Bush Pilot vs Airline Pilot

[Swamp Rat]

Which of the above, knows how to fly with their hands when the s:mad: hits the fan........

[JetPark]

Now THIS is going to be a hot thread. I can remember the days when I got lost flying in a Grumman Trainer over the Drakensberg at FL whatever it was and trying to climb with my foot pushing the throttle further and further in but the aircraft remained in a slow decent :ooh:. Then when I got into Senior Management one day and saw my Pilots landing with their bums into the right hand seat of a King Air with 200 hours and then at 500 or so getting Command and then off to the Airlines - they never had the "bush" experience of having to be hands on........I want to watch this thread unfold :)

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Well, if it goes wahoonie shaped in the snot in RVSM in busy EU airspace I'll go with the airline boytjie, please...:}

[Q4NVS]

As each situation is unique, I do not believe that this one can be cut and dried... (It does depend on currency on type as well)

However, I would still go with the Airline Pilot and herewith my reasoning:

Most Bush Pilots have not received Airline Training, but on the otherhand (Darren), quite a few Airline Pilots were former Bush Pilots. Either actually or whilst figthing a war with the SAAF.

The key issue being: Airline Pilots get the chance of frequently being put into all sorts of situations and then taught to safely cope with them (while all the chips are down) - i.e. Those dreaded Sim Sessions.

The ordinary Bush Pilot does not have this luxury - i.e. When the situation starts developing he/she might have to start making plans not needed or anticipated before.

The FIRST thing the Airline Pilot does: Looks over his/her shoulder to see who the Instructor is that is punching the Sim Panel, before realising that this is real...

Mostly - Airline Pilots would have seen it all during Initial and Recurrent Training.

IMHO

[nugpot]

Which of the above, knows how to fly with their hands when the s:mad: hits the fan........

Neither me thinks. Most of us fly with our aircraft, using all the operating equipment - autopilot included.

IMHO and from my airline experience, bush pilots need a lot of training to be airline pilots. So does Ex-SAAF pilots, other civvie pilots, astronauts........

If you are just talking about handling skills, we have ex-bush pilots who are very good and some that are not very good at all. Same for pilots with any other background. I would say that SAAF guys arrive with an advantage in having seen aircraft operated close to its limits, but they just don't fly enough in the new SAAF to make a noticeable difference. SAAF guys are also not very CRM orientated and might initially struggle to adapt, same for the so-called bush pilots.

So which pilot is the best? : The one that retires after 40 years of flying without killing anyone or bending any aircraft maybe?

[tinpis]

The one that retires with the most ex-wives and still with a roof over his head.:hmm:

[Dogship]

I guess it depends which s:mad: ??

Bokkie crossing the runway less than 50 metres in front of you 15 kts before rotate?
Electrical fire in the wing at FL 330 on A/P?Both very dangerous, you could get hurt if you do the wrong thing. I'd say the Airline guy might get away more easily, cause he had the training.

With the bush flying you'd have to resort to techniques AC manufacturers would never dream about!
:sad:

[Swamp Rat]

What I was trying to get at, is without the airforce training ect, the guy that comes out with fresh comm and daddy knows someone and he then ends up in the right hand seat without getting to know how to use his hands.:ugh:

[Farty Flaps]

Bush flying is a discipline, airline flying is a discipline.All part of one larger industry, with many other disciplines. One is not better than the other, just trained and/or tuned for the enviroment they operate in. I'm an ex bush pilot, but i train people staright from school onto a modern glass jet. They are very talented youngsters. So I'm sure they would equally adapt to a bush enviroment if they chose. Its all a state of mind. When i was bushy i saw many ex airline types struggle. It wasnt their skills just their mindset, and vice versa.I still see people from the bush struggle to shake habits innapropiate for an airline job....including me.

By the way the world is not flat. There is life beyond bokkies and the saaf/saa.

[Rude Boy]

While it can be said that a lot of guys and girls get into bush flying as a step towards the airlines, will there ever be any agreement as to which is more benificial when comparing bush flying/general charter with instructing when it comes to developing the skills needed to be a valuable crew member in the big stuff? Also, as Swamp Rat asks, is it possible to stick a new comm pilot in the right seat of something bigger or more complicated too early, before the basic handling errors and lessons are out the way? I think the answer to this last question is certainly "yes". My first question might be slightly off the point but it seems a relatively logical query in this context.

[A37575]

In terms of sheer manipulative flying skill I would say the bush pilot is way ahead of the airline pilot. In terms of "monitoring" the automatics of an airline and pushing little buttons to guide the aircraft, the airline pilot is way ahead.
In theory it is hoped that an airline pilot should be equally competent at hand flying his aircraft without the aid of automatics as well as being competent at using the automatics. In practice research has revealed that airline pilots admit to being less than fully competent at manipulative skills because many operators actively discourage pilots from disconnecting the automatics even in fine weather conditions. Sadly, automatic complacency comes into play with airline pilots followed soon by automatic dependancy and its all down hill from there as far as pure flying skills are concerned. Of course not all airline pilots are like that - much depends on their enthusiasm for flying.

[Shrike200]

...and their current type. Yay for the SP77 equipped Fluff, sans PDCS!

[A37575]

Shrike 200. Got it in one!

[nugpot]

What I was trying to get at, is without the airforce training ect, the guy that comes out with fresh comm and daddy knows someone and he then ends up in the right hand seat without getting to know how to use his hands.:ugh:

I know what you were trying to get at and believe me, your background does not matter nearly as much as your attitude and a bit of aptitude.

[SIC]

Anybody who makes it into an airline without at least a decent amount of other flying time-
( bush,charter,instruction,aerobatics - whatever as long as it develops stick an' rudder )
-is at a disadvantage.

I have seen more than my fair share of low time co jo's on widebodies s&*% scared of a crosswind....and then I am thankfull for all that "Wan Wing Low" I got to practise before I got to see Mr Wan over here in Asia sweat it. But he pronounces it better than me!!!

[18left]

i have done some bush flying in my days,and it was very challenging as i was the pilot,, loadmaster,check in,engineer,dispatch,cabin crew,ops control,ticketing agent,cleaner,ground servicing agent,ramp coridinator, catering supervisor and sometimes even a.t.c.

Now looking back and seating in my glass cockpit at FL350 with an airline that employs people to fiil all this job profiles,i dont MISS BUSH FLYING, but the experience is valuable

[I.R.PIRATE]

Maybe you should rephrase the question. I would like to know who can make the better decisions. Airline pilots have died together with all their pax, because they cannot operate outside of SOPS when a situation calls for it. They are either too scared to make a decision based on a highly volatile environment, for fear of losing their jobs due to non-compliance to SOPs, or they have never actually learnt the art of informed decision making, as the decisions are made FOR an airline pilot all the time.

[B Sousa]

Nugpot and Tinpis hit it on the head.......

[Q4NVS]

Airline pilots have died together with all their pax, because they cannot operate outside of SOPS when a situation calls for it. They are either too scared to make a decision based on a highly volatile environment, for fear of losing their jobs due to non-compliance to SOPs, or they have never actually learnt the art of informed decision making, as the decisions are made FOR an airline pilot all the time.

Me thinks that is Bollocks! :sad:

Am I then correct in understanding that Airline Pilot's are born with 2, 2.5, 3 or 4 Gold Bars on each shoulder...?

So they never did any other flying or ever had any of those experiences you are referring to? Why then are all flying contracts etc. trying to get the valuable experience and hours to get into an Airline? :oh:

Your statement confuses me a bit, but hey, so does the FMC somedays...:O

[AfricanEagle]

No clear cut answer, it depends on the pilot and his background.

Give me an airline pilot that has earned his position after years and hours flying bush, acro, instructor, tugging and everything else thrown in. In an emergency he has the back up of professional training, manuality and the capacity to make decisions on feel, training and experience.

An airline pilot that makes it straight to the left seat after only flying airlines with sops and high tec electronics will not be as good.

Horses for courses: I flown with airline pilots that can't land a Cessna anymore (but then I don't know how to start a turboprop).

[I.R.PIRATE]

Not every single pilot in the world wants to be in the airlines. That is the misconception that lies at the heart of the head-butting between the two camps. Airline pilots believe that every single contract pilot, want to be like them...wrong. I flew contracts because I felt that was the most challenging flying I could lay my hands on. The time came when I was over contract flying, just because I cant live the lifestyle ANYMORE, so do you think I applied to the airlines?? Not a chance. I rather took a job in another sector of aviation, because I have no interest in becomming a systems manager, I love flying for the hands on experience. If I could do the kind of flying that I did on contract for the last few years, AT hOME, I would never do anything else, and I would forever giggle at the airline girls flying their fat-assed busses into space shuttle runways.

Have a look at certain accidents in the world where, had the pilot diverted from the SOPS, the aircraft and many lives could have been saved. Swissair 111 comes to mind...

I prefer a pilot who can think on his feet, not one whos thoughts are dictated by what other people have decided, over a discussion in an office. The aviation environment is too flexible and fluid to have had certain decisions made beforehand.

I do however agree with most posts in that the attitude is what makes or breaks a driver.

[Witraz]

I.R.PIRATE
If you have not been an airline pilot, how do you know the answer? Yes there are SOP's to be followed. However take crosswind landing limits. Heavy jets have limits far higher than any singles are licenced for. I look back at landing in extreme weather conditions (Scotland in Winter storms) in light twins and remember the luxury of the large runways. Even the largest of runways become limiting and requiring precision and challenging flying when on weather limits with a heavy jet, and as a Captain I get to make many decisions still.
From bush pilot (Rhodie cpl)to heavy captain I have done it, and when I look back feel lucky to have survive some of the stupid things I did when younger. Remember the statement 'There are old pilots and bold pilots but no old bold pilots'. There are many different flying career available. Some people want to progress to the big ships, other don't. Their choice, but why knock it? I know where I would rather be!

[I.R.PIRATE]

Au contraire mon ami - have done a few thousand hours of airline flying. Hate it.:ok:

ps: Rememer too that as South African pilots we have to start in SA, and airline flying in this country is piss.

[reptile]

- have done a few thousand hours of airline flying. :eek: :eek: :eek:

Pirate......you crack me up !!!!

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Did a few hundred hours of airline stuff and have to say it was a pleasure, even though it was based in another country. The nicest thing was having a schedule and SOPS so nothing came as a surprise such as destination changes en route, or an HF call telling me to go back to where I've just been two hours ago, because some bozo couldn't be bothered to be on time...:rolleyes:

[Witraz]

I.R.PIRATE

I had a friend who left the highlands and islands to fly B757's on holiday charter. He too hated it, left and has enjoyed a career still flying light turbo's. I had no idea from you original post you had any airline experience.
As I said there are many different ways to spend ones life in aviation. I know a little about aviation in SA, but am in no position to post comments on any problems faced. I was lucky to move from Zim when I did, although there was a period when I met my mates in London, who having just flown in on the B707 while I was flying a SD360 out of Glasgow, that I thought I had made a dreadful mistake. Oh to have a crystal ball when making career decisions!
Going back to the original thread though, I find pilots who have seen other fields of aviation, before entereing into airline flying do on average have better handling skills. Cadets from my company though do have sound training and background knowledge compared to 'self improvers' such as myself. However, it doesn't matter how much money you have, you can buy a licence but you cannot buy experience. Did a Delhi in the monsoon, and the crew was myself (bushpilot), one cadet co-pilot, with useful current sop and book skills, and one new joined co-pilot, local guy from Delhi, ex B737 captain who had done all his flying in India and had plenty of local knowledge. A good crosscut of experience and pleasant and profession working team.
As for challenging flying, winter is approaching here in the northern hemisphere. Do I fancy the challenge of Chicago in a winter storm, or maybe that 48 hour slip on the beach in Barbados. I have done been frightened in aircraft, so maybe I just might leave that Chicago for someone junior who might need the experience :E

[Q4NVS]

and airline flying in this country is piss.

Yeah right..!:sad:

Was just wondering how many of your thousands of hours flying Airlines in SA was spent flying a Dash 8 @ MLW of 19 051 kg's into Richards Bay during torrential rains, with cross winds between 25 and 30 Knots...:D

Here is the best part, because it is a Non-Precision approach and the weather is on the deck, you are sitting on your hands watching a 250hr SAA Cadet do the Approach so that you can do the Landing (hopefully).

It is piss - I agree! :E

(That's why they love it and would not change it for the world)

Btw, it also beats doing "attempted" low level Barrel Rolls in a Beech 1900.

[nugpot]

Not every single pilot in the world wants to be in the airlines. That is the misconception that lies at the heart of the head-butting between the two camps. Airline pilots believe that every single contract pilot, want to be like them...wrong.
The two camps used to be SAAF and Civvie trained pilots - now it is bush pilots vs airline pilots. I don't really know why any member of either side should be fishing for compliments about how challenging HIS environment is and how s*#thot pilots in HIS group are.
I prefer a pilot who can think on his feet, not one whos thoughts are dictated by what other people have decided, over a discussion in an office. The aviation environment is too flexible and fluid to have had certain decisions made beforehand.

I believe the original question had to do with flying skills, but I will combine that with decisionmaking ability.
I prefer an FO who knows precisely where he is in three-dimentional space and who can operate the FMS and autopilot well. During a monitored non-precision approach (statistically the most dangerous phase of flight in ANY discipline) and as mentioned by Q4NVS, I don't give a continental about my FO's handling skills. I will be doing the landing and he has to deliver me at a position from where I can make a safe landing using the automation available.
I also don't particularly depend on his decisionmaking ability. SOP's are written in part so that a junior FO has a rule that he can follow in calling for a go-around under certain unsafe conditions. He does not need to make a decision. The chief pilot made it for him. By the time he becomes a captain, he will have seen hundreds, if not thousands, of these approaches, and he will have developed the necessary skills.
As an aside. After listening to ex-"bush-pilots" over a beer. I am starting to wonder about decision making ability. Overweight take-offs, flights without adequate diversions, operating with u/s equipment, etc...... It speaks of really good decision making skills!
Finally. Bad pilots have no monopoly on accidents. It happens to the best of us - literally. Murphy does not care about your background.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Nugs, you've pretty much described why I want to get out of bush flying and into airlines. Making a decision and then managing the constant insidious pressure to overstep the mark is just becoming too much. Getting old and scared now.....:uhoh: :ooh:

[nugpot]

SRT,

Update your CV mate. SAX isn't done yet. 33 new FO's this year and counting.

[Tango24]

I have to agree that it is all about the attitude and skill of the individual!
There are many pilots with chips on their shoulders thinking that being a 'Bush Pilot' makes them a good hands-on operator..... and the same for an Airline pilot who thinks they're better at the other stuff..... :yuk:
However, I have known a few people that have not quite hacked the bush flying thing ie. going off runways etc, (purely due to a lack of co-ordination and confidence - basically should never have been issued a Comm, but that's a whole different issue) who have settled very well in an airline environment in the right-hand seat?
But then bush flying isn't for everyone!
Swamprat are you bored mate?:}

[south coast]

Have to agree with nugpot on what he said.

The other thing I would say, having done contract flying for almost 5 years, I think it is only a means to an end, like most things in life, a stepping stone to something better hopefully.

It would also seem to me, as I think someone has already said, what the initial question is asking is that of comparing apples and pairs.

I think the standard of training in airline type flying is of a much higher standard than 'bush' flying, the standard of maintenance is also higher, the use of SOP's is better and regulations, limitations and aircraft performance are better adhered to, to.

It might well be more boring, but I know which one I prefer.

[Farty Flaps]

Point one. There is more to flying, airline or bush, than the merits of yarpieland.
point 2 I have 2000 instructor ga, 8000 thousand bush , 5000 airline, and have experienced all that has been discussed here.
I'm a good operator (its on me file) due to the overall experience, bush and airline.Neither has primacy.I can do both becuase I've done both. It doesnt make me special or elitist.I behave appropiately in either world but temper my behaviour with experience and lessons learned from both worlds.
A wrong decision in a b200 will hurt a few people. a wrong decision in a 777 will be a catastrophe. As i said before , different disciplines. A surgeon is not a gp and vice versa, but they are all doctors.

Any polarised opinions indicate a general inexperince and local to the discipline currently employed in.
PS Im a good operator because I have learned to wind my neck in and do what is safe not what satisfies my ego . Not always easy.

[Q4NVS]

Well said...:D

[I.R.PIRATE]

I agree with just about every single thing said on this thread, but>>

How can one make a wrong decision in a 777?

[Balmy]

Easy.......keep pushing the stick after the houses have already got very big......!!

I agree with Farty......(how did you get that name anyway??.......NO on second thoughts I dont really want to know).......actually while this whole thread is good for a bit of a lark its really is all a bit of nonsence.......it wouldnt be a good idea to rely on (only) bush experience in trying to fly an aluminium overcast and it would probably be an equally bad idea to go fly out in the bush with only airline experience.......and really at the end of the day we are all still learning!!?? :)

[I.R.PIRATE]

no matter what and where you fly >> the day you stop learning is the day you start dying....



.....unless you are an airline pilot >> who knows everything anyway...................................................... .and walks on water.:} :E

[Balmy]

Aaaahh......but can you leap over tall buildings in a single stride.??:=

[nugpot]

.........and walks on water.:} :E

Does it count if I can float with the help of a lilo? :O

[Q4NVS]

no matter what and where you fly >> the day you stop learning is the day you start dying....
.....unless you are an airline pilot >> who knows everything anyway...................................................... .and walks on water.:} :E

For your sake I dearly hope your words are not true...:eek:

Are you not the 1 with Thousands of Hours Airline Experience? :\

Your posts have really deteriorated to NOTHING - Personally I am now not sure whether your are not just another 11 year old hacking into his dad's Laptop - Sorry :oh:

[south coast]

this is a thread which is going no where, the question itself is quite pointless, either a 'bush pilot' subtley trying to make out they are better hands on flyers, or an airline pilot subtley trying to make out that 'bush pilots' arent as good as themselves...

either way, it is going now where...

[I.R.PIRATE]

oh well then excuse me for trying to make light of a post that has gone south about two pages ago. QE2 ENVY's or whatever, relax bru. Pull up a chair and come and watch the Telly Tubbies with me.:{

[Balmy]

Wow Q4 et al........big on sense of humour then????? :rolleyes:

[AfricanSkies]

What is fun is mixing the two - going on contract with jet airliners. You get the training, the sims, you get to work for lots of operators in lots of countries - on a few occasions we have started their airlines for them, got them running, and then left them to carry on with it.

Some operators it's pure airline, they wet lease you and you are just an extension of their airline and everything is done for you, others want you to be, as 18left said 'the pilot, loadmaster, check in,engineer,dispatch,cabin crew,ops control,ticketing agent,cleaner,ground servicing agent,ramp coordinator, catering supervisor and sometimes even a.t.c.' which is challenging and you get to learn a lot.

The upside is, you get to operate in many different areas, including some of the nastier places on the planet like Afghanistan, Sudan & Iraq, so its not boring, we've operated from dirt strips, tin-pot 'airports', do lots of spiral approaches, VFR stuff one day in some strip in the Congo a few days later IFR into DXB or JNB maybe. The downside is, it's still a contract job and you're away from home but as far as forming great friendships with the other crews who you spend a lot of time with, and good, sometimes challenging flying, it can't be beaten:ok:

[I.R.PIRATE]

now you are talking.

[CCP]

Interesting thread. However with no real conclusions:hmm:

I cannot speak for the airline pilot but from a bush flying instructor point of veiw I think its safe to state the obvious that so long as the "Airline Pilot" is also current in genuine hands on bush flying in light aircraft between his airline flying then he may be able to handle a "bush flying" situation as well as or better than the full time "Bush Pilot".

Real Bush Flying is mostly about flying small airplanes with decent STOL capabilities in remote and challenging areas of the bush. Not airliners!

Cheers
CC

[glacier country]

I used to fly the bush in Canada, East Africa and now I fly airliners in the States.

Unequivocally the MOST talented pilot I know was a spray plane pilot in a former life!

I think that settles that!

[Contract Dog]

Sounds great mate, you boys looking for crew?:E

Dog

[crockroy]

I messed up as kid and never had the chance of becoming a pilot in the RAF, so I joined the Army andto compensate my feeling of loss gain every land licence I could (+ a couple of sea licences too), I hve driven all types of motorbike, Artic trucks, double decker busses, 72 ton tanks.
I am just about to leave the forces and am seriously considering using my pension to pay for my PPL CPL etc but for me the whole point is to fly, I've been passenger in all types more times than I can count. The idea of getting a bush pilot job fills me with feelings that I have'nt had since I was a kid that said the odd chance to fly something big would be nice too, but all in all to be able to fly at all is what counts, big or small, bush or airline, it all has it pros and cons, however, experience can't be replaced by simulations or just plain education, it is an aid to providing a knowledge and basic skill level.
Each dedication requires its own skill set, some usefull, some not, I personally wouldn't even entertain the idea of trying to flying an airliner without buliding up to it, just like I never just went from my car test to driving a Challenger tank, I gained the peripheral experience required to do with driving in general. Its an odd comparison I know but the experience a Bush pilot can bring to an airline, even if its knowing exactly what the computer is dealing with when co-ords are punched in is better than taking it for granted.
I'm expecting to be shot down for this but I've seen the British Army dwindle over the years loosing alot of its experience and in turn having qualified soldiers with no experience left in their place and things just not working as they should be because all the good old tricks of the trade are being lost.

If I'm wrong then tell me, I have broad shoulders:)

[galaxy flyer]

I know this the Africa forum, but I.R. Pirate are you SSG Version 1-9 from the infamous V1 battle on TechLog??? Methinks so...........Axes grinding!!

[Agaricus bisporus]

Crockroy, PM me.

[Toppled AH]

MMMMMM tough one but I think who ever doesn't have a hang over.....:ok::=

[pfm08]

i tend to think, as stated, that this is a question that can never be resolved!
the real question is, which is more fun- after all, who became a pilot to only pull a check at the end of the month?
having done both, i am most definitely of the opinion that bush flying beats airline flying hands down, both inside and outside the cockpit.

[yambat]

Agree with Nugpot attitude counts, pilot attitude that is . I am lucky to fly heavy jets in what I consider a bush pilot role, can be visual into some African strip with no approach aids at all and also into Atlanta , Orlando , Shanghai a few weeks later. Truthfully it helps if guys have the bush pilot experience in our operation, yet the way we operate we have strict SOP's etc and the benefit of 6 monthly sim rides. We are left a lot on our own as a crew and the dicipline of the airline environment has to interact with the freedom of decision making of the bush pilot, I believe we manage it quite well. A lot of approaches with crappy auto pilot and steam driven instruments, so bush pilots (or guys who have not flown electric jets) tend to shape better, just our operation, attitude counts!

[BushCaptain]

I think the real problem is, command skills! :ooh:
I've got a buddy that did the Oxford Aviation course that takes you from Zero hours and experience to be able to sit right seat of an A320/B737.. My friend now flies as P2 for a British Charter Airline and in a few years will become captain! So in all that time, I am wondering what decisions will he be able to make, and once he gains P1 status, what command skills will he have gained?!:eek:
I think the great thing about bush flying is not only the hands on experience, it's being able to make all those decisions that come with such a job! ;)

[NIJASEA]

Having flown the twotter in Africa from football fields to roads to the desert and now flying an Airliner from Europe, I think the best is to start out bush flying and then move to the airlines so you have the skills of the bush pilot enhanced by the technology of the Airline equipment and hopefully you get a pretty good handler (I exempt myself). I enjoy the rush of bush flying and i love the view of Airline operations. If you can do both you have it made.

[kotakota]

That MOST talented spray pilot --would it be Pete Crouch , ex-Kenya , Zim for the last 30 years ? I could spend hours watching him 'do' his stuff , last count nearly 20k hours , all spraying apart from a bit of Seneca flying out of Malindi in the 70s . He continued spraying throughout the Rhodesian bush war and had some VERY hairy moments !
Airline pilots ? Some of the best memories of the 'crossover' were while doing a couple of VC10 pilots conversion to the Navajo at Wilson after EAA went bust ! The flare heights were truly hilarious , but they soon got the hang of it and indeed brought some well needed discipline to the Bush regime.
Happy days
KK

[Witraz]

Flare Heights.................you should have seen the trouble I had after 13 years on Jumbo's trying to land the B777.....:} So close to the ground and the lack of main wheels for stability in crosswinds.......................:hmm:

[balajinaidoo]

dont care if its a beaver or boeing
as long you are a pilot thats a big deal

[White Knight]

Did several years bush flying in the 90s.... Give me an ex bush pilot as an F/O any day of the week - they know how to fly:ok::ok:

[screwballburling]

Bush pilot, who has been an AG Pilot, even better.

The trouble is today the new breed of airline pilot is a systems operator at best. Not their fault as flying skills in Airlines is well down the list of priorities. they are even discouraged from hand flying now, so no real change of any meaningful practice. A lot, if not all Airline Captains I know would be pushed to do a visual circuit. By visual I mean, by visual references not "VFR on instruments" and no use of stop watches etc. Most airline f/o's I know would be pushed to do a visual circuit, period. An airline pilot today is trained as a "robot" who is unable to function without a set of SOP's etc. yes I am aware of the need for sop's.

The bush/ag pilot, more so the one who has the tail wheel experience knows how to use their feet. Don't try and tell me "but we are talking about big jets here". because that's B/S. same basic principals apply. Next time there is a good x-wind at an airport, position your self in line with the runway and watch. You will soon see who can fly an a/c and who cant. You will also notice who has no f****** idea.

A lot of airline pilots are so short sighted they "look down" on bush pilots. Get a lot of this in GA, when and airline pilot will arrive on the seen and insinuate you lot are a load of "bush pilots". To me that is a compliment.

Just my 2 cents worth, as I have done all three types, using aircraft from Piper Cubs to 4 engined heavy jets, (pic).

Where's my tin hat darling? I'm outta here.

[ugflyer]

Airline Pilot every day of the week, month and year.
"Bush Pilot" every layover and overnite!
I just couldn't resist guys.......y'all asked for this one!:ok:

[poina]

If you're flyin fish off a sandbar in Alaska-guess who

If thrust reverser actuation a v1-guess who

either one will kill you, odds favor the type of experience

[fiftypercentn1]

I might be a bit extreme but I think one is born with good flying skills, or he/she is not. As simple as that.

I tried different types of flying and you can always tell almost straight away if someone is born for flying or not, especially at early stages.
Having said that, you can compensate a bit of lack of natural skills with other stuff like studying a lot, practicing a lot, knowing meteorology very well etc etc etc..

All of this is just to say that it doesn t matter if you are a bush pilot, airline pilot, glider pilot, F16 pilot..what matters is the person and his attitude, as for most things in life, this is why a bush pilot can be better than an airline pilot or the other way around..no written rule.

[james ozzie]

Try as I may, I have not the faintest idea what Westcoaster is trying to say in his/her posting above.

[kotakota]

I certainly was not an ace from Day 1 , but got through the system and became a safe bush pilot in Kenya for a few thousand hours in the 70s , had a struggle with ( African ) airline operation in the early days because training was so minimal then , you learnt on the line , which was difficult flying with the Pathfinder / Bomber Command captains from the 40s who booked no backchat / SOPS / CRM at all and whose risk taking was legendary so that their 'perfect ' record of landing at destination was quite breathtaking .
I went on to become a Captain at BA and a few other stops on the way .
I am currently flying NGs for a Middle East airline and am coasting towards retirement in 2 to 3 years medical always permitting as I am now 60 , but I know for a fact that all the FO's like flying with me because of my experience . We have to deal with lots of night flights to Indian destinations which are testing at most times , but especially now the Monsoon is kicking in.
I put it all down to the fact that my combination of bush and airline flying has given me a healthy attitude to terrain and weather that a textbook can never buy . I am still challenged by my flying and that is good . I am always staggered by the cockiness of copilots who know it all at 1000 hours TT . I keep quiet and then thoroughly enjoy their discomfort as the weather detiorarates and the rhythm of perfect SOP goes out the window. The ones who recognise their limitations are the ones who go on to be good pilots.
Humility is one of the great aviation virtues but is in short supply these days .
Bush pilot experience rules.

[Scruffy]

I flew 'bush' contracts for about 8 years in Africa and the Middle East, on turbines and jets, and we did some great flying where you have to figure things out for yourself - you get to be able to handle almost anything thrown at you.. poor weather, big mountains, long deserts, bad atc, u/s equipment, no ground beacons or facilities, no viable alternates, sometimes ground fire, major collision risk, unknown airports at night, dodgy runways, bad loading, nil support from home base, inexperienced crews, you name it. We kind of developed a generic way of doing things which kept us safe. Every dodgy experience you lived through added another facet to this 'way', which we could apply for example if we had to land at an unknown dodgy airport at night in heavy weather to ensure we made it safely.

Now I fly for a world-class airline whose SOPS are rigid, we have first-class equipment, all the support and backup we need from home base and generally things go swimmingly - because it's all just repetition of a routine... to good fields, with working equipment, and excellent ATC's.
There's not really any thinking to be done. And when the situation calls for something out of the ordinary I have seen not one but many of the old-hand experienced Captains sweat and panic a little. I'm talking about old ex-fighter pilots here included. Even a tight visual brings on that smell in the cockpit - the sweaty smell of adrenaline. I've seen some pretty poor material in the left hand seat who are there just because their number has come up and who go to pieces under just some slight strain.

I believe those pilots who have had to work things out for themselves in their formative years, and not always had the benefit of good equipment and 100% support (this includes air forces) make the better pilots, the ones who are confident they can make a plan when the chips are down, because they are used to the chips being down.

[7371000]

An airline pilot always shades from the hot sun by getting under
a tiled roof structure; his bush flyer counterpart shades under
a tree or a thicket.:yuk:

I have actually seen some tourist game park flyers taxing their C206s to
thickets at airport taxiways when told to hold while someone else is landing or taking off.:)

[7371000]

boy, try to enjoy some jokes sometimes. In this
profession bitterness or sulking is detrimental to
your mental and flying health.

After a nice flight whether across the game parks or
across cities what you need are a few jokes with
fellow pilots and a glass of wallop.:)

[7371000]

I fully agree with your discourse, guy. These days those
of us who enjoyed hand flying are really missing the art
of flying: nice handling, good landing with wind fully across
at 20 knots,nice de-crab and touchdown! What a thrill
that gave you!:D

But now we have all these software and they do everything
for you and you just sit there like a toddler and watch your
animation work it out.:confused:

Could be nice there where it tells you how to do the checklist
during abnormals, though, and the protections in vertical and
horizontal axii.:cool:

[nugpot]

You are all wrong.
The best pilot is an old SAAF pilot..... ;) :E

[Solid Rust Twotter]

I like curry...

[yambat]

I like nugpots sense of humour!

[High 6]

I suppose the best pilot is the one who still walks out to his aircraft, whether a C206 or a B747, and has a healthy respect for the weather, his machine and his own limitations when dealing with the entire operation.

He gets my vote governer. :ok:

[hoggsnortrupert]

I don't care! as long as he/she or heshe can cover my arse,(I said cover not covert) when I F-up, can have a beer and a laugh, and of course can fly, this does help considerably!

H/Snort:ok:

PS: Remember this! It is somewhat humbling when a F/o you previously disliked immensely, shines on the one in a million occasion that you are unlucky enough to have something serious happen, "never judge" is what it has taught me!

[poina]

kotakota,

In what I read of this post, my hat's off to you sir! Humility and the phrase "Wait a sec lets think about this" may get one all the way to retirement. It worked for me for 30 years.

[Fantome]

Dips me lid too, kotakota. No better short piece on the subject has been written.

[ARENDIII]

So I guess that real pilots win then?

[AQVILA]

"Most Airline pilots have also been Bush pilots at some stage, so obviously the Airline pilot!"

:mad: Think of all those integrated or sponsored people. Out of school straight into an airline.

This represents alot of airline personnel.

[Carrier]

Quote: “:mad:. Think of all those integrated or sponsored people. Out of school straight into an airline.
This represents alot of airline personnel.”

Only in a few small aviation countries, mainly in Europe. In the two biggest countries in world aviation, the USA and Canada, which together represent well over 40% of world aviation, most pilots work their way up the food chain. The same applies in the fourth largest country, Australia, and to a good extent in Africa.

On the way up these pilots acquire a valuable thing called experience! Their experience makes them much more valuable and safer when the chips are down. You can only learn so much from books or computers. Such pilots with genuine experience also collect a good fund of tall tales for wasting time over a beer or two or three, which makes them better company compared with an academic and computer (Airbus) pilot who has never had a real flying job.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Who gives a :mad:?

[J'Mac]

Totally agree

[Cave Troll]

In my humble opinion this discission is not achieving much. it is up to the particular person concerned and what they want out of thier career as a pilot. Bush flying is great fun and will give anyone great experience. I would not say that it is essential though. On the other hand if you prefer airline type flying the experience gained is no less valuble.

Basically each to thier own.

Ct

[non iron]

l confess l have had a tipple, but the bottom line is " can you fly ?"

Lost these days of course with career chasers at x number of pounds spent looking for importance.

l have yet to see a wreck with a proper pilot onboard.

Like all aviation statistics there is a cut off.

Ten years is this one. As Solid Rust Twotter says, " who gives a :mad: ?"