with these changes and the impact they will have on other jobs if QF is successfull a heck of a lot of people will listen.If enough people start asking questions then politicians start to think and you have started something.

The demise of Ansett was as you pointed out at a very turbulent time in the aviation business for a number of reasons and I think does not apply here.

We can this one of two ways....

We do nothing and ....If we do nothing and just approach the company and say well we could give you this and that ,we will get eaten alive by them.

We try to put the heat on the company and take the fight to them..

By doing nothing we will probably get nothing but if we try a few ideas maybe we will do a little better...what have we got to lose

stubby jumbo

15th Oct 2006, 11:14

I think the demise of Ansett highlighted that - admittedly there were other news stories at the time that took precedence, but really, with the introduction of Virgin and Jetstar, people just moved carriers and forgot about Ansett.

........other news stories that took precedence....what tha!!!:hmm:
Ozskipper...Me thinks you've been walking thru Strawberry Fields to come up with a statement like that one.

Sep 11 attack is THE BIGGEST news story of the 21st Century. It happened 3 days prior to the Ansett collapse.
Thats why the media was preoccupied!!!!!:ugh:

The ACE CARD for the media assault is our very own President of the FAAA. He is articulate, intelligent and when fired up is a sight to behold.

I agree with Lowerlobe.

We have nofing to lose.

Eden99

15th Oct 2006, 12:01

stubby are you referring to Reed or Mijatov?

ozskipper

15th Oct 2006, 16:51

........other news stories that took precedence....what tha!!!:hmm:
Ozskipper...Me thinks you've been walking thru Strawberry Fields to come up with a statement like that one.

Sep 11 attack is THE BIGGEST news story of the 21st Century. It happened 3 days prior to the Ansett collapse.
Thats why the media was preoccupied!!!!!:ugh:

Umm, with respect, I think you didn't quite get my post.

I'm painfully aware of the events before the Ansett collapse so I don't need any reminding as to what the media was covering thanks.

My point is that I don't think that the general public really cared that Ansett was gone (regardless of other preoccuping media stories), as long as there was an alternative that provided cheap air fares (its a personal view of course).

I'm not opposed to a media campaign - I'm just saying that historically Aussies are a complacent bunch unless it's really going to directly affect them.

Although, you raise a very salient point Lowelobe and I really hope you're right.

lowerlobe

15th Oct 2006, 20:51

ozskipper and stubby jumbo,

Although it is obvious that the FAAA cannot and will not announce any plans they have before they are enabled especially in a public forum ,I hope that they will at least tell us that they are considering these ideas.

A media campaign concept was raised at the meeting I was at and it looked as though it was a thought they would consider especially when the idea to move 300 more jobs to India was in the press

cartexchange

15th Oct 2006, 22:22

ozskipper....

you are correct in you comments about the Australian Publics view.

Look at the setup of Jet* and how that sent the lines crashing down in order to get a cheap ticket.

Cheap tickets is all they are after, then the Aussies will complain once they get on board.

The only thing that "may" upset the Australian public is the fact that we have not employed full time cabin crew in the long haul division for years, and then the only reason they would get upset is that this action may affect one of the employment prospects of their children.

As long as Australians get a long weekend and a dose of the footy on the weekend and they are able to live in their "dream" MCmansions they could not give a rats what happens to anyone Else's employment conditions.

twiggs

16th Oct 2006, 01:00

When the media get QF's side of the story, expect our usual remuneration figures to be quoted, those same figures that some who post on here are scared to even have posted.
GD's argument will be "their remuneration is generous and all we wanted was an increase in productivity, which they refuse to negotiate, so we have no other option".
While I do believe the public need to know what QF is doing, it is no different to what Joe Blow working in any major corporation is already experiencing except that no compulsory redundancies have occurred to date with us, meaning no-one has actually lost their job as QF CC because of it.
Arguing that someone may not being able to get a job as CC is not really something that will make a good news story, especially when unemployment in general is at an all time low.

lowerlobe

16th Oct 2006, 02:36

If the company wants to post pay figures then we can play that game as well. I am certainly not scared to have pay figures mentioned as long as we have a right of reply to show how absurd their pay and bonuses are.

Darth and the rest of the board have a lot more to be embarrassed about regarding remuneration than we do and we should be more than willing to point that out to every Joe Blow

I never said that we would not negotiate only that we have to put the heat back on the company or we will get nowhere in out negotiations. You can only negotiate from a position of strength and if you have no ammunition in your argument then the company will have you for breakfast.

Certainly there should be give and take in any negotiation but in Darths mind he only wants to take and have us do all the giving. Unfortunately there are some here that are more than willing to just roll over and give in just to keep their jobs and are embarrassed with their pay packets.

If some here think they are over paid then you are more than capable of signing your own AWA and negotiate your own T&C’s

As far as your argument regarding redundancy is concerned you must have a short term memory problem. The last redundancy offered might have been called VR by the company but was structured as CR for various reasons.

Additionally we can point out that although the company has and is hiring overseas crew for L/H they have not done so for quite some time in Australia and therefore Australians are losing jobs because they are going offshore and therefore the end result is the same as CR…so much for the spirit of Australia and that is certainly what Joe Blow is interested in hearing.

Only time will tell if the union is interested in this approach but there is one thing for sure and that the next 12 or so months will not be boring.

twiggs

16th Oct 2006, 04:51

According to the QF schedules, QF will be operating flights to Sapporo from MEL in Jan and Feb. (Not Jet* or AO)
A nice Xmas gift for some crew in S/H or L/H in MEL perhaps?

DEFCON4

16th Oct 2006, 05:11

7 Day Frankfurts.
Are these guys kidding.!?
The current CC News has a small note about how to prevent fatigue.
It doesnt mention building patterns with HUMAN factors built in. :confused:

twiggs

16th Oct 2006, 05:15

7 day FRA is only possible if paxing in one direction.

DEFCON4

16th Oct 2006, 06:04

Tell that bytch Carmen...she may not agree

RaverFlaver

16th Oct 2006, 13:07

I think the reason why LH / SH will be operating it is because they will be deploying the A330-300 on it. Not the 767. Otherwise, I'm sure they would have kept AO operating it.

RaverFlaver :)

RedTBar

16th Oct 2006, 20:57

RaverFlaver,

"I think the reason why LH / SH will be operating it is because they will be deploying the A330-300 on it. Not the 767. OTHERWISE,I'M SURE THEY WOULD HAVE KEPT AO OPERATING IT."

Just a little bit defensive and sensitive are you not?

Nobody suggested a reason for the change ,only that it was there!!! Darths divide and conquer tactic is obviously working well.

On that subject Twiggs and Defcon ,where did you get this info as I could not find the new patterns on the CC site as of yesterday arvo.

Lurker ,yeah your right and they will be also singing "I don't call Australia home" and throwing the meat pie away at the same time...and calling themselves the 'FLYING VINDALOO' instead of the 'FLYING KANGAROO'

DEFCON4

16th Oct 2006, 23:13

Have a look at your standing bids and then ring any QF travel centre for confirmation

RedTBar

16th Oct 2006, 23:42

DefCon,
Thanks for the info on the standing bids but I don't think a QF travel center would know what crew are operating the flights or that we do 7 day Fra's

flitegirl

17th Oct 2006, 00:21

Sapporo is being opperated by a 763 but not by AO. (even though the aircaft is routed MEL/CNS/CTS) The crew in Cairns thought it funny that they no longer operated the Singapore flights when it all changed to Qantas - now that route has gone to JQ. Is Qantas just "babysitting" the CTS route until JQI can take it over???:confused:

cartexchange

17th Oct 2006, 00:37

the FRA07 in our standing bids could also be for another base as the FRA 08 are still in there.
SO..................Mr Raver! how does it feel to see flying given over to another division!
Now you may have some sort of understanding what we feel about our work being dished out to the "others" that are willing to undercut us.
Can you finally realise what it feel like.
Can you now see why people used to and still do get upset on this forum about it.

twiggs

17th Oct 2006, 01:10

DefCon,
Thanks for the info on the standing bids but I don't think a QF travel center would know what crew are operating the flights or that we do 7 day Fra's

The QF travel centre will tell you whether AO or QF are operating the Sapporo flights.
That info can also be found on the QF website in the schedules section.

Don't get ahead of yourself guys and girls before any patterns are out.
Like I said, the only way they can give Aust base crew 7 day FRA trips is if we pax all the way to or from FRA, which is not a trip not many people would have a problem with.
They probably inserted that standing bid to use at a time when they need such a pattern.
The reason they would do so is not even worth speculating about now.

RedTBar

17th Oct 2006, 01:22

Twiggs,
The point I was trying to make is that the travel center might know whether the aircraft is operated by AO or QF but they would not know whether it is L/H or S/H Qf crew.

I don't know about you but I don't really go to the QF site for entertainment and check out schedules ,there are a lot of other web sites that are more interesting.

Quote "if we pax all the way to or from FRA, which is not a trip not many people would have a problem with"

As far as paxing to or from FRA or anywhere for that matter ,it depends on where you are sitting when paxing that is my concern.I would rather work than sit down at 60K.

Flitegirl,
I don't think we are babysitting anything until J* take over as it would be cheaper for AO to operate this sector or maybe it is because it originates in MEL and Carmen is just doing it this way.I learnt a long time ago it is a waste of time trying to see any logic in QF ops and most of the time if you find a logical and pragmatic solution then you take the complete opposite tact and that is what the company will do.

Mostie,I'm not sure but I don't think AO gets allowances in hand either but all I do know is that the beer and skiing is excellent up there.I wonder if that restaurant is still open that had all the red wine you could drink for 1000 yen MMMMmmmmmm

mostie

17th Oct 2006, 01:36

Mostie,I'm not sure but I don't think AO gets allowances in hand either

I'm almost certain that AO crew always got the same allowances as those of us at Longhaul.

Their EBA was negotiated by the Longhaul FAAA...........

ravaflava,

MNL is much the same as CTS isn't it ?

RedTBar

17th Oct 2006, 01:39

Raver..What was the pub you guys stayed at and did you guys know that restaurant?

DEFCON4

17th Oct 2006, 03:41

While a large component of SYD Domestic is ex LH they are outnumbered by the number of domestic crew in total.While most if not all ex LH crew would have have voted no to THAT EBA..they would not have had the numbers to vote it down.
Lets not start eating our own!!!
Let`s keep the passion,emotion and anger in check shall we?

DEFCON4

17th Oct 2006, 07:21

Looks like the mod has been busy.
Pity.
My last post(deleted),while lengthy,was clear succinct cogent and precise with not a lot of emotion.
I thought I abided by the rules.
Its not easy being Green.

TightSlot

17th Oct 2006, 08:36

There were a number of posts that were "reported" (yours was not one of them). The usual pattern is that various contributors report each other, and there is then a sequence of follow-up posts or messages protesting outraged innocence. Welcome to the playground.

Internecine squabbling over who is responsible for changed terms and conditions is both pointless and tedious - it is also impossible to prove who is correct.

There is a certain, awful fascination in watching you tear each other to shreds: Not content with taking on your own employer, union and occasionally customers you guys seem to delight in thumping each other across divisions and airlines. Were you to stop and stand back and then direct your energies to actually dealing with the real threat for once, then your industrial landscape might look rather different. To many outside observers, some of the things that are the most complained about and resisted in OZ aviation are things that not only already in use in large parts of the world, but are routinely operated by those reading the thread.

The QF Cabin Crew thread has been closed, deleted, moved and forum changed more than any other thread that I am aware of in PPRuNe history, and a large number of users have been banned - and still the penny hasn't dropped that this kind of behaviour is not acceptable.

In the meantime, I'll refer you to the forum FAQ (first thread) where you'll find a link to the moderating philosophy (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1585962#post1585962) of this forum, with further explanation by Danny. I cannot recommend too strongly that you read and remember it.

mostie

17th Oct 2006, 08:52

Looks like the mod has been busy.
Pity.
My last post(deleted),while lengthy,was clear succinct cogent and precise with not a lot of emotion.

None of the posts were overly emotive if subjected to the "reasonable person" test........

TightSlot

17th Oct 2006, 08:59

QED my last post mostie - possibly you would have been well advised to read the guidelines in the link above, and then try to think about them before posting again - you are skating on very thin ice at the moment.

sydney s/h

17th Oct 2006, 09:08

I know there's mainly LHaulers on here, but has anyone heard word how many SH CSM's they are taking in the latest recruitment?

And.. when are the SH VR numbers being announced?

DEFCON4

17th Oct 2006, 10:35

The reasons for all this slanging and thumping are historical.
Qantas international would have gone the way of Pan Am without a domestic feeder network.
It was decided that QF was to buy/merge with Australian Airlines(TAA).
On an employee level..particularly CC not a lot of merging was done..different awards,different aircraft..different culture.
It proved too difficult for two CEOs..Pemberton and Strong.
Had someone bitten the bullet the animosity that exists now would have died in a month.
The industrial relations officer for the domestic union left the longhaul union under a cloud..he carries a grudge.
Mix all the ingredients together and voila.
There aren`t too many places to vent your spleen.
Unforunately for PPrUNE
So you have all this anger, emotion disinformation and misinformation.
But all of this also reflects the toxic work environment that Qantas management have created.
Having spent considerable time on the ground over the years I know we have it good compared to the poor groundhogs that work "in the office".
So for me I just wait til the front door closes forget all the nonsense and do my job the best I know how.
Even so I know that my days are numbered..Sad, but a fact.
In many ways its unjust and totally unfair.
I(and thousands like me) have busted my butt for most of my adult life to create the reputation that QF once enjoyed.
I used to be proud to say that I worked for Qantas..not anymore.
The trough feeding at the top is the thing that makes me most angry.Its obscene what these individuals earn while grinding their employees into the ground.
I dont know of another airline that treats ALL their employees in such a careless cavalier manner.
Change is inevitable..it is the way that it is managed which makes it palatable or NOT.
At Qantas it is managed with all the subtlety and finesse of a train wreck