PPL/CPL snobbery

[Stumpyotoole]

Apologies if I am in the wrong section, I wanted to get something off my chest and see if anyone else has encountered the phenomena...

I have been working in a flying school for a few years now, watching people go through the PPL course. It has come to my notice that there is a certain snobbery found in the aviation world towards PPL holders who aren't going to go on and get a commercial licence.

I for one am a fairly low hours ppl holder but I have known since I first started flying that I wanted to work within the aviation world. Initially I had no plans to go commercial, but thanks to some great instructors and being bitten well and truly by the 'bug' I made the choice to get my commercial licence and then my FI. I am just about to start the ATPL groundschool and am looking forward to the next year immensely.

What troubles me is the attitude I have encountered from pilots at various stages along the course. I have, and may never have, a desire to work in the airlines. I have 'only' got a PPL at this stage, something which I feel still qualifies me as a pilot. Why should there be anything wrong in not wanting to fly a passenger jet?

There is no shame in having a PPL, it is a fantastic achievement for anyone- be they the fresh faced kids who come in clutching their trial lesson voucher with an excited yet nervous look on their face, or the 65 year old who has decided that the wife and kids have had their share and now it is time for him to have his turn and do something he really wants to do. I am beginning to resent the assumption that a PPL holder is somehow not worthy to call themselves a pilot. I realise that I am generalising slightly, and I apologise!

enough ranting - has anyone else got any thoughts on this (if you have understood what I am trying to say in my roundabout way!) ?
x

[Dannyc]

Hey Stumpyotoole, :}

PPL... not a pilot?!! :eek: Of course they are!!

Couldn't be in agreement more!! :}

They fly real aircraft, hand flown, demonstrate real airmanship and handling skills, perhaps more to be said than pressing buttons and flying an automatic bus... just like I want to!! :cool:

That last comment should stir some emmotions. :ooh:

Perhaps some thoughts on that would be useful.

Dannyc

[A330ismylittlebaby]

I havent really been in a flying school for more than 4 hours flying so i won't know what people are like. hopefully people on here will say that personality is all that matters in life.

am i right:confused:

[W.R.A.I.T.H]

It all comes down to people I guess...many of the cpl-to-be I encountered at my former uni turned from our fellows to demi-gods during the course of two years. To such extent that they seemed uncomfortable even to chat with you in the corridor :rolleyes:, be you glider pilot, PPL or whatever. Oppossed to that there were lots of other guys who remained nice people all the time. Interestingly those folks in majority were gyus who had to work really hard towards their license, like having two jobs aside the uni, or, in one instance, a guy had to endure a near breakup with his family who wanted him to become a surgeon in line with the family tradition. I guess those guys have discovered the true value of their dream early enough.
On the contrary, the other group had quite a few rich kids in their midst, who, from my perspective, in some cases just didn't know what to do with their $$. That's the way the story goes...

[Stumpyotoole]

indeed it is the way the story goes unfortunately W.r.a.i.t.h. Although as i said before, there is a bit of generalisation in my thoughts.
I get very frustrated when I am made to feel less worthy than those who fly 'proper planes'. hang on, surely if it has wings and is 'heavier than air' and it flies, it is a proper plane? and by plane i include microlites, gliders etc.
Why do we start flying? It is one of the only hobbies or professions I can think of that you do because you really want to do - it would be very hard work to make someone learn to fly if they didn't want to. with that in mind, are we not all after the same goal? to take to the skies and enjoy the thrill and freedom of conquering the z axis (sorry I appear to have gone off on a corny mission...). And regardless of where we end up in the profession (if at all), we all go through the same processes. every pilot will have a first solo somewhere under their belt, a first QXC, a first flight in a different type, it goes on.
A330 - personality counts for a lot, not just in this game but in all walks of life.
A great person is someone who can accept the fact that they may not, in fact, be great.
and Dannyc, these are for you :ok: :) :cool: :O

[jamestkirk]

when someone told me one that 'you must be good because you have a F ATPL/IR'

I replied ' that experience makes you good not the class of licence and having a professional licenece only makes mistakes that much harder to expain'

I am a 1200 hr instructor and have seen some excellent performances from low hour PPLs and dire performances from CPL/ATPL ers'.

It's all about common sense and attitude. If you come across people who are snobs because they have a blue licence then they are deluding themselves. I have been luck enough to fly and be trained by extremely experienced instructors and ex-RAF fighter pilots etc. And these are the guys/girls who are the most down to earth, professional and helpful.

Unfortunately this profession is full of ego's, ego's and more ego's.

Don't get too uptight about it. The egotistical people you explained are probably the one's who no-one wants to have a drink with. A lonely reality in such a small but social industry

[Mad Girl]

There is no shame in having a PPL, it is a fantastic achievement for anyone- be they the fresh faced kids who come in clutching their trial lesson voucher with an excited yet nervous look on their face, or the 65 year old who has decided that the wife and kids have had their share and now it is time for him to have his turn and do something he really wants to do. I am beginning to resent the assumption that a PPL holder is somehow not worthy to call themselves a pilot. I realise that I am generalising slightly, and I apologise!

Who says it has to be a him???

How about a 43 year old female, never considered flying, EVER.
Had a trial aerobatics lesson (or 4) and started their PPL.
Any snobbery found in flying clubs should be dealt with as in the "real" world - take them out and shoot them!!! Oooops - may be a bit too violent for this forum.
I, too... professional (accountant - sorry!!!)... mortgage due to finish in approx 4 years, am considering CPL and FI in the future. This obviously depends on my assessment of whether I will turn out to be a good pilot and can communicate this information to others in a practical fashion.

Met my first frozen ATPL on Thursday - and he seemed a really nice guy. Had obviously turned FI to hours build but said he was learning lots and really enjoying it. The nice thing...... He didn't know I was a student who just happened to be sitting at the same table in the club.

Don't judge them all with the same colour - there are nice people out there. Just shoot the pompous ones!!! :)

[An Artificial Member]

Ahh, PPL versus CPL, what's the difference, VIRTUALLY NOTHING, apart from being able to receive rewards/payment.

It is the qualifications attatched to the licence that give the licence any credit.

For instance you may have a PPL ME-IR and fly a high performance twin IFR at night all over Europe. Or a plain vanilla CPL which allows, well..........not very much!

AM

[swervin'mervin]

I have to say that I still find snobbery, but not necessarily from CPL guys and girls. Some of the worst I have come across are 'high' hours PPL holders who believe that hours in the book are more important than quality. Some I've flown with may have lots of hours but have just honed their bad flying skills rather than improving.

[Whirlygig]

Who says it has to be a him???
He didn't! Stumpyotoole used an example - that's all! The "fresh faced young kids" could have included women and girls as well! :ok:

I've not really come across any snobbery or sexism so I suspect it's down to individuals or maybe one particular club which seems to engender that attitude.

Cheers

Whirls

[LRdriver II]

Depends on the school mentality really..if its a school geared towards spitting CPL/ RHS airline cannonfodder out then you might get the whole "I am a real pilot" crap from the cadet monkeys. If its a mixed friendly club then it shouldnt occur and such immaturity should be stamped out by the instructors.

We all are there for the love of flying and invariably in my experience the muppets who act like arrogants knobs are the ones who see flying as a way to fame/money/adulation from the opposite sex and not passionate about flying....

[LLL]

I train at an aerodrome with a very large GA side to it. I find if theres snobbery it comes from the younger CPL's who want to move up into airliners and are surprised and look down on me cause I don't. The older GA pilots don't seem to mind a I have noticed it a bit in the older airliner pilot's though, kinda got the I'm soooo much better than you aura... I read checklists and my FO says "Check."

I'm training at the moment but I want to do an ag rating and go crop dusting that impresses people cause I'm a girl. The snobbery is just idiot people or people head's who've got swollen because they are a pilot. I work in aviation, it's not that flash really.

[B Fraser]

PPL- you have a well paid job so you spend about £6k and have a heck of a lot of fun.

ATPL - you have no job, you borrow £60k+, you work your nadgers off passing the exams and you wallpaper the loo with your rejection letters before selling your soul to Michael O'Leary for a pittance.

Sadly, because chavs want to fly to Marbella for the cost of a takeaway, the pilot in the family is becoming the secondary wage earner.

[Whirlybird]

I find any snobbery or sexism that there is exists among people who don't fly, or very low hour PPLs. They further you go into the world of aviation, the less it occurs. I don't think half my colleagues even notice I'm female, and no-one gives a rats arse that I have a CPL/FI. OTOH, among the general public, one woman refused to fly with me on a trial lesson: "I don't want to fly with a woman", and others have practically wanted to kiss my feet at the mere sight of my four stripes....which live in my flight bag 99% of the time.

I guess learning to fly must teach people something. :) :confused:

[S-Works]

Of course the best bit is when at a couple of hundred hours they get the non existant fATPL and when you talk to them the stock answer seems to be.... "I am a commercial pilot I am better than a PPL" (even though actually most of them are not commercial pilots they just have a CPL and no experiance and are actually cleaning bogs or flipping burgers....:} ).

I went the route of getting a couple of thousand hours then a CPL/IR with no intention of getting a job just to make mischeif....... :p Well actually I wanted the IR and the CPL was just an easy bolt on.........

[EGBKFLYER]

While we're at it - how about inverted snobbery?

I'm an FI and a CPL holder (proud but not snobby about it I hope!:) ). Went to a local strip with another instructor last week to ferry an aircraft back to base. We were both in 'instructor kit' (tie, shirt etc) and got a distinctly frosty, not to say unfriendly reception from some of the local microlighters there. I was quite taken aback - I'm a friendly sort and I like aviation folks no matter what they fly (or don't). Got the strong impression most of their attitude was a reaction to our dress, which is a shame.

Shows that snobbery doesn't necessarily flow one way though...:(

[Pitts2112]

While we're at it - how about inverted snobbery?
We were both in 'instructor kit' (tie, shirt etc) and got a distinctly frosty, not to say unfriendly reception
Maybe you didn't have enough stripes on your eppaulettes? :)
Pitts2112

[Whirlygig]

Perhaps they thought you were pretentious wannabees instead of real instructors!

Cheers

Whirls

[Genghis the Engineer]

It goes on everywhere.

Military pilots look down on civil pilots, CPLs on PPLs, high hour people on low hour people, strip flyers on people who fly from tarmac runways, gliders pilots on powered pilots, heavier pilots on microlight pilots, graduates from certain test pilot schools on those who doing test flying who didn't graduate from certain test pilot schools - the list is endless.

You'll find this outside aviation, as well, it's nothing peculiar to our field.

The only thing that I find in common with all of these bits of snobbery is that it's always somebody looking down upon a type of aviation they've not experienced or don't properly understand themselves, or at people they've not taken the trouble to talk to or fly with.

The solution? If you meet it, be nice, offer to go flying with them, or just ignore it.

G

[EGBKFLYER]

No epaulettes Pitts (thank God - how naff does that look getting out of a PA28! - see that other thread...).

I may just about pass for a 'pretentious wannabe' Whirls :\ (with my youthful looks etc etc) but my colleague is well into his 50s! Reckon they were just jealous that we didn't have to bolt the wings on our carriage before we went flying!;)

[Stumpyotoole]

I have to say, when I posted this thread, I didn't expect quite such a response! But thanks!

[slim_slag]

Stumpy,

Once you have completed your first solo you are as much a real pilot as the guy flying a 747 for the airlines. If there is a difference it's that your last flight was more fun, and remember the 747 pilot has somebody in the next seat making sure he doesn't make a mistake, you don't. You will find out for yourself, but I find that people who let it be known what ratings they have or how many planes they have flown are a bit strange, both in real life and on internet boards. Be humble and get under their skin another way. Do as I say and not as I do :)

Now, your goal is to get a taildragger endorsement and get a rag and tube based at a grass strip, nothing else counts ;)

[EGBKFLYER]

:ok: Hear Hear Paris Dakar. There are enough people attacking aviation and GA without us fighting amongst ourselves.

[NuName]

All start with a PPL. Now I am ATPL and fly biz jets. I never worked as hard as when I flew pistons. As you go up the aircraft ladder it gets easier and easier with reference to good kit and stable a/c. FL350 is much more relaxing than 3000 ft. If you have a PPL be proud of it, I would hesitate to jump in a 172 and fly away today. I need instruction, from a PPL.

[neilcharlton]

I think avaiation somehow atracts snobbs and just d1cks in general.
Look at all the posts on pprune , how many times have you been flamed or abused for stateing your opinion.
Personal insults , belittlement, one upman ship etc etc you name it we have it in abundance on this board. (i have also met nice people as well so dont get me wrong)

I dont know why avaiation attracts such a large number of w@ nkers !?

Take a look at the car forums on pistonheads or diver forums on divernet, you'll find generally people falling over themselves to help each other out , have a joke and give good general advice.

[oscarmike]

All start with a PPL. Now I am ATPL and fly biz jets. I never worked as hard as when I flew pistons. As you go up the aircraft ladder it gets easier and easier with reference to good kit and stable a/c. FL350 is much more relaxing than 3000 ft. If you have a PPL be proud of it, I would hesitate to jump in a 172 and fly away today. I need instruction, from a PPL.

I am in a syndicate of six, and one of our members is an ATPL who flys an A320 out of Heathrow.

I once asked him why, when he flies for a living, in his spare time he comes along and potters around in our little Jodel.

With a wry smile he replied "Ah yes, but this is REAL flying!"

:ok: :ok: :ok:

[Whirlygig]

Personal insults , belittlement, one upman ship etc etc you name it we have it in abundance on this board.

and this comes from someone who has used the words "W*nker", "Dick" in his post? :hmm:

Cheers

Whirls

[B Fraser]

[QUOTE=neilcharlton;2810667]I think avaiation somehow atracts snobbs and just d1cks in general .......... I dont know why avaiation attracts such a large number of w@ nkers !? [QUOTE]


You make the mistake of presuming that most people on Pprune have some relationship with aviation. ;)

[Lance Murdoch]

Wherever you go and whatever you do you will encounter snobbery, I suppose it is part of human nature. I think the thing is that you have to learn to distinguish between casual banter and genuine snobbery/ oneupmanship.
In my experience snobbery is usually a sign of insecurity and/or lack of confidence.
The people who are the most snobbish are usually the people who have very little to be snobbish about.

[vulcanpilot]

Oddly, the only snobbery I noticed was when I was part way through my PPL - a couple of the instructors seemed to treat CPL students much differently to their PPL student counterparts - to a point where some people wouldn't fly with them. They seemed to believe that teaching PPL's was now below them :ugh:

2 things stick in my mind that redeem the oft-believed 'gods' with their 'superior' licenses ... on my 1st solo, the owner of a Mk9 Spitfire based at the airfield (who really WAS viewed with awe) who was 'held up' behind me as I flew the circuit and landed congratulating me on my 1st solo, and the crew of a BA 737 patiently waiting at the Hold in Jersey as I landed the Chippy from my 1st circuit after being signed off, commenting over the R/T about my 'nice landing'.

A lot of the 'big boys (and girls)' use the social club in Jersey and are more than happy to mix with us lowly PPL's. Now as for cabin crew........... :mad:

[Pudnucker]

Try the boating fraternity... I work in it and had a boat... Got so fed up of snotty and unprofessional w*nkers in it that I bought a plane instead.

To be honest, in general most people involved with flying have been really good to me. Any snotty ones either usually have the piss taken out of them (a well timed fart behind them when they're not looking usually works) or are ignored anyway!:}

[IO540]

Haven't read the whole thread but in the UK a CPL is purely an exam passing exercise on the way to becoming an airline pilot, with a starting salary as low as 20k p.a. in the RH seat of a 737, or worse a RH seat of a turboprop doing night cargo, while furiously thumbing through the airline job ads looking for something a lot better.

Nothing to be proud of, IMHO. No more than doing a Masters in Multimedia at one of UK's many second-tier "universities".

Outside of air transport employment, the scenarios where a CPL is usable outside the AOC context are very very few. I can think of a paid company pilot, and very little else.