Command Seat

[Squawk7700]

Mate told me he knows someone who got "pinged" for flying in the right seat (PPL) with his mate who doesn't fly in the left so he can get a feel for it. Raises the question for me... I thought the left seat was the command seat and the pilot must sit in it, but I can't find a reference to it in the regs via google etc. I know Commercially you can definitely switch over. Anyone able to search better than me or know the reg from memory? Thanks!

[archangel7]

You actually need a to do a right hand seat familiarisation CA45 with an instructor before you can fly on the right hand side in command.

[swh]

Mate told me he knows someone who got "pinged" for flying in the right seat (PPL) with his mate who doesn't fly in the left so he can get a feel for it. Raises the question for me... I thought the left seat was the command seat and the pilot must sit in it, but I can't find a reference to it in the regs via google etc. I know Commercially you can definitely switch over. Anyone able to search better than me or know the reg from memory? Thanks!

No requirement for the PIC even to be in the cockpit, which maybe the case on a long haul flight with the PIC in the cot fast asleep.

Some flight manuals require a specific seating arrangements for a pilot for access to switches etc, may or may nor specify the PIC.

You cannot have a "PIC in LHS rule" as poses a number of questions for single place aircraft, helicopters, and tandem aircraft.

No such rule exists.

[Di_Vosh]

but I can't find a reference to it in the regs via google etc

Because the regs are vague about this point, and do not specify which is the "Command seat".

Unless specified in the POH (e.g the RHS doesn't have a full set of controls, such as RH brakes) the PIC can fly from the RHS.

Some flying schools (certainly where I learnt) were against it, unless you were an instructor (Wasn't in their Ops manual either).

I've flown PIC from the RHS in a few a/c and agree with Archangel7, that it would be WISE to at least do a few circuits with an instructor, so that you can get used to the different visual clues and "muscle memory".

DIVOSH!

[The Messiah]

swh

As far as I am aware there is always someone with a command endorsement on type in the cockpit, this can be the F/O if the Skipper is in the rack.

Led to believe QF didn't satisfy this requirement for a lot of years until just recently and now F/O's are given command endorsements during their conversion. Maybe someone else could shed more light on this for me?

[swh]

My comments were in relation to the PIC, as the question was in relation to a command seat, not a person holding a command endorsement.

The PIC for a flight in an airline environment may be a C&T person in the jump seat, never occupying a control seat for an entire flight.

In terms of co-pilot ratings, you comments are equally applicable to a lot of turboprop operators if the captain goes to the facilities.

My understanding at QF FOs get command endorsements as the cadets require one in order to log ICUS.

[The Messiah]

On a check with a C&T in the jumpseat I think you'll find the Captain is still PIC not the C&T in the jumpseat.

As for cadets being able to log ICUS as the reason I beg to differ, because for years when the skipper was out of the cockpit it was technically not legal for the F/O to assume command in his absence when the F/O didn't hold a command endorsement simple as that.

CASA made QF align themselves with the rest of the worlds carriers, plenty of which don't have cadets.

As for regionals when the skipper uses the facility I don't know.

[VH-XXX]

So what does this mean to the lowly PPL?

Can he or she legally sit in the right Seat of a C 172 whilst his/her mate sits in the left and "watches" the guages, etc?

[Monopole]

VH-XXX,
Yes. Unless the POH or operations manual states otherwise. I can't recall ever seeing it in a fixed wing aircraft though. Every operator I have worked for has had it in their ops manual :ok:

W.
Did you reinsert this thread after J430 had a cry :E :E ?
Are you trying to play with our heads :} :} ?


Not guilty. :ok:

Sunny Woomera

[J430]

MONOPOLE

Thank you for that, I assume by your comments that you too noticed the thread missing. I had just put it down to me not seeing the woods for the trees........or going stupid.:ugh:

Woomsie claims they did not pull it, but I swear it did vanish even for only a brief time.

Cheers
J:ok:

[compressor stall]

Was the "pinging" for sitting in the RHS or breach of CAR 228 - unauthorised manipulation of controls? Why else would you put someone in a seat to "get a feel"?

[swh]

On a check with a C&T in the jumpseat I think you'll find the Captain is still PIC not the C&T in the jumpseat.

As for cadets being able to log ICUS as the reason I beg to differ, because for years when the skipper was out of the cockpit it was technically not legal for the F/O to assume command in his absence when the F/O didn't hold a command endorsement simple as that.

Another easy example, a command check in an Airline. Normal F/O, and Captain Under Training, and a C&T guru. The Captain Under Training is not the PIC (they may hold an aircraft and sim command endorsement), nor is the FO, the guy in the jump seat is, the guru. Until that Captain under Training is signed off as command standard by the airline, they are not permitted to be the PIC.

The PIC is nominated by the operator, not by the position one sits in an aircraft or the class of endorsement they have. A list of requirements must be met by the operator to nominate a person as the PIC.

Under the Australian regulations, an operator may only nominate only 1 PIC per flight, the PIC does not change to the FO, even if they "hand over", logs ICUS etc, the PIC is still the PIC regardless of where they are in the aircraft, even fast asleep in the bunk.

You maybe getting yourself mixed up with some of the mouth music used by some operators, e.g. “you have command” is not transferring command, it is transferring Pilot Flying, and Pilot Not Flying duties, nothing more.

An FO is never in command of an aircraft unless the PIC is incapacitated, and that is an emergency situation, not a normal practice.

[swh]

So what does this mean to the lowly PPL?

Can he or she legally sit in the right Seat of a C 172 whilst his/her mate sits in the left and "watches" the guages, etc?

The best way I can answer that question for you is this, if the rules and flight manual does not explicitly permit or deny an action, and that action is not the normal practice, in the event of something going wrong what would your peers say. I would imagine some slogans normally associated with drink driving would come to mind.

It maybe legal, but maybe not that smart. E.g. the slight move in the seating position from the LHS to RHS causes small but subtle judgment changes for even simple things like flying a circuit, let alone for say a forced landing.

The cost of a T.I.F. is cheap insurance.

[The Messiah]

Never seen or heard of a Captain under training flying with an F/O. Any Captain under training would fly with a training Captain admitedly he would be in the right hand seat and would be the PIC but a C&T in the jumpseat checking a Captain would never be the PIC which is was what I was getting at.

[Capt. Crocodile]

So what does this mean to the lowly PPL?

Can he or she legally sit in the right Seat of a C 172 whilst his/her mate sits in the left and "watches" the guages, etc?

This Q was raised at my flying school a few years ago. Turned out the insurance didn't cover PIC sitting in RHS unless they had an instructor rating. The insurance always gets ya!

I only ever flew RHS once and it's a lot different from left. I recommend going up with an instructor if you want to experiment, especially if you haven't got much flying experience.

[almostthere!]

You actually need a to do a right hand seat familiarisation CA45 with an instructor before you can fly on the right hand side in command.


What is a "familiarisation CA45" ??

[mingalababya]

What is a "familiarisation CA45" ??

I was about to ask the same thing!

[Dehavillanddriver]

The left hand seat is the command seat in fixed wing aircraft by convention only

There is no regulation anywhere that states that the Captain must sit in the left hand seat.

similarly the right hand seat is the captains seat in a rotary wing aircraft by convention.

It is "the way we have always done it" rather than a specific rule....

[mingalababya]

It kinda looks weird (http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1098692/M/) without anyone sitting in the LHS. BTW, isn't there something in the regs about having to be established on final by a certain distance from the threshold?

[Vee One...Rotate]

When you're training for the PPL, you're in the LHS but you're definately not the PIC - your instructor in the RHS is.

V1R

[Keg]

Never seen or heard of a Captain under training flying with an F/O. Any Captain under training would fly with a training Captain admitedly he would be in the right hand seat and would be the PIC

I think that is why swh talked about a 'trainee Captain' undergoing their check rather than normal line training. I've done a couple of 'final command checks' as the F/O. The C&T skipper was in the RHS for the first couple of sectors and then it was me in the RHS with the bloke under check in the left with the C&T bloke in the back seat. S/O took the other observers seat.

...but a C&T in the jumpseat checking a Captain would never be the PIC which is was what I was getting at.

I'm pretty sure our flight plan listed the C&T in the back seat as the PIC but admittedly he was checking the trainee Captain rather tan 'checking a Captain'.

Strewth this one can get confusing quickly! :O

[itsmygoONthescootter]

your friends friend is likely to have been pinged for letting an unlicened pilot fly since he has a ppl (no instructor rating)

as for RHS flying with out training or practice it can be tears I remember doing a lap in the RHS by myself for fun when I had about 150hrs and s#it my self on landing because I wasnt used to the aim point.

I didnt realise the problems with parallex error (aiming point drama), muscle memory (still trying to reach for the power with the right hand) This and others issues with out proper traning and practice can lead to an incident or accident

Also some aircraft dont have brakes on the RHS evan though they have
rudder peddles. ( one to watch for)

[TurboOtter]

I think this topic has been done before with no real answers.
I have flown from both sides, no problems. Parralex errors etc, what bull. Just fly the machine!

someone was talking about being in command, A quick side question if I may, during a IFR renewal, who is in command?

If the pilot being tested has to have a command rating why then do some ATO's consider themselves being in command?

[itsmygoONthescootter]

TurboOtta

This may be hard to belive for such a talented pilot like your self, but some people do have dificulty initally adjusting to the RHS.

If you've ever trained an instructor or observed some one do cts in the RHS for the first time you know this.



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[TurboOtter]

I'm not talented, **** I can't even spell.
I'm just an aveator that loves to fly and can't understand why people make it harder than it really is.

You should learn to fly in Africa, they call it the housempole. you pull back on da stick, house get'em smaller, push forward den house get'em bigger.

Life was meant to be easy, why complicate it

[archangel7]

Turbootter,

You sound reasonable... Time to up the medication mate!. When they were handing out brains, you were the first in the queue, and held the door open for the rest of us.

Here in Australia we take flying very seriously and we are not prepared to compromise on safety. Stick with flying in Africa mate, you and your attitude is never welcome here.

[Sykes]

Check your PM's

Sykes