KLM

[B Sousa]

The other day I was due to return from Amsterdam to the states and patiently awaited the aircraft to come to the gate. Must be 747-400, A340 or something......Nope, a 737 in Swiss Air colors parks there. Im saying, here we go another gate change.
Not even, it turns out this puppy is not only going across the pond, its going to Houston. Amazing.
Bottom line is it was a 737-700 with range out the kazoo. Further that it was configured for only 44 pax. (I was going World Business)
Trip was great, weather was great, staff were great and with only about 20 pax on board,(no screaming kindersh1ts) a very pleasant experience.
So to those of you who may have some influence.ha ha. Please suggest to KLM that they do this on the Amsterdam/Johannesburg routing......Its obviously capable.
Thanks Privat Air/KLM

[Ennie]

KLM have been operating this service for a while now, and it's proving to be very popular. Privatair crew operate using KLM service (as you know)
Rumours around the company are that we will start to operate using our own crew/aircraft, I can't see it myself. There are also rumours of Dubai being operated on the Privatair 737, we'll see. Glad you enjoyed it.

[BAforever]

Does anyone have any information on the Amsterdam- Cardiff KLM service?:ok:

[airhumberside]

Rumours around the company are that we will start to operate using our own crew/aircraft, I can't see it myself.
Could Air France expand their dedicate service to KLM at AMS?

[Ennie]

AMS - Cardiff! F70/100, hmmm, slightly unreliable!

What Air France are gonna do, who knows, I think they will start doing more in 2008! We'll see!

[BAforever]

Yes, not exactly the greatest are they.:ok:

[keel beam]

From the BBC website

KLM unveils fuel surcharge cuts

KLM had vowed to keep an eye on oil prices
Airline KLM Royal Dutch has announced it is cutting its fuel surcharges, after a fall in oil prices.
The group said international fuel surcharges would fall by 5 euros ($6.34; £3.36), while the charge on flights in Europe would fall by 1 euro.

Oil prices have fallen to around $61 a barrel, after surging to record highs above $78 in July.

KLM last month promised to review oil prices and cut tariffs once oil prices dropped below $70 for 30 days in a row.

Airline fuel surcharges had been rising with oil prices, and KLM - which is part of Air France KLM - raised its fuel surcharge most recently on 10 August.

KLM's decision comes a day after the group's freight operation announced it was cutting its fuel charges, citing falling oil prices.

[F900EX]

Well said... Exactly the kind of thing a sharp CEO needs to keep any eye out for. KLM are obviously thinking ahead of the others

[Golden Ticket]

First time for everything I suppose, why has this only got anything to do with BA as apposed to all the other airlines or is this just a way to keep BA at the top of the thread list.

[spannersatcx]

most airlines hedge on fuel prices, so they will be fixed for a period of time so it would take a while for the reduction in oil price to actually kick in.

[WindSheer]

The extra security being introduced comes and will come at a price!

It will all balance out....

[apaddyinuk]

Well I just hope that by KLM doing this it does start to have a cascade effect on the other airlines!

[keel beam]

Golden Ticket - You cynic!

It is not to keep BA at the top of the thread list.
As I work for BA, I find it IS a missed opportunity for BA.
It is also a missed opportunity by other airlines (especially Virgin).

[wawkrk]

I am totally at a loss to understand some airfare rules.
I want to book Leeds - Moscow. 7thDec.
Return fare - 214GBP, fantastic.
But, one way fare (which I need) 1,081GBP !!!!
What do they do with all those empty seats when the pax throw the unused
return ticket in the rubbish bin?.

[AlphaWhiskyRomeo]

I'm not quite sure how they work, but have often found myself booking "dummy" returns to get a cheaper sector.

Whether this makes a difference in a country like Russia where you need a VISA, I don't know.

[Cyrano]

What do they do with all those empty seats when the pax throw the unused
return ticket in the rubbish bin?.
You may find that most of the seats aren't empty, because from experience the airline revenue managers know they'll have a higher no-show rate on the return leg of cheap return tickets, so they set the overbooking level correspondingly higher... :cool:

Oh, and incidentally, return fares being much cheaper than single fares is neither new nor unique to KLM - carriers have been doing this for decades.

[wawkrk]

(Oh, and incidentally, return fares being much cheaper than single fares is neither new nor unique to KLM - carriers have been doing this for decades.)

Yes I know its not new I have been doing dummy tickets for many years but I have never seen a fare which cost 5 times more for single before.
Not all mainline airlines have this policy now.
The LOCOS I think never.

[aeulad]

I thought seen as KLM is a big player in the UK market, it was worth starting a new thread with a little update.

This winter will see some changes to the KLM UK network.

Aberdeen goes from 4 flights a day to 5
Bristol goes from 4 flights a day to 3
Cardiff goes from 4 flights a day to 3
Edinburgh gets 2 737-700 flights a day
Glasgow gets 1 737-700 flight a day
Humberside goes from 4 flights a day to 3
Newcastle gets 1 737-800 flight a day

Regards

Mike

[nef]

EDI and GLA have had 737s operating various KL flights for years now - Forgive my lack of knowledge, but why are 737-700 flights worthy of special mention? Are they new to the KL fleet or something?

Wrt Scottish flights, this appeared a couple of weeks ago: Air France KLM set to expand service from Scottish airports - Scotsman.com Business (http://business.scotsman.com/business/Air-France-KLM-set-to.4209479.jp)

Apart from the extra ABZ flight, not really much in the way of the expansion suggested - Not on KL's behalf anyway. Perhaps something to come from AF?

[CabinCrewe]

Forgiving your "lack of knowledge"- 737-700's have never operated to Scotland for KLM, and yes they are new to the fleet. Well worthy of a mention IMHO :). It will be interesting to see if this is an upgrade from F70/100/50 on some services or downgrade from 738/9's.

[MerchantVenturer]

According to the KLM web booking engine AMS-BRS and AMS-CWL stay at 4 times daily in Nov, Dec and March. They drop to 3 x daily in Jan and Feb with the lunchtime rotations removed.

This happened on both routes last winter as well.

[mathers_wales_uk]

Does anybody know when the Embraers are due to come online and which a/c type they will be replacing?

More problems at CWL today where KL1060 has been cancelled and the KL1066 (following flight) downgraded to F50. KL1069 also downgraded to F70.

Over the last few days we have seen the KL1060 being canx and F50 has ben in the last 3 days and will return again tomorrow.

Considering CWL is now a 5 crown station and is one of the priority stations, how come it is us thats getting all the rubbish?

[airhumberside]

According to the KLM web booking engine AMS-BRS and AMS-CWL stay at 4 times daily in Nov, Dec and March. They drop to 3 x daily in Jan and Feb with the lunchtime rotations removed.

This happened on both routes last winter as well.
Same with HUY too according to Amadeus

[goldeneye]

Can anyone tell me what routes KLM currently use the MD11.
I Know they operate to YVR & YUL.

[aeulad]

Has anyone any experience of KLM staff travel procedures at AMS? Is there a seperate check in area?

Regards

Mike

[Seljuk22]

MD11 summer 2010: Bonaire–Guayaquil–Quito–Bonaire, Dehli, Montreal, Panama, Paramaribo, St.Maarten-Bonaire, Tehran, Vancouver

Maybe the same during winter?

[the_stranger]

@aeulad (http://www.pprune.org/members/88047-aeulad)

No there is no seperate staff travel checkin anymore, it has been removeed some months ago.
You can however use the self checkin machines or go to a staffed desk. (or even checkin online)

[aeulad]

Great! Thanks for the tips! After I have checked in, do I go to the gate like in the USA, or do I find out whether I am on or not before security?

Danke Weld

Mike

[the_stranger]

Depends on the number of pax. If the flight is really empty, they might give you a seat. If not, you have to report at the gate and about 20 mins before departure they will, or will not, give you a seat.

[aeulad]

Great! Thanks! With BA at Heathrow you have to wait at check in if you are not onloaded straight away to find out if you have a seat. AMS sounds more like the states where you go to the gate, which I prefer, as there is no rushing through security!

Regards

Mike

[wawkrk]

Are KLM losing the plot?.
LBA-AMS return 2 pax economy, 198 pounds.Fine.
Euroselect (Premium economy) 1,200 pounds!
For what? Similar seat surrounded by empty ones and bigger rotten snack that nobody wants.Oh,and a pelmet disguised as a curtain.
Bye bye cloggies.You have been devoured by the frogs.

[No RYR for me]

that is an art called yield managent. If you dont know how it works go and do your homework. Re the frogs. Because the Cloggies are better at yield management they have made more money than the frogs even though the frogs have MUCH better food.. so go figure :cool:

[Capetonian]

even though the frogs have MUCH better food.

I wouldn't agree on that. The average meal you get in a restaurant in Holland is far better than the unvarying poncy dross dished up in France by a surly unwashed waiter. For me the Clogs win on all counts.

[bobleeds]

No RYR for me,

Having read many of wawkrk's well informed posts on this board, I'm sure he does not need to do any homework on Yield Management.

Perhaps the same cannot be said for KLM sales, because at the price of £1,200 those seats will be the highest yielding empty seats on the aircraft.

[Cyrano]

No RYR for me,

Having read many of wawkrk's well informed posts on this board, I'm sure he does not need to do any homework on Yield Management.

Perhaps the same cannot be said for KLM sales, because at the price of £1,200 those seats will be the highest yielding empty seats on the aircraft.

It's pretty easy to kick revenue management, but one piece of information we're missing is how far in advance of travel the original poster is booking. Several carriers I know of (Aer Lingus for one, potentially KLM for another) set their premium economy/full flex fare at a single level and don't change it as they get closer to the date of travel. That means that the premium economy fare looks completely uncompetitive until a few days before travel, when the economy fare has climbed far enough to catch up with it.

If I look at the fares for LBA-AMS-LBA for tomorrow, the cheapest economy round-trip fare is STG£537.50. At that point, the option of paying another £62.50 to get lounge access, fast track, full refundability, etc, doesn't look quite so stupid.

Now of course you can reasonably argue that an airline should offer advance-purchase premium-economy fares, and I wouldn't disagree, but it seems to me that right now KLM (or Aer Lingus, as the other example I know of) is choosing to make their Europe Select fares attractive only for late bookers.

C.

[pwalhx]

It is quite probable the seats wont be empty but will be occupied by people flying further afield, which I venture to suggest is exactly the passenger KLM want in those seats, not filled by someone just going to AMS or somewhere shorthaul.

[wawkrk]

The fares I looked at were for February next year.As a Flying Blue Platinum for life member I am just a few air miles short to get through to Sydney with 2business class award tickets.
The value of air miles seems to have come down over the last few years. In the past I already used 2 business class award tickets to Hong Kong and Singapore and 2 to Cyprus.Euro Select always seems to be quite empty to me and is poor value for money.

[kang_yu_chen]

Does anyone know which Weight and Balance System is being used at KLM?

[OntimeexceptACARS]

CODECO, as far as I know.

[Currock Base]

The going to move to Amadeus Altea Flight Management.

[JerryW58]

Hi all,

Two weeks ago, following newsmessage was published in the papers:
KLM gaat prijsvechten - Binnenland | Het laatste nieuws uit Nederland leest u op Telegraaf.nl [binnenland] (http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/8003674/__KLM_gaat_prijsvechten__.html?sn=binnenland,buitenland)

In short:
KLM is going to fight the LCC's flights from AMS to major European tourist destinations such as Madrid, Barcelona and Milan by agressively lowering fares.

My question, isn't it better for KLM to cooperate with the Low Cost Carriers (i.e. Easyjet) on their common routes? Perhaps some kind of code sharing agreement where Easyjet is acting as a feeder?

Looking forward to your opinions!

Jeroen

[Skipness One Echo]

My question, isn't it better for KLM to cooperate with the Low Cost Carriers (i.e. Easyjet) on their common routes? Perhaps some kind of code sharing agreement where Easyjet is acting as a feeder?

Utterly different business models I'm afraid. easyJet are point to point LCC with no explicit ability to make coonnections, KLM serve a hub and spoke at Schipol using their narrow bodies to feed the long haul at the hub as well as offering a (arguably) quality product on inter European routes.

Not sure what easyJet would add to KLM as they don't offer through ticketing.

It's comparing apples and pears !

[bravoromeosierra]

The problem with the concept of connecting from KLM to easyJet is the fact it'd be a highly dis-pleasurable experience come down in my opinion.

I don't have (that) much against easyJet, but I'd want to fly KLM on all legs of my connections.. wouldn't want to touch easyJet if I'd paid hundreds on flights to the States, for example.

Doesn't exactly do wanders for the KLM brand either.

[SOPS]

and whats wrong with the Transavia brand?

[akker34]

Regarding the added value:

To my understanding, several routes are flown by both KLM and Easyjet in which the blue bird is following the orange bird (as in load factors). Therefore, I think that by, for example, buying seat blocks KLM can operate more efficient by using the resulting capacity on more profitable routes.

Regarding the service differences:

The service issue is a valid point you bring up.. Aren't most of these flights related to feeding passengers into the hub? In which people go for the service of the intercontinental flight?

Regarding Transavia:

I think that for KLM it is indeed better to "use" their daughter Transavia to compete with Easyjet. Before that a lot of work needs to be done regarding their business model?!

Tim

[virginblue]

A BBC report suggest that KLM will add three more AMS routes from the UK in 2013, in addition to Manston already announced.

BBC News - Could airport hub capacity see UK lose out to rivals? (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21275784)

Any idea what those could be?

Largest markets (airport size-wise) not served by KLM are (thus not including secondary airport at cities already served):

Liverpool
Nottingham East Midlands
Belfast
Southampton
Doncaster
Exeter
Bournemouth
Southend
Inverness
Derry
Blackpool
Newquay

Of those, only Doncaster, Bournemouth, Derry, Blackpool and Newquay have no AMS link at this point, while the others are served either by Easyjet (LPL, BFS, SEN) or Flybe (EMA, SOU, EXT, INV).

Not sure if we can rule out LPL and SOU given that KLM axed an existing link not too long ago.

[adfly]

They technically operate out of SOU, via a codeshare on Flybe's 3 daily flights. They also had their own service on Saab 340's at one point but that ended ages ago!!

As for the new airports I'm going to guess would be they BOH or EXT, EMA and BFS/BHD.

[onyxcrowle]

Liverpool did gave KLM but they left. Probabky due to other airlines at the same airport offering the same route.

[chinapattern]

How about Gatwick, Stansted or even Luton?

[Winniebago]

How about Cambridge?

[CabinCrewe]

Don't they already operate to INV ?

[Flitefone]

KLM are losing UK market to the Gulf carriers. Many of those long haul pax from the UK regions that used to hub through Amsterdam to the east and south, are now using gulf carriers as an alternative to connecting through any European Hub whether Amsterdam, Heathrow or elswhere.

The logical response from KLM is to serve more regional airports in UK, to offer a closer link to the world than presently available from BA, Emirates, QAtar and Etihad.

It will be interesting to see where KLM end up in UK and how Emirates in particular responds.

For example a code share between Emirates and Loganair could see all of Scotland's long haul market east and south Connecting through Glasgow.

Interesting times as ever!

FF

[virginblue]

I would put my money on EMA, BHD and BOH.

How about Gatwick, Stansted or even Luton?

The article says cities, not airports, so I don't think any other London airport is on the cards. Besides that, does not make much sense as the new routes are about connections through AMS which are no longer available for UK residents through LHR.

Don't they already operate to INV ?

That's Flybe with a single daily flight. Not sure if it is codeshared, but in its current form it is of little use in a hub and spoke operation.

How about Cambridge?

I have thought about some more exotic destinations as well, given that KLM chose Manston over all the other, more estalbished and bigger airports I mentioned above.

[EI-BUD]

Interesting to see KLM publicly stating that they plan to compete with LOCOs aggressively. KLM charge insane prices for one way flights, trying to encourage the passenger to do a return and hence not cherry pick between them and others, and commonly LOCOs.

KLM did do some sort of trial on some AMS UK routes with low one way fares. Does anybody know what the findings of this trial were? Have KLM extended this or is this the basis of the new aggressive approach?

I recall the routes included Leeds/Bradford and Liverpool (I realise now confined to the KLM history book!)

EI-BUD

[cornishsimon]

I know that NQY recently sent out an online survey and specifically mentioned AMS in a would you use it type question.


cs

[NorthSouth]

Well, whatever KLM does with its UK market it's going to have to sharpen up its customer service, if my recent experience is anything to go by. Flight times changed without telling pax, 'booked' on alternative flights that they knew were full and already overbooked, clunky, inaccurate and unhelpful website, transit desk at Schiphol with long queues and virtually no-one on duty. It's a shadow of its former reliable self.
NS

[onyxcrowle]

Looks like Bhd no Dsa

[CabinCrewe]

losing out? Lots of ex UK routes are showing month on month AMS increases. INV must be a codeshare as bookable on KLM.

[goldeneye]

Inverness is BE's flight with a KL codeshare.

How about DND getting a flight to AMS on a CB operated DO328 :ugh:

[Flitefone]

CAA stats for last ten years show Netherlands has not fared well from UK, especially when compared to flows to Middle East and Turkey. Total pax today is not much more than in 2001 for UK - Netherlands.

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/80/airport_data/2011Annual/Table_11_Intl_Pax_Traffic_to_from_UK_by_Country_2001_2011.pd f

There is no doubt that KLM are suffering from EK competition, both in UK and at home. KLM is not alone, but at least they can fight back by serving their hub in Amsterdam from more regional airports in Europe than the Gulf carriers can offer.

3 years ago there was no EK service from AMS to DXB, now its a daily A380 with Etihad shortly starting AMS - AUH.

Ultimately all this competition will be good for UK regional airports and bad for legacy carriers in Europe and Asia.

FF

[virginblue]

It is interesting that KLM expands to all those small UK regional markets whereas in Germany AirFranceKLM has retreated from a lot of those markets. They used to link AMS/CDG with places like FMO, DTM, PAD, BRE, LEJ, but all those flights have disappeared over the past few years. All of them have at least a link to Lufthansa's Munich hub, so the strategy of being the single hub feeding airline from small UK airports that BA no longer serves and that will never be served by the likes of Emirates or Etihad may be a good idea. The question really is if those places can sustain feed even into a single hub like AMS. It will be very interesting to see how MSE works out.

[insuindi]

@virginblue - minor correction: BRE is still served up to 4 daily by both KL (F70) and AF (E145). For other mentioned airports you are absolutely right.

[StoneyBridge Radar]

Could be quite a coup and a positive achievement if MAG have managed to nab KLM for STN, EMA and BOH, though I believe BHD is to be one of the new routes.

[virginblue]

@virginblue - minor correction: BRE is still served up to 4 daily by both KL (F70) and AF (E145)

You are absolutely correct - BRE indeed is one of the longest-served routes in the KLM network. I meant DRS (which was served in the 1990s) - although there are rumours that the route may be resurrected in 2013.

[Cleared For A Coffee]

Don't suppose there's any chance of them coming back to LPL then? :E

[airadio]

Actually yes :ok::ok: but dose it need them i think not:}

[EZY7117LPL]

Why doesn't LPL need them?

[Devonair]

In light of EXT, IOM etc now showing on the KLM website airport drop down menu, is this an indication of Flybe extending their codeshare agreement with KLM similar to what is in place with AF?

[Cyrano]

In light of EXT, IOM etc now showing on the KLM website airport drop down menu, is this an indication of Flybe extending their codeshare agreement with KLM similar to what is in place with AF?

I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but if you try to book a flight on klm.com from (for example) EXT to a KLM destination, I think you'll find you're offered a connection through CDG with an AF code. The presence of EXT, IOM etc in the airport drop-down seems to be simply a way to sell AF-coded connections too.

The Dutch pilots union agreement with KLM limits to 2 the number of codeshares KLM is allowed with any non-Group/non-alliance airline. This has been a sticking point for quite some time.

[Saab2000 Freak]

Could the presence of GCI and JER on the KLM drop down list show there may be a potential for KLM to codeshare on the new Blue Islands service to AMS

[onyxcrowle]

Klms booking engine shows liverpool yet you cant book ait half the other newer ones are via fracne. The rest eg bhd shows errors . Si dont thk klm are bringing any new routs. Keast of all dsa. Though odly huy is no longer bookable it says contact air France

[Phileas Fogg]

Say again all after "Klms" :ugh:

[OntimeexceptACARS]

Haha, Onyx you didn't fly for Balkan in the 70s did you? :}

[onyxcrowle]

Sorry that was written. Half asleep on the mobile app last night. Autocorrect seems to have hit as I went to send. It.
What I. Meant was Half the new routes listed say contact airfrance. Liverpool is there but shows errors along with bhd.
As for my last post this galaxy phone is infuriating with its autocorrrct. Even simple words seem to change after they are typed
Apologies for the odd spelling

[virginblue]

How about Dundee? The folks at HIAL were making noises a couple of years back that they were lobbying for a route to AMS. Could DND handle a Fokker 70?

[davidjohnson6]

Perhaps Dundee could show that routes like Belfast and Birmingham are sustainable before the Govt starts subsidising the airport for flights outside the UK...

[virginblue]

Well, places like Manston, Humberside oder Durham Tees Valley do not have domestic routes to Belfast, Birmingham, Glasgow, Manchester or Belfast, but nevertheless a serivce to AMS, so I don't think that domestic services are an indicator whether or not a KLM service would make sense or not.

[johnnychips]

Durham TV and Humberside both have chemical and oil-related industries nearby which have links to their Dutch equivalents. Manston is an interesting experiment.

[sxflyer]

Manston has a growing offshore renewable industry in the area, with Ramsgate fast becoming a major port for offshore servicing. I wonder if that had any bearing on KLM's choice?

[Peter47]

Which do you think makes the more sense, BA serving Rotterdam or KL serving Manston?

It may actually be quicker if you live in Thanet or East Kent to travel to many destinations via AMS than via LHR, but is the East Kent market large enough to fill the aircraft?

[chrismoose]

KLM seem determined to become more like Ryanair and are now charging for a checked bag for economy pax!

[Hotel Tango]

I thought it was bad enough with the majors in the USA doing this. It's par for the course with LCCs but when carriers of KLM's stature decide to go down this road, others will follow and yet another deconstruction of a long time industry standard will disappear. The industry is really going downhill fast now.

[FRatSTN]

For goodness sake, just because you have to pay for a bag doesn't really mean the industry is going downhill fast. Some people are still stuck in the old traditional ways... the industry is revolutionising.

I've always thought that extra charges for checked-in bags is a fair structure. The people who are costing the airline more to transport them by adding extra weight to the aircraft (so increasinf fuel use and cost) and increasing the risk of delays get charged more.

It encourages people to be more respinsible travellers. The people who travel more responsibly, eg. by avoiding checked-in bags when they are only travelling for a short time, being more cost, time and environmentally efficient are rewarded with a lower fare.

[Hotel Tango]

It encourages people to be more respinsible travellers. The people who travel more responsibly, eg. by avoiding checked-in bags when they are only travelling for a short time, being more cost, time and environmentally efficient are rewarded with a lower fare.

What utter simplistic cr@p. :ugh:

[Flyer70]

So I pay for my 22 kg checked bag, but the person sitting next to me who weighs twice as much as me, doesn't pay for their extra weight.

[teleman]

The person next to you may have just walked on board and sat down, While your 22kg checked baggage has had to be processed by maybe 2 to 3 people passed though security transported to the aircraft loaded into the hold.

[Hotel Tango]

The person next to you may have just walked on board and sat down, While your 22kg checked baggage has had to be processed by maybe 2 to 3 people passed though security transported to the aircraft loaded into the hold.

So what? Do you know how much extra fuel a couple of dozen grossly overweight pax per flight costs the airline per day? Why should the rest subsidise them? Perhaps fares should be based on the individual's weight!

[Monty Gordo]

How is this going to work? I am booked with KLM from BHX to Rio de Janeiro in May routing via Amsterdam, essentially a long haul flight. As I have already booked I would not think this charge would apply to me, but if i booked next week, would it?

Could be a recipe for disaster: having to pay for ONE checked bag to Amsterdam, and then what? Two bags up to 23kilo plus a carry-on. How much will that cost?

[FRatSTN]

Obesity isn't really as avoidable as a checked-in bag that many, with some responsibilty, could do without.

How many people flying with Ryanair or EasyJet for instance will take a 20kg each? Probably not a lot! We take a max of 2 20kg and at a push, 3 15kg bags between 4 people (2 male, 2 female) for 2 weeks away because, like may people, we won't pay extra for luggage we realistically can manage without.

Given the chance to have a 22kg bag each for no extra cost, like near enough every person on the planet, we'd probably take advantage of the luxury or even feel obliged to get the value out of the total cost. But we can easily manage with much less and the charges make us more repsonsible, and if everybody could do that, think how much uneccessary weight, time and money they'd save!

[Hotel Tango]

Monty, it won't affect European sectors on through long haul bookings. It's purely if start and end of your journey is in Europe.

[virginblue]

Relax. Apparently it is still free for all Flying Blue members regardless of their status, so one only has to enroll with their FFP (at least for starters, maybe it is only an incentive to push up membership numbers).

[Hotel Tango]

More utter cr@p from FRatSTN based on the fact that my family and I never took more bags than NEEDED for any trip even with a free allowance of 4 x 23kg.

[FRatSTN]

More utter cr@p from FRatSTN

I would appreciate you not to adress me in that tone purely as you don't agree. Remarks like that clearly show no subject related substance you can add to adress a valid alternative point to make.

I am using my family as an example of many. You hear about families all the time flying with an airline like FR and EZY who are concious about the amount of luggage they take to avoid the extra cost. In essence, people take less luggage and the airlines saves money. So unless you have any good reason why you feel that's not the case, then feel free to discuss!

[Hotel Tango]

Because KLM is not an LCC and should not allow itself to descend to that level. You're obviously a great admirer of RYR (probably an employee of theirs) and if you check my initial post I accepted that it's par for the course with LCCs. I use LCCs too (although arguably the more up market examples) and if I do I go with the flow. My point is that if legacy carriers such as KLM feel the need to go the same route as the LCCs instead of being a little more inovative, than as far as I'm concerned the industry IS going down the drain.

[Hotel Tango]

May I also point out that the original LCC, Southwest Airlines, which recently announced its 40th consecutive year of profitable operations, continues to include a free checked bag allowance.

[FRatSTN]

It's a bit pointless using Southwest Airlines as a comparison. They are in a completly different market and one where different strategies have been adopted.

Charging economy passengers for a checked in bag on short-haul flights doesn't now make KLM an LCC. Package holiday and charter flights like Thomson charge for bags and they are not accussed of turning into LCCs. Even Jet2 considers itself as a "cost concious lesiure airline" although in fairness is still generally seen as an LCC.

There is more than just checked-in bag costs to and LCC. They have a basic service, charge extras for any possible extra service they can think of, eg. priority boarding, reserved seating or SMS text confirmation and have cost saving/profit making initiatives like smaller hold baggage allowances and have quick turnaround times to maximise aircraft flying time etc etc etc...

With KLM, customers can still expect to get the service and flying experince they expect from an national flag carrier. They will have a comfortable flight, civilised boarding system and more importantly, still offer different classes and will always maintain a hub with worldwide connections in Amsterdam, unlike the vast majority of LCC's who operate with the point-to-point model.

KLM is still a world apart from a European LCC and KLM, Air France, BA etc. are never going to become quite like Ryanair and EasyJet.

And by the way, no, I don't work for Ryanair.

[Hotel Tango]

I'm sorry, but I just can't get my head around many of your arguments. Unfortunately, I have no further time today.

[RAT 5]

Just searched for a KLM european ticket in September. The very cheap = good value ticket, includes 23kgs hold baggage and 10kgs hand baggage. That, plus the fact that you take 2 pieces of hand baggage e.g. tax-free or computer, and a coat or umbrella etc. I'm not sure where this debate has come from. I'm sure, if the route was available with either of the main LoCo's, they could not match the service like for like. In my experience the LoCo's usually win if you travel hand baggage only. However, HiCo carriers usually have more flights per day, and daily, on the major routes, and thus a choice of times, often at more convenient ones. This IMHO has a value too in the overall cost. Having to check in at 05.00 on a holiday and coming home at 01.00 is often not worth the €50 you might save. OK a family could be €200, but knackered kids and wife are a holiday killer. The comparison between the LoCo's and traditional carriers really brings the truth about cost and value into stark reality.

[Sobelena]

FRat STN - I think HT's post re Southwest was a comparisson with other LCCs and not with KLM.

[Laasjet]

Hotel Tango

Your views are valid. Unfortunately, FR/STN is one of their zealots. They took a beating yesterday and, true to form, lash out at any and everything.

Can you image if they had taken over Aer Lingus, what I call a proper airline!

[FRatSTN]

More utter cr@p from FRatSTN

I don't see how that's "valid"

It's not my problem if somebody else doesn't seem to agree whether I think something is good or not.

But lets end it at this... It's a bit pointless now to even discuss this, because nobody is going to change their mind on what they think anyway!

[Rail Engineer]

As a regular flyer, what I see more and more is outright abuse of the cabin baggage allowance rules.

Recently went on a flight with my wife for the weekend using a major carrier. Our inwards flight to the hub was delayed by weather and we were the last to load. When we got to our seats we could not use the overhead lockers because they were full with bags larger than should have been allowed.

As a result we had to wander up and down with the stewardess looking to find/make room further along.

Now what annoyed me were the number of business travellers who were quite simply taking the p*** with the size of their cabin bags. Add to this the large rucksack users and now you have a developing problem which will only be made worse as people now try to push the bag size rather than pay. WE followed the rules but ended up being "punished" by those whose attitude appears to be to raise two-fingers to the rules.

I do not recall one single airline ever refusing to let someone into the cabin with what is clearly above their limit as I believe that their policies to the cabin crew are "not to make an issue of it" thereby pandering to the selfish group who will abuse any facility and reinforcing their attitudes.

[virginblue]

So BHD is confirmed...

KLM to begin scheduled services from Belfast City Airport. | Belfast Travel News (http://www.belfast-travel.co.uk/main/klm-to-begin-scheduled-services-from-belfast-city-airport/)

...two more to go. Any rumours floating around?

[pwalhx]

Now what annoyed me were the number of business travellers who were quite simply taking the p*** with the size of their cabin bags. Add to this the large rucksack users and now you have a developing problem which will only be made worse as people now try to push the bag size rather than pay. WE followed the rules but ended up being "punished" by those whose attitude appears to be to raise two-fingers to the rules.

As one of those Business Passengers you refer to with such disdain, I probably have paid a lot for more than you for my flight and am probably connecting from a long haul flight on a Business Class ticket which gives additional allowances. Allowances I need for long trips.

[ATNotts]

pwalhx

The issue here, in my opinion, isn't "the rules" it's the safety aspect of having such ridiculous quantities of baggage stuffed into the cabin.

It will only take one survivable accident, where needless lives are lost because the carry on bags prevent an efficient evacuation, and just watch the tables turn.

[lplsprog]

Is this only on the legacy carriers? The Lo-co airlines as far as I can see do police the cabin baggage vigourously as I frequently see them weighing cabin baggage at the gate any over the limit are put in the hold (with a baggage charge as well). The staff are eager to do this for they get a %age of the charge.:rolleyes:

[Tacitus]

Does anyone know if the MD-11 will fly only to Toronto
and Montreal this summer?Are there any other routes that have a dedicated MD-11 service?
The KLM states that the aircraft is being
phased out and I would like to have the chance to fly as
a passenger with the trijet.

[Skipness One Echo]

Toronto, Montreal and Los Angeles it seems.

[Will_McKenzie]

I think San Fran is another one, definitely is during the winter (Sept onwards) as I too am looking at doing it!

[Heathrow Harry]

I wouldn't - old planes with a so-so safety record in modern terms

I always found them cramped and noisy TBH

[Yahoo!®]

Yup MD-11 is really noisy and pretty pants to fly on to tell you the truth. The thought of long haul again on one of those fills me with woe

[cym]

I would agree, they are very noisy down the back and not very comfortable. Aren't BA launching the 787 on Canadian routes? Why not have your first 787 flight rather than last MD-11. (Present issues resolved of course!!)

[Heathrow Harry]

If you've flown one of BA 767's recently you'd understand why they are replacing them ASAP with 787's.....................

[cornishsimon]

Does LHR count as a KLM MD11 route ?;)

[onyxcrowle]

Any news on any more Uk announcements?.
They have yet to tell us who they all are.
Given MME and its poor performance perhaps they will move the flights to Dsa.
Wider audience and if using a fokker 70 it should fill up nicely.
Also why have they never flown Direct to Sumburgh/Scatsa. I thought Klm still had avro aircraft. Or could the small fokker be ol for the runway up there

[Richard Taylor]

Onyx,

Sumburgh or Scatsta?

Scatsta isn't used for scheduled services anyway, bar the scheduled crew change oil charters. Personally I do not know why they can't use SCS in some more enhanced way for schedules, as (from memory) it's closer to Lerwick than the 40-odd mile trek to & from LSI. Although I don't know how much it would take to carry out any upgrade/further upgrade at SCS, & I'm unsure of the topography around the place. Shetland doesn't have any high 'hills' as such, but the land around might still be challenging...not to mention the weather!

I doubt very much Sumburgh, as KLM would just use ABZ & passengers for LSI change at ABZ.

[onyxcrowle]

Well regarding Scatsa Id read somewhere it was extended to take the BAe avroliner.
There must be some equivalent in the Klm fleet.
But my main question about Sumburgh was the very fact there is no direct link to what is meant to he a fairly busy airport for oil workers.
Surely it would provide a better service direct.
Would Klm be able to get the E170/90 in and out of there ?.

[NorthSouth]

KLM to Shetland? Sheesh, where to start?
1) Shetland has a population of only about 20,000. There's no way that would support an Amsterdam service
2) There won't be anything like enough offshore workers on platforms off Shetland who travel there from continental Europe to justify a service direct from Amsterdam
3) Even if there were, the oil companies would want direct control over the schedule so it fed into helicopter flights and could be cancelled/amended at short notice. KLM wouldn't do that.
4) Taking the continent-based workers off the Aberdeen-Scatsta charters and the KLM schedule to Aberdeen would increase the costs of both - oil cos and KLM won't want that
5) Scatsta has one runway with LDA 1155/TODA 1319m - not sure about F70or E170 but tight for any jet apart from maybe Avro RJs. It also has no IAP to runway 06 - requires circling approach with hills all around:eek: Minima for a Cat C are 570ft on 24, 890 on 09
6) Sumburgh has ILS on 27 and various on 09, with minima 267/300ft, plus runway length about 100m more than Scatsta for both t/o and landing.
7) Given the roads, distance from Scatsta to Lerwick vs Sumburgh to Lerwick pretty much 6 and half a doz.
NS

[stab3.5up]

Was BHD not mentioned as route for klm?

[onyxcrowle]

Thanks for clearing that up. I was kind of thinking that was all about Klm in the after reading how Ryanair had planned to operate from Stornoway , But fell out with the authority over tryi g to obtain lower fees.
Plus I read somewhere theyd requested some improvements etc.
But however small. The western and Northern isles still collectively have a fair sized population.
Probably more than the Faroes and they have bought two A319's along with the rest of their fleet. All operating in Similar terrain.
My point is that it must be an expensive business for islanders to go on a package holiday ala Thomson. As its either a ferry or internal flight and thst is only as far as Abz.
Hence I asked about Klm .

[Richard Taylor]

Onyx, to Shetlanders, Aberdeen IS a holiday... :E

[onyxcrowle]

Lol true. But theres always inward travel.
While im not expecting daily flights etc , There must be something in it.
Maybe more loco carriers that like to call at remote airports.
Perhaps Syy can be called Edinburgh Northwest ;)

[virginblue]

If LSI cannot support flights to LON or MAN - not even on an seasonal basis -, what makes you think it could support year round flights to AMS? Given the limited connections offered through ABZ, GLA and EDI and the rather small number of passengers using those three routes, connecting traffic from LSI must be very limited indeed.

Even a single daily flight to AMS would provide almost as many seats on an anuual basis as are required to accommodate all passengers currently flying from LSI to GLA, EDI and INV, P2P or connecting...

[OltonPete]

Not sure what operated last year from UK airports but there seems to be some capacity cuts.

BHX Four daily from five (not been four daily in years) - flybe adding 240 seats a day though compared to last winter.

GLA Four daily from five now - is that usual?

EDI Five daily (2 of which F70's) from six now

MAN Five daily from six daily but all 738's

Heathrow 7 out of 12 flights by City Hopper

Leeds & Bristol three daily from four (but I think that is the same as last winter?)

Aberdeen stays 5 daily

Newcastle - four daily from five but 3 x 737 compared to 2 now

Source: KLM website and a GDS site
Pete

[MerchantVenturer]

Leeds & Bristol three daily from four (but I think that is the same as last winter?)


Yes, that's right. KLM Cityhopper's AMS-BRS has been 3 x daily in winter and 4 x daily in summer for the past few years. It's now all E190 in summer and will be all E 190 next winter according to the timetable which is a slight upgrade on last winter when some flights were F 70.

[OltonPete]

Cheers MV

All things considered not too bad for Bristol and Leeds with an extra 120 seats a day, which is some kind of consolation for Bristol having lost the Skyteam connection through CDG or some might disagree going by some of the less than enthusiastic comments re CDG on Pprune.

I must admit the last I flew from CDG on flybe, check-in was like a shed compared to the relatively spacious AMS.

Pete

[fl dutchman]

NCL- AMS has been 4x daily during winter and 5x daily during summer for a few years now. I think however the winter capacity is generally similar to summer with greater use of 737/738/739.

[Fairdealfrank]

I must admit the last I flew from CDG on flybe, check-in was like a shed compared to the relatively spacious AMS.


It's like comparing sheep and goats - CDG is a ****ehole.