Qantas At War

[DEFCON4]

Why has Qantas management declared war on its employees?
I fail to see what possible positive result could be achieved by doing this.
The wage bill over the last few years has been substantially reduced.Off shore bases,partime,casuals,closure of engineering in Sydney,outsourcing,reduction of staffing levels at airports.The list goes on.
Senior management remuneration continues to increase.
Fear and intimidation have become the preferred management tools.
What is the overall agenda?
Staff cooperation surely must be more desirable than the adversarial circumstances that prevail now.
The anger and frustration that is evident in these threads is only a fraction of that at work.
Surely this is not healthy for any company seeking to move forward and reinvent itself

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

What is the overall agenda?

A. Use of the "Workchoices" (HAH!) legislation to remove unions from the QF industrial landscape.

[Ultralights]

The overall agenda, IMO is, not have Qantas as an airline, but a Qantas brand name, operated by Jetstar.

Qantas will add more and more routes and aircraft to J*, then J* will take over Qantas, so you will pay qantas prices, and have J* operating costs. QF will remain only on the profitable US and UK routes and thats it..

[hotnhigh]

Every new type to Jetstar. Including new 74 derivative. all new pilots offered Jetstar package take it or leave it. As old types phased out. Here's the contract for new aircraft. Take it or leave it.
I'd include LHR and LAX under the 'new' cost structure. Give it time.
The future is bright, the future is orange.:{

[Trashed Aviator]

Kiss ya A380 endorsements goodbye Emirates will be the new Qantas training ground.

[Keg]

Every new type to Jetstar. Including new 74 derivative. all new pilots offered Jetstar package take it or leave it. As old types phased out. Here's the contract for new aircraft. Take it or leave it.


Given the way the pilot shortage is starting to bite 'leave it' may well be a very attractive option for lots of crew. QF may well find itself on the wrong side of that particular ledger in a couple of years time. Time will tell one way or the other!

[blueloo]

Rumour has it, that QF CP, at s/o briefing said his only fear was if foreign airlines such as emirates started opening Aust bases.

[max autobrakes]

It's all about choice! :}

[aircraft]

Why has Qantas management declared war on its employees?
Err, because the employees are obstructing management efforts to return the company to viability?

I fail to see what possible positive result could be achieved by doing this.
I don't: Qantas returns to being viable!

Senior management remuneration continues to increase.I find that difficult to believe. Some justification please (and not just hearsay).

The anger and frustration that is evident in these threads is only a fraction of that at work.
Surely this is not healthy for any company seeking to move forward and reinvent itself
Sadly, a great many of the Qantas staff would now be considered "dead wood" due to their refusal to accept the realities. The loss of those staff would be considered "desirable" by management in order for the airline to completely turn around.

The saddest part is that these staff just cannot see the writing on the wall - they are in denial and to bring them round would require prohibitively expensive rounds of individual counselling.

Ask a former Ansett employee how sad it was when that airline had to close its doors, then try to realise that GD and the management are working hard to prevent Qantas from going the same way.

[Capn Bloggs]

I don't

Don't you mean "I do"?

You learn all that stuff in uni (before you got your job in Ansett at age 17 just before in went broke 5 years ago)?

You may like to live in Chinese conditions, but some of us don't. If we have to, then we'll go that way kicking and screaming. Get into the workforce and see what it's like to work for nothing.

[aircraft]

Don't you mean "I do"?
The original poster said "I fail to see..."

I said "I don't...", which means "I don't fail to see..."

[Going Boeing]

Aircraft - you miss the point, Qantas is already viable. Dixon is simply taking remuneration from staff to line his own pockets (substantiated in company documents). Your responses indicate that you are naive and have not done any research prior to posting. :ugh:

[Sunfish]

Aircraft you have completely missed the point, or swallowed the big lie. As has been said numerous times its not about Qantas "Viability" or "Sustainability".

Its about SHARE PRICE sustainability and viability.

[company_spy]

Ultralights.
Jetstar will take over more and more of the QF routes and when Qantas loses identity they will rebadge Jetstar in Qantas clivery, and as if by magic, Dixon gets his cost reduction.
aircraft
Ansett does not exist, this thread has no time for management or their gutless sympathizers.
keg.
what pilot shortage, have a look on the CASA register, there are thousands of pilots. People will do the job for half the wage.

[Capn Bloggs]

I said "I don't...", which means "I don't fail to see..."

Which means "I do...", as I suggested.

[TurbTool]

Bloggs, I agree with Aircraft, he/she don't. It should be obvious.

Sunfis and GB, share price and viability are tied in together, the outfit does not exist for the employees. If you can't see that get ready for a rude surprise.

[Sunfish]

Mr. Turb, with respect, you have got it wrong. As an entity, as long as Qantas is not losing money it is sustainable. Since it has something like a billion annual profit and a stranglehold on capacity, I would argue that its viability is not in question.

What is in question of course is the viability of the senior management team, and Board, and that is a direct function of its share price. If the share price falls too low as a result of management ineptitude, Qantas becomes a takeover target, it is taken over and then management is replaced with a better performing group.

As for being run "for the benefit of the employees", I think you miss the point entirely, which is about time horizons. Qantas employees, such as pilots, engineers and cabin crew can make an immediate impact on QF's profits. Board decisons take years to impact profits. I will leave you to ponder how this happens on your own.

To put it another way, you can't have satisfied customers unless you have satisfied staff.

[cunningham]

I must admit I have a very grim view of the future at Q. The impending pilot shortage we all talk about will do little to curb the typical actions of management, they will simply continue with what the rest of the world has been doing for years, throwing candidates in the right hand seat with 250 hours. And lets face it, we are living in the best country on the planet, you know that and so do they. How many of you would seriously consider leaving Qantas to go overseas, possibly for the rest of your careers? They will wittle away the CoS until it's to their liking. Believe it or not people there are plenty of wannabes out their who would be happy to fly jets for Jokestar wages, management also know this. We are doomed because we can't collectively stick together and stay together.

[aircraft]

Sunfish,

Qantas is a lot more viable today than it was a few years ago because of the management.

To successfully spin off a low cost carrier (Jetstar) was a masterstroke, given the disastrous results met by KLM and British Airways (?) when they tried the same thing.

A declining share price is not necessarily an indication of poor management. I believe that the Qantas management is excellent and wish that GD was in charge of my company!

[lowerlobe]

Quote from Aircraft....

"Qantas is a lot more viable today than it was a few years ago because of the management.

To successfully spin off a low cost carrier (Jetstar) was a masterstroke"

How then do you explain J* Asia .....?

[Keg]

Sunfish,
To successfully spin off a low cost carrier (Jetstar) was a masterstroke, given the disastrous results met by KLM and British Airways (?) when they tried the same thing.


Exept BA and KLM didn't try the 'same thing'. Both of those airlines competed head to head with their respective LCC on the same routes. QF just withdraws from routes and hands them over to Jetstar! :rolleyes: Blind freddy can make that work when you're paying peanuts.

[radiation junkie]

No, unfortunately they have not "spun" off anything. J*Asia is bleeding Qantas for millions every month. J*domestic is underpinned by Q domestic and could not survive on it's own. J* Int. is still an unknown, but will do little other be used to drive down wages and conditions and line the pockets of management in bonus payments. Then probably morphed back to into Q as AO was. All part of the "Howard" workplace legislation. This whole J* crap is basically the overrated ego adventure of an angry, unhappy, tragic personality. He will do anything to ensure the success of his J* manifested ego, without regard to the destruction of Qantas Mainline. Nothing to do with masterstrokes, viability or survival of the Qantas brand or product.
Yes, costs and efficiencies had to be improved, but if our talented Management had invested the billions of $ and energy wasted on J* into upgrading and improving Qantas Mainline, in my opinion, we would be making just as much profit if not more. There would be ongoing carreer progression in flight and cabin crew, plus improved training and maintained quality in engineering. The whole scenario is short term, cheapening the product, missleading shareholders, smoke & mirrors accounting and quick bonus driven greed by our talented management. James Strong sold all the assets, now Dixon is selling our most valuable asset left, all the loyal employees. Thank you.

[aircraft]

Exept BA and KLM didn't try the 'same thing'. Both of those airlines competed head to head with their respective LCC on the same routes.
Regardless of how you try to dress it up, Qantas succeeded in establishing their own LCC where two major European airlines failed - good management?

[lowerlobe]

Aircraft,
Firstly,you did not answer my question regarding J* Asia .If The QF management is so good then J* Asia should have been a huge success instead of a drain on our resources .Imagine our profit if we did not have to prop up that management failure.

Secondly,how much of J* infrastructure is actually QF's and not to mention consumables.If J* had to stand on it's own ,in other words if it was a stand alone carrier not affiliated with QF I wonder how much profit it would be making.

Lastly if Darth was running your business you might be either looking for another job because you have just been outsourced or your conditions so reduced your opinion of Darth also reduced

[company_spy]

What pilot shortage, or impending pilot shortage. You would have to be living under a mushroom to think there is a pilot shortage, or are you just trying to convince yourself.

[aircraft]

lowerlobe,

What is Jetstar Asia? Please forgive my ignorance and fill me in. When will they start operating, what routes, what aircraft, etc.

radiation junkie,

You say "J*domestic is underpinned by Q domestic and could not survive on it's own". That statement cannot possibly be true when J*domestic has 30-40% lower costs than Qantas domestic.

You seem to be attributing all Qantas IR woes to WorkChoices.

The campaign to restore Qantas viability began long before WorkChoices came in. In fact, if WorkChoices had been around 3 years ago, GD may not have opted to go via the Jetstar route to reduce the cost of his workforce - he could have just sacked ("for operational reasons") all those staff that refused to take a pay cut.

WorkChoices will make Australia more internationally competitive and will lower unemployment in Australia. It will reduce the wages of some but only the lazy need fear for their job security. Compensating for the reduced wages are other, less tangible benefits.

You also say that "if the money hadn't been wasted on J* but reinvested in Qantas", then Qantas would have been "just as profitable, if not more so".

You are wrong and do not appreciate just how much revenue is required to keep a full service operation like Qantas profitable. Where would that revenue have come from, given that some other LCC(s) would have started up had Jetstar not done so?

[Keg]

lowerlobe,
What is Jetstar Asia? Please forgive my ignorance and fill me in. When will they start operating, what routes, what aircraft, etc.

If you don't know about J* Asia then you're not obviously not qualified to be discussing issues on this thread. Run away and do your research on the big picture before you sprout off nonsense! :rolleyes:

Regardless of how you try to dress it up....

I'm not dressing anything up. Lets go back and look at your original statement:

To successfully spin off a low cost carrier (Jetstar) was a masterstroke, given the disastrous results met by KLM and British Airways (?) when they tried the same thing.

(My added emphasis). Let me state (again) that QF did NOT do the same thing as KLM and BA with their LCC. (Again) Both KLM and BA competed head to head on the same routes as their subisidiary carriers and paid the price. (Again) QF does not compete head to head on the same routes. (Again) QF pulls out of routes and hands them over to J*. BA and KLM would have been able to make their respective LCCs work if they'd done the same thing and handed those routes over to the LCC! :rolleyes:

If you're going to 'play' with the adults then at least try and keep up! :ugh: :E

[cunningham]

Company spy,

My apologies, I didn't make myself clear in my post. I made this statement regarding the pilot shortage with the tongue thrusted firmly into the cheek.
I get a little tired too of pilots constantly bantering in groups. "They won't screw us too much because there is going to be a pilot shortage and the airlines will be desperate for drivers, they will need us" I do not believe for a second this will happen. I actually concur with your earlier statments on this thread.

[Reeltime]

QF is in a relatively strong position at the moment for one reason only... the collapse of AN. Were it not for that event, I believe it may have been QF we refer to in the past tense.

It is in spite of current management that the rat is still in existence.

Picture this..Ansett, Virgin Blue and Qantas still battling it out today. Now factor in these incredibly stupid decisions made by Dixon and co. in the last couple of years. All of them cost millions;


: The upgrade of the classics( an obsolete fleet of six a/c)

: The creation of Australian Airlines, only to dump it 3 years later

: The A330 floor fiasco

: The creation of J*Asia... big loss maker

Anyone think of anything else? I think you get the picture.


Now members of Dixon's fanclub like Aircraft don't even know what J*Asia is? Funny how his admirers usually work in another company or industry altogether. Those that actually work in the place know where it's headed, while his cheerleaders here and in the media, just can't seem to notice that the king is not wearing any clothes!:ugh:

[qcc2]

BA, Qantas lay off Don Muang staff

Two major carriers, British Airways and Qantas, plan to lay off all 60 employees at Bangkok's Don Muang airport to cut operating costs.

[Transition Layer]

What is Jetstar Asia? Please forgive my ignorance and fill me in. When will they start operating, what routes, what aircraft, etc.

With a stupid comment like that, here's hoping Aircraft will be too ashamed to show his face around here again.

[404 Titan]

Reeltime

While I agree with the thrust of your argument and that QF certainly benefited from the collapse of AN, it is infact DJ that had the greatest benefit from their collapse. There were even rumours (unsubstantiated) at the time that if AN didn’t collapse when they did DJ would have run out of cash about two weeks later. Certainly QF had much deeper pockets than AN or DJ and if there was going to be a three way struggle for market supremacy, I’m pretty sure QF would have been the ultimate winner. Whether they would have made any money over that time is anyone’s guess though. I suspect not.

aircraft

You are way out of your depth in this discussion sunshine that you are making yourself look stupid. If is quite obvious from your posts that you aren’t even associated with this industry or even qualified to talk about economic/business matters. I suggest you only open your mouth when you know what you are talking about. Some of us here including myself, have other qualifications outside of aviation which makes us more than qualified and competent to discus what is going on in our industry.

[lowerlobe]

Aircraft,
If you don't know about J* Asia then you don't work in this industry.Suffice it to say that it has been about as successfull as the charge of the Light Brigade and all of it was the idea of your mate Darth.

[Enema Bandit's Dad]

Aircraft should go back to watching the afternoon repeats of Playschool that he didn't understand in the morning. He might than learn something.

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

lowerlobe,
What is Jetstar Asia?

That's gotta be the quote of the year...

Aircraft... lets not hear from you again, ok?

[Boney]

Aircraft - age 22 (says it all)

I remember when I was 22 I think I had a similiar attitude. I think aircraft needs to spend at least 5 years working in the real world getting bent over and shafted.

KLM?????

Were you not still in year 9 at school when these ventures were experimented with????

[radiation junkie]

I think previous posts have clarified things already, but....
Aircraft:"You say "J*domestic is underpinned by Q domestic and could not survive on it's own". That statement cannot possibly be true when J*domestic has 30-40% lower costs than Qantas domestic."
Answer:Creative accounting, eg. actual cost of turning a J*plane around...$2500. Amount charged to J*operation costs... $1500. Who pays the rest, Q mainline.
Aircraft:"The campaign to restore Qantas viability began long before WorkChoices came in"
Answer: Yes, but GD and Howard have been bed buddies for years and the whole J* operation was planned and based on AWA's coming in. As was AO.
Actually, I am wasting my time here answering "aircraft". Goodbye and Thank you.

[787 Captain]

Wow, after being so involved, aircraft has gone very quiet :D. I think you all got your wish and he's gone now :ouch:

[lowerlobe]

It's all making us laugh but with all of his experience in the industry and understanding of the situation he is probably on the board...

I can just imagine him asking Darth after the next board meeting "Look mate I was alseep for a while did we start an airline in Asia and if so how is it doing?"

[king oath]

Aircraft is obviously no businessman.

If you sell a product at little or no profit margin you will get good market share. But you will go broke.

Eg, The local bottle shop buys a slab of VB for $23 wholesale and sells it for $24. I'll buy from him ,but he ain't going to stay in business very long, unless he's got a parent company such as Woolworths copping the loss purely to gain market share and pressure their competitors.

In the case of J* they have a parent company paying a lot of their costs and overheads. The small profit is a paper profit. Someone's paying by losing money and that someone is Qantas.

Here endeth the lesson my son.

[Fliegenmong]

That was priceless wasn't it - that post by aircraft, just priceless. I cannot recall the exposure of such blind ingnorance, I actually laughred ouit loud, no wonder he thinks 'work choices' is a good thing, makes sense now.
Thanks for the laugh aricraft - see ya round buddy!!

[-438]

Aircraft is just another pprune expert.

For those who constantly get their facts from this forum, take notice...

[aircraft]

Hi again all,

Have been too busy over the last 24 hours (work commitments and reading up on Jetstar Asia) to make any reply posts. Will be back as soon as I get the chance!

[r3please]

Aircraft - do us a favour and don't bother

[Enema Bandit's Dad]

Oh, let him go. We all know he's just a little boy.

[DirectAnywhere]

Actually aircraft, please do reply.

I could do with another laugh like that one yesterday....

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

Aircraft, you don't seem to realise that your credibility has been shot to pieces. The fact that you don't seem to realise that fact only goes to further obliterate the scattered shards....

But what the hell, I can't wait for the next post. Before you ask.. Virgin Blue is also an Australian airline founded by Richard Branson. They fly red "aircraft", it's actually a clever play on words. Before you ask... blue in the Australian vernacular.... (this could take a while. folks...;) .)

[Danny]

Having decided to have brief look at the Dunnunda forums I have been appalled at the amount of cr@p that has been posted on these forums since I last looked a long time ago. This thread for example has deteriorated into a p!ssing contest between spotters and enthusiasts about who knows more than the other about the airline industry.

From now on I am instructing the mods to be especially vigilant and if ANY post is not connected in some way to PROFESSIONAL PILOTS then it will either be deleted or moved to a more appropriate forum such as Airlines, AIrports & Routes; Cabin Crew; Private Flying; Biz Jets & GA; Spectators Balcony (Spotters Corner); Military Aircrew or whatever. For far too long this forum has become a scrap heap for anything that has wings and recently even news items that have absolutely nothing to do with aviation let alone professional pilots.

The time has come for you all to realise that PPRuNe stands for The Professional Pilots Rumour Network. If you have an urge to discuss something about PPL's and it is related to something to do with getting a professional licence then it goes into the Private Flying forum. If someone crashes their C150 or whatever then it goes in the private flying forum as long as the aircraft was involved in some way in training someone for their professional licence. If it is just Joe Bloggs who was out for a joyride then it doesn't go on PPRuNe. There are enough enthusiasts sites out there where you can argue to your hearts content about the minutae of general aviation. If it isn't related to Professioanl Piloting then it doesn't belong on here.

I suggest to those of you with a bent for arguing the point that you find yourself another website as I will not be entertaining argument about my decision to get these forums back on their original intended track as you may find a wasted effort, especially with long winded responses that may get deleted. Sod free speech. I pay for this website and I decide what does and what doesn't remain on here. Forewarned is forearmed! :=