Gatwick arrivals

[cornwallis]

I recently stayed with my outlaws in Tunbridge Wells.I was very surprised how many aircraft are vectored over the middle of the town day and night.I find this remarkable because it would only take turning them two miles early or two miles later to be in open countryside bothering nobody.DC10s dragging into Lgw early in the morning making no attempts at cda's do nothing for a good nights sleep!Quite a few of the colonists dont bother either!
I will ask the outlaws to keep me posted to see if anything changes.:}

[anotherthing]

The arrival and departure tracks are planned for numerous reasons; avoiding built up areas is one, but more importantly, missing departures or arrivals from other airfields is the major one as far as gatwick is concerned!!

:ok:

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

And this chap claims to be an ATPL!!!!!!

[Jerricho]

DC10s dragging into Lgw early in the morning making no attempts at cda's

This is based on visual observation?

[AlanM]

I was in Tonbridge 6 weeks ago and was also surprised by the number of jets I saw.

I then went to work, and watched the radar for the area and could see why.

As far as I can remember, Gatwick is still the only approach unit with "noise avoids" actually on the radar map.

So how low was the DC10 below the CDA?!!?!?

[TopBunk]

Well, my company produces regular lists of %age CDA's flown into LHR by our fleets and for other operators.

I'm sure that LGW will have similar data available by operator and type. It shouldn't then be too difficult to work things out for DC-10's (there can't be that many these days).

Yawn

[Marvo]

I live 2 miles south of ROYAL :* Tunbridge Wells and fly into/out of Gatwick on a regular basis. ....I like flying over my house.!.......Also the LGW director/tower/grd are probably the best controllers around. I certainly enjoyed my go-around from 200 feet on Thursday (FR1182) due traffic on the runway, gave me a chance to buzz Crawley at 1000 feet.

I do however admit that on days off, in the garden during the summer, its a spotters paradise and if I wasn't a pilot I might be a bit miffed at the noise! Hope I don't sound like disgusted of Tunbridge Wells.

[AlanM]

Anyone who lives near a VOR is just asking for noise!! :)

(Only joking mate)

[Standard Noise]

Sorry Alan, I don't do home visits!:}
Never thought I'd see the day when we'd start getting noise complaints from inside the industry.:hmm:


BTW Alan, WTF were your lot up to yesterday? 20-19, an injury time 40 metre job from Riki boy. Roll on the 9th December!!!

[foghorn]

As far as I can remember, Gatwick is still the only approach unit with "noise avoids" actually on the radar map.

Luton's got them too now.

[AlanM]

Thanks mate. I must get a liasion visit sorted.......

[almost professional]

got them at East Mids too!

[AlanM]

I hope we haven't got them, and I just forgot to select them

[Jerricho]

Oh Alan.................

http://altomo.info/~kenny/images/napoleonsig.gif

[Flightman]

Well, my company produces regular lists of %age CDA's flown into LHR by our fleets and for other operators.
Yawn

That's me that is! :ok:
LGW does the same, as does STN.

As for the visual determination of a CDA/NON CDA, LHR has its own "expert" as well. He prefers to use his eye, then regularly try and discredit our data, thats taken from the SSR! :ugh:

Its not just CDA we report on. Track keeping, noise infringements, 1000ft data, joining point, its all being watched guys! :)

And a big :D to all those who use the 3 SE aiports. I know how seriously the noise abatement measures are taken by pilots.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

If only the nut-heads who dream up the noise-abatement stuff were made to sit in with ATC they might not get so carried away.. Trying to run CDAs into parallel runways early morning, with traffic from various directions going for those runways with minimum spacing, is very, very difficult. One minute they're whingeing about movement rates, next minute they want CDAs..... Sorry Mr Flightman, when they showed me your bits of paper I used to bin them, as did most of my colleagues.

[Jerricho]

Come on Bren, own up. We all used to laugh at which watch had the worse stats..........usually W Watch :E

[Roffa]

If only the nut-heads who dream up the noise-abatement stuff were made to sit in with ATC they might not get so carried away.. Trying to run CDAs into parallel runways early morning, with traffic from various directions going for those runways with minimum spacing, is very, very difficult. One minute they're whingeing about movement rates, next minute they want CDAs..... Sorry Mr Flightman, when they showed me your bits of paper I used to bin them, as did most of my colleagues.

I don't bin the bits of paper, always interested to see the stats, but as far as the 6am to 7am hour at LHR goes if I'm the unfortunate soul sat on FIN then CDAs are the last thing on my mind.

The airport can't have it both ways.

It creates artificial delays by making traffic hold for the 6am night jet ban to finish (despite a not insignificant number of arrivals before that so surely everyone on the ground is awake already) and then we're meant to get to a no-delay situation at 7am when the first domestic and european wave turns up.

As HD says, you can't then expect CDAs to be top of the list when trying to maximise the landing rates using both runways for that first busy hour. Unfortunately though when you ask traffic to expedite descent because your trying to use minimum spacing with a lot of crossing tracks traffic still wafts down because of CDA, CDA, CDA being burned into the consiousness. Any heavy drivers reading this, if we say expedite at that time in the morning please point the nose down, I've got enough grey hairs already!

I sometimes think we shouldn't bother busting the proverbial gut and see what happens when there's regular delays at 7am and therefore more flow for the rest of the day required.

[cornwallis]

There seems to have been some thread drift here.The point I was making was that all the arrivals when LGW is in 26l config go right over Tunbridge Wells day and night!My outlaws live in the centre and even in the early hours the arrivals are being flown right over the town!I chose Dc10s as they are the noisiest .I cannot see what arrivals in the 5000-3000 band are avoiding in the way of other airports departures.Yes I am an atpl and fly into LGW regularly.

[Roffa]

Looking at where T Wells is on the map it's fair to say that not all arrivals will overfly it.

Some will, some won't as the final approach drifts in and out depending on volume of traffic and spacing changes requested by the tower.

But because of where it is it will probably see a fair amount of traffic in the vicinity.

The joys of being pretty much under the final approach to a major airport.

See if you can get a copy of the PRNAV approaches and see where they go in relation to TW, such approaches are likely to feature more prominently in the future.

[Jerricho]

Unfortunately Mr Cornwallis, you also brought up the topic of CDAs.

[Topofthestack]

Cornwallis,

Why just TW, let's all avoid other towns like Windsor, Maidenhead, London, Manchester Glasgow, Edinburgh and on and on. Why should some towns be exempt whilst others aren't? Frankly it was stupid to place towns near to airports!

[Flightman]

If only the nut-heads who dream up the noise-abatement stuff were made to sit in with ATC they might not get so carried away.. Trying to run CDAs into parallel runways early morning, with traffic from various directions going for those runways with minimum spacing, is very, very difficult. One minute they're whingeing about movement rates, next minute they want CDAs..... Sorry Mr Flightman, when they showed me your bits of paper I used to bin them, as did most of my colleagues.

Not sure if your post was jovial, or a dig, so I'll just say this.
CDA between 06:00 to 07:00 is now as good, if not better than the daytime figure. Thats with or without TEAM criteria being used. :D
If it really was that difficult, well you've got to say well done to the CURRENT crop of ATCO's, haven't you? ;)

As for the nuts who "dream" CDA up, well if LHR's noise contour grows, the airport doesn't. So anything that helps to reduce the contour is a good thing, don't you think? And for a 744, from a CDA from 6000ft says 1/2 tonne of fuel per flight. With the current cost of fuel, thats worth while as well isnt it?

[WHBM]

My outlaws live in the centre and even in the early hours the arrivals are being flown right over the town!I chose Dc10s as they are the noisiest.
Looking at the actual Gatwick arrivals for the whole of July and August, over 25,000 arriving flights, there was ONE DC-10 arrival in the early hours in all of these two months (a cargo at 03.40 on 14 July). Apart from this there were no DC-10 arrivals at all until after 08.00 (08.02 on 7 August).

You must be so very unlucky to be there when this happened. Don't go to Lingfield and bet your life savings on a horse !

[Right Way Up]

Also the only DC-10s I can think of at the the moment are DAS Air, and I am fairly sure they were regularly near the top of the CDA charts.

[AlanM]

...and the occasional Air Namibia when the A340 is off??

[WHBM]

Taking July and August there was a daily Northwest DC-10, normally getting in about 08.30, and 59 DAS arrivals (average one a day, but very scattered in time). That's it for the DC-10.

Air Namibia come in 3 times a week, alternating between an A340 and an MD11. When the A340 was indeed off in August they hired in a Malaysian 747 this time.

[anotherthing]

As an ATPL you must know that ATC are trying to optimise approaches, whether that be quantity per hour or profile; it depends on the traffic situation.

That means A/C in the 5000 to 3000 foot bracket (a critical phase of flight you may realise) want to be setup for an optimum, east to fly approach.

If this impinges on TW, thats tough.... ATC and airlines are not going to throw recognised procedures out of the door and mess about with flight profiles because the occasional A/C disturbs a town

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

anotherthing..... Hear hear! Very, very wise words indeed.

[SATCO Biggin]

What gets my temperature up is Gatwick inbounds being taken off of standard procedures to save time and money.

It is becoming more frequent at quiet times of the day (like 2200 when everyone is enjoying some peace and quiet) for arrivals to be vectored downwind right hand for 26, north of the airport, and right over my house in Edenbridge at 3,000 ft. When you are used to everything turning on from the south side it really becomes intrusive. :uhoh:

[AlanM]

SATCO Biggin.... I am sure people who live in Sevonaks hear the occassional Biggin Hill outbound!

Anyone who lives near an airport is mad!!!!!!

[Del Prado]

SATCO Biggin, in my experience, there are less downwind rights now than there have been over the last twelve years. probably due to the TMA being much busier with low cost carriers flying later.
Have you been in Edenbridge long?

[SATCO Biggin]

Del Prado,

A few years but the other half has been there nearly 10 years and bought the house on the basis the runway extended centreline passed a few miles south. If she wanted to live under the final approach she could have bought in Lingfield :rolleyes:

AlanM

I do not live near an airport I am miles away :}

[AlanM]

SB - you are just North of the 26 FAT! Mad enough for gov't work mate!! :)

[Jerricho]

No where in SE England is "miles away" from an airport.

[SilentHandover]

AlanM, Namibia used to use MD11's not DC10's, but that's now been replaced by a Malaysian 747. :ok:

SATCO Biggin, give our MATC a call to complain about the downwind right hand arrivals. :ok:

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Never, ever, understood aviation people who moan about aircraft noise. One would think they'd have enough noddle to work out such things before choosing a house. We had an ATCO at Heathrow who, incredibly, used to ring up and complain about helicopter noise over his house near Heathrow.

We LOVE aircraft - nothing better than when Heathrow are on easterlies and we get the base legs from the south right over us - we sit in the garden with our binoculars and enjoy every minute - total bliss.

[SATCO Biggin]

Never, ever, understood aviation people who moan about aircraft noise.

I fly them and control them and have been an aviation enthusiast since a schoolboy. I also do not mind the sight of aircraft but when you research SIDs, STARS, Instrument Approach Procedures and normal aviation practices in your decision to live somewhere less affected then you rather not have someone short cutting the system just to save an airline a few pounds in fuel costs.

I do not put any blame on the controllers, we are all under the same pressures to expedite traffic but lets face it these short cuts are not taken for ATC reasons.

Also, all new routes, procedures and controlled airspace these days are required by CAA DAP to have an Environmental Impact Study carried out before their implementation. To then take flights of off these routes makes a mockery of these studies.

[Del Prado]

lets face it these short cuts are not taken for ATC reasons.


I'd take issue with that. Most often it is offered as a short cut but it can also be used to resolve conflicts. If I've a bunch of fifteen arrivals but can get one in first by going downwind right, I'll do it and keep him ahead of all the others.

[Charley B]

HEATHROW DIRECTOR

WE LOVE THEM AS WELL!!Nothing nicer than LGW DEPS ON SFD8P--they go right overhead--binoculars out--FAB!
Direct to Mayfield is even better in the early morning---VIRGIN NIGERIA going over the houses opposite makes my day!

We are trying to work out where to go and retire to---Charlwood or Mayfield come to mind!
Any one got any better places near LGW where we can plane spot from the garden?????????
Other half is coming round to the idea of Charlwood ----slowly!!

[eyeinthesky]

Could SATCO Biggin put his hand on his heart and say that neither he nor any of the ATC staff at Biggin have EVER allowed ANY of the aircraft under their control to deviate from the standard routes and/or profiles into or out of Biggin and therefore overfly the houses of people who may have planned their house purchase based upon those standard routes?

If so, he maybe has a right to moan about others doing it and putting aircraft over his house... if not, put up and shut up!

[cornwallis]

The ground track for cda in to Lgw are not published anywhere.My outlaws moved to Tunbridge Wells 20 years ago when traffic went either west or east of East Grinstead.I can remember being offered a visual inside Grinstead a number of years ago.In the last couple of years arrivals have moved further and further east.If you are going to keep moving traffic do it around the back of this expanding town.There has already been comment in the local papers about this.I suppose to some people who live in Hampshire it is just somebody else's problem!!:} :}

[45 before POL]

Talking about Hampshire....I now have to sit and watch embraers and alike, whizz over my head at up 3500' in the turn out of HI....not there 5 years ago, but progress and with ever increasing air travel somethings got to give. Doesn't bother me or neighbours. However i am sure the bank of Blair is not complaining or the airlines.:}

[SATCO Biggin]

Could SATCO Biggin put his hand on his heart and say that neither he nor any of the ATC staff at Biggin have EVER allowed ANY of the aircraft under their control to deviate from the standard routes and/or profiles into or out of Biggin and therefore overfly the houses of people who may have planned their house purchase based upon those standard routes?



We are not talking about just one flight on an occasional basis. Once the winter schedules take effect it will be interesting to see if the 2 Squeezy Jet flights at approx 2145 most weekday evenings are taken the same way as last year.

At Biggin we have a volatile anti-lobby and as such we do not have the flexibility to deviate from normal practice. If we do then the paperwork starts rolling in and questions are asked at council level. NATS controllers in the main are buffered from dealing directly with local authorities, lobby groups, environmentalists etc. most of this being handled at aerodrome authority level with perhaps a NATS member on some committee. When is the last time a Gatwick based NATS controller from the coalface had to respond to a noise complainer?

[SATCO Biggin]

....and I have just realised that my postings look as though I am putting the blame on the ATCO's for this when that is not the intention.:ugh:

Many many moons ago when I was an ATCA at Gatwick East Grinsted was marked on the radar as an area to avoid. When the governments housing policy has run its course a lot of what were smaller villages are going to be siginificant areas of population which will need to be considered environmentally and maybe similarly marked if pre-determined routes are not adhered to.

[shack]

Me thinks that the world of ATC has moved on apace since SATCO Biggin was an ATCA at Gatwick, there are a few more aircraft around; not all puddle jumpers that he is obviously more used to.

[SATCO Biggin]

Me thinks that the world of ATC has moved on apace since SATCO Biggin was an ATCA at Gatwick, there are a few more aircraft around; not all puddle jumpers that he is obviously more used to.

Yep they were all puddle jumpers back then, Dan Air B707, BCAL B1-11, Spantax CV990, World Airways B747 Etc.

All climbed like bricks leaving trails of black smoke and making one hell of a racket......but in those days the public cared less.

[shack]

----------or could it be SATCO Biggin cared less?

[anotherthing]

Cornwallis,

if East Grimstead is an expanding town, do you expect ATC et al to continually change procedures to accomodate larger populations??

I assume that would be expected by every town that is near a major airport?

[cornwallis]

I was actually referring to RTW but grinstead is due at least another 2000+ homes under the prescott master plan

[paulthornton]

I think its fair to say that every bit of green land around EG and Tunbridge Wells will be consumed and built on if the Rt Hon. Mr Prescott were to get his way. :ugh: (Please note that I use the terms 'Right' and 'Honourable' with considerable artistic license here)

I too live near MAY and am more likely to wonder where everyone has gone if we have a long period of quiet without something going overhead... Mind you, our mil friends in their chinooks thundering over the Ashdown Forest at some im-sure-its-legal-but-will-upset-all-the-nimbys altitude can :mad: off. In the nicest possible way, of course!

Paul.

[GuruCube]

Any one got any better places near LGW where we can plane spot from the garden?????????
Russ Hill and just north of Rusper... especially on 08, they'd pass a few hundred feet over your house! ;)

[Charley B]

Thanks a lot!
Just off to look at the map!!
My brother mentioned Rusper the other day as well!

[Nimmer]

SATCO Biggin asked when a NATS controller last responded to a noise complaint. Happy to answer questions from the whingers, always ask wether the complainer actually uses the airports!!! Most do fly on holiday or business, the words pot, kettle black come to mind. Live near an airport, or under a flight path its going to get noisey sometime!!!!!

Can't stand Nimbys, tough luck SATCO biggin, will try and do more Downwind rights now!!!!!!!!!!!

Complainers from within the industry have to be the worst, talk about biting the hand that feeds you!!!!!!!