What to say when arriving at a CTR/CTA???

[bg187]

I am just about to get my PPL. I have my qualifying nav on wednesday. I am flying to Durham tees. They have a CTR/CTA. On arriving just outside there area what should i say (RT) to the approach if i am not handed over?? I Will have called in advance but what should my initial contact be with them like? In terms of what should i say. Please be specific if anybody can PLEASE HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Your instructor can help. Ask him/her.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

I offer the same advice. You are paying the money; get the service. Instructors do actually enjoy instructing but, sometimes, you have to ask them.

I wish you good WX and nil snags. Try and relax and enjoy the experience. You will always remember it.

[mark147]

I've never been to Durham but if I did go, I'd do roughly the following:

1. Listen to the ATIS on 136.2 first to get the runway in use and other relevant information, noting the current information letter.

2. Make sure I have some idea where I am.

3. Make an initial call:

"Durham Approach, G-ABCD, inbound."

Durham will reply with something like "G-ABCD, Durham, pass your message".

4. Give a standard response, something like:

"G-ABCD, PA28 inbound to you from XYZ, 5 miles north of Sedgefield Racecource altitude 2,000 ft QNH 1027, information charlie, request joining instructions."

You'll probably be asked to report first at some VRP before being cleared into the zone. Durham Tees has six visual reference points (VRPs) so make sure you know what they are so you can recognise the names and know roughly where to look on your map.

You may at any point be told to standby and/or to remain outside controlled airspace. Give yourself plenty of time by calling in good time.

You may also get some specific questions or instructions in response to your very first call, especially if they have your details already. Don't be put off, just give them the information they want.

The definitive guide is of course CAP413.

As others have said, your instructor should be able to give you the best advice as s/he'll be familiar with the airfield and any local procedures.

Mark

[gcolyer]

Durahm a ery friendly.

When you make contact you will pass you standard who where from to style message. Durahm will most likely give you a sqauwk code and ask you to report when at a certain location or distance, when you make that report thet will most likely give you circuit joining instructions.

The runway is great, nice and flat, long and wide, the approaches have no obstructions.

Have fun.

[Whirlybird]

And don't be afraid to tell them if you can't find a certain VRP, reporting point, or whatever. Just explain in normal English, something like, "Not familiar with area, where is XXXX?" Similarly, if you can't understand what they want you to do, say so. It's not a hanging offence, and will get you some help.

In the past, I've had detailed instructions all round Derby's circuit, which is grass and every time I turned I lost the airfield, and jumped a queue into a fairly large airport, as the controller obviously decided it would be better to get me on the ground sooner rather than later! I'm not saying this is recommended, but it happens to us all - there's no shame in being a student pilot and not knowing everything yet.

But why isn't your instructor telling you all this?

[stiknruda]

Is this still used?

If so would it not help if he used it in his initial call?

Good luck!

Stik

[gcolyer]

Tyro is still in CAP413 so i guess it can be used. Infact i was told to always say Tyro or student pilot when on my solo's.

[Maxflyer]

I found the Trevor Thom RT book 7 quite useful for this type of thing, when I was doing my PPL training. I learnt at a field with a FIS and was very nervous the first time I had to talk to somewhere with full ATC. They gave me strange things like squawk codes. I found the most useful RT phrase at this point, "Say again."
Make sure when you make your call that you are sure of position, height, direction etc, and make sure you are ready to note the relevant points they will give onto your chart or some such.
It may help you when passing your message to say something along the lines of,
"G-****, PA28, passing East abeam somewhere, heading 010 at 2500' on qnh 1025 Student Pilot on NavexVFR, estimate your zone boundry at time three five, with information India, requesting joining instructions."

[Randomtox]

as I understand it - TYRO is a military term so more used by the military LARS people although non-military FISOs should understad it as well. I've certainly used it in the past and I think the controllers appreciate a heads up that they have a newbie inbound so they relayed messages more slowly and were more understanding for the occasional mistake.

Totally agree with the previous post - if you're not sure abut something - ask. And ask in plain English if it makes things easier. The objective is mutual understanding between you and ATC of what you need to do in order to naivgate and land safely. If that means abandoning CAP 413 for a minute - fine.

random

[MichaelJP59]

Not R/T but if I haven't been somewhere before, I like to look for the VRPs and the field on Google Earth to get a feel for the area. Knowing the lie of the land gives you a bit more time to think about and follow the ATC instructions.

[pistongone]

Mark if you have information Charlie, why would you then ask for field information? Surely Charlie would be that info?

[soay]

Mark if you have information Charlie, why would you then ask for field information? Surely Charlie would be that info?
Not necessarily. For example, QNH could have changed since the last message was recorded.

[Whirlybird]

It may help you when passing your message to say something along the lines of,
"G-****, PA28, passing East abeam somewhere, heading 010 at 2500' on qnh 1025 Student Pilot on NavexVFR, estimate your zone boundry at time three five, with information India, requesting joining instructions."

Now, I know this is probably what it says in CAP 413. And I really, really don't want to confuse bg187. But IMHO, this is too long, and a lot of it is unnecessary.

Passing east abeam somewhere. Fine
Heading 010. Do you really need this? They know your position and that you're inbound. Unless you're making some complicated circuitous route, do they really want to know your heading?
2500' on QNH 1025. I seem to remember some ATCO saying on here that this is pointless. They're probably about to give you their QNH or QFE and tell you what height they want yo at, so is this useful?
Student Pilot on nav ex. Student Pilot will do. They know you're on a nav ex; it's obvious.
Estimating your zome boundary at time three five. OK, but I find it easier to say "in five minutes" and no-one's ever minded.

So the call becomes: G-XXXX, PA28, inbound to you from nowhereville, passing east abeam somewheretown, student pilot, estimate your zone boundary in five minutes, with information India, request joining instructions.

I do it like that, and no-one's ever complained, and if they want more info they ask for it.

[gcolyer]

I do it like that, and no-one's ever complained, and if they want more info they ask for it.


Thats a good point...if ATC don't hear what they want they will always ask you.

I always tell them:

Who I am (G-XXXX)
What I am (PA32)
From (Ronaldsway)
To (Liverpool)
Current location including Alt (Morcambe gas Field 2000ft)
What i want (FIS)

Sometimes i will be asked for time estimates and for position further position reports.

Class D approach will always pass you on to tower, so dont bother asking them for joining instructions, once you have been passed to tower you will be given circuit joining instructions

The key is...dont flap. If in doubt Shout.

For ages i had to write all instructions on a knee board, now i dont usualy unless it is taxi instructions at large airports.

[rustle]

I seem to remember some ATCO saying on here that this is pointless. They're probably about to give you their QNH or QFE and tell you what height they want yo at, so is this useful?

Lots of ATCOs say they don't want QNH in a p-y-m call because they're just about to give you QNH once you stop speaking anyway.

But they do like your alt/height though.

Talkdownman wrote something HERE (albeit about enroute) (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=242329&p=2833765#2833765) just the other day...

Maybe they should tell the CAP413 authors as well ;)

[raviolis]

ok I am gonna get a bashing here, but I am just asking out of curiosity and, since I am learning as well, to compare how other flight schools / clubs operate..

The man posting here says he's got a qualifying nav (solo I presume) up and coming and he's not been taught how to contact a CTR/CTA ?
What are the instructors up to ?

[gcolyer]

He is not saying he has not been taught. I would imagine his mind is in overdrive and a little worried that he does not balls his navex up.

I was the same on my first solo navex and I am pretty sure it is a common thing.

The one bonus is..once you are rolling down the runway your nervs get a grip and you slip straight in to what you have been taught.

At the end of the day, as long as you tell ATC who you are and where you are from and to, you wont go wrong. Ok it is not all the info they want but it is a start and they will ask you for the rest of the info. ATC will be able to tell if you are a newbie or a student and will not break your balls. they are there to keep the sky safe and help you.

[soay]

I seem to remember some ATCO saying on here that this is pointless. They're probably about to give you their QNH or QFE and tell you what height they want you at, so is this useful?
I like to give my altitude, as well as position, if only for the benefit of other traffic approaching the same VRP. I certainly find it reassuring, when others do likewise.

[Grainger]

Good advice on here. gcolyer has it about right.

If you can't remember all of the CAP413 stuff, stick to the basics.

Strict RT procedure is fine, but so long as you tell them:

Who you are
Where you are
What you want to do
. . . then you'll be fine.

If they want additional information they will ask you.

It all seems a bit daunting when you're running it through in your mind ahead of time, but when you're up in the air it will all make much more sense. They will telll you what to do and where to report. If you're not sure of anything, just ask for clarification.

Good luck tomorrow, and let us know how you get on. :ok:

[er340790]

Anything is better than the trainee JAR PPL in Florida approaching Lakeland solo for the first time..... total brain fade:
HELLO LAKELAND TOWER...... I AM A CESSNA......:rolleyes:
He's now ATPL - honest.

[gcolyer]

I found it a nigthmare going to Sanford FL. I was put on approach told to expedite immediate right hand turn and orbit, put back on approach told to expedite immediate right hand turn and orbit. Then finaly when they let me continue my approach they asked me to speed up.

My response was " I am a c150 flat out at 90kts on approach, i should be at 75kts"

They told me to continue approach and stacked up the commercial traffic until i landed.

great fun.

[aluminium persuader]

...or you could try phoning Teesside and ask the people themselves! They won't bite, you know!

[Maxflyer]

I do it like that, and no-one's ever complained, and if they want more info they ask for it.

Whirly,

I agree, but whilst someone is training isn't it better that they use the correct form of RT? It will also help them get used to it more.

[gcolyer]

Aviate
Navigate
Communicate

I would not be making RT my priority as a student or as a qualified pilot. His accuracy and fluency with RT will come in time and with live practice.

[172driver]

To all of the above, the only thing I would add is - don't panic if your call isn't acknowledged immediately. This can be very disconcerting (and even 10 seonds can seem like an eternity on your first X-country). Don't forget, the controller can be busy, might be working another frequency or coordinate something by phone. Have a great flight! :ok:

[gcolyer]

If the coneroller does not answer straight away, don't enter the controlled airspace until you have permission. Either

Orbit where you are
Slow down
Zig zag closer to the boundry

Just don't enter without permission

Unless you are told to standby keep calling them until they do answer, if they dont answer ask all stations for a radio check. If no one replies squawk 7600 and go home, and continue making radio calls an ensure you say you are transmitting blind.