View Full Version : NetJets Europe- the "get fired without cause" myth
AUGEAN STABLE SHREK
1st Sep 2006, 16:53
NetJets is a great company to work for. Great destinations, great Flight and Cabin Crew. For customers it is the simply best choice. Your Personal Airline.
But is it the best choice for the employees at the sharp end- the flight and cabin crew?
NJE contracts state that the employer may terminate the contract without cause.
This is a peculiar clause- people are afraid of speaking up as they might fall under this peculiar clause and get fired without cause.
Joining a Union or a Crew Council could be interpreted by the majority of NJE pilots as a high risk undertaking- you join the Union or the Crew Council you get fired.
NJE has in the past imposed changes to contract.
NJE has and does not negotiate changes to contract with the employees- as the peculiar clause and peculiar culture has prevented any initiative to create a Flight and Cabin crew representation body.
At NJE there are 3 different contracts- UK, ISLE of MAN, PORTUGAL.
According to information provided by APPLA the Portugese Pilots Association the following applies:
NJE operates Portugese registered aircraft under a portugese AOC.
No matter what contract NJE pilots are working under, and what nationalty they have, they have the right to be judged under Portugese Labour Law.
Firing of an employee without cause is not legal under Portugese Labour Law. The process of establishing a just cause "justa causa" has to be followed under Portuges law.
So forget the peculiar clause.
Joining a Union or making any effort to create Flight and Cabin Crew representation can not get you fired.
Union or Crew Council negotiators are able to negotiate stable long term career opportunites for NJE Flight and Cabin crew. Stable, long term career opportunites will attract the best Flight and Cabin Crew.
As it is right now, NJE imposes changes to contract without negotation as there is no Flight and Cabin Crew representation.
Why not join IPA or the Portugese Union- united we have a voice!
With improved T&C's the company would be even greater to work for.
The US NetJets Pilots have sucessfully improved their T&C's.On the IBT website you can read:
The International Brotherhood of Teamsters Local 1108 is dedicated to professional union representation for professional aviators. Our mission is to remove pilot job security, wages, benefits, and working conditions from the competitive consumer market by advocating a “safety first” work environment and establishing professional collective bargaining agreement standards across the industry. Strong Union representation neutralizes management pressures that focus on profits at the expense of safety. Professional career opportunities attract the best pilots, and only professional collective bargaining agreements provide stable professional career opportunities.
Smeagel
1st Sep 2006, 17:45
This needs to be publicised and NJE employees made aware that they cannot be fired without cause.
The problem is we have all seen it done. Recently a pilot was fired 'without cause'. He was told that if he signed an agreement that he would keep silent the company would pay his salary for three months in monthly instalments. If he spoke out they would immediately stop paying him.
This is the sort of treatment to be expected from NJE management. This is fact. It has happened.
Do you really want to work under such a regime?
scambuster
1st Sep 2006, 18:51
It seems every pilot currently working for Netjets Europe has the right to a portuguese contract and have those labour laws applied. :D
... and pay taxes in Portugal. :ugh:
Tax % Tax Base (Euro)
10.5% up to 4,351
13% 4,351-6581
23.5% 6,581-16,317
34% 16,317-37,528
36.5%% 37,528-54,388
40% 54,388 and over
Source: http://www.worldwide-tax.com/portugal/portugal_tax.asp
usedtoworkfornje
3rd Sep 2006, 07:18
I was fired by NJE without any cause whatsoever. No reason, just had a phone call and fired, end of story !
Myth ? Rubbish !
The only recourse, after some weeks of employing a Portuguese Lawyer, under local legislation, was re-instatement ! You really want that after being fired without cause !
The reality is somewhat different to the logical picture you paint.
I suspect I am one of many.
Smeagel
3rd Sep 2006, 11:11
Let's see what the usual NJE supporters make of this one.
City_Hopper
3rd Sep 2006, 11:29
Man...if only NJE crews had problems...
Believe me, when I say that the rest of the boys and gals here at HQ suffer from the same as you and we see everyday how much we and you are pushed.
"He" has gone, but the others and their mentality is still very present...and I see no will to change whatsoever. Lot´s of interests prevail...lot´s of lobbies...
I come to the conclusion that the cancer was not him...at least he made things for everyone to see...
Talk to you on the phone...
AUGEAN STABLE SHREK
3rd Sep 2006, 15:58
City Hopper: if you are interested check out, J1e2t3b4l5a6s6t8e9r9s.com - ommit numbers, for some reason the name is blocked- let the office force join the discussion...
Usedtoworkfornje: that's bad, but you got re-instated which proves the point, they can't get away with it.
More examples anybody?
Smeagel
4th Sep 2006, 08:25
The only recourse, after some weeks of employing a Portuguese Lawyer, under local legislation, was re-instatement ! You really want that after being fired without cause !
The reality is somewhat different to the logical picture you paint.
I suspect I am one of many.
There is the point. While eventually the company were forced to re-employ you there is no way you would want to go back. If you did how long before they found reason to fire you again?
The Paris 2 were fired after the usual NJE kangaroo court. They were called in to 'discuss' the matter. Next thing they knew they were dismissed. That's ok though, they were given an appeal. How long ago? Almost a month, it was strung out just like the original 'investigation' (hah!! That was a laugh, Inspector Clouseau could have done better) so that it will be almost three months after the event before they are forced to make a decision and those guys have jobs elsewhere.
In the meantime the company scramble around trying to get evidence that they didn't have at the beginning. Asking hotel staff who sat where and said what THREE MONTHS LATER. Are they going to admit they don't know or submitted their 'reports' to cover their own misdemeanours? Of course not.
However it is in principle NJE continue to fire people on a whim. They then abuse the system knowing they will never have to fully account for their actions.
Looong Haul, Scroll Lock and CL300. Nothing to say gentlemen?
Scroll Lock
4th Sep 2006, 11:19
No, not anymore.
Don't know any facts so cannot comment
I'm still thinking that those stories should stay within company. However, there is no fire with no smoke.
What ever happened, what ever went wrong with whoever, the only thing I can say is that there is too many people drinking something else than soda or water during tour.
No matter you are in rest, duty or standby the alcohol consumption should be refrened or even banned during those 6 days.
Some countries have a drinking habit, England is among them, how many beers at the bar at 1900 Lcl ? Come on ! It is not only NJE, it is all companies.
The attitude was wrong from those crews, I believe the company was fair for this event, and other ones. People had refuse rehab from the company, some other are denying what really happened.
Again even if illegal in the form, it is still an acceptable case for the company.
If you do not want to get into trouble steer away and read the FCPM, it says it all, just follow it, if you do not like it.... just leave !
Stay in SAM, but be cautious princess are meant to become queens....What if the prince does not make it to the next level ?
CL300, you are a scary fella!
1#there is no fire with no smoke.
Now that is a load of crap!
Just accuse someone and it must be true!!
2#No matter you are in rest, duty or standby the alcohol consumption should be refrened or even banned during those 6 days.
Who are you to tell someone else what he/she should do in his off time?
3#Again even if illegal in the form, it is still an acceptable case for the company.
Just read this again, EVEN IF ILLEGAL it is still an ACCEPTABLE CASE!
:ugh:
EatMyShorts!
4th Sep 2006, 13:22
The attitude was wrong from those crews, I believe the company was fair for this event, and other ones.
The crew paid a bottle of wine for a friend, they did not drink it. So, their attitude was wrong :bored: :yuk: :ugh: I don't understand you, CL300. I am very understanding for the company's needs, but there are things that are going terribly wrong. You will see yourself on the day that YOU will be in the focus of wild accusations. Wasn't it you flying too low on the approach? Fired!
CL300, you are a scary fella!
1#there is no fire with no smoke.
Now that is a load of crap!
Just accuse someone and it must be true!!
2#No matter you are in rest, duty or standby the alcohol consumption should be refrened or even banned during those 6 days.
Who are you to tell someone else what he/she should do in his off time?
3#Again even if illegal in the form, it is still an acceptable case for the company.
Just read this again, EVEN IF ILLEGAL it is still an ACCEPTABLE CASE!
:ugh:
My dear Colleague, you cannot be OFF during your 6 days you can be either ON, STDBY or REST. During your days OFF you do whatever, for the rest read the manual...
ILLEGAL in FORM not in FACTS...
Crews are in breach of the FCPM when they drink any alcohol while on tour, period, again read the manual...
The crew paid a bottle of wine for a friend, they did not drink it. So, their attitude was wrong :bored: :yuk: :ugh: I don't understand you, CL300. I am very understanding for the company's needs, but there are things that are going terribly wrong. You will see yourself on the day that YOU will be in the focus of wild accusations. Wasn't it you flying too low on the approach? Fired!
Well my dear, after some time with the company, even if sometimes the company was not really wide open, at least if you can back up your decisions with facts you are OK, even after being called down for explanations.
With remote operations that we are facing you need to use a lot of you superpower to make it happen but it does work with time.
For flying too low, does not help to reduce landing distance , or a better landing on top of it it is illegal in a lot of places so don't do it, if you do you have to be ready to face the consequences.
Buying or selling wine when the rules are not the one you are used to, may be you should think twice.. no ? For myself it is dead simple, not a drop of alcohol whilst on tour for 25 years....
NETJETS is not a vacation club, you are there to work...ON, REST, STDBY, nothing else.....
EatMyShorts!
4th Sep 2006, 15:18
Come, on, we all know that 99% of pilots do have a drink in the evening. As a consequence the company needs to fire or discipline everyone. If you want to fly alone, then go for those rules. Having fun is different...
simmatt
4th Sep 2006, 16:01
Firstly there is no alcohol policy in the company that stops one from purchasing; there is certainly not one that stops you being around those that are having a drink.
If there were we would not be able to fly any of our passengers as we would be guilty as we are in the same aircraft as them enjoying a drink.
One of the reasons for dismissal in the company’s letters was that people were with others consuming wine that lead the company to believe that in that case all were.
Ever been the nominated driver, gone to a pub and stood the round and purchased a beer for those who you were driving home,(whilst not drinking your self as the driver of the evening?) according to the company’s take on this if you do this you are guilty of a drink drive charge. Can you hear that in a court of law? NO, I thought not.
ON REST OR STBY? Never heard such a load of twaddle, in you are resting the time is yours.
Read your books again and read the 8 hour and the recommended but no policy on 12 hours rules and then gain a life.
Just a thought, both DM(used to) and CR are happy to meet crew down route for a beer and a chat, better get on and sack the whole company!
Watch this space, the company I believe has a fight on its hands and those accused are happy to get blood on there hands to prove that it was not as they claim it was.
winkle
4th Sep 2006, 16:49
Does this mean that when you are on tour during your rest period you are not allowed to consume alcohol. what if you finished at your flight at 1600 and were briefed for the next day to take off at 2345 briefed to fly until say 0900. does this mean you cant have a beer or 2. standby after 11 hours - bring it on! work that one out..... ;)
Does this mean that when you are on tour during your rest period you are not allowed to consume alcohol. what if you finished at your flight at 1600 and were briefed for the next day to take off at 2345 briefed to fly until say 0900. does this mean you cant have a beer or 2. standby after 11 hours - bring it on! work that one out..... ;)
well since you can be "reactivated" after 11 hours....do the maths yourself...
Remember, for the company you have only 3 colours when ON duty those are Flying, STDBY, or ZZZZZZ... no OFF... OFF is after Day 6 or before day 1..
Sine you cannot be OFF during your "tour of DUTY", the answer is obvious no ? :{ := :*
ON REST OR STBY? Never heard such a load of twaddle, in you are resting the time is yours. Just a thought, both DM(used to) and CR are happy to meet crew down route for a beer and a chat, better get on and sack the whole company!
Watch this space, the company I believe has a fight on its hands and those accused are happy to get blood on there hands to prove that it was not as they claim it was.
For all those reason , I still say that these matters should not be discussed in public.
If somebody tell you to hang yourself are you going to follow ?
You can meet someone at the bar , chat and have a diet cola no ?
People involved are grown ups and can sort themselves out I think.
EGTH was a nice place, good memories from this place. :cool:
happyjack
4th Sep 2006, 23:06
CL 300. You are so full of CR.P I do not know where to begin!
I believe you must be NJE management so indoctrinated with the bull in that company you are beginning to actually believe it yourself.
If you are always on standby that is duty time. That gets added to your weekly accumulator. You CANNOT claim that as you did not get called it does not count. Time off duty is free time to do as you choose. The law states that you must not report for a flying duty under the influence of alchohol. If you CL300 decide not to drink for 25 years that is your perogative. Do not force your narrow minded views on other very professional persons.
Your ignorance is utterly astounding.
Moreover just get a life!
CL 300. You are so full of CR.P I do not know where to begin!
I believe you must be NJE management so indoctrinated with the bull in that company you are beginning to actually believe it yourself.
If you are always on standby that is duty time. That gets added to your weekly accumulator. You CANNOT claim that as you did not get called it does not count. Time off duty is free time to do as you choose. The law states that you must not report for a flying duty under the influence of alchohol. If you CL300 decide not to drink for 25 years that is your perogative. Do not force your narrow minded views on other very professional persons.
Your ignorance is utterly astounding.
Moreover just get a life!
management ----indoctrinated----bull----happyjack ?.... Does not sound right
It is sooo hard not to drink over 5 nights ?.... poor soul
I love this thread, the most negative posts are coming from UK, the dumbest as well, it looks like that on the island very few people did actually read our litterature (company).
It is so true that following the advice of one of my colleague, I ask 3 questions on every tour with a new person (regarding our ops) and guess what? All brits got it wrong because they did not go in the books for a start ! := I have to correct this one guy got 2 correct.... :D
So bulling, indoctrination, usw.. please get YOURSELF a life ! Operate the aircraft as per PORTUGUESE RULES and not what 's it CAA and you will see the overall operations under a brand new light !!!
And by the way our contract is 18 ON the rest OFF....:E
happyjack
5th Sep 2006, 08:06
CL300.
I do not care what your "contract" says. You cannot be on 24hr standby. Even Portuguese standards do not allow that.
NJE flaunt every rule in the book and you are supporting them in this. They ride rough shot over INAC paying their way through rules they don't like. When are you guys going to wake up to your exploitation?
There are many good jobs out there with good employers and NJE aint one of them mate!
Scroll Lock
5th Sep 2006, 10:58
No come on guys, lets steady on and simmer down shall we?
Maybe we can show a little more dignity and professionalism?
CL300, I have agreed with you on another thread trying to offset some of the purely negative posts about our company, but I think you're going a bit far now. I won't comment on your generalising the biggest group of nationals in our company or whether I find it good CRM to test and lecture your co-workers, but I will give you some facts about the use of alcohol.
Our manuals do allow us to consume alcohol, but only within a fairly short period of time at the beginning of our rest period (not that unusual in aviation, I'd say). What you are when you are when your duty line is empty (no ZZZ, no standby and not active) is open to discussion. A discussion that is getting some constructive input on jetblasters (where it belongs - if you want my opinion you'll have to ask me there).
Another fact is that one of the criteria we were selected for is being sociable enough to go to the bar and have a drink together after work - something they asked all of my five references.
Having a glass of beer or wine with colleagues over dinner well outside the legal curfew is not unprofessional, nor undesired in my interpretation of the rules. In fact, I believe that it is a perfect way to wind down after a busy day and to get ready for the next one.
Erik.
EatMyShorts!
5th Sep 2006, 12:20
Hello Erik,
very well said!
winkle
5th Sep 2006, 13:10
hi thanks for trying to put me right on my interpretation of the rules and law. my hypothetical situation would mean you would have had no sleep before being "reactivated". how can you be "reactivated" when you have been briefed to carry out a night flight. i believe under portugese law you must be given xx hours notice in order to prepare for a flight. i think it is section 18.5 in the legal bit of paper. what i didnt see in the law was an exemption for nj. ask yourself this, if you were "reactivated" and had only an hours sleep would you fly your family on a med haul flight. alcohol is not mentioned becuase in this case it is irrelevent i am talking about a professional pilot who prepares for the task given. dont forget northern europeans only sleep once in a 24 hour period especially without alcohol. so from my situation when do you go to sleep having finished at 1600 when expected to report in say 30 hours time (2200)for a 10 hour duty. as a reminder the human body does not "store" sleep, its a phenomenum that comes with being tired. so go to bed at 1900 so you can be ready to start at 0300 yeh right!. then since we spend about 18-20 hours awake before our next sleep period oh oh looks like bed time at report duh. when i buy a share you aint gonna be my pilot. infact when i spend a couple of big ones my pilots are gonna be top of their game and i will be asking you questions about your fatigue.
on a final note tired sober pilots are more dangerous than a well rested pilot whether they consumed a small amount of alcohol or not.
I work to live.
:ok:
I know I was pushing a little,
however, on purpose to get those threads driven towards our forum, where people are still wondering if I'm a NJE pilot.
All things being equal, towards the negative posts, the 4 above are representative with the only one constructive being outside UK.
For the times and other limitation I can only ask you to spread the word of IPA to get the thing straight. At least yu are reacting which is good since I was told that enrolment rate is slowing down. ( people tends to forget).
SO next time down in LIS have a look of the colours in Ijet....you will remember I'm sure...
And if a little "over this thin line" made you think about all this , this is good, at least you read how the management can see your life through the other side of the lens... :eek: :mad: :suspect:
south coast
5th Sep 2006, 16:12
cl 300
I am lost, please explain what you mean?
Are you really a good guy or what?
Smeagel
6th Sep 2006, 10:33
What is wrong CL300? Did a pilot from the island steal your wife? I cannot begin to guess at what is causing your resentment but clearly it cuts you deep.
You say this matter should be discussed in private yet so far have made seven posts. Not really a smart way of keeping it low profile is it?
How is the view from your ivory tower?
cl 300
I am lost, please explain what you mean?
Are you really a good guy or what?
my dear colleague, there is no good or bad guy there is ONE company for the same goal and the same books to follow.
Regarding the subject of this Duty?Rest?Stdby, I have a feeling that a memo should go out to clarify this matter.
Who knows ? :D :confused:
What is wrong CL300? Did a pilot from the island steal your wife? I cannot begin to guess at what is causing your resentment but clearly it cuts you deep.
You say this matter should be discussed in private yet so far have made seven posts. Not really a smart way of keeping it low profile is it?
How is the view from your ivory tower?
How long ago have you been in the office ? There is not a lot of ivory down there, except on some big grins from sales :hmm:
Low profile... welll since I'm right there is nothing wrong in giving a text explanation about the portuguese regulation is it ?
It is not because you did not read them the actual proper way that you should say so many negative inputs.
Wife stolen ?... How proud of yourself can you be to think that you can own a woman ?..... However the Sussex girls are esay to pick up :mad: :\ :O
No ressentment about UK, just facts....and again read the book, and ask for an explanation I'm sure that FF or MP would help you to understand the basics.
Cheers !!! :D :) :ugh:
AUGEAN STABLE SHREK
6th Sep 2006, 18:43
Economy - overview:
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/graphics/dictionary.jpg (https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/docs/notesanddefs.html#2116) https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/graphics/listing.jpg (https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/fields/2116.html)
Background:
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/graphics/dictionary.jpg (https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/docs/notesanddefs.html#2028) https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/graphics/listing.jpg (https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/fields/2028.html)
Following its heyday as a world power during the 15th and 16th centuries, Portugal lost much of its wealth and status with the destruction of Lisbon in a 1755 earthquake, occupation during the Napoleonic Wars, and the independence in 1822 of Brazil as a colony. A 1910 revolution deposed the monarchy; for most of the next six decades, repressive governments ran the country. In 1974, a left-wing military coup installed broad democratic reforms. The following year, Portugal granted independence to all of its African colonies. Portugal is a founding member of NATO and entered the EC (now the EU) in 1986.
Portugal has become a diversified and increasingly service-based economy since joining the European Community in 1986. Over the past decade, successive governments have privatized many state-controlled firms and liberalized key areas of the economy, including the financial and telecommunications sectors. The country qualified for the European Monetary Union (EMU) in 1998 and began circulating the euro on 1 January 2002 along with 11 other EU member economies. Economic growth had been above the EU average for much of the past decade, but fell back in 2001-05. GDP per capita stands at two-thirds that of the Big Four EU economies. A poor educational system, in particular, has been an obstacle to greater productivity and growth. Portugal has been increasingly overshadowed by lower-cost producers in Central Europe and Asia as a target for foreign direct investment. The government faces tough choices in its attempts to boost Portugal's economic competitiveness while keeping the budget deficit within the eurozone's 3%-of-GDP ceiling.
Source:https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/po.htm
In 1974, a left-wing military coup installed broad democratic reforms.
A poor educational system, in particular, has been an obstacle to greater productivity and growth.
Flintstone
6th Sep 2006, 20:08
A load of egotistical crap
Nice going, bet you're a bundle of laughs to fly with what with that Napoleon complex.
CL300
10th Sep 2006, 16:46
[RIGHT]
Source:https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/po.htm
In 1974, a left-wing military coup installed broad democratic reforms.
A poor educational system, in particular, has been an obstacle to greater productivity and growth.
Purpose of the post?
America's view of Europe?
You are not happy with portuguese people ?
Well, and I can read that I'm not a good guy :{ :suspect:
At least I'm not dumping ST on a whole country.. :=
CL300
10th Sep 2006, 16:49
Nice going, bet you're a bundle of laughs to fly with what with that Napoleon complex.
Wrong person but nice try :-)
AUGEAN STABLE SHREK
11th Sep 2006, 08:29
Inferiority complex
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferiority_complex#column-one), search (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferiority_complex#searchInput)
An inferiority complex, in the fields of psychology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology) and psychoanalysis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychoanalysis), is a feeling that one is inferior to others in some way. It is often unconscious, and is thought to drive afflicted individuals to overcompensate, resulting either in spectacular achievement or extreme antisocial behaviour. Unlike a normal feeling of inferiority, which can act as an incentive for achievement, an inferiority complex is an advanced state of discouragement, often resulting in a retreat from difficulties.
Early work in this field was pioneered by Alfred Adler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Adler), who used the example of Napoleon complexes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleon_complex) to illustrate his theory. Some sociologists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociology) have proposed that an inferiority complex can also exist at a wider level, affecting entire cultures. This theory, which is controversial, is known as cultural cringe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_cringe).
Classical Adlerian psychology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_Adlerian_psychology) makes a distinction between primary and secondary inferiority feelings. A primary inferiority feeling is said to be rooted in the young child's original experience of weakness, helplessness and dependency. It can then be intensified by comparisons to older siblings and adults. A secondary inferiority feeling relates to an adult's experience of being unable to reach an unconscious, fictional final goal of subjective security and success to compensate for the inferiority feelings. The perceived distance from that goal would lead to a "minus" feeling that could then prompt the recall of the original inferiority feeling; this composite of inferiority feelings could be experienced as overwhelming. That the goal invented to relieve the original, primary feeling of inferiority, actually causes the secondary feeling of inferiority is the "catch-22 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catch-22_%28logic%29)" of this dilemma. This vicious circle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question) is common in neurotic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurosis) lifestyles.
Napoleon complex
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleon_complex#column-one), search (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleon_complex#searchInput)
In the fields of psychology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology) and psychoanalysis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychoanalysis), Napoleon complex (or Napoleon syndrome) is a colloquial term used to describe a type of inferiority complex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferiority_complex) suffered by people who are short. The term is also used more generally to describe people who are driven by a perceived handicap to overcompensate in other aspects of their lives.
Alfred Adler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Adler) pioneered the psychological work on inferiority complexes, and used Napoléon Bonaparte (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleon_I_of_France) as an example of someone whom he thought was driven to extremes by a psychological need to compensate for what he saw as a handicap: his small stature (though in actuality, Napoleon's particular shortness is a myth; he was in fact slightly over 168 cm, or 5 ft 6.5 in[1] (http://www.napoleon.org/en/essential_napoleon/faq/index.asp#ancre54), and of average height in his day). Typically people with this complex will compensate in many ways, reaching beyond their personal performance. A person with a Napoleon Complex may set pictures in their home to lower levels and make other such accommodations which will enable them to feel taller in their surroundings.
Compensatory behavior exhibited by those with a Napoleon complex may also include being overly aggressive or argumentative and a need to over-achieve, which all serve to give the person a sense of greater self worth.
An example of somebody with the Napoleon Complex is the character Curley in John Steinbeck's Of Mice and Men (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Of_Mice_and_Men). Curley finds the need to prove himself by fighting larger men, such as Lenny.
I am sure you taller than 168cm....
Flintstone
12th Sep 2006, 12:56
Wrong person but nice try :-)
It was not intentional. Freudian slip?;)
sandramm
12th Sep 2006, 18:36
Hi Guys,
I see you talking about netjets , u seem to know what ur talking about, but I would like to know one thing how do you do to apply for a position of cabin crew with them, for a european base.
Thanks a lot
Sandra a future es Easyjet hopefully :)
PPRuNeUser0215
12th Sep 2006, 20:43
Go to NJE homepage http://www.netjetseurope.com/home.html?lang=eng then click contact us followed by career.
The email address is given for various departments including for Cabin Crew recruitment.
CL300
13th Sep 2006, 17:04
It was not intentional. Freudian slip?;)
who knows ? I love these situations where only an happy few can understand. However since it is height related , I have to say that this can be right.
PS sorry to hear that this is it not sorted yet.:mad: :ugh:
Flintstone
13th Sep 2006, 21:28
who knows ? I love these situations where only an happy few can understand. However since it is height related , I have to say that this can be right.
PS sorry to hear that this is it not sorted yet.:mad: :ugh:
Much appreciated.
About 'this' tall eh? What bra size?;)
sandramm
14th Sep 2006, 14:02
Go to NJE homepage http://www.netjetseurope.com/home.html?lang=eng then click contact us followed by career.
The email address is given for various departments including for Cabin Crew recruitment.
Thanks a lot AMEX, but I have another question: is it hard to get a job with them???
Sandra
CL300
17th Sep 2006, 17:26
...... OR a new starter who has had the brain washing treatment and it hasnt worn off yet, (it will though!), I have seen it many times in the past ;) :}
You are so high in the seniority list ? So we have a good chance to fly together then !! question mark is who will be the commander then , if you made it through.....:\ :{ :* :E
meatball
30th Sep 2006, 17:03
I am trying to get as much information as possible on Netjets. Anybody out there currently with them, preferably using Barcelona as a base, please pm me. Thank You.
seupp
30th Sep 2006, 20:32
I have the same request as meatball, i.e. info 'bout NetJets Europe.
"Hard days off", stand-by, pay, retirement etc.
Thanks/seupp.
The roster is mid-Month for the next Month. You are contracted to work 18 days, usually a combination of 6/4 and 6/5. Days not rostered are hard days off.
Standby at NJE is standby on tour or sometimes standby at home at the beginning of a tour. These count towards the 18 days work.
First year FO Eu 42.500 (45.000 as of 1/1/07).
First year Capt Eu 72.500 (75.000 as of 1/1/07).
From then on it's 2% per year (expected to change in the foreseeable future).
There is a savings plan to which the company contributes if you're on the Isle of Man contract and other plans for those from Portugal and the UK.
Great colleagues, great variety, decent roster.
Also check http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/factfile.php?id=s37af5kkt7wwbrenn4vkpephbh1mt7j6yh738ecpay9b bhmp76w
If you like the current package, you'll like it even more in the future. All sorts of plans cooking to improve in order to get the numbers of newhires. I believe another 150+ required next year and increasing competition from airlines that are hiring.
Erik.
AUGEAN STABLE SHREK
1st Oct 2006, 09:38
But be aware- the 600 plus NetJets Europe pilots have no representation. Now take that into consideration when thinking about your T&C's, management will change T&C's as they like.
Thank you erikv,
So are there any representation talks currently brewing, and in such a case how far have they gone?
Thanx again
seupp
Smeagel
1st Oct 2006, 23:10
They have got nowhere. Management in Lisbon have refused point blank to even talk to Portuguese union representatives.
In the last few days union representatives from the US have come forward in the NJE crew forum but things have a long, long way to go. You can be certain NJE management will resist with everything they have.
NJE is not a happy company. The 'improvements' referred to by Erik are just a wish list at the moment with no promises from the company.
Be extremely careful.
There are no representation talks at the moment. There is some dialogue as part of another project and we have been interviewed recently on behalf of our new HR manager, that's it.
I guess there are two sorts of NJE pilots:
a. senior ones who are still unhappy that their 6-5 contract was changed to 18 days a few years ago. They seem to think that it will never change.
b. those who joined on the 18-day contract and are willing to give management the benefit of the doubt. Most of these are fairly positive and take signals about a better contract, progressive payscale etc serious.
Fact is that there will have to be improvements to get and retain experienced pilots. This is so obvious that I feel it is safe to give management the benefit of the doubt. That's also why I've said that if you like the current package, you'll probably like it better in the future.
Erik.
hawkerpilot
2nd Oct 2006, 14:20
by erik V:
"
I guess there are two sorts of NJE pilots:
a. senior ones who are still unhappy that their 6-5 contract was changed to 18 days a few years ago. They seem to think that it will never change.
b. those who joined on the 18-day contract and are willing to give management the benefit of the doubt. Most of these are fairly positive and take signals about a better contract, progressive payscale etc serious."
Keep sticking your finger in the dike Erik! Do as if nothing happens! keep flying with unairworthy aircraft!pretend as if you are not tired and that you are not forced to work outside legal work and rest reg.! Pretend you are happy!Do always what your fleetmanagers says, pretend he is always right! pretend FF and CR are great guys, wanting the best for you.pretend netjets is your future!
But ......Don't decide for us. There are not many left of the first group you mentioned , most of them have left, ....on time, before the scam becomes clear to the public and press and tax departments.So the ones that complain are in your beloved group no 2.....
You remember the story about the old and the bold pilots? You won't see old pilots with Netjets, they were wise enough to leave..
hawkerpilot
2nd Oct 2006, 14:29
Oh Erik V. I forgot to add :
Pretend as if nobody gets fired...
You remember the b...sh..t they tell you in your indoc that nobody leaves Netjets....think again.
and: safety safety safety right? So safe to fly with them......!! great safety culture....! everybody speaks up, nobody gets punished or demoted right?
And you train with the best they say, flightsafety. That's why every airline trains with flightsafety right?
I am not here to laugh at you Erik, because I was once like you and I know where you are coming from, but only time will make you see things differently, and perhaps I can help people not make the mistake that I did which was joining them..
I can only advise all fellow pilots at NJE to JOIN I-P-A !!!!!
We need to get ONE voice before we start direct negotiations!
OPEN YOUR EYES new joiners! :eek: It is not as green as you think!
Get united, get one voice, get the pressure on LIS... :}
Guys, read my posts.
I'm saying there is no progression in our payscale, that we have no representation, that it's not perfect. However, things seem to be improving and I'm giving it the benefit of the doubt.
I would be similarly unhappy if I'd been sent an amended contract like those who were on 6-5 and had to accept 18 days. However, that happened some time ago. I doubt that will happen again, because the company just can't afford it.
Just trying to offset some purely negative posts with what I believe is a balanced view.
Erik.
AUGEAN STABLE SHREK
3rd Oct 2006, 13:10
NetJets Europe is a great company to work for.
Management is conducting a survey. Great, they are doing something.
In the 1930's they looked at how environmental factors affect productivity- turn down the heating, dim the lights...guess what happened- PRODUCTIVITY increased.
In psychology this is described as OBSERVATIONAL REACTIVITY-somebody is watching you, somebody cares...yes things must be getting better, lets get to work.
NJE Pilots- be aware!
Soon NJE will have 800 Pilots- and still no representation. Think about your T&C's - or management will be doing the thinking for you...
NetJets Europe is a great employer.
Hawkerpilot,
You are responsible of accepting an aircraft or not. If it's not airwothy, don't fly or you are guilty :hmm: Same if you believe that you are not fit to fly.... That's true in all the aviation business and should be applied by all of us.
Smeagel
3rd Oct 2006, 22:18
Approximately 50 pilots left NJE in 2005.
So far over 40 have left in 2006.
At indoc however they will tell you nobody leaves:rolleyes: If they lie about this what else will they tell you?
Read again what Hawkerpilot has written and think very, very carefully before joining. Think also about what tophe says. Nobody should accept an unservicable aircraft or fly against their wishes. The operative word is should. Sadly the commercial pressures are high and experience levels are reducing as Netjets finds it impossible to recruit many people with more than the bare minimum.
Low experience, quick promotion to the left hand seat, growing fleet and company, commercial pressure, a toothless safety department, poor training for those in Operations and other departments................... you work it out.
FormerFlake
3rd Oct 2006, 22:31
poor training for those in Operations and other departments................... you work it out.
You have to receive training in order for it to be poor.
No training, no SOPs and no effective supervision means the company can not legally fire you. Yet people get sacked left right and centre. All we want is a fair deal, and it is in the companies interest. I just do not understand the company mentality?????????????????
Smeagel
4th Oct 2006, 08:11
You have to receive training in order for it to be poor.
No training, no SOPs and no effective supervision means the company can not legally fire you. Yet people get sacked left right and centre. All we want is a fair deal, and it is in the companies interest. I just do not understand the company mentality?????????????????
I stand corrected FF.
It's even worse than I thought.
hawkerpilot
4th Oct 2006, 23:57
you are right tophe, that's the ideal world. how we want it to be.But you know very well that we are forced to carry way to many items during our 6 day tours, nothing can be written down,only when they think it is convenient, and if you do write it up against their will, your fleetmanager will be on your blackberry before you know it.The passengers have no idea what's going on. how "well rested" we are for instance. remember the memo we got about not being allowed to say what time we started that day to a passenger because they advertise that "we have only "fresh" crews and two captains in the cockpit !:} RIGHT?
by the way smeagel, can you update your list for who has left in 2006, because I am leaving finally this month to a much better job.
That's why I would also advise everybody thinking about joining: I know some of you guys are lowtime and take everything, but you better go to e.g. Flybe who are taking guys with 250 hrs, it is an airline and quick upgrades because they have ordered 21 more dash-8-400 . There is really now reason, high or low time to join netjets today, there are plenty of jobs around..When we started netjets was using the fact that the majority of us were ex airline and either layed off or flown for companies who went bust. These days are different. Don't let your life get miserable.
Yes you can join and then join the IPA and hope things change. It is better not to join at all................
Smeagel
5th Oct 2006, 10:00
Been doing some homework.
If Hawkerpilot is leaving then the tally for this year so far is 45. Some of those who have left have not even bothered to work their notice period on the basis that if the company can ignore contracts when it suits them so can the pilots.
I also know of two others who will be gone in the next three to four months plus many others who are awaiting the outcome of the management 'survey'.
AUGEAN STABLE SHREK
5th Oct 2006, 20:48
Toothless pilots- I'd say...don't bark, bite!