AO Wetlease to takeover this QF route..

[CaptCloudbuster]

:confused: just got back from a trip and am surprised no one has mentioned this. Rumor has it at the staff forum up in Cairns last Friday Mr Kumar at No. 42 announced AO to commence Syd - Mnl as soon as AO stop DPS. Also he stated he was expecting strong opposition from AIPA...:ooh:

[twiggs]

It was mentioned on the QF cabin Crew thread and has incited a heated discussion about the use of sick leave!

[B A Lert]

WTF. Since when did AO own aircraft? My understanding is that their leased aircraft are now back with the owner. As a result, AO is just another labor supply organisation. Doesn't matter how it's dressed up, it's now no different from Adecco or Forstaff.

[flitegirl]

Yep, SYD-MNL from 8th December with the capacity available after the Bali withdrawal. Why the expected opposition from AIPA? (Excuse my ignorance.) Is it the flight time?

[Keg]

Why the expected opposition from AIPA? (Excuse my ignorance.) Is it the flight time?

It's one of the ways that 'management' use in trying to get the masses all riled up. They create a conflict whereby the union of an 'opposing' group of personnel will be cranky, create problems and be otherwise upset at 'my' group of people who are only doing their jobs. It's a way of reinforcing the 'us' and 'them' whether it exists or not. I don't think AIPA will be overly concerned given that AO still only has five aircraft worth of crew and so all we are seeing is the 'expansion' that AO was supposed to do being brought back onto mainline routes! Nothing to do with the crew concenred and everything to do with the short sighted, 'look how clever we are', re-invent the wheel idiots that QF call 'management'. :rolleyes: :ugh:

[CaptCloudbuster]

:suspect: my sources tell me none other than Capt Manning is travelling to FNQ this Friday to be "special guest" at a beers with the boss type forum for AO Wetlease techies... this is a first for him.... will someone attending fill us all in??

[WalterMitty]

Keg .."only 5 aircraft".. this AIPA type attitude is the reason J* has been so successful in bypassing this joke of an organisation. QF will grow AWOL as best they can and as its an AIPA agreement they will get away with it easily and then when its big enough , pull the rug out from under it and rebadge it J* and send the QF pilots back to mainline or insist on J* T&c's. WATCH it happen.

[rescue 1]

Qantas Link will be expanded and could float

AO is under the Qantas Link umbrella - so it will expand.

As you said Walter, AWOL will grow, and grow with an existing agreement and arrangement in place today with AIPA??

[Hugh Jarse]

Qantas Link will be expanded and could float
AO is under the Qantas Link umbrella - so it will expand.

As you said Walter, AWOL will grow, and grow with an existing agreement and arrangement in place today with AIPA?? So I wonder whether the other 300+ Qantas Link pilots will have their terms & conditions aligned with AO? http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i6/HugeArse/Icons/Laff1.gif http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i6/HugeArse/Icons/Laff2.gif

[Ron & Edna Johns]

So let's get this straight: Cairns-based 767 pilots will now be operating SYD-MNL and MNL-SYD, which will necessitate slipping in SYD. Meanwhile SYD-based 767 pilots are excluded from this flying. It's explicitly stated, apparently, that "mainline" 767 pilots (SYD are not to operate "AO" (CNS) flights....

How insane and inflexible will that be, and all for ideological reasons?

[flitegirl]

thanks Keg:cool:

[Keg]

R&EJ, don't forget that we now have QF mainline crew slipping in CNS to operate former AO flights out of there (CNS-SIN via Darwin?). Welcome to Carmen....resistance is futile! :rolleyes: :ugh:

Flitegirl, my pleasure. At the end of the day, AO have five aircraft's worth of crew and QF can (and will) fly them where ever they want them to. AIPAs (and my) interest will pique significantly when they seek to have 26 aircraft and to base them other than in Cairns.

(I've got mates in AO and wish them all the best. I've got nothing against AO and everything against 'management' that utilise trojan horses to lower pay and conditions).

[Don Esson]

.....I've got nothing against AO and everything against 'management' that utilise trojan horses to lower pay and conditions).

In what way are the AIPA members at AO lowering the pay and conditions of Mainline pilots. If the AO agreement has lowered pay etc., then you should be pointing the finger at the AIPA reps who agreed the AO deal. Wasn't one of the AIPA negotiators the present Qantas CP? After all, aren't the AO pilots Qantas pilots on secondment/leave of absence from the Mainline?

[Keg]

Don, AO was set up to be a 'low cost full service international carrier'. Different aircraft, uniforms, AOC, routes, etc. I agreed with the process to secure this flying for QF drivers.

However the premise that AO was set up on no longer exists and AO is now flying mainline aircraft (all the GE 767s are on the AOC), in mainline colours, mainline uniforms, mainline routes, mainline service, etc. That is what makes it a trojan horse and this is what I object to. I'd like to see the crew come back under the same terms and conditions that the rest of QF 767 drivers are getting.

I'll be equally cranky when in a few years time J* International gets re-badged as QF. Yet another example of a trojan horse.:* :ugh:

Clear yet?

[ftrplt]

and it was also set-up with the first few acft from mainline, then expansion to come with additional aircraft external to mainline.

[rammel]

I thought the CNS-DRW-SIN was operated by the AO wetlease.

[flitegirl]

No, CNS-DRW-SIN is now operated by mainline. According to the schedule it is going daily later in the year too! I also believe CNS/CTS will be operated by mainline too come December. Can anyone confirm that?

[Sonique]

Rumour has it CNS-DRW-SIN to go daily but with single aisle a/c operated by JQ asia.

[rammel]

I doubt it will go to J* Asia, as the flight always has relatively high load factors. Also the flight is always full of cargo on the way back, most of which connects in CNS with the NRT flights. This cargo will not fit on an A320.

[Avid Aviator]

Jet* Asia guys have been told by their management that they'll start on this route shortly.

[En Avion]

Joyce is doing a press conference about Jetstar in Cairns later today...

They SIN mystery deepens.

[jaded boiler]

One would hope, as a Qantas shareholder, that if Jet* Asia are going to commence operations on this route, that it would be as an adjunct to current QF mainline services. QF have a high business class load factor on this sector, many of these pax being wealthy Europeans on their way to a vacation in FNQ and northern Australia.

Wouldn't want to force all these high-yielders to make their way down to Oz on Cathay would we?

[rammel]

I would hope as Jaded Boiler says, that it is to supplement the QF services. I would think this service would be quite profitable for QF as J class is very full 80-90% and ecy is also very full. Also there is a large ammount of cargo carried from SIN-CNS with connex to QF flights to NRT.

I don't see how Jetstar could make more profit than QF on this service as the ammounts and type of cargo carried will not fit on an A320 and QF has a high pax load. Even if the pax component of the flight is not yielding enough (is this the Pilots, FA or Ground staffs fault? No) , the cargo component should more than make up for it.

The only way Jetstar could do this would be with an A330. This may be done, who knows what they are thinking. Soon QF will only be doing circuits of SYD as they keep losing destinations to AO and Jetstar.

[flitegirl]

Joyce was in Cairns yesterday and said to the press they would like to base a widebody in that port in the future. They will look at destinations from Cairns already flown now, and maybe new ones.

so it's anyones guess.

[twiggs]

One would hope, as a Qantas shareholder, that if Jet* Asia are going to commence operations on this route, that it would be as an adjunct to current QF mainline services. QF have a high business class load factor on this sector, many of these pax being wealthy Europeans on their way to a vacation in FNQ and northern Australia.

Wouldn't want to force all these high-yielders to make their way down to Oz on Cathay would we?

It wasn't a problem for the last few years while AO were operating CNS-SIN-CNS, so I don't see why it would be any different for Jet*.
J/C is available via DRW on QF as it always has been (whether CNS-DRW-CNS is an international or domestic flight makes little difference on a short sector)

[rammel]

It wasn't a problem for AO as they could keep up QF's cargo commitments, which I mentioned earlier. For JQ to do this, they would need an A330 on the route.

[twiggs]

It wasn't a problem for AO as they could keep up QF's cargo commitments, which I mentioned earlier. For JQ to do this, they would need an A330 on the route.

Rammel I was only referring to jaded boilers remark which implied business class was needed on this route.

[rammel]

Sorry Twiggs. AO also had very good load factors on this sector, so perhaps this is a sector that does well with or without J class. But it could do better with J class (higher yield pax).

[Machinegun Fellatio]

J/C is required on this sector as it is a a JAL codeshare and JAL insist on J/C being available.

[jaded boiler]

Thanks rammel, that was my point. Doesn't seem to be a problem filling the aircraft, whether all C class or J/C class, so why not continue with J class availability on the route, makes more money doesn't it?

[flitegirl]

Fellatio.... I'm not sure that the QF115 is a JAL codeshare. But the sector does carry BA and AF flight numbers.:)

[twiggs]

J/C is required on this sector as it is a a JAL codeshare and JAL insist on J/C being available.

CNS-DRW-SIN or CNS-SIN is not a JAL codeshare.

[twiggs]

Thanks rammel, that was my point. Doesn't seem to be a problem filling the aircraft, whether all C class or J/C class, so why not continue with J class availability on the route, makes more money doesn't it?

When AO started up, QF stopped doing CNS-DRW-SIN and AO started CNS-SIN direct.
QF still had DRW-SIN but it was then the last sector of the QF81 from ADL.
Therefore, J/C has always been available on this route via DRW, even though it meant changing to/from a domestic flight in DRW.

So if Jet* takes this route, my guess is that they will operate direct CNS-SIN as did AO.

[Machinegun Fellatio]

Why would anything going to SIN from CNS be a JAL codeshare?
I was talking about the Japanese market ex CNS.Specifically KIX and/or NRT.
I hope that is now clear.

[rammel]

QF used to do this route CNS-DRW-SIN with a SP which was always pretty full. Then it went to a B767 because the SP's were retired and it was still pretty full. Then AO took the route over (I don't recall AO going SIN direct, I may be wrong) and it was still pretty full and I would assume the yeilds would have been about the same or a little better than when it was a QF 767. What this did was allow QF to increase their ADL-DRW-SIN flights. Some days now there are 2 flights ex DRW to SIN within about 1/2 of each other. One ex BNE and I think either QF81 ex ADL or the flight ex CNS.

These are just the changes that I have seen on this route over the last 6 years, no doubt there will be more. But looking at the whole picture, I still don't see how Jetstar could make more money on this route without using the A330.

Also over these years the flight is one that consistently has a high load factor 75-80% and is always full of cargo. If this flight is not making money then that is a management issue, as it always full of cargo and has a high load factor it should be making a good profit. If we are not charging enough for seats, the Pilots,FA's and Ground staff can't be blamed for that. That is a mangement problem.

[twiggs]

Why would anything going to SIN from CNS be a JAL codeshare?
I was talking about the Japanese market ex CNS.Specifically KIX and/or NRT.
I hope that is now clear.

At least you were because no one else was!

[rescue 1]

I heard the the AO EBA talks are now off the table, and a new proposal has been put forward matching the Mainline ie 3%, then zero, zero??

[flitegirl]

rammel, AO flew CNS/SIN direct 3 days per week from Nov 2002 until the final flight this June. The DRW sectors were in addition and operated once or twice a week depending on the season:)

[ozyozyozy]

Were told recently by management that the CNS DRW SIN will soon be done by 738 a/c - just reporting on what we were told by our manager, may just be an interim measure before JQ widebody steps in perhaps.

This was an old rumour but never heard it from management before.

[triadic]

what about the other "story" that J*A have a spare a/c and will take over the SIN-DRW-CNS on a daily basis with a A320 sometime soon....?????? Wonder where the freight will go?