QANTAS - Australia

[RedTBar]

Stubby,
I think this was mentioned at the union meetings,well the one that I was at anyway.It would be possible then for both parties to have a win as you put it but the problem is that the company might have an agenda that precludes such an agreement.

We will have to wait and see I guess..

[Guardian1]

stubby, as Red T Bar said, the FAAA at it's meetings is exactly recommending this. I presume you actually have attended a meeting or you have spoken to someone who has.

On another note, the conclusion of the agreement over the Bonaventure hotel, the LAX allowances and the hotel inspection process by the FAAA and Qantas has proved to be another correct decision by the FAAA.

Qantas has just announced that it will provide the pilots a breakfast in LAX, LHR and Singapore rather than paying them an allowance. This is in retaliation to the pilots continuing to argue over allowance matters.


So while cabin crew continue to be paid allowances overseas, QANTAS has decided to play tough with the pilots.

[Daffy_Duck]

Qantas is operating flights to Sapporo next roster and maybe till March 2007. These flights will manned by LH not SH. I am kiwi based crew (don't hate me) and I know that the slips are quite long, up to 96hrs. It also looks like it is the 767's that are going up there.

Guys, even though your bid book is not out you can still look at the patterns for the next roster using CIS. Go to crew list and click on the pattern details icon, enter patterns that you are currently doing now and see what pops up. You must make sure that the bid period is for the next one- in this case bid period 248. Carmen usually has the patterns for the next roster all ready proceessed around two weeks from the start of the current roster starts. Hope this helps people.

[Butterfield8]

The company has been playing around withh allowances into NRT of late.
Could this be the beginning of a trend?

[RedTBar]

I realise that I am an optimist but wouldn't it be great to be able to rock up for work ,do your job and go home without any grief.

Even if we are able to get an agreement with the company for another 3 years, someone somewhere will want to mess it up..

[RedTBar]

On a serious note..if thats possible.I'm actually surprised that GD has not opened a base for crew in India.I'm sure the Indian Government would love the idea of more hard currency and the cost of crew there would make the annual cost of the AKL base seem exorbitant.

Maybe even bring back the LHR via BOM service again ,imagine the advertising "The spirit of Australia" starts again on the Vindaloo route...maybe I could get a commission on the savings if the idea is taken up,mmmmmmm I wonder if GD reads pprune

[RedTBar]

Cattle-class takes off
The Bulletin
Tuesday, October 10, 2006


Qantas offshoot Jetstar is now offering cattle-class on overseas routes. Get used to it. Qantas believes it is the future of overseas air travel. Giles Parkinson and Nick Tabakoff report.
When Jetstar launches its services into Asia next month, passengers will have to adjust to a totally new international flight mindset. They will have to pay if they want a meal ($17 for the one-meal flight to Bali; $25 for the two-meal haul to Bangkok and beyond), for inflight entertainment ($10 per sector for video on demand), and for a pillow and blanket. The airline's website mentions the features of the economy-class cabin. The spiel is brief: apart from the presence of a water fountain, there is not much to say.

"Everyone wants high service and low cost, but they can't have it," says JP Morgan analyst Matthew Crowe, noting the industry's losses of recent years. "But if you offer them low cost and low service, they will always pick that."

The nature of the international inflight experience is in the midst of its biggest transformation since the Boeing 747 was introduced. The launch of the new "super jumbo", Airbus's A380, was accompanied by promises of creches, sleeper cabins, double beds, cocktail lounges, casinos, and even a small gym. But while much of the media focus has been on luxury flying, and the space age benefits of new aircraft - like the A380 and Boeing's 787 Dreamliner - the real story is at the other end of the market. Put plainly, it is the issue of bums on seats. And the new generation of aircraft are designed for volume traffic: in the case of the "super jumbo", 800 passengers per flight.

Australians have been introduced to the low-cost flight experience domestically over the last couple of years through Virgin Blue, and the no-frills service that is offered by both it and the Qantas subsidiary Jetstar.

The budget carriers have been generally embraced by a budget-conscious travelling public. After all, most people can stomach an hour or two in a plane without food and drink and sitting in a 77.5cm by 52.5cm rectangular space for a few $20 notes. The figures bear this out: passengers carried by Jetstar alone have grown by 30% in the past year: from 4.38 million in 2004-05 to 5.8 million in 2005-06.

But will they be as ready to accept such discomfort on long-haul international flights: for example, a nine-hour flight to Japan? And how will they deal with decisions like: "Do we bring our own packed lunch?" or "Should we fork out $7 for Jetstar's 'comfort pack?'" (the latter includes a pillow, blanket and small personal items)?"

Ian Thomas, an analyst with the Centre for Asia Pacific Aviation, admits to some doubts. "People travelling on international flights take it for granted the services they receive will be included in the fare price. With Jetstar, that's not the case. I have a feeling there'll be some teething problems with market acceptance, particularly with inbound markets, but also some outbound markets as well."

He cites family travel as an example: "Imagine a family of four wanting blankets and wanting food. You add up the extras that will amount to."

The introduction of Jetstar in 2004 has been one of the most momentous developments in Qantas' 86-year history. In the past 12 months, Jetstar contributed pre-tax earnings of just $11m out of Qantas' total pre-tax earnings of $671m, but its true benefits to its parent may not be effectively measured on a profit and loss statement.

In an interview with TheBulletin, Qantas CEO Geoff Dixon says that Jetstar's much leaner cost base ensures that the budget carrier has an assured future in a way that a full-service carrier like Qantas does not. The reason is that Jetstar is able to hire staff at much lower cost.

Qantas has inherited Australian expectations and strong unions: meaning one of the few options it has had to lower costs has been to shed jobs. "Jetstar has an enviable cost base, it really has," Dixon says. "The fact we have set it up with such a good cost base ensures it its future."

He makes it clear he sees the outlook as more clouded for the full-service carrier. "One thing that is not possible for Qantas is to stand still," he says. "It will need to evolve, change, continue to take costs out and do things differently. Qantas is making what people regard as a lot of money. But it will need to change, or others will take over."

Jetstar's contribution to the company has been significant - through its ability to effectively shut the door to new competitors, corralling the opportunities of its one and only domestic rival, Virgin Blue, and for offering the opportunity to tackle staff wages - the biggest single cost after soaring jet fuel. "It's given them leverage against Virgin Blue and created options for reducing costs," notes Macquarie Equities analyst Paul Huxford. "They've done this pretty successfully and very quickly."

While Jetstar is a "new" airline, it is one over which Qantas has complete control. Similar past precedents had failed: British Airways, for example, had tried to do the same with the budget carrier Go, but it found that its new subsidiary cannibalised its most profitable routes. It was a disaster that nearly bankrupted the parent. But with Jetstar, it is Qantas which decides which routes it can fly and when.

This way, Qantas has been able to protect its "golden triangle" - the highly lucrative business market that links Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane - while attracting much of the bottom end of the market away from Virgin Blue. Because of its low cost structure, it has been able to transform loss-making routes such as the Gold Coast into profitable ventures.

Already, Jetstar accounts for more than a quarter of all domestic passengers carried by Qantas. Within four years, Dixon says, once it has taken delivery of 15 B787 Dreamliners, it is expected to account for more than 22% of the Qantas group's international passengers as well.

JP Morgan's Crowe says Qantas will face a bigger challenge with Jetstar International, because overseas routes are less easy to define as either "business" or "leisure". In its initial stages, Jetstar is deliberately targeting the "outward bound" market - essentially Australians going to and from their favoured holiday destinations such as Bali, Thailand, Hawaii and Vietnam - but the launch of routes to Osaka next March will be the first test of a new brand in the highly competitive and brand-conscious inbound market.

Thomas believes taking the short-haul product and trying to adapt it to international routes is the biggest challenge for the airline, as is the potential substitution of Qantas routes with Jetstar. "Tasmanians didn't like it when Jetstar took over many of their routes; imagine what the rest of the world would think." Will there be a rebellion against the low-cost model for international flights: either through people avoiding flights or bringing picnics on board? Thomas thinks not, suggesting airlines and passengers will reach a happy medium: "They want to encourage you to buy the onboard stuff. Planes aren't built for picnics."

Some analysts warn against going overboard with the low-cost model in Asia. Peter Negline, analyst at JP Morgan's Hong Kong office, says: "If you understand the Asian psychology, there is a certain part of the population that will want to pay premium." He notes that low-cost airlines have not been as dominant in Asia as they had in Europe.

There is talk that Jetstar might one day be spun off by Qantas. Thomas is doubtful that such a move would occur, at least anytime soon, noting that Jetstar is effectively subsidised by its parent through insurance, hedging and the purchase of group items such as planes. Analysts also note that any sale could also mean that Qantas is able to exercise less control over the routes that Jetstar flies.

Qantas CFO Peter Gregg said in a speech earlier this year that Jetstar had "challenged many of the assumptions we might once have held about the way we do business". Might Jetstar one day become the dominant brand for the airline, leaving Qantas as a signature premium brand on traditional routes to London, the US and between Australia's major cities?

Dixon hints that anything is possible: "Qantas has no inherent right to longevity. It's got to get its cost structure right, and make sure it continues to compete in an industry with a level playing field." He points to his industry's uncertainties: "I don't think anyone can predict the future of aviation. Would anyone have thought 20 years ago Pan Am and TWA would no longer be with us?"

Because of the tenuousness of airlines, Dixon is unapologetic about his tough approach to costs and regulation. "I want to leave it just as a viable company. I have a very good management team. They're all 10 years or more younger than I am. I don't think any of them have any illusions about what they'll have to continue to do.

"No company will survive in any industry unless you've got your costs right. Everything's so global - you'll have to compete on a vast playing field."

Crowe says the outlook for Qantas is as good as it has been for several years. It remains one of the most profitable airlines in the world. The arrival of the B787 Dreamliners - built of composite materials and therefore lighter, stronger and more fuel-efficient - will result in lower costs. Dixon estimates they will be 25% lower than for other planes.

Even the delays in the delivery of A380s announced by Airbus last week (Qantas was due to get 12 with options over another dozen) is not altogether bad news for the airline's shareholders. It will mean most airlines who committed to the new aircraft will be struggling to meet passenger demand in two to three years' time. Crowe suggests we might be queuing for a seat. In analyst talk, that creates a "strong yield environment".

For the rest of us, it means higher air fares, and a longer queue at the water fountain.

[speedbirdhouse]

Dixon and his cronies are deluded fools.

How on earth are they going to get jetscar international's cost base below that of the developing countries flag carriers?????

Why would anyone in their right mind get excited at the prospect of buying the basics such as food, drink, pillows and blankets on jetscar when they have the option of FULL SERVICE offerings from airlines like Thai, Malaysian and the like for much the same price ?

Not to mention the cultural reasons why the majority of our "status conscious" Asian neighbours wouldn't be seen dead flying on a bugdet carrier.

The board are fools for allowing dixon free reign with Qantas's profits to chase the price sensitive, low yield, backpacker market.

I just hope that dixon's ego driven folly wont end up being Qantas's downfall.........

[mostie]

The board are fools for allowing dixon free reign with Qantas's profits to chase the price sensitive, low yield, backpacker market.


With Emirates lobbying to double their access into Australia from 42 flights a week offering 22 one stop European destinations and Singapore Airlines about to completely revamp their J/C and P/C cabins together with the introduction of 1000 channel 5th generation VOD entertainment system where does that leave Qantas??

Unreliable 2nd generation AVOD on SOME aircraft. Shabby, clapped out P/C cabins and NO long term strategy.......

Just the same old, same old. Maximize short term profits to secure executive bonuses together with QF's reputation as the worlds most profitable airline and to hell with the future.:ugh:

Staff with any shares might be well served to sell them now.

[stubby jumbo]

Quote: "Because of the tenuousness of airlines, Dixon is unapologetic about his tough approach to costs and regulation. "I want to leave it just as a viable company. I have a very good management team. They're all 10 years or more younger than I am. I don't think any of them have any illusions about what they'll have to continue to do."

After trawling my way thru this article the reality again hit me that this current management team do not give a toss for their PEOPLE.

Not once is there any where in this article -a mention of the people adapting to change to help build and grow this airline.
The ONLY mention is the management team.:ugh: :ugh:

Its all about the numbers, the dollars.

One day ( soon ) this is all going to bite someone on the the bit that attaches to a seat.

Agree..........time to cash in your shares-Xmas is coming!!

[Lurker@L5]

Dixon: "Qantas has no inherent right to longevity"

Until I read this I never really knew what a death knell sounded like.

[RedTBar]

This is the part of the story that I find interesting..

"The introduction of Jetstar in 2004 has been one of the most momentous developments in Qantas' 86-year history. In the past 12 months, Jetstar contributed pre-tax earnings of just $11m out of Qantas' total pre-tax earnings of $671m, but its true benefits to its parent may not be effectively measured on a profit and loss statement.

In an interview with TheBulletin, Qantas CEO Geoff Dixon says that Jetstar's much leaner cost base ensures that the budget carrier has an assured future in a way that a full-service carrier like Qantas does not. The reason is that Jetstar is able to hire staff at much lower cost."

This quote shows basically one thing...

Jetstar is not about profit for the group in fact the story admits that J* only contributed to $11 million from a total of $671 million which is not even 2%.

J* is not about better service for the traveller ,they even have to pay for a blanket and pillow let alone food

J* is not about providing cheaper affordable travel for the public because after the specials are gone the normal fares are not different from full service airlines

J* is only about cheap labour and destroying the unions as well as the pay and conditions of the employee and if that is not to help the bottom line (as it is only delivering 1.6% of total profit) who benefits from this.....just the few at the top in the way of bonuses

[sydney s/h]

I cant believe Dixhead said that we have no inherent right to longevity. He is a disgrace.

On a different note...

I do alot of Tasmans. We usually take over one of the re-configed ex AO aircraft. On those a/c we have no individual in-seat videos for the J/C pax. So, we hand out these crappy dvd players (they were loading 12-16 dvd players for 30pax) and all this for 2hr 40min flight time.

So the problem is that these J/C pax want their movie pretty early on (and they need to get it asap to get the movie finished in time for top of descent) and they place the dvd on their meal tray - thats fine until its time for lunch. Then they have no where to put the player unless there is only one person per double then they can place it on the middle armrest area.

Anyway...i know im crapping on abit but when these business men look at you and ask why QF are putting on old domestic aircraft on an international route what answer is there?!? And they say that they should have flown Emerates with their far superior product!

And i am constantly told by QF that the Tasman route is super competitive and we need to give great service on it etc etc...

I can give all the "soft" product service till the cows come home... its our old, tired out "hard" product that is letting us down.

Now the 767's are going back into HKG etc that will really please the punters! Especially when they fly up there on a skybed and come home on an old J/C chair.

[sebby]

Sydney S/H - hmmm, at least that seat has a foot and leg rest! lol try convincing someone on a 737 - 400 that this wont be the standard forever, just while the aircraft shortage is sorted. If EKs schedule wasnt so bad for our FF i cant imagine how often the J/C cabin woukd be close to empty accross the tasman. Dissappointing ey. :ugh:

[lowerlobe]

This situation with the "old aircraft and equipment" syndrome is nothing new.

For those in L/H you will remember the 300's operating the NRT runs where the customer is very choosey ( we were told this repeatedly) and the company did nothing about it.They should have been in a museum then and they are still running them now as long as the spare parts supply in Avalon holds out.

Then we have "NLH"...a real beauty leased from BA that had to be spread around the network because it upset so many pax and not just those in J/C.

We also have the other leased 76's from BA as well and aren't they great to work on.

I reckon if they could lease John Travolta's 707 for a cheap enough price they would.

The bottom line as the previous posts point out is the dollar and crew and the customer are not in the equation

[qcc2]

Don,t you love DAME Margrets comments at the AGM

We invest in developing our people, spending more than $280 million
a year on training and related costs;
· Injury rates have been reduced by 75 percent since 2001;
· On average, Qantas staff earn 50 percent more than average Australian
employees, and enjoy very generous conditions.

And Qantas staff are committed to the company in return. Attrition is less

than 1 percent for long haul flight attendants, 1.2 percent for short haul

flight attendants and 1.4 percent for long haul pilots. That compares with

a median of 9.4 percent for Australian companies!

Somewhat she forget to mention the overseas bases and VR.
media spin:ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

[Pegasus747]

I wonder if the DAME has chosen to selectively forget the 1400 long Haul crew who have (left) been made redundant since 2001...perhaps the word attrition has a different meaning in the DAMES lexicon

[Lurker@L5]

The disease, the canker, the cancer within the heart of Qantas is that CEO Geoff Dixon views his 39,000 employees as - THE ENEMY.

This is no way to run a company.

[speedbirdhouse]

This is no way to run a company.

Correct.

However it is the only way that he knows........

How much was it that jetscar contributed to the overall group profits last year?

AUD $11 Million wasn't it ???

[stubby jumbo]

................the way the whole AGM was run was ....sheer genius.

Take a bow K.B.

It was structured so that the Executives "Remunerations & Benefit" bit was squuezed in to a tight agenda right at the end and sandwiched between some lame questions from shareholders ( including Jack).

Result= all bonuses paid for the financial year, all share bonuses paid.

ALL HAPPY ..... ie :) - Directors, Exco, Senior Exec Managers,Managers that is 600 of the total number of staff .

The rest ( currently at 36,856 :{ :{ :{ .....left with the scraps)

Reading the press today, .......the media are happy, the share holders are happy, the financial institutions are happy.

But alas..........the staff continue to :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

Economic rationalism................whooo hoooooooo

[cart_elevator]

Interesting to see there now appears to be more domestic patterns for the MEL longhaul cabin crew, than international patterns.

With the advent of CNS & SYD overnights, combined with the continuing PER shuttles. The NRTs have completely gone. With all the AKL crew doin the LAX trips, will never see one of them again. I aint there yet, but it would seem that if you are junior in the base, all you will get is domestic flying without the band payments. Ah well, at least no crappy hot chocolate service.

[Bad Adventures]

Yes I noticed that Cart. I’d say this is a possible prelude to the closure of the Melbourne longhaul base as this is precisely what happened with the Perth base. On another note rumor has it that the company wants a 5 year EBA with Australian based crew doing 240 hours for the same money, or take a 25% pay cut to continue flying the existing hours. Can anybody else shed any further light on this?

[RedTBar]

What would be the possibility that the board including GD telling us that they are taking a 25 % pay cut to help ensure the viability and sustainability of the company .

I certainly would not be holding my breath waiting for that one.

[qcc2]

"Il Duce" went from 1.8 to 3.2 million:yuk: last FY. i want my percentage increase too!!!
Why does QF want to renegotiate the LH EBA sooner then later. in my humble opinion, they know the politicial landscape is going to change at next years election. the senate is more then likely to return to a split between the parties which means whoever is in power has to do a lot more negotiating then at present. unions will get more access to the powers (as this is currently not the case:{ ), which will not always favour big business. any other thoughts for an earlier EBA?

[DEFCON4]

Dixon can start the negotiations early but they dont necessarily have to conclude early.
Negotiations can take a year or more.
Its a matter of who blinks first.
Let the games begin.

[qcc2]

my sources (have had a reasonable history) tell me that by 2010 J* INT.will be flying to rome/ paris/ frankfurt and 1 more destination in europa. that means oz based qf lh crew will be going as far as singapore/bangkok/hongkong.:ugh:
any promises qf management makes forget it. :ugh: :ugh:

[RedTBar]

This is of course what they would dearly like and it relies on one basic point and that is that J* International has to be a success.

It could be that it is a big winner for the company however flying on a LCC for a few hours is one thing but flying that way for nearly 24 hours is another thing altogether.

You can eat up big time before you fly and take a few drink bottles with you as well as a blanket and pillow on a flight to BKK or even HNL but try that on a flight to Europe and it is another matter especially if you have kids.Their PSP's and so on can only last so long on their internal batteries.

The funny thing is that J* has only contributed $11 million or 1.6% to group profit.If you had poured the money required to start up J* into the QF product and made it better the company would have probably made more than the J* profit.Obviously then the entire idea of J* is not to make a decent profit but to lower employees wages and conditions.

As anyone who has checked in and flown with J* will tell you you can see the lack of enthusiasm on the staff's faces.Doing this for an hour or so is one thing but for nearly 24 hours ,NO THANKS

[qcc2]

with your assessment tbar. in addition as competitors like SQ/EK/CP upgrade their product (check out the latest CP/SQ product, it is bloody amazing). for about the same money you will get a third rate product on J* Int. whoever has to pick up the pieces after GD & company leaves has an even harder assignment and of course the staff has to pay for it.:ugh:

[stubby jumbo]

As far as I can ascertain on the Net , there is no other LCC that is a "long haul "( sectors more than 6 hrs ) carrier.

You guys are so right.

There is a big difference between jumping on a JQ flight to Maroochy say compared to HNL.

What about "crew rest" on a 10 hr night sector. ....option #1 =Jump seats. .....option#2= the Loo ( Toilet seat down with a pillow on top).

My view is that the punters will not tolerate the Franklins approach to flying ( crap everywhere, aisles blocked , tacky products and staff that would prefer to be at home watching Oprah!!):rolleyes:

Anyway, time will tell.

GD may still have the last laugh. His luck has held him in good stead so far.

Qantas........"The luckiest airline in the World":hmm: :hmm: :hmm:


.............oh and one other thing .

Is any one else tired of hearing the term: Qantas is a Legacy airline

Come on spin team.......time to move onto a new phrase to throw in our faces to justify the dire position we are in.

[lowerlobe]

Personally I would like the faaa to publish the demands made by the company and any letters the company see's fit to send to the union.

There is nothing confidential about a letter that LG has sent the union telling them that L/H is too expensive.If she has sent that letter then why not publish it?

If the company tells the faaa or sends it a letter demanding that we work 210 ,220 ,230,or however many hours a roster.if the company wants to change the allowances or overtime structure then why not publish them on the faaa website.

If the company has decided that this is what they want then show us the letter or inform us of the discussion.

The faaa decided to call a series of meetings because they decided that the situation warranted some action and at these meetings they read out part of a letter from LG and mentioned other matters.If these can be mentioned at meetings why cannot they be published.

There are far too many rumours circulating in our job because we do not work in an office enviroment and we are away from our base.Wouldn't it be refreshing to see some honesty and transparency in the negotiations between the faaa and the company.What has the faaa to lose by publishing a letter and demands by the company to stop these rumours.

Certainly the faaa should not publish any plans or intentions they may have but they should not have any problems with letting the membership know what the company is up to.Similarly the company should not have any problems with this information becoming public if they deem it important enough to demand in negotiations.

For any faaa officials here ,do not patronise us with any BS about secret industrial negotiations because we get enough BS from the company .The latest being the letter from MB telling/asking us to be pro-active in taking LSL.In other words take your LSL or we will force you to!!!

FAAA come on ,tell us what is happening and not just at a few meetings , keep the information and the momentum going

[qcc2]

research other cabin crews wages and conditions
research Qf cabin crew managements conditions & bonuses over the last few years
educate the public about the real issues, not the bu******t GD & Dame Margret put out at the AGM:ugh:

[twiggs]

As far as I can ascertain on the Net , there is no other LCC that is a "long haul "( sectors more than 6 hrs ) carrier.
[/COLOR]

Just saw on the news, OASIS Hong kong was unable to operate a flight to LGW due to being denied clearance over Russian airspace.
Fares quoted as being as low as USD$128.

[lowerlobe]

Oasis has not flown yet and this is the third delay on it’s inaugural flight but there are 2 points here.

1: Oasis has not yet flown and it will be sometime before it is known whether it will be a success or not as is the case with J* international .Remember J* Asia is based in Asia as is Oasis and has been a resounding flop.

2: Even the flight from HKG to LGW is only 11 to 12 hours and a single sector. The flight from Sydney to Europe as a possible destination for J* international is a lot further and is a multi sector trip. This makes it a vastly different proposition to flying a LCC on single sectors even around the 11 or 12 hour length.

We will have to wait for a while yet before we can see how the dice has rolled

As qcc has mentioned why don't we (faaa ) publish or state in an interview the pay and conditions and bonus's that our company gets compared to other carriers management and as I have asked publish the demands and other letters that the company sends to the union.This would put an end to the usual rumour mill and give all crew an idea of where we stand.

To the faaa response team that reads this forum don't tell us to ring the union office because then other crew are hearing the facts 2nd or 4th hand and only helps the rumour factory BS and the poor switchboard at the faaa bunker could not cope with 3 thousand or so phone calls.Let us know what the company is up to through you instead of galley gossip

[qcc2]

should work. it has lots of money behind the company. they want to break even within 18 month. the difference to J* Int. is that they fly (going to build their network) between high volume city pairs. very different market then end destinations like oz. in addition they will get easier access to many more destinations at high volume markets then oz based carriers.:*
also there is food, entertainment and a blanket included in the price

[cartexchange]

juat appeared on the crew website

ATTENTION ALL SHORT HAUL CUSTOMER
SERVICE MANAGERS
SHORTHAUL TO LONGHAUL DIVISIONAL TRANSFERS
EFFECTIVE THE 15TH JANUARY 2007.
Applications are now open for 7 Shorthaul Customer Service Managers to transfer
to the Melbourne Longhaul Division within Category.
Applications will be awarded in Strict Seniority order and must be signed by your Base Management
Team.
CONDITIONS
• All Customer Service Managers must have completed a minimum of two (2) years service in their current category
before their transfer application will be accepted.
• This allocation will not be actioned from any current waitlists, therefore if you are on a current divisional
transfer waitlist and you wish to transfer to the Longhaul Division in Category you will still need to send in an
application.
Applications will close on Friday 17th November, 2006 at 1700.
The Allocation will take place on Monday the 20th November, 2006 and a Notice will be published by Tuesday the 21st
November to advise crew of the awarded positions. Following the Notice, individual letters will be forwarded to these crew
members advising them of further details regarding the Course.
Training is planned to commence on the 15th January, 2007 with a planned Online date of the 22January, 2007.

what's going on here......... anyone care to enlighten us..

[surfside6]

7 LH CSM in Perth were given the opportunity to transfer to SH when the LH base closed.
A proviso was 7(one for one)SH Pursers could transfer to LH in Category.
This proviso is now being enacted.
Nothing mysterious or secretive.
It was, and is, an agreed protocol of which everyone was informed.
It is for MEL only

[stubby jumbo]

Agree ..........it was and still is a fair decision considering how the Perth Base was treated.:mad: :mad:

What worries me now though is that the MEL base is going the same way.

Their pattern books are a shocker!

Hardly any LA's, few SIN and HKG's, the rest SYD, CNS and .........you guessed it PER returns.

This is EXACTLY what happened during the lead up to the demise of the Perth base........I'm sorry to say.

There are ex PER guys who transferred to MEL only to be now doing PER returns. How shat off would you feel to be taking off, flying for 4.40 mins , arriving in your "home base" then transit....operate back to MEL then commute back to PER.!!

Yeah sure , before everyone gets on and says it all about "choice" ( that C-word again!!!! ) But when will the bean counters make up their minds post Carmen and decide the Bases are going to stay or NOT !!!!.

seems to me the ONLY bases QF sees as being viable are OFFSHORE BASES.:{ :{

[lowerlobe]

I find it interesting that our share price has gone as high as it has in the last week.

Maybe the general public has bought the PR campaign that was put up at the AGM.

[twiggs]

I would say it is premature to make any assumptions about the future of the MEL base based on the flying in the present and next roster.

All flying in all bases is going to be abnormal until the dust settles from the VR departures.

The main difference between PER and MEL is that there is going to be frequent long range 744 flying out of MEL for the foreseeable future, and that was probably the main reason the base was set up in the first place.

[sydney s/h]

Hey surfside - whats the training a SH Purser has to do to become a LH CSM. When i did my upgrade training im pretty sure it was a CSM course not a "purser" course.

And dont tell me its a LH thing. We fly to more international destinations than you do.

[surfside6]

...more jetlag and less pay....very clever.
The difference between a domestic purser and a longhaul CSM..you mean you don`t know?

[lowerlobe]

On October 29, Qantas Airways announced that it had placed firm orders for eight more Airbus A380s, the world's largest passenger aircraft.

The Chief Executive Officer of Qantas, Mr Geoff Dixon, said the order increased the airline's commitment to the A380 to 20 aircraft, to be delivered between August 2008 and 2015.

Mr Dixon said the A380 was clearly the most suitable aircraft for Qantas to deploy on dense longhaul routes from Australia to the United States, the United Kingdom, Continental Europe and possibly the Middle East.

"Our decision to increase our order has been made after an extensive review of the recent problems at Airbus and the delivery schedule delays of the A380.

"We are convinced that these problems relate to industrialisation issues at Airbus and will be remedied, and in no way relate to the technical capacity of the A380.

"The A380 has breakthrough technology and everything we have seen reinforces our view that it is the best available aircraft for Qantas.

"It will provide unprecedented comfort and space, as well as meeting our payload and range requirements."

Mr Dixon said Qantas had made an original order for 12 A380s with options for a further 12 aircraft in 2000.

"We have negotiated an attractive 'package' to firm up an additional eight A380s. The package also includes an additional four A330-200 aircraft which will help Qantas mitigate capacity concerns associated with the delay of the airline's first A380s.

"The four A330-200s will be delivered between December 2007 and December 2008."

Mr Dixon said the terms of the new contract provided, among other things, protection against any further delay in the A380 delivery schedule and slide rights in the event of changed circumstances.

He said the Qantas Board believed the new aircraft order gave the Qantas Group long term certainty of supply of the world's most up to date aircraft.

"In parallel with the A380 order, we have a contract with Boeing for the supply from 2008 of up to 115 B787 new generation aircraft, which also have the very latest technology for aircraft in the 300 seater range.

"The Boeing 787 and the Airbus A380 both have up to 20 per cent lower operating costs than existing aircraft and will form the nucleus of the fleets out to 2015 for Qantas and our low cost airline Jetstar."

Mr Dixon said Qantas would use a combination of outright purchase and operating leases in acquiring the aircraft.

"All the costs of these new aircraft will be met by operating cash flows," he said.

Mr Dixon said Qantas had also decided to buy five more Boeing 737-800 aircraft for delivery from February 2008.

"The Boeing 737-800s will be used along with our existing 33 B737-800s in Australian domestic operations and will replace older B737-400s. The B737-400s will be sold, redeployed or converted to dedicated freighter aircraft."

Qantas Group has a fleet of 219 aircraft.


Interesting that the reports mentions that the company wants to use the A-380 on dense L/H routes such as the UK and the US to mention two.Yet LG in a letter tabled at the faaa union meeting insists that L/H crew will never operate the A-380 under our current conditions.

Does that mean that another crew will be operating the aircraft on these routes or that the company believes we will be operating cheaper by that time..

[twiggs]

Does that mean that another crew will be operating the aircraft on these routes or that the company believes we will be operating cheaper by that time..

The answer to that question is yes.

[lowerlobe]

Twiggs ,
Excuse my possible ( but improbable ) literary inferiority but I did not know it was possible to answer a question with one of two possible outcomes with a yes/no answer.

Exactly what was your positive answer referring to and what do you base it on?

Another interesting point though is that Darth is happy with the explanation for the delay and that it is fixable

[stubby jumbo]

What a deal.!!!!:D

Bet the boyz are sitting around cracking a few bottles of "french" over this one.
The negotiation could of gone something like this:

Airbus chief: "Weeze are tres soorry pour le stuff up avec le deliverie de Le grand avion."
Dixon: OK my little frog friend ..... time for some serious "le chat" -if you don't throw in at least 6x A-330's for nix.....this f---k-n deal is heading to Seattle with our pals at le Boeing-GET IT OR GET OUT!!!!
Airbus chief: Oui, Oui monsieur. We will donnez-vous 4x Airbuses gratis-..ca va?
Dixon: mmmmmmmmmmm Ok mate -DEAL....where do I sign??

Walking back to their hired Citroen......

Dixon: "OK boys lets celebrate down at the Riverera for a few days."

Then back at the QCA bunker.

Now to really put the icing on the cake.
A-380( x20) division for Cabin Crew (1000+)
Airbus division for Techies ie if you fly on an A-330, same pay as A-380.....all the same really EXCEPT one's got 2 extra engines and a bit of extra grunt!

"Lets crack another bottle of Moet.....deals only come a long like this, once in a life time"!-Dixon:ok: :ok:

[twiggs]

Twiggs ,
Excuse my possible ( but improbable ) literary inferiority but I did not know it was possible to answer a question with one of two possible outcomes with a yes/no answer.
Exactly what was your positive answer referring to and what do you base it on?


Yes, another crew will be operating the aircraft on these routes or the company believes we will be operating cheaper by that time..

In laymans terms, if we haven't agreed to "operate cheaper" (your words), then someone else will be doing the work. (you gave 2 possible scenerios to explain her statement and one is an alternative for the other, and it will be our decision that determines which one occurs)

[speedbirdhouse]

I'm sure QF will be able to find a "clever" group of flight attendants in Australia prepared to operate the A380 for far less than the status quo :ugh:

[lowerlobe]

Twiggs,
Yep ,I thought you would answer my question like that and it makes about as much sense as usual.

My point is that you responded like a pax who when asked if they would like Tea or Coffee looks vacantly at us and say’s “YES” and that answer has nothing to do with layman’s terms just a complete lack of understanding.

My question was a rhetorical one. The company has an agenda and it does not really matter what we do or offer. I have seen over the years a number of reasonable offers made to the company only to be rejected because they have no interest in our well being.

I’ll rephrase my question so that you might understand it .Does the company know something we don’t know in the way of an agreement already reached or are they that confident that we’ll cave in as usual in this latest game of chicken?

They are only interested in the total destruction of our T & C’s .Even if we say we will work for 240 hours then S/H will say they will work for 250 and so on with the only winner being Darth and the board. It is one group played against another in a race to the bottom.

How long it was after our last EBA when you would think that there would be peace and stability did the company try something? From memory it was only a few months. It does not matter what we give up, they will only want more and there are a lot of Neville Chamberlains out there who will give in at a drop of a hat.

TWIGGS, Do you want to work for J* international pay and conditions?
What are you willing to concede in quantitative terms?

Don't give us any airy fairy ,vague concepts of what we should prepared to give up .Tell us how many hours you think we should be doing and other concessions we should make to guarantee we fly the A-380 to the UK and the US

[RedTBar]

The order for even more A380's shows us some things.

Our boss is betting huge on this one with a number of delays and questions as to whether it will ever operate at all because of it's problems.

He has said that the airline with the best return will get them and if you look at the returns from J* you would question our new sibbling getting any at all.In fact whether L/H crew are more expensive than other crew mainline is making more money than J* and by that logic should get the new aircraft

Now maybe that means the company would like S/H to operate the aircraft to Europe ,UK and the US but I'm sure most S/H crew would not like it.Perhaps as Speedbirdhouse mentioned the company will find enough F/A's willing to drop their conditions and call it the 380 Division which will be another group used to divide and conquer.

Maybe airbus gave GD a sweetener big enough that he could not resist but if this aircraft turns out to be a lemon then GD will be remembered for it.

[sydney s/h]

Hey speedbirdhouse,

maybe you and your clever mates in LH should ensure that your crewing the
A380.

You and your union have failed in so many other ways to keep flying within the LH ranks (LHR base, AKL base, BKK base, AO, Jetstar, QF SH taking flying).

Maybe, just maybe, its time for a new tact and try a different spin on how you can keep your jobs.

Dont use the old excuse that everyone is under-cutting you - come up with a new idea to keep your flying. You can whinge - or you can attempt to fix it.

[qcc2]

i have to cite with LL on this one.
S/H union started the MAM casuals, VB contracts, Impulse turned J*etc. There weren,t many options available to negotiate the same conditions for AO,BKK base (as we used to say then at union meetings "your are setting a precedent"). reminder that the AKL base was not a legal option for the faaa, the london base got up thanks to the s/h union president. recently the faaa domestic gave dispensation to "extend" the 3 hour time zone to bombay, which takes to divisional flying agreement to the max. as you guys in s/h find out now longhaul flying is a little different with jetlag, more night sectors,etc.i hear many of my domestic mates now "whinge" about the extra hours, longer trips,etc.
we are at a point where QF has the advantage at the moment. :ugh: not all is lost, its a matter of getting organised.
the next step:
1) research QF management wage and bonuses in the last 10 years since privatisation.
2) compare them to other international airlines wages & conditions
3) communicate it to the public through various channels in the lead up to the election.
the QF unions have to keep reminding the public that "Il Duce" alone went from 1.8 million to 3.2 million in the last fin year.

[sydney s/h]

The LHR base got up thanks to the SH union president??? wow. 1 person. Thats some power she must have had.

So your union must be very weak if a union member from a different division can make decisions on your behalf!

As far as your SH mates complaining that they dont like the longer flying and whinging then why are they doing those flights? ALL regionals are still quite senior - yes, even the BOM trips. People on international flights are there because they want to be.

And you say about longer hours? We are still only working 123hrs/mth.

[speedbirdhouse]

And you say about longer hours? We are still only working 123hrs/mth.


Which is 248 hours per 2 month period which is the length of the Longhaul roster.

What is our Longhaul divisor guys????

200 and under if I'm not to be mistaken???

Lets not even mention the 'allowances" issues of which ALL other overseas bases get!!

And STILL you keep congratulating yourself????

Very clever syd/shorthaul, very clever...........:ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

[qcc2]

it appears you are
very junior
dont understand (yet) how the politics work in qf:ugh:
dont understand how politics (yet) work between the unions:ugh:
what incentives s/h got promised by qf to "bend over":yuk:
what trips mam casuals are getting called out for (according to mam casuals).;)
working hours? speedy well said.:=
now lets move on :ok:

[sydney s/h]

ok... you mentioned we are working "extra hours".

We are NOT working "extra hours".

We have ALWAYS worked 123hrs.

End of story.

NOW...we can move on.:ok:

p.s. QCC2... i am not very junior thanks.

[surfside6]

Qantas is able to employ whomever it chooses overseas and can not be prevented from doing so by Australian Unions.
The regional flying agreement did not cover the Airbus because Qantas chose not to include it..nor could it be compelled to do so.
The domestic union agreed to and convinced domestic crew to agree to the last domestic EBA...which in effect gives Qantas Carte Blanche to send then anywhere on vitually any a/c except a jumbo.
They are able to do this with a lesser pay structure,no allowances paid in local currency and up to 246 hrs per bid period.
123 hrs pe rmonth is okay in the same or close time zone.
The same can not be said for back of the clock flying,reduced standown time and major circadian time changes...all agreed to by domestic flight attendants and their representatives.
Longhaul have been complicit in their own demise by trusting in the integrity and intelligence of their domestic cousins...a big mistake.
To be smug about doing elses job for less money and reduced conditions beggars belief.
Any way whats done is done.As time goes on and QF management begins to take advantage of the last domestic EBA sydney s/h will slowly realise how they have been done over.
Loss of family friendly flying and the domination of domestic by casuals is just the beginning

[lowerlobe]

C'Mon guys ,take a breather and look at who the real enemy is as far as our jobs go.

we already have some here who are emailing tightslot complaining about reponses to their posts and to me that is about as un Australian as what our employer is doing.

If we don't work together to stop Darth we will all be vitually paying to go to work...

I have found an exert from an article in the SMH and it is very interesting...

Dixon would have been reasonably satisfied with the $480 million profit Qantas reported, although that profit included $104 million of damages from Airbus for delayed delivery of new planes. Qantas retained its position as one of the handful of solidly profitable traditional carriers in the world.

He would however be concerned about the contrast between Virgin Blue's performance and that of his own group, and the unflattering comparisons between Jetstar and Virgin Blue. Jetstar, excluding $15 million of one-off costs for launching its Trans-Tasman and international services, had an $11 million decline in pre-tax earnings to $25 million. Virgin Blues's pre-tax profits rose 16% to $123 million.

Looked at more closely Virgin Blue generated more revenue per passenger ($133 versus $122) at an almost identical cost per passenger ($120) and therefore made more profit per passenger ($12.60 against $1.80). It also had higher load factors (77% against 74%). Where Jetstar's yields, margins and profits fell, Virgin Blue's rose.

Part of the explanation for the difference in experiences is that, just as Virgin Blue's earnings in earlier times were depressed by the amount of additional capacity it was adding during the 'land grab' period of its brief history that occurred ahead of the Jetstar launch, Jetstar has also been ramping up capacity at a cost to its efficiency and its profitability.

It is evident, however, that Virgin Blue is extracting more revenue from its capacity than either of the domestic Qantas brands. Its revenue per available seat kilometre rose 4.5% against Qantas's domestic mainline operations (up 2.6%) and Jetstar (down 5.1%).

Moreover, Virgin Blue's return on assets, at 16.3%, is nearly double that of the Qantas goup. Given that Virgin Blue, which hasn't hedged its fuel costs, had to cope with a 35% rise in fuel costs, its performance relative to the other airlines in the region is remarkable.

For Dixon, Virgin Blue's ability to cope with the difficult environment is an early warning signal that the original strategy that led to Jetstar's creation may have forced Virgin Blue to evolve in a way that represents an even more direct, albeit long term, threat to Qantas's core franchise.

Jetstar was essentially a pincer strategy. Qantas hoped that by using its own value based airline to attack the high-volume, low margin core of Virgin Blue, to compete on the battleground of Qantas's choosing, and keep it away from the higher margin market segments.

[surfside6]

Conciliation with domestics was tried over 10 years ago with disastrous results.
A totally dogmatic tunnel visioned approach was their understanding of a united FA group...as long as they were in charge things would be fine.
The marriage of the two groups lasted about 3 years.
They had never dealt with a mob like Qantas and did not have the sophisitication nor understanding to do so.
They had their roots in a cosy duopoly.Both Ansett and TAA FAs were united and had pretty much been molly coddled by their employers.An ill founded trust developed between them all.
They believed that their employers would never do the wrong thing.
A mentality that still exists today.Thats why they are easy targets.
Unfortunately we LH CC are victims of their naivete.
Things arent going back to the way they were.
Future generations of crew will wonder how these hard fought for conditions were squandered by these incompetents for absolutely no gain whatsoever

[sydney s/h]

Quite funny surfside as the majority of the Sydney base is ex-LH. And its also funny that the old TAA girls dont want the regional flying - and hence were the biggest non-supporters of the last EBA.

So according to you, we are unsophisicated and incompetant.

Well maybe you should look closer to home and stop blaming everyone else for your demise. As i mentioned earlier - O/S bases are a big problem for you as is Jetstar International.

Sort that lot out and you may stand a chance.

[TightSlot]

Thank you - and now, moving on...

[cartexchange]

syd sh....
what exactly is your gripe, considering that you were ex long haul, why are your posts always so provocative.

anyway heard a story that a CSM was hauled in along with all the crew after a HNL trip apparently he was dobbed in by some of his crew because they thought his briefing was inappropriate.
Anyone know the story.
Also I have seen the new organization charts how in the hell did Fat boy slim get promoted after all the ballsup.

[DEFCON4]

Qantas Ethic...
always promote those who dont threaten you or your position

[DEFCON4]

As some of the old boilers from domestic bite the dust and take VR..my seniority has risen by 47 :D

[MarieM]

Hello all,

Can someone settle a query here RE: Staff travel benefits for Qantas Cabin/ground crew? I'm asking here as someone here must know!!

Ok - Q: When can you replace a family member on your Staff benefits?

Been given differing details ie :-

- 12 months after they have initially been put on.
- 6 months after they have initially been put on.

-Also, after this initial period expires, can they then be removed/replaced at any time the Qantas staff member requires?

-OR, if they are left on after the initial period and not replaced by someone else, must they then stay on for another 'non-removable' period.

Its confusing!! Help!! (As i am the family member in question..and not sure if I can get off the benefits...cant/too scared to pester my brother!!)

Thanks in advance!!

Marie

[GalleyChick]

I've done the changing of beneficiaries a few times. It was 12 months now changed to 6 months from date of putting the person on your list. After the 6-months period you can change them to someone else or keep them on. You can change them anytime after that (ie you don't have to wait a further 6 months).

[lowerlobe]

The problem we have with the fragmented union is a political one. The S/H union will do anything to undercut us and although there are a lot of ex L/H in S/H now the union is still made up of ex Australian airlines girls who have an intense dislike for us.
Then you have GM who after our union change went over to S/H and I’m sure he does not have anything nice to say about us either.

I know from some friends who went to S/H that they can have a great time at work unless they mention L/H and they have told me that some of the older girls go out of their way to give them a hard time. Notice that I said some and not all. The impression I get is that some of the S/H crew are still peeved that QF bought Australian airlines and their cosy little world changed forever.

To be honest a lot of us in L/H were not all that thrilled with the way things went either including the integrated seniority system. I’m sure the old TAA girls did not give integrated seniority to any of the crew from airlines they absorbed.

I have to be honest as well to say that I am less than impressed with the current L/H faaa as well and their dogmatic tunnel vision as surfside puts it.

Having said that, how do we fix the problem. The situation occurred and there is nothing we can do about it but we can improve it. Basically it takes two to tango and we can either continue this slanging match or we can be proactive together and try and head off Darth and his minions.

Unless we do something all of our conditions and that includes S/H will go down the tube and we will all look back at 2006 and say remember the good old days just as we do when we talk about the 70’s and 80’s and the TAA and Ansett days. Are we going to continue to try and undercut each other because if we do only Darth will win? We have to take the fight to the company and that means embarrassing them with information about their remuneration and bonuses.

If we continue the quietly ,quietly ,behind the doors ,confidential ,top secret approach that our current L/H faaa are so find of we are doomed.

[Butterfield8]

Well, Lowerlobe you dont play favourites you are critical of everyone.
The ONLY thing that will save our situation is a change of Federal government.
Other than that ...we are cactus.
You will never get domestic and longhaul to agree to anything.
As has been highlighted it has been tried and failed.
The 2 people at fault...the presiedent of the domestics and his offsider the industrial relations officer..who I should point out used to work for the FAAA and left under a cloud.

[blackguard]

Lets talk about something else:
Anyone know any good bars for a beer in downtown LAX?

[sydney s/h]

Cart exchange,

I am not ex-LH. The only time i have been on a jumbo is to go holidays.

Who is fatboy slim??

[Simon Templar]

He`s your daddy!!!!
The family resemblance is astonishing

[lowerlobe]

Butterfield,

It is not that I am critical of everyone but that it is in all our interests to work together .

You maybe right as far as the two unions go and if that is the case we are cactus as you put it.

A change of government will certainly help especially as a re-elected coalition will take it as a vindication of their policies and a mandate to go even further.

However ,the new IR laws were not enacted or even mentioned when the LHR base was considered and set up.Yet the L/H FAAA effectively did nothing to even resist it.That was when we should have been talking to the press about Australian jobs being lost but we basically stuck our head in the ground and hoped it would go away and Darth was encouraged to go further by our inaction.

It did not help though with the S/H faaa president going to LHR to work on the base .If that is not working with the company and accepting their pathetic conditions I don't know what is and therefore opening the floodgates to more losses in our conditions.

Your probably right though about the 2 unions working together and that means one thing.From now on we have to white ant S/H as they have done to us in order to secure our flying.This will start an endless cycle like a dog chasing it's tail.

If that is the case Blackguard has the best idea and that is to have a beer or three

[qcc2]

dont hear me say that too often these days but the faaa int. did try and stop the london base. legal opinions were optained, but as you mentioned our domestic collegues (la lady presidente)had a big hand in it.
now they want to move in with lh at ewan street, i hear.
my advise: every union official steps aside, let the members select a new(or combined) team and focus on the real enemy:ugh:

[lowerlobe]

qcc2,

I realise that the faaa did seek legal opinion and on those grounds there was not much we could do to prevent it's start up.However,I think there was lot more we could have done media wise to announce the imminent loss of Australian jobs.We could have mentioned that very few Australians went for it because we were being asked to work on an Australian wage in a country with a substantial increase in the cost of living.We did not mention to the press that the company was not paying it's superannuation requirements under Australian law and that was another reason the company was establishing the base overseas.We just sat back and whinged about it and what was the result...bingo Darth got his base and then set about another one and now we have pornstar as well.

I do agree with you on the idea of the officials on both sides stepping down and elections being held for a new combined union .Then as you said we could focus on the real threat and not at each others throats.

I do know one thing and that is Darth would not be happy with a combined union.It would be the last thing he would want.

[twiggs]

I think everyone has lost sight of what this job is about, and it aint money.
It's about the destinations.

[cartexchange]

its about both twiggs! plus job satisfaction and to be appreciated and not treated as a liability

[speedbirdhouse]

twiggs,

as usual you speak only for yourself.

"Destinations" dont pay the mortgage, put food on the table or put kids through school.

[speedbirdhouse]

Lurker@L5,

is OJQ a 2 or 3 class, Pacific or Kangaroo?

Just need to know as iv'e a 2 class trip coming up and will go sick if need be.

I don't need the stress and agro of dealing with the ramifications of QF management's efforts to maintain their performance bonuses.

I'm not paid enough..........

[ditzyboy]

I’m sure the old TAA girls did not give integrated seniority to any of the crew from airlines they absorbed.

The Air Queensland and some MVA (Murray Valley Airlines) chicks got integrated seniority.

[ozskipper]

I'm pretty sure its a 3 class Kanga.

[DEFCON4]

A few posts back our esteemed friend "Twiggs" suggested that our job was all about destinations...it was.... about ten years ago
Get with the programme sunshine...your credibility is approaching an imaginary number

[surfside6]

Lesley Grant believe it or not does.
Send her an unemotional e mail with all the details:
Rego
Date
Sector
Capt
Flt Number
and a list of faults.
I did this a couple of years ago when OJI had major cabin issues.She grounded the A/C and had everything repaired.
Contact the engineering desk in the product centre..they love hearing about foreign engineering cock ups....they will also push hard to have the A/C grounded and repaired.
Also send Bolty Mcbolt a PM with the details.He is a Sydney based Engineer.
NO emotion just facts will get results.
If you dont want to do it....send me the details and I will.
I will eventually have to operate on it
Sounds like a shocker

[Bolty McBolt]

To clear up a few points OJQ has just been thru SYD and it looks like many of the out standing items listed here have been addressed. Zero hold items in the tech log. Lets hope it lasts.

OJO (the other SIA major maint aircraft) on the other hand still has a few issues but is getting better.

The Major maint in Sydney never took 90 days or even 60. At their peek they were doing a D check in 42 days give or take a day with thousands of defects written up and rectified. The QF product was never slow it appeared costly and therefore targeted. :D

The difference is for an external company to do the major maint (D check) and they are paid to do the inspection but the rectification comes out of their own budget How much do you think they see!...said the blind man on a galloping horse.. I didn't notice :yuk:

[RedTBar]

Just noticed we are moving across the road to the other wing.This means one of two things ,either the hotel put up the rates on the original side or the company got a cheaper rate on the other side of the footbridge.We will probably still check in at the same place though...

Twiggs will obviously know!

[Shlonghaul]

The Australian
Bid to ground pilots
Author: Steve Creedy
Publication: The Australian (029,Fri 03 Nov 2006)
QANTAS pilots are being told to take leave or find temporary work
overseas because the airline has too many flight crew.
Qantas confirmed yesterday the delay in the delivery of the Airbus A380
and the transfer to Jetstar International of four A330-200 aircraft meant it had too many pilots.
But the Australian and International Pilots Association urged Qantas to
let pilots fly for Jetstar.
An AIPA newsletter circulated yesterday said Qantas A330 crew were on
reduced flying time because of the loss of planes to Jetstar.
The newsletter said the pilots had been told they could not transfer to
Jetstar without resigning from Qantas, despite moves by the new carrier to recruit captains from overseas.
Jetstar pilots earn up to $100,000 a year less than their Qantas
counterparts. The union sees the low-cost carrier as an effort to slash wages and conditions across the group.
``It was put to Qantas pilots on the A330 Airbus fleet at a Qantas
briefing that they consider applying for leave of absence or seek temporary employment overseas,'' the newsletter says.
``In addition, it was made clear to the Airbus pilots that should they
not seek and obtain employment overseas, that they are likely to be assigned leave to help reduce Qantas's crewing costs.''
AIPA president Ian Woods said it was hard to see how Qantas could
defend the move.
``On one hand the company has a surplus of A330 pilots in all ranks,
and on the other hand, Jetstar is recruiting offshore direct-entry captains.''
However, Qantas said pilots were asked to voluntarily take accrued
leave or leave without pay, during which they could work for an airline overseas. Qantas's head of human resources, Kevin Brown, said four similar leave programs had been run in the past, notably in 2003 when the SARS outbreak reduced flights.
``Getting people to take leave is part of a range of initiatives to
deal with the fact we have more pilots than work due to the delay in the A380,'' he said.
``There are individual pilots who are choosing of their own volition --
on a voluntary basis -- to go on leave without pay and we've encouraged that for decades for Qantas.''
On the union's call to allow the surplus pilots to transfer to Jetstar,
Mr Brown said Jetstar and Qantas were separate businesses.
He said 18 Qantas pilots had moved to Jetstar.
***********************************
Do we hear our esteemed management taking leave without pay or heaven forbid ------ a pay cut?? :E

[RedTBar]

Schlonghaul,

Interesting report about the techies and the QF's employees best mate KB.

If the flying is getting that restricted or they are giving that much flying to J* then what do you think the chances of another VR package for cabin crew are?

Could be an early christmas present for some of us so inclined as to accept a package if it were offered.

[speedbirdhouse]

3 November 2006

Attention all Qantas Long Haul Flight Attendants

Clause 11 Police Raid Aircraft

We wrote to you recently about the “Ambush at the Aerobridge” – a Qantas Cabin Crew Management tactic whereby injured crew are met at the aircraft and coerced into attending a medical examination with Qantas Doctors, rather than allowing injured flight attendants to see their own doctor.

Well last Friday night the stakes were raised to a new level by Cabin Crew Management. Rather than explain the situation we would like to share with you the content of a letter received by the FAAA in relation to a recent aircraft raid by Cabin Crew Management:

I arrived home to Sydney on QF4, Friday night 27 October 2006. This flight had commenced in Honolulu where we had started our day with an aborted take-off and return to the terminal. Our wake up call in Honolulu was 4.45am Sydney time and we arrived in Sydney at 7.15pm after a tour of duty of thirteen and a half hours.

While disembarking our passengers we became aware of Managers on the aero-bridge with more and more arriving as we helped wheel chair passengers. When we had completed getting all our passengers off the aircraft, our CSM was taken away and we were informed that we were going to be interviewed on the aircraft in relation to an allegation that took place prior to our departure four days earlier.

This is not a complaint against any individual, but rather the procedure we were confronted with. Tired, uninformed and unrepresented, we were isolated in different parts of the aircraft (i.e. jump seat, galleys, upper deck) and read prepared questions. All of the crew involved I saw when we were released were shocked, dismayed and disorientated.

I am considered by most people I know as a resilient positive individual but even I was deeply disturbed by this sudden confrontation at the completion of a very demanding and busy day. In fact, I have struggled with the whole incident all weekend and slept little.

Again I stress I have no complaint against any individual but believe the process followed was totally inappropriate. It felt very much like a criminal or military operation. I would not wish such a process to be inflicted on any of my colleagues in the future.

So what was so serious that would warrant this form of resource intensive operation? Was someone attacked or assaulted? No. It seems that someone made a bad joke during the pre-flight briefing 4 days earlier. Yes, a bad joke, that was all! Unbeknown to the person who made the joke, a Cabin Crew Manager was eavesdropping outside the briefing room.
The FAAA has expressed our absolute outrage to Cabin Crew Management over their behaviour. In our view, this type of behaviour is more suited to Stalinist regimes and not modern workplaces (but perhaps this is a side effect of the extreme industrial relations changes made by the Howard Government??).

Not only is Cabin Crew Management’s conduct out of kilter with generally accepted standards of behaviour, but they have also breached numerous aspects of the EBA, including ground duty limitations and clause 11 itself. We truly wonder what example these people believe that they are setting for crew. They are your managers, right?

Despite our representations, Cabin Crew Management have stood by their conduct and have not ruled out further aircraft raids in the future. We will continue to pursue the company on this matter to prevent further such episodes.

In the meantime, if crew find themselves in such a predicament, we recommend:

firstly, be reasonable in relation to any requests;
interviews are ‘ground duties’, and can therefore only be allocated on ‘A’ days and must not conflict with minimum base turnaround time or awarded or assigned duty. Consequently, if you have been on a long tour of duty and are tired, or need to get home for family or other responsibilities, you should say so. Management can schedule a ground duty at an appropriate time that is suitable to you and is in accordance with the EBA;
ALL flight attendants being interviewed are entitled to FAAA representation, and in accordance with the EBA you may terminate any interview procedures until such representation is available;
management may only interview flight attendants if they advise the subject matter of the interview;
if you are the person who is the subject of the clause 11 ‘investigation’, you are entitled to be provided with any reports, interviews, statements and or other relevant information at least 24 hours prior to any interview.
If at any time you are uncertain of what you can and can’t do, please call the Association for advice.

We will be writing to you again shortly about some other concerning clause 11’s, including: the great chocolate heist, the baggage room door incident, shouting on paper, the UNICEF incident, the sore knee debacle and the ‘sullen crew’ episode. We will also include some tips for management that could save Qantas several million dollars per year.

Written by Cameron McInerney – National Industrial Officer
and authorised by Michael Mijatov - Secretary
20 Ewan Street Mascot NSW 2020 Tel 61 2 8337 1111 Fax 61 2 8337 1122 Emergency Contact 0414 894 192

--------------------------------------------

WELCOME TO LITTLE JOHNNIES BRAVE NEW WORLD..................

[Mr Seatback 2]

Just when you think you've heard everything...

Have these individuals not something better to do, than stake out an arriving aircraft? If the matter was spotted post-briefing, WHY wasn't it raised then? (not permitted, naturally, but...really...start of duty vs. end of duty??)

Assault on an aircraft? Abuse of a crewmember? Sure, turn up in droves...
Bad joke a briefing? Surely the Stasi have other, bigger fish to catch.

Maybe that's the tactic - catch you off your guard courtesy of jetlag and 13 hr duty. No sodium pentothol required.

Utterly appalling behaviour by so called 'managers'.

The ultimate irony is that if you do any of the management modules of the Qantas College, the 'best practice' you're trained to perform is at total odds with this excuse for management. :ugh:

[RedTBar]

It seems as though someone at the top is a fan of Hogans Heroes and in particular the managment style of Colonel Klink. They are dismantling the Australian ethic of mateship and installing a new "Spirit of Australia" now known as the "Dobbing Kangaroo".Winny started this insidious practice and now it seems it is endemic in our work place.

Undoubtedly those here that dob others into the moderator also will be letting the office know of any dissension in the ranks .It reminds me of the well known CIA flyer who takes it upon herself to rid you of any demons by dobbing you in and therefore saving your soul and probably getting a credit against her own past sins. Now we have to contend with management doing the same .This job is getting better by the minute.

[stubby jumbo]

This whole episode is yet another example of an organisation with the wheels wobbling .......then falling off one by one.

This "new" style of Management comes straight out of:

MANAGEMENT #101 written by Chris Corrigan. Random House. 1996.

Ever since this crew connect initiative was inflicted upon us the chasm of mistrust has grown as big as the Grand Canyon. We all march in , eyes down caste , so as to not make eye contact, sign on, clear our files and then bolt for the "relative " sanctuary of our transparent briefing room.

Its quite sad really !

Once we get out of SYD.......all is fine with the QF world.

We get on, are usually motivated by the OBM's, and genuinely attempt to make a difference for the punter in all zones.....easy.

So WHY in Gods name do the Managers try and make it so difficult for us ???

Leave us alone.

We're OK ,.....thank you very much.

Let us get on with what we were employed to do.

Comprende :ugh: :ugh:

[Mr Seatback 2]

Sad, isn't it, when the very people employed to motivate, manage and support the crew, are instead responsible for inspiring fear, intimidation and bullying.

At the risk of asking a loaded question, how and why did this change? I remember a time (and I'm not that old, either), when my managers were people I looked up to for guidance, support and leadership...I especially remember a manager I worked under at Ansett who was all of these things.

Is it KPI's? Or is it bonuses linked to KPI's? Do you think that if bonuses were eliminated, managerial performance would be less aggressive? Hell...they couldn't do much worse than they already are!

Food for thought. I'd be interested in your opinions. I guess, like our passengers, management are a study in human psychology (or in this case, psychosis)...

[stubby jumbo]

Sad, isn't it, when the very people employed to motivate, manage and support the crew, are instead responsible for inspiring fear, intimidation and bullying.

...I especially remember a manager I worked under at Ansett who was all of these things.
...

I especially remember a manager we worked under in the Perth base around the time of the AN collapse.

Talk about a positive vibe.

We all got on, the manager would come into briefings, sit on the lounge with us and talk to us before sign on,support as when required, occasionally attend "drinkies" with all of us at the Queens Hotel at Mt Lawley, organise social events and....................

.......................HE FLEW WITH US ON OPERATIONAL TRIPS.

Thats where this experiment has all gone wrong.

The people in the orifice have no idea of what we actually do OR how stuffed we feel; at the end of a 10hr QF 4 sector..........no wonder they could not answer their innane questions!!!!

Can we bring back Managers who fly OR have flown ?

Sure .....QF will never give us wimps who'll just roll over to our every command. BUT, watch "engagement" go up if we get people who support us and not their KPI's.

But then again I'm living in "fairy land".

This is a brave new world.

GREED IS GOOD.:( ........just ask any QF shareholder.

[Mr Seatback 2]

The 'cancer' of any organisation is the KPI system itself - or more specifically, the way QF have structured the KPI system.

Now...don't get me wrong...I have nothing against rewarding deserving individuals with a financial (or other) bonus. In fact, it's a great tool for rewarding and motivating managers.

However...the KPI's themselves are flawed. The bonus is given simply for reaching the KPI - HOW that is reached is irrelevant, and that's the issue I think for a lot of us. Like most reasonable folk, I have nothing wrong with the idea of a manager doing their job and its' difficult tasks like managing sick leave, etc. The practice, however, is the key and their people skills to manage said tasks.

What I'd like to see is the KPI's linked to engagement from the crew, and 'upward feedback' scoring of that manager from line crew in areas like people skills, etc. I can just see the look of horror on the faces of some managerial individuals right now. :E

Could you just imagine - the 'two pronged' KPI - the figures AND the people? Lots more reporting, but a hell of a lot more say in the 'true' performance of that manager. If the FA's can do it to the CSM's, then why not keep the flow moving upward??

[RedTBar]

Winnie the fog horn started all of this and bought with her the concept of dobbing .She wanted a network of informers to let her know what was happening .

The rot has just continued with a number of crew and now managers continueing this trend.It is just like Germany during the 30's and 40's when people would dob neighbours and others in to gain favour with the people in charge.

[RedTBar]

It seems as though the company is not only willing but also able to destroy any enjoyment a crew member might have in their job.

then they want you to go to work and be all bubbly and friendly to the customers with clause 11's flying all over the place which is a really strange logic when you think about it.

Very strange

[indamiddle]

does management have a legal right to hold crew
onboard an aircraft after duty complete?
if not, can crew call on the airport police to
remove the managers so as to allow crew to
leave and go home?

[Tropicalchief]

Have read with interest the comments regarding management tactics toward FA's and suggest that you all pay them too much attention. Don't tell them anything, don't trust any of them, don't ever believe that if you do them a favour that they will reciprocate.
You need to change your tactics, and you can start by complaining about THEM. Expose all their excesses, to the newspapers, CASA, the FAAA, the Government and opposition parties, federal and state. If anyone in QF management looks at you sideways lodge a complaint to their supervisor and stick by your guns. Management, for far too long have been getting away with all sorts of abuse against FA's and it's only going to stop if you all stick together and show them that you have all had enough of the mistreatment.
Like them or loathe them the FAAA is all you have and if they spend any amount of time "fighting" in-house matters, the less time they have to concentrate on matters that concern all FA's. Leave the politics to the ballot box. Your common enemy is QF management and apathy. Get involved and take the mongrels on. Rats in the ranks and quislings are nothing new, you must know who they are and be able to convince them to change their tune.
Co-operation with any of the industrial groups within Qantas has never been a priority with management so don't even try and in the present climate "pre-emptive" attacks are your best defence collectively. On an individual basis, there are remedies in common law to protect you from abuse, threats, intimidation and harassment from any person. Look them up and use them because the longer you allow management to get away with the abuse the longer they will continue to treat you like animals.
It's all up to you, collectively and individually.

[airbusthreetwenty]

It's no joke: Qantas cabin crew interrogated



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November 6, 2006 - 3:52PM

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A rude joke amongst Qantas cabin crew led to airline management intimidating flight attendants and interrogating them four days after the joke was made, a union says.
A Flight Attendants' Association of Australia memo says a group of Qantas cabin crew managers met an inbound flight from Honolulu on Friday, October 27 - four days after the joke had been made by a flight attendant during a staff briefing.
The union says cabin crew were then split up and interrogated.
"While disembarking our passengers we became aware of managers on the aero-bridge with more and more arriving as we helped wheelchair passengers," the memo says.
"When we had completed getting all our passengers off the aircraft, our customer service manager was taken away and we were informed that we were going to be interviewed on the aircraft in relation to an allegation that took place prior to our departure four days earlier."
"Tired, uninformed and unrepresented, we were isolated in different parts of the aircraft ... and read prepared questions.
"All of the crew involved I saw when we were released were shocked, dismayed and disorientated."
Qantas was approached for a response to the allegations but is yet to make a comment. Neither the union nor Qantas has revealed the nature of the joke.
The union says it has expressed outrage over the behaviour of management.
"In our view, this type of behaviour is more suited to Stalinist regimes and not modern workplaces," the memo says.
"Despite our representations, cabin crew management have stood by their conduct and have not ruled out further aircraft raids in the future."
AAP

http://www.smh.com.au/news/travel/its-no-joke-qantas-crew-grilled/2006/11/06/1162661603594.html

[lowerlobe]

I've got to say that after flying for around 30 years I'm not surprised at what happened.

A few of you might remember the take off towels incident a number of years ago when the 21 crew was asked if they would give towels out when a semi official dispute was going on regarding take off towels.Management cornered the last crew to leave Sydney on a Friday night if memory serves me correctly.

Those in the office normally have an inflated opinion of their importance and do not handle jokes regarding their position with any humility.I don't know what the joke was or who it was directed at but this is not the first time something like this has happened and it won't be the last.

The part that I would like to know is who let them know about the joke.Was it a visitor lurking around the briefing rooms or was it one of the crew in the actual room.With all the glass it would be hard for someone to lurk close enough to hear and maybe it was someone on the crew..

[mamslave]

thats exactly right, casuals do not have any loyalty to the qf brand.

when will mr qantas realise this?

hence why over 100 mam casuals have resigned this year (inc me!)

on another note are they hiring even more? This advertisement was recently put on seek
Casual Interviewer/Assessors



Our client is a major player in the airline industry and requires 5 experienced Recruitment Professionals.

You will be assisting with running group assessment centres and 1 on 1 interviews for Cabin Crew staff.

The dates you will be required are 16th, 17th, 19th, 20th, 21st, 22nd November, this includes work on a Sunday. On most days you will be required for full days, and potentially to stay back if need be, so we are looking for flexibilty.

We are looking for senior recruitment professionals with extensive experience in behavioural style interviewing. The pay rate of the role is a flat hourly rate of $35. Corporate presentation is essential to your success in this role as the client has a strict dress code policy for both candidate's and assessors.

[Bolty McBolt]

For the benefit of the great unwashed..

What is a clause 11 ?

And does anybody know the joke or what was said in the crew breifing that landed the CC on the QF 3/4. ( PM me if you don't want post it)

If its a good joke or line I will use it daily !
:ok:

[surfside6]

This is a clause in our award that relates to disciplinary action.
When applied to its full extent it can lead to dismissal.
It has been use over the last few years to "manage"undesirable individuals out of the business.
Invariably it is also used to threaten and intimidate....with fairly predictable results.
Qantas has never won a clause 11 in the AIRC.
Usually a fairly generous offer is made so that the individual is disinclined to return.
The companys own protocols are never followed.
The CCTMs are not very conversant with the finer points of Clause 11...hence their unequalled lose rate.
The current management regime is based on threat and intimidation.
All part of keeping the pressure on.
Eps,KPIs are all part of the pressure protocol.
The pressure is all implied.
After a while you become immune and disengaged.
The CSM involved in this debacle is one such individual.
The company will lose its case for dismissal,offer him some bucks and he will retire.
A very expensive exercise for the company.
The bean counters will eventually wise up and the process will cease...hopefully
All this is run by the aptly named "Black Widow" and the petticoat platoon.
A totally dysfunctional group who are totally lacking in remorse or empathy.
"Malevolents with mammaries" if you will.

[cart_elevator]

Well, this crew member has a real legal case against QF!

Any feedback has to be timely if that CCTM/ Manager heard whatever joke in the briefing, and did not address it then and there, but let the crew member continue off to the aircraft - then that manager has no case at all! he/she did not inform the crew member involved of the 'wrong behavour' at the time (yet had the opportunity), did not give them a chance to change/ apologise for their behaviour, so they have not addressed it in a timely manner.

This is a lawsuit against QF just waiting to happen ! Where do they get these managers from? And why dont they at least make them read the manuals the crew have to work to ! Jeez what a bunch of morons :ugh:

[Le 3rd Homme]

A report in todays Fin Review(P.20)suggests that a private equity company has been conducting a a due diligence appraisal of the QF operation.
Probably why the share price has jumped a little.
Perhaps the takeover mob would sweep out the currwent management team.
Then again perhaps not...I can only dream.

[RedTBar]

This was posted on a tech crew site about the aircraft raid the other day and it is very good.



"cabin crew management have stood by their conduct and have not ruled out further aircraft raids in the future"

"Come in and shut the door behind you"

"Ma' am ?"

"Shhhh we have an issue"

"An issue? Do you mean a problem?

"No this Cabin Crew Land we have issues and challenges and...Anyway read the manual it's got all this yuk speak at the back under glossary. B for Buns etc"

"Now listen up-that's under L it means listen- somebody has told a rude joke at a meeting"

"A rude joke!!!!! Gasp!"

"Yes now we don't want to over-react to this issue so we are going to raid a plane"

"Raid a plane!!!!!"

"Will you stop repeating everything I say it's not an evacuation drill"

"Evacuate evacuate come this way hurry hurry form two lines jump and sit....."

"Look just be quiet help yourself to a miniature and try and get a grip"

"The Honolulu flight is arriving soon the C.C...."

"C.C?'

"Cabin crew, cabin crew under C. Read that glossary. This is getting painful.
No not now. Listen up"

"That's under L isn't it? it means listen"

"Yes well done. I said one miniature that's your third Now we are going to coordinate all 27 managers so they act as a team on this raid'

"Wow that's a first"

"What raiding a plane?

"No acting as a team that's never been tried before. Anyway if 27 managers are raiding a plane who will look after the office?"

"The other 47 managers and don't tell me it's going to be tight since we downsized I know that I deal with it every day. It's an issue"

"Another issue- groan..... "

"Don't mumble and put that meal tray down it's my breakfast"
"Now when the plane arrives let the passengers disembark and all 27 of you enter the aircraft discreetly and separate the C.C.

"I know that one Cabin Crew"

"Yes good have another miniature and a spoonful of muesli. Now ask them the list of prepared questions. Here it is"

"Hmmm question one Did you get the miniatures and the harpoon from Costco?"

"What! That's a private note give it back and don't mention the harpoon or the next ditching exercise will be ruined. Now off you go. On the way out get the big lights to shine in their faces and the handcuffs and batons and don't forget no visible marks. We don't need any more issues or challenges"

Hours pass and the raiders return.

"Well? Did they answer the prepared questions"

"Yes Ma'am"

"And?

"Identical answers to every question. I think some collusion may have occurred"

"What were the answers?"

"G.F. Ma'am.It in the glossary under R.

"R? And what does the R stand for"

"Reproduction I think Ma'am"

[qcc2]

all CSM's CSS's should print the FAAA newsletter about the raid and "pesent it in no uncertain terms to the b******s CCM whenever they try another stupid thing like that.:ugh: :ugh:

[MSHOSTESS]

Hi Everyone !

I have an interview with the above this Saturday coming. First ever interview. Really nervous:uhoh: , and dont know what to expect. A couple of you have been a really great help so far, but is there any pointers any one can give, or perhaps is anyone else going to this one ?:O

[sydney s/h]

Mamslave,

you say over 100 casuals have resigned this year?! This year isnt over, but caculating over the past 12months......

I have heard of 2 in syd who went to emirates.

100 would mean just over 8 per month, more than 2 per week EVERY week of the year.

So this is correct???

I think with those figures i would have heard of more than 2 in the past year.

[mamslave]

sydney s/h

you know we have other bases than Syd! melb, brissie, and perth, and yes it is 100. Australia wide.

Just ask any of your union reps:eek:

[Bundy]

There has been a constant turnover of casuals this year with many seeking full time employment elsewhere. At the beginning of August - 80 casuals had resigned network wide in 2006. That number has increased in the last two months.:cool:

[qcc2]

MAM casuals are another way of exploitation. Who in their right mind would stick around with their conditions. Now, QF keeps training more. naturally the training costs will be subsidised by the various departments so the financial numbers keep looking good.:yuk: :yuk:

[RedTBar]

I just had an idea for a business venture.Seeing that there are a lot of people that are applying for J* and VB lets start our own employment service and undercut MAM.

We could supply crew to the airlines and pay back MA who once was on the union and we get paid to do it. There seems to be no end of people who want fly so supply woulde be no problem.

Ifr we don't do it MAM gets all the business.

We could call it ...wait for it...

Flight Attendants Recruiting Crew.....and the acronym would be...FARC

[indamiddle]

private equity firms buy out a company, restructure and rip out costs.
they are usually highly leveraged (mortgaged to the hilt).
bulk management would go, salaries and wages cut then about 5
years later offered up as an ipo...back on stock market.
these guys make dixon look like a beginner and while management
would cop it in the neck so would we
as my croation grandfather says "be careful what u wish for..."

[And5678]

Hey Team, :yuk:

Have heard through grapevine from a Long Term Visitor at QCC1, that there are strong plans to close the LH base in Melbourne, in similar fashion to how Perth LH was executed. Is linked with AKL base gaining CSM & CSS positions and taking over MEL-LAX pattern.

Can anyone else see the smoke?

[oneworldairline]

Hey guys...

I just curious im workin in the hospitality industry and earnin around 60 a year.. I really would love to work with mam to get the feelin and the experience but ... i was wonderin in the long term would it be possible to get full time with qantas?

when they recruit do they recruit from the mam pool?

well thanks in advance

[DEFCON4]

Qantas Mainline will never again employ full time CC....its casuals forever

[Pegasus747]

If a vistor has given you credible information that the Melbourne base is closing i would suggest that you immediately go to Taranto or Webster and advise them who gave you the information.

If its a lie, then the visitor will be sacked on the spot. I doubt however that the information is correct or that one of the visitors has revealed that info.

AND... i dont know if you are a flight attendant or just one who has made only one post here to cause further job insecurity and concern.

You can private message me the details of who said what if you like and i will verify the authenticity of the information by identifying the source to the FAAA if you are too afraid to reveal which vistor said it on here.

Over to you..put up or shut up

[sydney s/h]

oneworldairline,

as per the agreement with the FAAA and QF, there is the permanent employment of 40 fulltime crew to join the mainline SH ranks and these crew are to come from QantasLink, Jetstar and MAM Casuals. Most probably based in PER (the last ones have been).

Defcom - if someone on here asks a question just answer it without the emotion. Or zip it.

[uz32]

I think ditzyboy may disagree with you, Bad A

[jetstarFA]

Bad Adventures

Sydney S/H is correct - Part 4 section 23 of the JQ EBA 2006 has Career Progression for JQ flight attendants to join the Career Progression list to go to a Permanent Full - time position at Qantas Short Haul....

Since Jetstar began we have had 2 or 3 (can't recall exact figures) groups of Flight attendants who have "progressed"....

I guess that Sydney S/H has the FACTS and IS correct:D :D

[twiggs]

Bad Adventures
Sydney S/H is correct - Part 4 section 23 of the JQ EBA 2006 has Career Progression for JQ flight attendants to join the Career Progression list to go to a Permanent Full - time position at Qantas Short Haul....


Well that's something a lot of people in l/h are not aware of and is good to hear that permanent Aust. based mainline ranks are being replenished to some extent!

[uz32]

What happened to Bad A's post. Removed due to ignorance?

[jetstarFA]

All Jetstar, Eastern and Sunstate crew can go on the transfer list to become QF mainline.... It is a LOOOOONG list as you can imagine but crew do get there... PER has been the only base for a while but when SYD, MEL or BNE comes available then we will all jump at the chance.....

But the faint smell of hope is on the horizon....

Bad Adventures remarks were removed by the moderator I hope...

[Sistema]

Heard a rumour that progression for JQ,Sunnies etc is not going to happen for a while due to the AO crew 'absorbing' into QF. Even just to the extent of mainline patterns, where the cns crew are being utilized.
And also heard, Mel s/h was on the cards as a option for the cns crew to transfer too late 2007. :confused:
Any one know anything... I know its just rumour but just thought i'd ask!
:)

[Sonique]

oneworldairline,
as per the agreement with the FAAA and QF, there is the permanent employment of 40 fulltime crew to join the mainline SH ranks and these crew are to come from QantasLink, Jetstar and MAM Casuals.

I didn't think MAM had permanent progression features like the regionals ? I know a while back they let a few in to keep them quiet. But since when has it been the same as Jetstar,Sunstate & Eastern ?

The more airlines they add to the progression list the longer it takes for everyone.:ugh:

[ditzyboy]

The last progression was 32 MAM followed by (half a year later) 32 Link/Star (comprising of 10 (or 6?) Eastern, 6(or 10?) Sunnies and 16 Star). Who knows how they figured that out?! One would assume that the number of MAMs made permenant is met by an equal number of Link/Star Chicks. Who knows how they divvy it up? Any set formula?

It is sad that regional progression (particularily from EAA and SSA) has taken such a back seat. But great that casuals are given a chance (as small as it may be!) to become permanent.

Marjorie Dawes (Little Brittain) -
So it's not all bad news...
and
It's not easy, is it?

[Kangacrew]

Heard a rumour that progression for JQ,Sunnies etc is not going to happen for a while due to the AO crew 'absorbing' into QF. Even just to the extent of mainline patterns, where the cns crew are being utilized.
And also heard, Mel s/h was on the cards as a option for the cns crew to transfer too late 2007. :confused:
Any one know anything... I know its just rumour but just thought i'd ask!
:)

AO crew operate x5 767 aircaraft as we did prior to the commencement of the wetlease (not absorbed) to QF. With J* Int about to operate the bali routes from Dec 7 AO will commence the Manila route from Syd & via Bne.
We have never heard of any transfers down south (Mel or otherwise) up here in Cairns. Who knows where we'll be or what we'll be once our EBA's run out.
Fly safe! :ok:

[PER210]

Hey. You are probably all going to hate me and bash me, i've read other forums where people arnt liked, however i havnt seen it happen here... yet. ANYWAY, I can apply for airlines as cabin crew in about 7 months... not that im counting :). I was just wondering, how often do airline usualy hire? and, how long would i roughly have to wait before getting an interview/hired. Anyhelp will be awsome. And, before you know it, I will be on one of your flights! :D
Az.

[sydney s/h]

Thought this may interest some of you.......





FAAA NEWS

10 November, 2006 QF36-06

Attention All Short Haul Flight Attendants’

FAAA STRUCTURE

Breaking Down Division’s

As members maybe aware, there have been ongoing discussions with the FAAA International Division on removing the barriers between the Divisions.

By way of background, approximately two years ago myself and other senior officials from our Division approached the FAAA International Division with a view of removing restrictions and operating as one union. It is worth noting that time we had similar membership numbers and EBA’s up for negotiation. We believed this to be an ideal time to progress this matter. However this offer was politely declined by Long Haul.

Members should note, that the only positive that came from not progressing the matter, at that stage, was it may well have resulted in a geographical structure that would simply not work under the current industrial climate.

Since then your Division has grown substantially mainly due to the successful introduction of the Airline Team Structure in lieu of the old geographical (state) Branch structure. The majority of airlines we represent (15 in total) have an Airline Team Coordinator, Team delegates and an allocated FAAA staff person, with two new Industrial Organisers soon to be employed, to deal with issues important to their own members in their own airline.

Each airline team controls their own destiny within the confines of the Association rules. In short, our Divisional Council/Executive is made up of representatives from each airline team who have the overall responsibility for ensuring the industrial and professional interests of all Flight Attendants. To introduce a structure of autonomy without safeguards would simply replicate division between members. Your structure has been developed to ensure equal say for all members and does not allow one airline undue influence over decision making. This success of this structure is evident by the increase in our membership and can also be measured by our industrial achievements.




As reported at recent Qantas Short Haul members meetings, the FAAA International Division has a full understanding of our structure and has acknowledged the importance of our new structure in meeting future industrial/airline challenges. In fact they have expressed an interest in moving forward under our structure as a Qantas Long Haul Team.

This newsletter is to update all members, including those who have contacted the FAAA requesting feedback as to the status of these important negotiations. As reported at the members meetings, time is of the essence to finally be a unified force for the future of all flight attendants before significant EBA’s are due to be renegotiated.

In September 2006 your Division put a detailed position paper to the FAAA International Division outlining a way forward. As previously stated, there would be a Qantas Long Haul Team with a separate Team structure for Australian Airlines and Jetstar International. Unfortunately the Long Haul Division is yet to respond to this paper.

We also believe that the introduction of the Jetstar International AWA (Individual Contracts) is a concern for members of both Divisions’. We have suggested a meeting between the Division’s to formulate common strategies to deal with assisting our colleagues in Jetstar International, in improving their conditions of employment and ensure they have a rewarding career in the industry.

I will keep you informed of discussions once they eventually recommence. However, from your Division’s perspective, responsibility must be taken to ensure all flight attendants conditions of employment are protected in this volatile industry, regardless of uniform.

In conclusion, be reassured that we will leave no stone unturned to ensure that we will continue to push for one FAAA under the proven and successful Domestic/Regional Airline Team Structure.



This newsletter was written and authorised by Darryl Watkins Divisional Secretary.

[lowerlobe]

As usual this is the first I have heard of this subject in relation to a unified union.Certainly nothing that I am aware of on this subject has been realeased from the L/H cone of silence .

It certainly makes sense in todays enviroment but the trick is in the way that it is formulated.In any case it is a good idea and should be an urgent item on the agenda.

[sydney s/h]

Lower,

I agree with you and think its important - unified we stand a much better chance.

It says in the newsletter that the LH FAAA has done nothing to respond to the proposal by the SH guys. Shame they arent giving it some priority considering you have an EBA on the way.

[qcc2]

the respone from our resident lh faaa excecs is.........................?

it would be intersting to read to full document. the reason why s/h had an increase in numbers is simple. they lowered the bar substiantialy in terms of wages & conditions.:{

[lowerlobe]

To max and the chief and all those in the FAAA headquaters at Control.

Raise the cone of slience and let us know what you guys are doing and what has been proposed.

Let us know what the S/H union suggested and what you guys are going to do about it.

As Max would say "Missed by that much"

[DEFCON4]

An amalgamation between the two divisions was tried about 10 years ago and it failed due to the recalcitrance of shorthaul.
The shorthaul secretary proclaims the outstanding success of the division.
1.MAM casuals
2.Regional flying..loss of family friendly flying
3.A reduction in days off per month
4.A reduction in wages
I would to hate hear Watkins version of failure
I await the yelps of small barking dogs...here they come

[PER210]

With regards to Qantas only hiring casual CC these days... I was just wondering, what would to rough salary be of a casual cc (PM me if not wanted to post on here) and how many hours they would fly. I have wanted to work for Qantas as long as i have known they've existed (when i was 8... i lived in a country town and had no idea about planes! what a deprived child... lol). I still want to work for them desperately, although... I wont be able to do so if i cant make a decent living out of it. Any help? cheers! :)
Aaron :ok:

[RedTBar]

The unification of the 2 unions would certainly be problematic.However,if anything is worth doing it is very rare that it will be easy.

I'm sure that the last thing that GD would like would be to have a unified workforce.He excels at dividing various groups and deflecting their attention .

There will obviously be differences in philosophy between the groups but that should not stop us.

Let's not allow politics prevent us from realising the real threat which is the company and not each other.If we allow the company to continue playing one side against the other then it is game over.

[stubby jumbo]

Stating the obvious:
The Union movement's success is based on "collective agreement".

So the announcement by the S/H FAAA to me is showing strategic leadership. As F/A's we are all in the same game now. S/H are doing traditional long haul flying and vice versa.

Now, is the time to negotiate a combined agreement AND negotiate HARD.

Brown and his IR team have numerous battles ahead over the next few months, namely the Tech Crew EBA, Ramp staff EBA's, ASU, Work Choices etc etc. His subversive plan of divide & conquer has instilled a cultute of real fear amongst the QF work force.

Therefore, we have a choice.
1. Take him -head on, with a clear combined strategy of growth and job security. OR.....
2. Roll over/bend over and give in to his bullying tactics that will lead to AWA's, cuts in conditions/take home pay and the end of a career at QF as a F/A.

I reckon its time to; ( using a metaphor) "turn the lights back ON for take off and landing" AND combine the intellectual and financial resources of both FAAA's and to give Brown a Xmas message that will not be:

HO, HO , HO.:E

[mach2male]

The Lions and the Christians getting together to take on the Romans.

[lowerlobe]

Mach2male,

Thanks for your view of the state of play but as we all know the Roman empire fell in the end so nothing is impossible .

[missleadfoot]

I also heard a rumour that AO crew in Cairns could be spread accross the network, some in SYD, MEL, PER, but hey just a rumour. There has not been a word from management but we are used to being the last to find out anything relating to our position. But out of the 300 cabin crew who are based in Cairns not all would be willing to relocate as many of the base are Cairns locals or interstaters who have made Cairns home and have no reason or desire to move south or west, so saying that I would estimate only around 200 would be affected, then there are those who would gladly accept VR if offered again so in reality closing the base wouldn't be dramatic except for those of us who do want to move and keep flying. Personally I would go wherever they put me, as long as I keep my job. I don't want another move but if I get to keep my job I would be willing to move anywhere. It just doesn't make sense to keep Cairns open as all flights we operate (except KIX and NGO) originate in SYD or BNE. It would be reassuring to know that our experience representing Qantas doesn't end with a thankyou letter that says "best wishes for the future", I seriously want to continue flying, it is what I do and it is what I have done for 14 years. I really hope that Qantas come through for us because at the moment I am living day to day, worried about my job and it's a horrible situation to be in.

[RedTBar]

Missleadfoot,

I understand your position but if you listened to every rumour in this job you would be a basket case within a month or two.

I think it was George Washington who said "Pray to God but keep your Gun powder dry" so just keep flying and enjoying your job but always have a plan 'B' .

[YONLY]

Well said RedTBar.

[TightSlot]

The quotation reads..
"Put your trust in God, but keep your powder dry." and was attributed (falsely) to Oliver Cromwell - for those interested see HERE (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Oliver_Cromwell)

It was good advice then and is so now - thanks RedTBar

[PER210]

Hey, Just wondering. Does MAM provide the Casual QF employees sick leave or annual leave? And what are the chances of progressing up to parttime/fulltime through MAM? Will QF ever hire again or its all going through MAM now (to the best of your knowledge obviously... no one knows what QF are going to do forever)...And another question, if you work QFLink, can you progress to QFS/L Haul part/full time? Or Qantas is no longer hiring fulltime/part time AT ALL?
Cheers for your help,
PER210

[sydney s/h]

PER210,

go to the MAM posts and read there mate.

Lots of info.

[Pegasus747]

The back pay on Allowances for LH crew was done about a month ago. Leanne i think you are Jetconnect crew from memory. You would have to check the clause in your EBA on allowances to see if you entitled to back pay.

[Sonique]

Just announed this morning. JQI to take over CNS-NGO and CNS-KIX flights from QF(AO) from Aug/Sep next year.

Alternate flying to be found for the CNS base crew.

Will be very interesting to see the japs paying for food and drink on long haul. They already want 3 blankets to themselves on a night time flight, which of course they will now have to pay for.

Good on you QF and JQI ! You are doing Australian tourism well ! :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[RedTBar]

It looks as though some crew are trying to make some extra money for Christmas.I was just looking at EBay and noticed an E.P's manual cover for sale and an old Yves Saint laurant overcoat up for grabs as well.Some time ago someone was trying to sell one of the Long Service badges.

Maybe some of the VR recipients are boosting their coffers

[missleadfoot]

Well it certainly didn't take long for my feelings to be realised, 2 days maybe!! Find out today we are losing 50% of our flying. I know I am fairly predictable but this is incredible. I think I have discovered my new talent!!

[OCCR]

what are you worried about missleadfoot and sonique you will take QFLH flying as you have done in the past!

[spunksta22]

Hey all, just wanna hear wat trips mel base SH do? roughly how many overnites do they get er month and which are the more frequent destinations? Someone must know! Cheers

[stubby jumbo]

Firstly Spunkstar.....re: MEL S/H flying.
Easy answer..........MEL-SYD-MEL-SYD-MEL-SYD-MEL-SYD-MEL.....that just about does it.......exciting eh!!!!!

Speaking of the MEL base.
GOOD NEWS for those ex PER long haulers wanting to get back to the state where real estate prices jumped by 45% last year. They are able to transfer back to PER S/H.
Obviously this WAS initially offered to them when the Base was closed down....BUT they thought the "grass was greener" on the East coast !!!!!

Another rumour from someone in the know -Geoff was NOT HAPPY about the ACCC draft ruling again denying a tie up with our Kiwi cousins-Air NZ. Word is -QF have spent more than $8m in legal bills trying to grease it thru.

So thats it !!!

Dixon apparently is now going to plan #B. That is, a commercial tie up with..............wait for it.................SQ!!!!!!!!!!!

Air NZ apparently will be signing up a new deal with Virgin/Pacific Blue for their domestic feed.

Interesting to see how it all pans out...... now that Jet* are spreading all over SE Asia/ Japan/Asia and soon to be the world!!!:{ :{

[H_Girl]

The grass was never "that greener" just a decision made with the information given at the time. Simple as that.

[twiggs]

Hey all, just wanna hear wat trips mel base SH do? roughly how many overnites do they get er month and which are the more frequent destinations? Someone must know! Cheers

A quick look at the Dec bid book and this is what I found:
Max overnites: 14
Hotel requirements for month :
ADL 654, AKL 267, BNE 133, BOM 6, CBR 304, CGK 225, CNS 225, DRW 363, HBA 132, HKG 27, OOL 81, PER 414, SIN 125, SYD 203, TSV 131

Sounds alright to me!

[spunksta22]

Hmm, so the mJORITY OF MELB SH tris are just to sydney and back? can u give me an aproximATE NUMBER OF OVERNITES I COULD EXPECT and also LET ME KNOW WHAT THE CITIES THEY OVERNITE IN MORE OFTEN ARE?
Also, anyone that is A MAMER, could you pm me so we can have a chat?
thanks very much for ur help ;)

[sydney s/h]

As a MAMer it will be very difficult to say how many trips etc you will get.

I know in the SYD base alot of them are just doing MEL returns this month - if your a language speaker and you hold an aussie passport then you will prob do some regionals.

Really hard to say as you dont get to bid for any trips - you just get what the allocate you.

A good idea would be to start sleeping with someone in crewing.

[spunksta22]

HAHA, well wen u have morals that wood be outtA the question!!! I do hold japanese language skills and an aussie passport but I'm not sure whether mel mamers do narita yet?
on average would you say id get 8 overnites or 12 or 4? LOL

cheers

[capt.cynical]

"Spunksta"
May I politely suggest you add some literacy to your morals!!
:rolleyes:

[mamslave]

qantas/mam same same, there is more info here related to qf than on the mam forum.

anyways having caught up for lunch with my flying friends, i hear that 2 casuals down in melbourne are in office jobs? is this right? or is it purely gossip? they must be having a field day down there..(flash back to interview in 2002) "you do know that this job is casual and will not lead to any type of employment with qantas"

on another note, my girlfriend said that many of the new contract c crew coming out, belive they are more senior that those who have been there from the start! lots of issues there, and a few arguments in breifings. What is going on? now casuals are arguing with casuals?

Now in regards to what trips you will get spunksta, if you help at every opportunity, dont have a life at all, and develope a relationship with someone in crewing (ie-sex, keep in touch via email etc etc) you will get the best flying! hope that helps, that is what i saw when i was there

[cartexchange]

dear MAM people,
you have your own thread.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2963370#post2963370

click on this, this is a QANTAS thread.........people will be more interested in your posts on THAT thread.

[TightSlot]

Please use the correct MAM thread from now on.

spunksta22 - hard to know which is the more irritating - your inability to make use of English in any recognisable form or your near total lack of knowledge, sensitivity and awareness of the airline and industry that you aspire to join. Take a little time to read and understand the relevant history and issues before you post again.

[flyboynath]

It's quite brutal in here isn't it? I didn't realise the poster had continued posting in here after having 2 others suggest the very same thing.

[qcc2]

well said, tightSlot:D :D :D

[qcc2]

those of you attending the forums with AW have got a little insight in the companies approach to the next eba. as AW pointed out there is a future for lh crew but there are of course some hurdles to overcome(speak cost benefits). they are also not in favour of confrontation (speak AWA's).
in summary the wishlist as i understood it.
more productivity in the next EBA (another 20 hours or so per roster )
long range pay/overtime more likley to be capped or other options.
there are no plans in the next 12 month to promote AKl based crew (watch this space).
slipping formula to go
the A380 will have a dedicated crew.
the A380 flies slower then the 747. longer TOD.
more flexibility, more parttime possible for all categories.

[stubby jumbo]

.....like you QCC I found the AW forums interesting....in fact I was facinated as to what she DID NOT say!!!

Clearly her experience in the trenches up at BA for 10 years has made her a very polished performer, and unlike Kylie , she can hold her own when under intense attack and not make up stuff for the sake of it just to appease the audience at the time ( read :Kylie in Perth 21/06/2003: "Oh no we love the Perth base-it will be staying !!!! ") -yeah right !

Anyway, the rumours around "other " cut backs for crew that she did not mention:
*Transport only offered for LAX's/SFO directs and TOD's >14hrs.
* 3 star Hotels to be the standard.
*No cash allowances-all crew to be issued with a Debit card with port allowance cap's ( ATO would love this one !!! )
* Reintroducing Casuals for L/H.( we still may see Spunkstar spreading her verbage on board some day!):rolleyes:

The above 4 were mumbled to me from my manager early this year as "options the company were considering".

[lowerlobe]

qcc2 ,

It is interesting when you say AW believes that the company is not interested in confrontation but after 30 years with the company I'd have to disagree with that .

The reason I don't think we will see AWA's yet is that the goverment does not want that to happen wholesale until after the next election for obvious reasons.

It does not take a rocket scientist to know that they want our slipping formula as they have wanted that for many years.

Although they cannot with any ease lower our allowances they can however change the way it is given.

The other usuals such as Long Range allowance and overtime as well as hotels are also obvious targets but unless they are going to have crew for the 380 on a similar set up to J* international then you would think the extra cost of having a dedicated crew would be prohibitive.Then again it is QF we are talking about so nothing should surprise us.That would also give the company one more group to play divide and conquer with.

The faaa have been very quiet as usual so we will probably just have to wait and see what comes up.

It also worries me just a bit that the union will come to us and say "We have some great news guys we managed to get the company down to 240 hours when they wanted 300 hours at the start as well 5000 crew in LHR and FRA and we got them down to 2000 and overtime will now be after 15 hours instead of 17 so we have had a HUGE WIN and strongly recommend that you vote for this EBA."

It is a little like being threatened with death and when you only get shot in the leg ,you think you have won.

[qcc2]

the wishlist is a lot longer. anything where they see saving money they will table at negotiations.
the proposed A380 dedicated crew is in my view the outcome of:
a) casa wants a limit of aircraft crew can operate on
b)stop senior crew from monopolising lax trips
C) more consistancy in delivering the product
the hotel issue has to be fought vigirously. again the faaa lh is going to be in a difficult position as the domestic union signed of the ibis hotel.
debit cards are a pain as the checkin/ckeckout time will triple.
the cost comparison graphs AW showed us are flawed to a certain extend.
here the faaa lh has a chance to get some leverage (pay someone to get all the appropriate research in cost comparison) some of the numbers MM brought up at the meetings are fundamentaly wrong. pay someone to do the research.:*

[surfside6]

Six Years seniority will get you a LAX trip.
Maybe not on Monday..but you will get them
SFO?...well thats another story

[lowerlobe]

WE all know or at least suspect that the company likes to annoy senior crew but I don't think there would be many senior crew wanting to fly the 380.

Then again if the 380 does all the long trips and that means LHR , FRA , LAX ,SFO etc maybe they will because they might not have any choice.The mothers club certainly will not.

This is of course supposing that the 380 even arrives at all

After looking at that computer course "where experience is everything" or whatever and the company telling us that the "Australian cabin crew arew very much an adantage in customer service" and then going out of their way to hire off shore you might imagine that service consistency is not one of their priorities

[twiggs]

The slipping formula, as it stands, will be very hard to retain as it applies regardless of the fatigue factor of the previous sectors.

If we are to keep it in any form, it has to be modified so that the long slip is positioned when it is needed most, eg. after a night sector with a long TOD.

As it stands now, it doesn't even benefit us in some cases, as it is often placed after an easy day sector, when the following sector is the arduous one.

Also the minimum length of it being 46hrs is probably difficult to justify.

[lowerlobe]

And behold the company has just spoken!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[DEFCON4]

AW(akaThe Fat Contoller)is like all QF management a "short termist"
Qantas is a top down company where Dixon dishes out the orders and the minions do as they are told..without question
AW has a family and ambition and realises she has a 3 to 5 tenure.
So she gets in there, implements the grand plan, makes as many bucks as possible and buggers off.
She is nothing more than an eloquent Iron Fist in a Velvet glove.
She does NOT give a rats rectum about morale because it doesnt exist.
Fear and intimidation are the only management tools.
Just ask the CSM who told a joke about Dixon in a briefing...the brownshirts came down on him like a ton of bricks.
The Irony of it all?...Dixon IS a bloody joke!!!

[qcc2]

it is back. thanks twigg. so what you are saying is only certain long range sectors have a right to have more then whatever you regard as minimum rest.
then you end up doing trips like our kiwi friends lax back then up to asia and back with one day slips.
LL the A380 will be on the mel/syd -Lax and LHR via sin/hkg sectors. SFO/JFK/ will continue to have the 747. Fra is another story. rumor has it the yields aren't good enough and may move to J* by 2010.:{

[twiggs]

it is back. thanks twigg. so what you are saying is only certain long range sectors have a right to have more then whatever you regard as minimum rest.
then you end up doing trips like our kiwi friends lax back then up to asia and back with one day slips.
{

I didn't mention min rest after long range, only slipping formula.

[stubby jumbo]

The slipping formula, as it stands, will be very hard to retain as it applies regardless of the fatigue factor of the previous sectors.
Also the minimum length of it being 46hrs is probably difficult to justify.
..................'difficult to justify-ARE YOU KIDDING ME.

try doing a few back to back Joburgs and then tell me whether the 46 hrs is ..........."difficult to justify".

Twiggs.........go for a wander up on QCC/4-there is a spare office up there next to AW-with people like you giving advice-we're better off packing our bags now and working for Kingfisher Airlines!!!!:ugh: :ugh:

[twiggs]

try doing a few back to back Joburgs and then tell me whether the 46 hrs is ..........."difficult to justify".

You guys don't seem to understand what I am saying when I mention the slipping formula.
What I am referring to is the 1 in three, then 1 in 2 , must be greater than 46hrs.

It has nothing to do with JoBergs as they are predominantly 1 slip trips.
(Although the minimum rest in JOBerg is only 36 hrs anyway)

[ozskipper]

The latest I've heard is that:

-Seniority for bidding will go
-Divisor will go up to around 220-240

Apparently, removing seniority for bidding will allow for a more effective utilisation of crew and subsequently allow for the divisor to be raised. So instead of being able to bid for all NRT and your days off, you'll be allocated a "fair share" of trips and days off (which will maximise you're duty hours).

Again, this is just port gossip, but it came from a reasonably good source who has been reliable with information in the past.

[lowerlobe]

Certainly ,bidding without seniority is one of the possibilities that "Carmen" is capable of and it can do it in a number of ways.

However,the seniority issue has little to do with the divisor or the generation of trips but is just another way of annoying senior crew as the same trips to NRT still have to be done.However,it would make the junior crew happy especially the ones that are coming back from LHR if they have that to look foward to.

So basically Ozskipper up there in the old dart is opening the old can of worms regarding seniority again..oh well it has to come up now and again I suppose and if someone is going to tell us we get too much in the way of allowances or slip time we might as well hear this one again

[blackguard]

Remove the bid system and sick leave will become endemic.
Many flight attendants who both fly and have children rely on the bid system to organize their lives.
For these people(and there are a great number)removal of seniority/bid system would create absolute chaos and hardship.
But then again the Black Widow and the Fat Contoller dont care.

[Shlonghaul]

Just received another letter from the company about directed LSL, (did'nt we just have about 400 crew leave with a VR package??!!), this time from the Tarantula, and thoughtfully some application forms. How considerate of her and how on earth did she know I was running short of toilet paper as the CC Ops manual is down to the last few pages??!! :yuk: :bored: := :E

Believe the poms during WW2 had a night time torpedo raid on Taranto...he..he...heee :E :E

[lowerlobe]

Yes it is great isn't it Schlonghaul,

I'm waiting for someone here to suggest that we forego a certain amount of our accrued LSL in our negotiations with the company so as to retain our flying.

The part about the LSL that staff have accrued is that it is not costing the company anything as long as it is on paper.They are asking us to use it so they are paying us for it at any rate and as you pointed out they have just had around 400 take VR and now they still say they have too much crew.

The only reason I can see that the company has to reduce the level of accrued LSL is if they are intending to sell the company or at least a large portion of it and want the paper value of QF to involve as little inherited debt.In other words to get as much for the company as possible they want to reduce any unpaid debt.

If they have no intention of selling the company or altering the level of ownership then whether you take your LSL now or next year is of no consequence to the company as long as they have the crew to meet operational requirements at that point.

[ozskipper]

Certainly ,bidding without seniority is one of the possibilities that "Carmen" is capable of and it can do it in a number of ways.
So basically Ozskipper up there in the old dart is opening the old can of worms regarding seniority again..oh well it has to come up now and again I suppose and if someone is going to tell us we get too much in the way of allowances or slip time we might as well hear this one again

Lowerlobe you have known me long enough on here to know that I don't post on here to deliberately wind things up.

The above information came from a discussion I had while in a slip port with an Australian based crew member I've flown with on numerous occasions who is seemingly very well connected. Whether there is seniority or not is completely irrelevant to me to be honest - I knew what I was getting myself in for when I joined Qantas.

Personally, I still think it's a bit unfair on junior crew when there is no possibility of our global seniority rising in the next few years, but hey it's a personal opinion and I'm just sharing what I've heard lately. :)

[Butterfield8]

I have been junior in my category for 18 years...I live with it.
Juniority,seniority..so what? I have a job,my super is growing and I earn good bucks.
I accept my opportunity for promotion is non existant..big deal.
Change what you have and what works and these management swine will use it against you.
They have done it time after time and we have helped them do it.
We have been complicit in our own demise because of our selfishness,stupidity and total lack of unity.
The stuff that masquerades as opinion in this forum only verifies that.
We all do the same job and thats where the cohesion ends.
In western society the self comes first and we get done over because of it.
Eventually everyone leaves and seniority improves by attrition.
Junior now..senior tomorrow..gee I wish we had kept the bid system and seniority.
Dont think short term like the jerks you work for......you WILL regret it..fact

[Bad Adventures]

From today's Sydney Morning Hearld

Jetstar's aim to have a 40 per cent lower cost base than Qantas will be primarily helped by the lower wages and working conditions offered to its staff.

Jetstar long-haul flight attendants are expected to work around 30 per cent more hours than their Qantas counterparts and earn a base pay of $32,500 a year, around 35 per cent lower than Qantas crews.

They also are entitled to less sick and long service leave, and have their redundancy provisions capped at 16 weeks pay. This compares with 95 weeks for Qantas flight attendants. Jetstar long-haul crews, unlike Qantas crews, also do not have minimum standards of accommodation stipulated in their labour agreements. The airline is also looking to tighten its relationship with Qantas's 44.5 per cent Singapore Jetstar franchise in order to cut costs.

[lowerlobe]

Butterfield8,

Well said and just like those who say our slipping formula cannot be justified we will end up doing something like...

SYD/MEL/ADL/SIN...one night slip

SIN/ADL/MEL...one night slip

MEL/ADL/SIN....one night slip

SIN/ADL/BNE...one night slip....etc...etc...etc...Wouldn' that be fun

If you give the company one cm they will want 10 cm.They are addicted to taking and we can only negotiate from a position of strength.

To appease an aggressor will only make the aggressor more aggressive. (try saying that after a drink or two)

[lowerlobe]

Leanee7,
I agree with you 100% but you are missing the entire point of the exercise .
J* is not about a better deal for the punter as advertised airfares show and as it is only contributing 1.6% to total group profit , it is not about the share holder.

The entire purpose of J* is about lowering the pay and conditions of S/H and L/H QF staff ,he tried first with AO and did not get it right but learnt from his mistakes and gave birth to J*.Therefore Darth does not give a rats backside about the inconvenienced traveller ,he is only looking at the benefit gained from staff lowering their T & C's to retain their job.

What I would love to see is another airline starting up where the board and other senior managers are paid substantially less than QF's board.Then Darth would have to explain why he and the others are paid more unfortunately he has a monopoly so this is just wishfull thinking.

[twiggs]

Butterfield8,
Well said and just like those who say our slipping formula cannot be justified we will end up doing something like...
SYD/MEL/ADL/SIN...one night slip
SIN/ADL/MEL...one night slip
MEL/ADL/SIN....one night slip
SIN/ADL/BNE...one night slip....etc...etc...etc...Wouldn' that be fun


I wish you people would take the time to read my posts.

What I am trying to say is that the best way of retaining a slipping formula, is to adjust it so that it is based on giving additional rest when it is needed.

Under our present system, we end up with trips like this:

SYD-DRW (short day sector) 24 hrs
DRW-SIN (another short day sector) 48hrs
SIN-DRW-ADL-MEL (night multi sector) 24 hrs
MEL-SIN (arduous day sector) 24 hrs
SIN-SYD

this trip does not give the long slip when it is needed, ie in MEL after the night multi sector.

The only way to argue for a slipping formula is to base the argument on the need for additional rest in a multi slip trip like this in an appropriate place.

If you are going to criticize my posts, don't read into them what is not there in the first place.

[Simon Templar]

You should make your posts less ambiguous,better thought out and clearer in their intent...then perhaps you wont be misunderstood.

[flyboynath]

So did you understand that post or not?

[lowerlobe]

Twiggs,

It is you that does not read and more importantly understand or care to understand posts by others.

I did not misunderstand you ..just re read what you have posted...

"will be very hard to retain as it applies regardless of the fatigue factor of the previous sectors."
Also the minimum length of it being 46hrs is probably difficult to justify."

You have just said the current slipping formula will be hard to retain regardless of fatigue and that 2 local nights which you have eqauted to 46 hours is difficult to justify.. So you don't believe that we need the 1,1,2 formula and the company has the right to not only question it but take it away. That is where I extrapolated my post regarding a possible trip with the 2 local nights removed.

The company adheres to the current slipping formula just not to the previous sector but also to what is the cheapest port to slip the crew.The company does not care whether or not you have a good nights sleep or whether you want to catch up with friends in Mel or wherever.The company is not a travel agency and is only interested in getting the maximum benefit from any rules and regulations they are forced to adhere to.

If we give away the 1,1,2 slipping pattern the company will introduce what they want and since there is no real protection from CASA guess what patterns we will get? Exactly what I posted and people like you will say but we need rest!!!!

As `it stands the company will not give you your 2 local nights because you have had a long day but because it is cheaper in some ports than others.

While we are on the subject and if you are indeed currently employed as cabin crew why did you suggest that the jump seats were perfectly suitable for crew rest.If you are so interested in re arranging our slipping formula to have suitable rest when we need it then it seems at odds with your sentiment.

I can see you emailing the moderator about this to get this post deleted as well

As far as reading into your posts is concerned only you know what you are thinking so don't spit the dummy in here.......................

is that clear enough

[twiggs]

I am only suggesting that we must try to negotiate an agreement that gives sufficient rest when appropriate, not an agreement that can be utilised by the company to give rest when it suits them.

My comment about the crew rest seats was tongue in cheek, but I will refrain from such irony in the future, as it is lost on the pack of wolves that roam in here.

By the way, the slipping formula dictates 46 hrs minimum, not 2 local nights.
It seems that you don't even know what is in our EBA, so how on earth is any rational debate or negotiation going to take place if you don't even know what you are talking about.

[Simon Templar]

In any 46 hour period arent there 2 local sunsets(nights)?
Unless of course you live in the Arctic circle.

[Shlonghaul]

[QUOTE=twiggs;]
My comment about the crew rest seats was tongue in cheek, but I will refrain from such irony in the future, as it is lost on the pack of wolves that roam in here.

:ugh: :ugh:


Perhaps we could have our 46 hour slip strapped into the crew rest seat? Tongue in cheek?......woof....woof....woof

Lowerlobe & Simon T when you're on a good thing stick to it! :ok:

[lowerlobe]

Uhhh Twiggs sorry to remind you of your own post but you said that it would be difficult to justify a 46 hour slip…so much for caring about crew rest

Actually Twiggs if you know anything about the award regarding the 1,1,2 slipping pattern you would know that the 46 hour amount is meant to equate to 2 local nights (slowly now ...think about it) but obviously you are just reading it verbatim .It has been that way long before enterprise bargaining was thought of .However unless you know of somewhere that 46 hours does not include 2 local nights ( that we have slip ports in I mean ) then reading the EBA will not do you any good at all. !!!!

As far as your sense of irony is concerned does also that mean the post ( which said that it was not the money that is important but the destination) is ironic as well. Twiggs only you know what is going on inside your head because it is not apparent here.

It is not that we are wolves but if you are going to enter into a debate then your posts have to make sense.

[twiggs]

actually 46 hrs equates to a minimum of 2 nights and 2 days, not to be confused with minimum rest after long range which is 36 hrs or 2 LOCAL NIGHTS.

[lowerlobe]

OK so first we have from Twiggs...

" By the way, the slipping formula dictates 46 hrs minimum, not 2 local nights."

Then in just over an hour later we get this again from Twiggs...

" actually 46 hrs equates to a minimum of 2 nights and 2 days "

Twiggs posts have no point ,no relevance , no direction and contradict most of her previous posts except that now she seems to be trying to rework the Gregorian calendar.

[twiggs]

I am trying to highlight that when you refer to "2 local nights", it implies you are referring to min rest after long range as that is the terminology used.

The min rest for 1 slip in 3 for slipping formula is about 10 hours more.

[Shlonghaul]

Think it might be time to move on to something else........and take on our common enemy

[lowerlobe]

Happy to oblige Schlonghaul;

There is an interesting post in the D & G reporting forums .Go to the morale at Qantas thread and look for the letter a retired Capt sent to the CEO of UA.

It's funny but the description of the CEO sounds just like ours.... very interesting reading. I wonder if Darth gets any letters like this one ?

[stubby jumbo]

Tight slot... t'was wondering whether you could do us all a favour and start a new thread called:

TWIGGS

This way she could talk to her self and reply to her own posts.

will make great reading.

Word of advice: ensure spellcheck/grammar check/meaning check/ is enabled!!:8

[cartexchange]

come on guys, you have to admit Twiggs's posts are every amusing.
How can you forget the line "its not the money but the destinations"
That is one of the funniest things I have heard in a very long time.
its was a precious post!

[TightSlot]

Move on, please :zzz:

[Tropicalchief]

It seems to me that a lot is being asked of the FAAA, considering the amount of criticism it receives in this forum. In the present industrial climate, and in a company that is highly unionised, a united response is required, from the pilots, engineers, flight attendants, ground staff and everyone else that is directly employed by QF.

Managements despicable attitude towards its employees, which is nothing new, has to be tackled head on by everyone involved for the reason that you all have a common enemy. Instead of pursuing separate agendas on T & C's, it should be for the removal of the present administrative regime. If the shareholders become aware of the current level of discontent within the workforce and the possibility of a massive all-out confrontation with management, a change may be affected by the people whose interests GD and the Board purports to represent and protect.

Clearly, GD and his mates don't give a damn about QF employees and it may help if their contempt for you was reciprocated in a very public way.
From my perspective, and I have been out for a few years now but I keep in touch with what is happening, if you don't fight collectively for what you have, you will be bullied, threatened and coerced in to surrendering. If there is one thing I know for sure about QF management it is that they are afraid of the truth and adverse public opinion.

[qcc2]

however the union has a lot to answer for eg. the keep telling us that lh is more expensive then sh. according to the company this is not the case (source:forum). the annual duty times between the airlines ( showed at the forums) are also very flawed. If they would get their act together and spend some money on proper research they might find a different set of numbers. INSTEAD OF USING THE COMPANIES LINE OF DOOM AND GLOOM do something productive.
as for the LHR base the aus based crews had enough, they want to come home.
one thing i found out about the London base which really TICKED ME OFF BIG TIME is their CSM's can purchase FIRST CLASS TICKETS ON QF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

[Shlonghaul]

After a news report this morning mentioning a possible takeover of Qantas have just seen that the share price is over five dollars. It has'nt been that high in years!! The jigsaw puzzle is falling into place.

[qcc2]

SYDNEY, Nov 22 (Reuters) - Macquarie Bank Ltd. (MBL.AX: Quote, Profile, Research) and private equity group Texas Pacific Group [TPG.UL] are preparing a buyout proposal for Qantas Airways Ltd. (QAN.AX: Quote, Profile, Research), the Australian Financial Review reported on Wednesday.

The paper said market sources are saying it is not a question of if Macquarie is working on a bid, but when it is ready to pounce, and added that senior market players were taking seriously rumours of a bid of A$5.20 a share, valuing Qantas at nearly A$10 billion ($7.7 billion).

Qantas shares closed at A$4.35 on Tuesday.

The deal, although fraught with political difficulties, would involve Macquarie and associates taking a 25 percent stake in Qantas, other Australian investors taking 25 percent, Qantas senior management being asked to take 1 percent and international players, led by Texas Pacific, taking the rest, the paper said.



That mix would allow the consortium to get round ownership restrictions that limit one individual entity to no more that 25 percent of the airline, and international interests collectively owning no more that 49 percent.

Qantas executives acknowledged the speculation, but declined to comment, the paper said.

The AFR reported earlier in November that a private equity group was eyeing Qantas, sending shares in the airline sharply higher.

the 1 percent for management means 100 million dollars as another way of bonuses. time to get the pollies reved up.:=

[sydney s/h]

Regarding this whole potential takeover by Macquarie etc... I hate to say it but ... maybe better the devil you know.

**** - i cant believe i am saying something in support of that jerk Dixon.


And whats this about the UK CSM's being able to purchase a first class ticket!?! Are you serious?!

[lowerlobe]

As I mentioned earlier maybe this is why the company has and is wanting to get rid of as much LSL as possible.They want to make the company's financial position LOOK as good as possible with as little outstanding debt for any investor...

Tropicalchief,
I could not agree more and that is why I have been calling for the FAAA to have a publicity campaign to expose the greed which pervades the QF boardroom. If they could do this in unison with other QF unions then so much the better and maybe even the ACTU.

One of the problems though is the memory with other unions of the 1981 dispute when from memory we went back to work before some of the other QF unions that walked out supporting us.

However the FAAA reps here have argued before that it will do no good and they know how to deal with the company and so as I said before...

It also worries me just a bit that the union will come to us and say "We have some great news guys we managed to get the company down to 240 hours when they wanted 300 hours at the start as well 5000 crew in LHR and FRA and we got them down to 2000 and overtime will now be after 15 hours instead of 17 so we have had a HUGE WIN and strongly recommend that you vote for this EBA."....

The problem is that the FAAA likes to do all the talking behind closed doors and let's us know after a deal has been made and It's like being shot in the leg and feeling as though you have won because you are not dead.

[qcc2]

LHR based CSM's can purchase first class tickets. my friend was recently on a trip where an ex sh f/a now lh lhr based csm travelled in style in pc. ever so curios the crew grilled the individual and he confirmed the deal.It stinks!!!!:ugh: :ugh: :ugh:
LL , it is now imperative the QF unions including the actu start a publicity campaign. been subject to a take over by yanks can never be a good thing:=
They would brake up the company to get return on their investments. lets have a look

star trak ...listed on the asx as seperate entity
QF catering... sold to whoever
Jetstar domestic, international, asia listed on the asx as seperate entity
Qf holidays ... sold
QF domestic terminals...sold
QF FF flyer program ...sold
QF engineering.(whats left)...sold
QF Cargo ops...sold
QF ground operations...sold
50% air express....sold or listed with star track
QF mainline ???????

[surfside6]

I call OPS about once a year.
Is it my imagination or are they ruder and more unhelpful than ever.?
Ring to get some information and its like you are interrupting them having a bonk.
If it wasnt for crew these turkeys wouldnt have a bloody job.
The disease Dixon has is spreading like wildfire through these groundhogs.

[stubby jumbo]

...............the reality of having the Chainsaw ( CEO of SACL -Macquarie Airports) being involved in Qantas ( speculation) is too frightening to even contemplate.

This bloke has NO boundaries.:mad: :mad:

He refers to his "people" as UNITS OF WORK.

Be very careful what you wish for.

Apologies Mr Dixon.............all is forgiven-proceed with the rampage.:cool:

[roamingwolf]

It looks as though we are about to be caught between a rock and a hard place.

Has anyone considered that GD has had a hand in this and there is a job waiting for him at macquarie Bank.

He certainly would like the pay scale for execs there.:\

[1niteinbkk]

macq.bank + qf = corporation that only puts needs of shareholders 1st b4 those of staff:bored:

so will this mean selling financial or investment products as part of the inflight service routine then? :eek:

[Lurker@L5]

LOL - with this threatened take -over bid -NOW the politicians are saying that they are worried about(quote) " TAKING THE KANGAROO OUT OF QANTAS"
Sorry boys -but Qantas Senior Management have been doing this by stealth -with full Federal Govt support - these last few years ......

SAWADEECUP! FUSH & CHUPS ANYONE??

[1niteinbkk]

Sorry boys -but Qantas Senior Management have been doing this by stealth -with full Federal Govt support - these last few years ......


why of course - they have much to gain with their shares etc etc :suspect:

[ozskipper]

LHR based CSM's can purchase first class tickets. my friend was recently on a trip where an ex sh f/a now lh lhr based csm travelled in style in pc. ever so curios the crew grilled the individual and he confirmed the deal.It stinks!!!!:ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

I'm not sure this accurate - I rang my mate who is a CSM up here and he can only buy J/C. So, just to be sure I rang Staff Travel who confirmed that LHR based CSM's cannot buy P/C and in fact they have 1 upgrade priority point lower than AUS based CSM's.

Perhaps the CSM your friend was talking to might have been blowing their own trumpet a little bit.

[surfside6]

There are about 6 or 7 LH CC posters in these forums..not all are FAAA members.
This small group could hardly be considered indicative of LH CC in general.
Most current LH CC have no idea or knowledge of the 1981 SP dispute....so they can hardly be held accountable.
It was a regrettable situation and most if not all of the individuals concerned have since left.
The self appointed keeper of the moral high ground..Mr Lert can be best characterised as a bitter old person who has way too much time on his hands and nothing positive to say about anything or anyone.
The SP event occurred almost a generation ago....time we moved on.

[lowerlobe]

Surfside,

I agree it is time to move on however my point was that there are some long memories in the union movement .This is one reason why I believe that there is no solidarity within QF as far as unions go or at least seemingly so.

You only have to remember the strikebreakers being trained and bused to the jetbase at night not even 2 years ago to see how we are perceived.

As far as the current leadership is concerned they have exactly the same attitude as the ones in 81 and that is my concern as my memory is still vivid of that stupidity

[roamingwolf]

I think surfside is right and it is time to move on.

[sydney s/h]

Guys,

with this news about Macq bank etc i reckon its pretty important for all QF staff to stick together.

I know you think we (SH) are a bunch of pricks for a whole bunch of reasons and thats understandable but maybe we should be seriously banding together quite soon.

You guys (LH) are going to be heading into EBA negotiations over the next 12months - rumours of higher hours/roster, seniority etc etc are important items and if we support you guys then it might go towards repairing some damage that has been done between the 2 divisions.

[qcc2]

ozskipper i had another person mailing me telling me also he had lhr based csm's in pc. they also told her that they are allowed to purchase pc seats. somewhere there is a little rort going on.
s/h, thats where the company wants lh to follow sh with the eba. longer hours, allowances paid in at home, no slipping formula,etc. unfortunatly as i said before sh union set bar lower again which makes it very hard for us to negotiate. support us, yes, but what do you suggest?
as for the yanks& mac bank bid this will change everthing. regardless of the outcome there will be permanent changes. i predict J* will float, startrack & air express will follow on the exchange, catering will be sold, engineering will be outsourced, and of course pilots & cabin crew will have it a lot harder to get a decent deal:ugh:
i think everyone should send an email to kim beazley
[email protected]

[sydney s/h]

QCC,

I know this is no help whatsoever, but im not sure what we can do to offer support.
I hope that the powers to be (FAAA officials who i pay) can offer advice, support etc if the LH division asks for it.

Hey the SH FAAA are good at fisting us so maybe they can work their evil negotiating skills into something good and help the LH division as well!

[RedTBar]

I know I am an enternal optimist but this may just work out for the better.

We all know that our boss set up J* to lower our conditions and use it against us.

If the takeover eventuates and the new owners do what they normally do after taking over they may sell off any part of the QF group that is not making any REAL money.

If J* is not making much money compared to QF mainline then they might sell it and keep the one part making a decent profit and that is us.

I agree with qcc2's sentiment but Kim Beazley has enough problems trying to stay as leader of the opposition.

[qcc2]

opinion this is kim's chance to get on the front page and raising his somewhat lagging profile. the publicity experts from the party could very well make this take over look bad in the national interest. doing nothing does nothing for him or his profile.:rolleyes:

[sydney s/h]

On ninemsn.com.au they ran a poll today asking if people want QF to be taken over...

The results were.....

No - 3514
Yes - 26295

30,000 votes in one day indicate the public do give somewhat of a rats arse about our company..

Why arent the Labour party, FAAA and other unions running with this?!

[peanut pusher]

As you know I'm a LHR CSM and the staff travel is exactly the same as Aus based crew.
I can only purchase a ticket in J class but was once given a broken P class seat with no IFE or table and no refund.
Your info. is 100% incorrect.:ugh:

[cartexchange]

hey sydney sh
I think there is a typo is you post.

it should read

Should Qantas be sold?
4192 YES

30909 NO

:ok:

[qcc2]

pp then those csm's travelled in pc ( i have been told of 3 ex-sh guys, not on the same trip)have somewhat rorted the system and lied to their fellow crew members. := :=
s/h the average minor shareholder wont give a t... short term about qf and its future. if they are offered $ 5.50 a share or as much as $6.00 they take the money and run. GD and the pollies main worry will be the publicity this generates. The board most likely recommends an offer of $6.00. however as with most of these deals its the employees which will take the pain. apart from the 3 billion cost saving (sustainable futures program) the company wants to have by next year, that deal would require to get at least 1 billion in cash to the raiders every year for the next 4-6 years. where from? sale,sale,sale, and reduce costs even further.:ugh:
the AIPA president comments were, he wants a share in the deal?:*

[Pegasus747]

Just thought that you would like to know that re the proposed purchase of Qantas, MM from the FAAA was intervied by a number of media outlets and was heard on 2UE.

The Media are not interested when the Unions talk about job security issues for their members.

However mention sex, strike, or something catchy they will run you as the lead story. Unfortunately the public dont want Qantas sold for parochial reasons. But they always want the promise of cheaper airfares and that's inevitably the spin that the media will run.

At the end of the day i think that the only hope will be the restrictions placed of foriegn ownership. I would also suggest that if the share price rose above $5 the staff (if they havent already sold their shares) would be among the first to sell.

who knows..perhaps the public will really surprise me on this. But when flight attendants threatened induistrial action in 2004 when Qantas was openeing the London base and we were desperate to get another EBA with protections....the caring public couldnt have given a ****e to be quite frank.

At the end of the day most australians want cheap airfares and think that qantas workers are overpaid and over priveleged.

Sad but true

[B A Lert]

....At the end of the day most australians want cheap airfares and think that qantas workers are overpaid and over priveleged.
Sad but true

Sadly Pegasus you are only half right. Shouldn't the end of your quoted post read "At the end of the day most australians want cheap airfares and think that SOME qantas workers are overpaid and over priveleged. Sad but true." ? (Bold indicates what has been edited.)

Why do you think Jetstar has been given so much emphasis by the Qantas M'ment? If all parties were reasonable with "give and take" on both sides, Jetstar, and AO before that, would never have seen the light of day. Sad but true! If this view is what some of you describe as the 'high moral ground', then so be it.

[stubby jumbo]

Sadly Pegasus you are only half right.

SADLY BA LERT......you are 100% WRONG !!!!


The average Aussie does care about the Icon that is Qantas ( eg MSN vote), BUT at the end of the day they want it all for the lowest possible price.

Just have a look around on the road .......how many Hyundai's, Kia's and Protons do you see. ?? All cheap imitations of a quality products ie. Aussie made Holdens and even ( some) Aussie made Toyota's. Why does the average punter buy this rubbish????

= $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$:ugh:

Get in the real world buddy.

Joe Public perceive ALL "crew" as people who swan around the world, stay @ 5-stars and are overpaid.

Our Ace card is the "collective" crew group ( S/H + L/H ).

These circling vultures are only interested in 1 thing-making more money.

You cannot strip much more yield from the assets(aircraft) -they are being flogged already. The ONLY way to gain more money is to strip the workforce down to the barest of margins.

Just read about those who has been involved with this mob ( Continental airlines/US Air staff !!)


On another note, I had a phone call today from my Manager asking me would I like to be part of a "focus group" to help lift crew ENGAGEMENT.

My reply: "I'm too busy............not interested!! ":yuk:

[Pegasus747]

for clarification what is sad is that the public believe it, not that it is true :)

Let's face the facts. Qantas is the most heavily unionised company in australia and yet despite the bleating of some in current management they would have you believe that Qantas suffers as a result of that.

The reality, whilst average incomes in Australia over the last few years have risen by over 4% pa, Qantas workers except for management have restrained themselves to 3% outcomes, a pay freeze for 12 mths and generally since EBA's started have a lower outcome in wages than average Australians.

Having said that Qantas is one of the most profitable airlines in the world, assisted by the level of protection and the demise of AN , but nonetheless its hard to argue that Qantas workers in general are overpaid.

The terms overpaid is one that is very subjective and deals usually with relativities. By Most standards around the world most workers are better off. but isnt that the benefit of living in a Country like Australia.

Personally i dont think that we should have to lower our standards of living because the worlds richest men who live in the shadows can pull a few extra trillion bucks.

Sadly though its the way of the modern world and short of some sort of revolution unlikely to change. We at Qantas just have to accept the reality and not actaully have to like it. But to survive and maintain at least job security we have to be competetive..

[jetstarFA]

We all know that our boss set up J* to lower our conditions and use it against us.
If the takeover eventuates and the new owners do what they normally do after taking over they may sell off any part of the QF group that is not making any REAL money.
If J* is not making much money compared to QF mainline then they might sell it and keep the one part making a decent profit and that is us.


But if one business unit has a lower cost base and doesn't make as much money as the other business unit with a higher cost base what would you do as a CEO of an organisation that wants to increase His/Hers bonus for next year....

If you spend $5 dollars on a Clock that will last you 10 years or spend $10 on a clock that will last 5 years.... Which would you take.... The cheapest long lasting one ?

Qantas thinks nothing of painting a plane and changing a uniform......

Australian/TAA = QF Domestic
Australian = QF operated by Australian
Impulse = Qantaslink
Southern = Eastern
Qantaslink = Jetstar
QF A330 = Jetstar International

This is uncertain times for all in the group including Catering and Holidays as well as Mainline, Regional , Jetstar..

At the end of the day its all about the Fat Cats in CBR and the CEO's making a quick buck before retirement..... ONE GD is skidding out of control towards retirement so an extra $$$$$ mill or 5 inthe bank will do nicely....

The QF brand will remain... We all know that..... WHO will operate it, is anyones guess.....:sad:

[sydney s/h]

Cartex,

The question is....

Should Qantas be sold?

Yes - 6358

No - 46892

figures current at midnight.

And yeap..... typo on my behalf!:ok:

[qcc2]

i use two friends (f/a,s), one in united (after all the chapter 11 restructure) 15 years flying U$ 65000.- (U.S.A. lower tax rates, mortgages tax deductable, even on your investment property,etc.),
another one lufthansa on euro 55000.-, higher taxes,free health care, full pension benefits,etc. :*
are they going bankrupt? no, lets face as peg47 points out the fact Qf is one of the most profitable carriers out there. what is never mentioned is that Qf managment team is on of THE MOST expensive at this point.
what i still dont understand is why ALL QF unions get their act together and start publishing those comparison!!!!!!!!!!!!:{

[lowerlobe]

qcc2,

I could not agree more as I have asked many times of the faaa reps here (who still pretend not to).

It is one of the most basics laws of defence and why we join together as a union instaed of trying to negotiate with the company individually..

One of the oldest sayings around..

"UNITED WE STAND DIVIDED WE FALL"...

Still we get nothing from the FAAA cone of silence...good one guys

[roamingwolf]

Is it true that the office wants volunteers to form a committee to look at ways of reducing sick leave.

One way being looked at is to have a christmas roster . In other words ask who wants to work over Christams and who wants to be at home.

This was mentioned years ago and the company's response was that they were not in the business of pleasing crew so that was that.

Now that they have come up with the same idea it is apparently a great one.....:yuk:

[sydney s/h]

apparently there are more LH - SH tranfers on the way.

The Association has argued and will continue to press for an increase to the full time establishment. In fact it is anticipated transfers will occur shortly from Long Haul and we are hopeful career progression may also be available in the first half of 2007.

[speedbirdhouse]

We know you don't so I'll explain it again for you.

The domestic union negotiated with Qantas to do the 767/A330 international flying for less money than the international flight attendants.

QF transferred as much of that flying to the domestics as it could creating a situation where they now have too many international FAs so instead of having them sit around doing nothing it forces them to take their long service leave.

[lowerlobe]

Hey Roaming,
I like the bit about a group to look at sickies....very funny.

I can guess the subject in the room as they get together.."right now people we need you to tell us about any crew who you hear are going to pull the pin on a trip".....

In fact it will probably be chaired by action jackson or fat boy slim

Then you will get a flurry of arms and hands raised as they try to dob someone in to get ahead themelves.The sad part is that there are enough people as we see here that are more than willing to dob in a fellow crew member.

What do they think they are going to achieve by this ...

[TightSlot]

Folks

I'm closing this thread down. It has become very large and cumbersome, so for housekeeping reasons only, the thread is now closed, and a new thread QANTAS - Australia II has been opened HERE (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=253684). This also seems a suitable time to re-start given the latest develoments in the QF bid.

May the forum mods thank you for your continued restraint when discussing matters QF - It is clearly a challenging time for all QF group staff.