Use of PAN

[Gonzo]

PAN (urgency): A condition concerning the safety of an aircraft or other vehicle, or of some person on board or within sight, but which does not require immediate assistance.

From UK CAP493 Manual of Air Traffic Services, Part One.

Please can someone enlighten me as to how a situation where the flight crew are worried about going outside their crew hours would be sufficient to warrant a PAN?

[BDiONU]

Please can someone enlighten me as to how a situation where the flight crew are worried about going outside their crew hours would be sufficient to warrant a PAN?[/FONT]
Not really an ATC question IMHO. If a captain declares a state of emergency or of urgency then ATC give the appropriate response, we don't start quizzing the captain.

BD

[dublinpilot]

But what would the appropriate response be? "Roger"?

After all, a pan means "does not require immediate assistance".

If what the captain means, is that he requires a priority landing, then a mayday is the required call.

I agree that it's not up to ATC to question an emergency call. That would be a dangerous state of affairs. They could of course ask for clarification after the aircraft has parked, and make any reports they felt necessary, but an emergency should never be questioned while in the air.

dp

[Jerricho]

Not really an ATC question IMHO. If a captain declares a state of emergency or of urgency then ATC give the appropriate response, we don't start quizzing the captain.
BD

No we don't start quizzing, however the nature of the problem is a little more than "nice to know"

I'm guessing this "scenario" you mention happened to somebody we know Gonze.

[Gonzo]

BD,

PAN hydraulic failure, we set up a 'Full Emergency' and thus external emergency services attend the airport.

PAN sick passenger, we do nothing but check there's an ambulance arranged.

Therefore we do need to know what's going on.

[Gonzo]

No Jerricho, this senario (sic) didn't happen.

This scenario however, might have...... :E

[Jerricho]

One of these days I'm going to learn to check my spelling (spell checkers are such a crutch)

[Tarq57]

Anyone making a PAN call gets ATC's full and undivided attention. Unless the unlikely situation occurs where someone else then makes a MAYDAY call. (This doesn't seem to happen much, fortunately.)
This will include R/T priority, possibly increased seperation from other flights, and basically clearing the pilot to do pretty much anything he/she needs to.
Any quizzing occuring is measured against workload in the flightdeck, which would normally assumed to be high in the absence of contrary info, and is aimed toward providing the required service.
On the odd occasion, ATC have been able to assist in troubleshooting a problem or suggesting advice, so more info can sometimes provide a better outcome.
But basically, in the absence of detail, you make a PAN (or MAYDAY), we prioritise you for whatever, and alert the appropriate services.
For running out of duty time, you would definitely be afforded priority, but perhaps not require the RFS. Any doubt over that, you'd be asked.

[DFC]

For running out of duty time, you would definitely be afforded priority, but perhaps not require the RFS. Any doubt over that, you'd be asked.

I don't think "duty time" or the lack of it should ever be used in any call for priority.

If the aircraft commander feels that because of them being on duty for so long, they are unfit to the point that any delay could jepoardise the safety of the aircraft then the decision to divert and land should be made at the first indication that they can not reach the destination with suficient reserves (of duty).

Like passing service areas on the motorway and then falling asleep 100miles down the road!

Pressing on to the destination and then having to make a Pan to obtain priority because of being too tired to ensure the safety of the flight is very poor decision making. Probably up there with having to declare a PAN because of lack of fuel despite having passed several airports with ample fuel facilities.

The days of having to do long enroute holds and getting long delays enroute are long gone in Europe. These days, delays are taken for the greather part on the ground and the pilot should be aware that they will be short of duty hours (or not) at the point of take-off and make the decision then.

Regards,

DFC

[Tarq57]

DFC

As a controller, if somone has got themselves into that situation, it's simply up to me to afford the priority (and anything else) requested, not to question the decision making process that led them there.

[BDiONU]

BD,
PAN hydraulic failure, we set up a 'Full Emergency' and thus external emergency services attend the airport.
PAN sick passenger, we do nothing but check there's an ambulance arranged.
Therefore we do need to know what's going on.
Sorry, my rather simplistic reply gave the wrong impression. I meant that whatever the reason declared by the captain we (ATC) were not going to start questioning the reason but would always afford the priority. I hope thats a bit clearer now :)

BD

[London Mil]

You can just imagine the follow up :} Chap declares Pan when he is told to join the hold at BNN and expect a delay of 20 mins. ATC give him priority off the 'stack' and then ask for the nature of the emergency (a perfectly valid request). Chap says that he will be out of crew duty in 15 mins. BA/Virgin/Monarch etc. all still in the hold listening on the same frequency. ATC do their job (as someone has already intimated) but by the time the aircraft has landed, lots of middle-management e-mails/reports flying about.


ooooh, I would just love to see it actually happen; just for the amusement factor.:ooh:

[halo]

I am with Gonzo on this one....

By calling a PAN you are stimulating within the controllers the need to get an aircraft on the ground quickly. This information then gets relayed through a whole chain of people so that the when the aircraft finally arrives on the gate it is with the minimum of delay and the maximum reduction of any risk to the aircraft and its occupants. The degree to which we provide a final turnout depends on what the nature of the PAN is.... As stated by Gonzo, a PAN Medical will turn out an ambulance or two, whereas a PAN Hydraulic will generate a full emergency service turnout.

As ATC we do not ever question the integrity of a PAN call as up until this point there has been a tacit understanding between flight crew and controllers that it will only ever be used when truly required... This understanding is strengthed by the words used to describe a PAN in UK CAP493 Manual of Air Traffic Services Part 1 as in Gonzos original post.

The use of a PAN call because the flight crew are going out of crew hours IMHO displays poor planning and decision making on the part of crew who should've been aware of this situation before they got in the air and resolved the problem themselves by taking sensible decisions and not involving ATC. As DFC points out, to continue beyond to a point where you have to declare a PAN to obtain priority is purely ludicrous and may in fact open the floodgates for other crews to try the same thing.

The end result will be the devaluation of the PAN call and I'm sure that is the last thing anybody wants.

[Shitsu_Tonka]

This situation is used occassionaly in Australia by Medivac flights where they will declare a 'Mercy Flight'.

They are afforded priority - it is usually to do with out of hours crews.

The only requirment is to follow up with a written explanation of the nature of the declaration - but not to the ATC provider, just the Safety regulator.

I could not forsee a commercial operator doing it somehow. It would be bad planning to depart or not divert in the first place I would have thought (the majority of the time).

[LXGB]

I'm sure the 1261 for the incident will make interesting reading for SRG :)

LXGB

[EGBKFLYER]

****su - would they not use Pan Pan Medico, as per ICAO?

Maybe the Captain in the above scenario should have put out a Securité instead?

[Del Prado]

come on gonzo, who was it?

[Shitsu_Tonka]

****su - would they not use Pan Pan Medico, as per ICAO?

EGBKFlyer : Never heard of this before, and never heard it used. We would all probably scratch our heads. Aircraft that have Medical Priority (MED1 or MED2) will tell us either at flight plan stage, or on first contact, or may upgrade their priority in flight.

Mercy flights are only when they wish to operate outside the regulations, i.e. over duty times, or with INOP equipment that might be legally required, through a restricted area etc.

[pbrookes]

During my RT course, I was told that a PAN is used for an emergency that would be life threatening if worsened, and a MAYDAY is for the worst with impending doom!

Calling a PAN for over-running hours (although could be deemed life threatening if the pilot fell asleep!) is a bit of over kill! :=

[Gonzo]

My limited understanding of the situation that might apply in this possibly hypothetical case is that if the crew go over the three hours discretionary period (that might have applied in this case, perhaps...) then they become technically illegal to fly in UK airspace. As I said, I have a limited knowledge of this, so please shoot me down in flames if I'm wrong.

However, assuming the crew wanted to land before that time was up (otherwise why not declare a PAN - sick/fatigued crew or similar) and not divert to a nearer alternate, then where is the line drawn?

Next week will we see an outbound that's running late declare a PAN on take off from LHR because he wants to land at destination before it closes and has to divert?

Or perhaps an inbound long haul flight will declare a PAN as soon as the crew hears Heathrow have twenty minutes holding because the flight has many First Class connecting passengers?

Or is this all political thing to highlight an issue within the airline, I wonder? i.e. declaring a PAN means that reports will be filed.......

[London Mil]

Maybe I should advise pilots to declare a PAN as soon as I start controlling:eek: :eek: :eek: