MANSTON - 2

[Jes]

I've just been looking through the CAA figures for May and June.

MSE - Faro May 150 pax: only one flight, so 83% LF. Call it 80% to allow for media people on first flight.

MSE - Faro June 1,275 pax: 10 flights, so 71% LF

MSE - BCN May 116 pax, so 64% LF.

MSE - BCN June 661 pax, so 37% LF.

Not quite the basket case that some people are alleging. Both routes now run to and from PIK, so overall yield is up, although, of course, BCN will not run next year, but will be replaced by Alicante and Palma.

Not bad for a fixed weekly programme that was announced as late as Feb 1st.

[Frankfurt_Cowboy]

Seriously, just how "Walter Mitty" is this thread becoming!!!!!!

[tilewood]

Seriously, just how "Walter Mitty" is this thread becoming!!!!!!


I guess there's not much else to do on warm summer nights in East Kent
apart from drinking Miller Lite, and marrying your first cousin!! A bit like Southend!!

Good on ya Manston, it won't be for the want of faithful followers! :}


Rooting for you really!

[catflaps]

You want to know how Walter Mitty things are in Thanet? For years just about everyone in a position of authority has proclaimed that the airport will regenerate the area. Many of them seem to have genuinely believed the guff they were spouting. In truth the airport has cost the taxpayer millions. The EUjet fiasco left thousands stranded abroad, many of whom had to pay through the nose to get home. What you have is a situation where everyone whose been elected says that the airport is a good thing, but in reality it has just been a financial millstone. I know this site is frequented by people who earn their living from aviation, but you can't justify keeping an airport going with public subsidies.

It isn't just the airport they do it with. They wanted to build an art gallery in the sea, off Margate. The unwashed masses protested. "It will get washed away", they said. The great and the good pressed ahead. They weren't going to listen to silly little people, even if those people were being asked to pay for the folly. Last year they erected a test structure in the sea off Margate. It was washed away within 24 hours. The project was shelved. Unfortunately, by the time they shelved it they'd already spent 7 million pounds of taxpayers' money.

I'm all for business which makes commercial sense and has a real prospect of giving the area a lift. But what we have here is a situation where the political elite is using taxpayers' money to promote schemes that aren't viable. Manston's commercial history is one of over-optimism and failures. Rising oil prices, interest rates and vigorous competition will ensure that this continues.

[Herne Bay]

It's just not true that tax payer money is keeping the Airport going.
The owners are, and investing in it.
It's not getting any public subsidies.
I think that Thanet is a very up and coming place, a property HOT SPOT.
I see investment going on all over the area, in new roads, shops and property , I am sure the Airport will do well in time.
Turner will do wonders for Margate.
I made an investment in Thanet and so are lots of others.:ok:
..
Times change and Manston and Thanet will also, let's talk about Planes ,news
not all this doom and gloom move on .

[catflaps]

"It's not getting any public subsidies."

Check your facts. Local Councils, SEEDA and KCC have all invested in the project to initiate direct flights from Manston to Virginia. Indeed, some former directors of the Wiggins group have been engaged as paid consultants to get this off the ground.

[deedave]

CAA provisional Manston July pax much lower than June.

1883 pax on 48 movements.

Guess this includes World airways, Seguro, and misc. charters.

[EGMH]

Infratil's July report for Manston-

July was KIA's strongest month since acquisition with good specialised passenger traffic and strong freight movements.

Passenger numbers for July totalled 6,417. The World Airways flight series to and from the US accounts for roughly two thirds of the total, adding to the Kent Escapes
program.

The new security measures apply equally at KIA, but have been easily applied given the low passenger throughput.

Total freight volume for July was 1,526,843kg - the airport's best performance since the seasonally high months
of October and November last year. The 13 scheduled MK flights had seasonally reduced loads (strong growing season
in the UK reduces import demand). DAS Air had 8 movements, four of which carried freight, with the others positioning for minor maintenance. EgyptAir Cargo has also now started using the Airport with single flights in the first two weeks of August.

[deedave]

Interesting.

Are the CAA wrong?

[Jes]

Are the CAA wrong?
Somebody's wrong.
The CAA figures are
Bergerac......7....charter
Grenoble......7....charter
Rome CIA..170....FR diversion!
Verona......359...IT
Faro.........477....if this is for 8 flights Gawd help us
BCN...........86....ditto
Zurich.......105....BA diversion!
Cairo.........146....??
USA.............0....completely wrong

[EGMH]

The Cairo pax was an Army B-757 troop charter.

Looks as if the CAA have not counted the World USA flights. Rough maths calculate the difference in figures would be the USA flights. I.e 2/3rd of the total missing.

:confused:

[deedave]

jes-

where do you get these detailed provisional stats ?

They are very useful.

I fear Faro and BCN may be fairly correct. As I said before, this would correspond with my brief eyeball obs.

[EUAir]

Lets turn MSE into houses! An average mid density housing estate has 5 or 6 houses per acre- think abou how many houses that means for Thanet and that should increase the likelyhood of the government investing in the infrastructure of the area- while also providing valuable construction jobs! But then the yocals are giving out about the proposed ongoing development at Westwood Cross, so cannot see MSE housing happening.
If MSE was a no goer as an airport the government would have rezoned it as a housing area- but MSE has the potential to opperate as a regional airport, along with being an airport that could service Pax flights from countries that don't really need to fly into the over priced landing areas of STN, LGW or more importantly LHR. It also has good Cargo facilities to service the South East, the time you waste on driving from Thanet, is about the same length of time it takes to get anything out of cargo at LHR.
As I said I hope Esperia learns from mistakes that have been made in the past, by me included, which dictates what needs to be done from MSE!
BTW no airlines have been approached with real intent by Infraril, that includes FR- who have looked at MSE as a serious business in a few years time- and I am sure when Infrtril feel that the time is right for pax growth it will happen.

[catflaps]

"If MSE was a no goer as an airport the government would have rezoned it as a housing area."

This is twaddle. The government doesn't own Manston. They did when it was an MoD base, and they had the option of designating it for alternative uses when the MoD sold it (in 1997). But the great and the good who live in the area around the airport decided that it would make a fabulous engine for economic regeneration of the area. Needless to say, they didn't bother checking whether this was commercially viable. When you are spending the taxpayers' dollar you don't need to bother with such piffling concerns. The government went along with it and you are now looking at the results of that decision.

Infratil can do what they like with the airport. After years of failure, nobody could argue that they have to keep it for aviation. They can simply close it down and apply for planning permission to do what they want. If the planning permission is refused they just do what all the other developers do; make a few changes and put it in again. In the end local Councils can't hold out against a determined developer because they can't afford the court costs involved.

[airhumberside]

BTW no airlines have been approached with real intent by Infraril, that includes FR- who have looked at MSE as a serious business in a few years time- and I am sure when Infrtril feel that the time is right for pax growth it will happen.
There appears to be some big problems with PIK management at the moment including a lack of willingness to work with airlines and tour operators to secure new services. Hope this doesn't spread to MSE

[XSBaggage]

Don't forget the appalling looking figures for BCN and FAO were on split load flights with PIK, set up with rather short notice. Next year I notice that PIK will have a based AEU aircraft operating the Seguro flights, leaving MSE able to have an entire aircraft dedicated to them. They should drop the BCN though - too much competition and 86 pax is truly woeful.
As I stated before a slow steady increase seems to be the way to go, forget all your Esperia massive expansion and your FR dreams (if I were an airport operator I would try and avoid them until another carrier was set up anyway) and concentrate on a small steady charter programme for Summer 2007. After all that is how PIK restarted in the 1990s.

XSB

[deedave]

"Leaving MSE able to have an entire aircraft dedicated to them"

Good idea.

A two seater Cessna should just about do it!

[XSBaggage]

In a 2 seater Cessna surely one of them has to fly it!!! Thats a bit harsh, even for MSE!

Point is, having a dedicated aircraft to operate 2 charter flights p/w for example would be more beneficial for MSE in that pax would rather fly direct to and from FAO or wherever rather than go via Scotland! And given that Kent Escapes / Seguro have more time to sell seats for a peak summer programme for S07 they have more chance of filling the flights, as opposed to them being the understudy in someone else's show. You have to admit the 2006 situation is purely an Infratil political move, using their influence with Seguro to give MSE some (albeit small) pax numbers.

XSB

[airhumberside]

They should drop the BCN though - too much competition and 86 pax is truly woeful.
It is being dropped for next year. FAO is continuing, with PMI and ALC new destinations

[EUAir]

Catflaps- It is called rezoning and is done in many fast growing economies all over the EU every year- case in point being Dublin where large areas of former 'farm' land, also local playing fields, parks etc etc. are being rezoned by the government to allow housing developments! Similiar things are being done in the Uk, especially now with the fast growth of the population, especially in London which will increase dramatically in terms of Eastern European construction workers coming up to 2012. It is not twaddle and just because the government doesn't own the land does not mean that they cannot rezone it for housing!! In fact Thanet is a good case for land rezoning with its road and rail links to London, good but not perfect, and also its close distance to ferry terminals etc! We are talking about two different governments- local and national! This country is filled with Governments of sorts- Local Councils, Parish councils etc etc. This can be made a national issue when it comes to rezoning land not just a local one!
Of course I am sure those of you in MAG would have a problem with that also :)
MSE does have the possibility to be used as an airport, if done correctly as I always state.
Infratril will develop MSE but there is no rush at the moment!

[deedave]

I can't find any reference to rezoning in England on the web.

Scotland yes, USA yes.

The only English information I have found relates to water supplies.

Please can you direct me to the correct site?

[catflaps]

Hi EUAir. I'd be delighted to see the information about rezoning that deedave has asked you to post. Whilst you're at it, perhaps you could update us with the current status of the radar; you know, the one that wasn't working in May because of a thunderstorm. Has it been up and running since then?

[Dont tell um pike]

CatFlaps

Which part of the new radar Installation are you interested in , particularly ?

DTUP

[chevvron]

How about starting with the bit that shows controllers where the planes are and then working backwards.

[Dont tell um pike]

Chevvron

"Planes" ? you mean you can have more than one at a time ? :eek:

DTUP

[airac]

Is this thread an example of ," If we talk about it enough on here then it will happen" or is this like the Southend thread?:zzz:

[function]

Hi EUAir. I'd be delighted to see the information about rezoning that deedave has asked you to post. Whilst you're at it, perhaps you could update us with the current status of the radar; you know, the one that wasn't working in May because of a thunderstorm. Has it been up and running since then?


As it says on the NOTAM, RADAR U/S. and it was a lightning strike that
did the damage.

[tilewood]

function

Do you honestly mean that there has been no radar at EGMH since
May?!!

[Jimbo_P]

Still no Radar at Manston, although I was amused to hear over the radio the other day:
"I understand from your ATIS that the Radar is unservicable, so could I have a Radar information service instead?"

We do now have runway edge and taxiway lights, though. Which is nice...:ugh:

[EUAir]

Catflaps- I cannot post about a radar that I know nothing about as I do not work at MSE, which I have stated previously!! Its not stoping aircraft from landing though I notice! I have worked with a number of different airports over my time and there is always something or another that is not operating efficently!
On the point of rezoning- I realise that my previous post may look like I was pointing that London had rezoning done- I apologise it was badly written, I did point out that rezoning had been done in the UK, What I was trying to point out about London was that there is exceptional population growth, and as DeeDave pointed out in Scotland, so if it is being done in the UK why can't it be done in England?, But forgive me if I am wrong hadn't Prescott alllowed former Green Field sites in the Uk be built on?!! But rezoning is common place in Ireland in the counties of Meath, Kildare and Wicklow especially.

[deedave]

IMHO when the time comes for MSE to close, I don't reckon Wesminster will be involved with new planning issues - I think it will be handled locally.

Radar -

Er - I know this probably sound thick to you aviation types, but I thought the whole purpose of ATC was to look at the radar and then tell the pilots where to fly.

I would genuinely like to know how ATC functions without radar.

Anybody??

[Jimbo_P]

Pilots fly towards the NDB, and then use the ILS. If not, they can always use the old fashioned (god forbid...) visual method!!

In terms of GA, all local flights are booked out with ATC beforehand, including information as to the area they will be flying, and up to what level. A flight information service is then provided to all aircraft flying in that vicinity, telling them to keep their eyes open!
:eek:

[Barnaby the Bear]

Er - I know this probably sound thick to you aviation types, but I thought the whole purpose of ATC was to look at the radar and then tell the pilots where to fly.

I would genuinely like to know how ATC functions without radar.

Its called Approach Procedural Control. The controller using separation standards based on time, distance, vertical separation and Nav aids, and in some cases deemed separations, Separate the aircraft.

NATS (apart from Aberdeen I believe) no longer use this as they have the staff and radar reliability (i.e mulitiple feeds to support)

You will find quite a few non-NATS airfields still using it Lydd, Manston, St Mary's, Cranfield, Oxford and Shoreham to name a few . Places such as Southend and Bournemouth and Blackpool will use it a night when Radar is not available.

Its considered a 'Black art' as less an less controllers rated to use it with equipment reliability improving.

[deedave]

A couple of years ago, there were reports in our local rag that the Guild of ATC's had described the risk of mid-air collision at Manston as "unacceptably high".

The worrying thing is, this was when the radar WAS working.

Bl**dy Hell!!!

[Barnaby the Bear]

A local rag blowing things out of proportion.......Never. As was said before, there has been no RADAR possibly since May (but lets face it its not been on properly for longer than that). Your local rag wrote 2 years ago of high risk of mid air. How many have there been??? Based also on the fairly high number of 'Puddle Jumpers' that cross that airspace en-route to LFAT or EBBR I think that proves a point.

Besides, if you have ever tried to fly close to MH when they have a movement :} , they normally clear the skies within a 20 mile radius!!!!!!!! :ugh:

[blazing_air]

function
Do you honestly mean that there has been no radar at EGMH since
May?!!

Contractors are in at the moment, digging trenches for new ducting and the laying of around 16km on new cabling for new radar and taxiway lighting.;)

[deedave]

Barnaby-

Local rags are indeed deeply silly.

However, on this occasion I believe it was simply a direct quote from the Guild of ATC.

[Barnaby the Bear]

Sorry, I did mean to acknowledge the fact it was a quote from the Guild of ATC, but I think you get my point anyway. :}

[Herne Bay]

The airport owner are spending money investing in the airports infrastructure.(I thing this is over 1m)
I notice that in addition to the MK flights
DAS now load freight at Manston, Eygpt Air also fly in freight. With the festive season not far away we should see a lot more freight movements.
A Vega Airlines An was on a stand Tue ( Bulgarian cargo charter aviation company).
What the Nomads aircraft ?

[blazing_air]

Herne Bay

Mk 3 times a week
Egypt 2 times a week
Das ad hoc at the moment, but hopefuly once a day
Nomads is an ad hoc charter.

All are talking about increasing flights in the autumn.

[Manston Airport]

It's just not true that tax payer money is keeping the Airport going.
The owners are, and investing in it.
It's not getting any public subsidies.
I think that Thanet is a very up and coming place, a property HOT SPOT.
I see investment going on all over the area, in new roads, shops and property , I am sure the Airport will do well in time.
Turner will do wonders for Margate.
I made an investment in Thanet and so are lots of others.:ok:
..
Times change and Manston and Thanet will also, let's talk about Planes ,news
not all this doom and gloom move on .


Well Said :D

James

[deedave]

Hi James-

Saw your post on another board where you told them Esperia could get their coaches from MSE to London in 55 mins.

Wow!

I would love to see the vehicle which can accomplish such a feat.

[Jes]

The free coach service is no longer mentioned on the website.

Esperia are meeting MSE management next week to discuss their flight programme. From what I've been told I'd say it's very interesting, but not quite what we expected.

[Herne Bay]

New on Esperia web site
(Fly with Esperia, a low cost carrier to all U.K and E.U flights from £10. From 1st December 2006, daily flights with a fleet of three airplanes MD83, to a variety of destinations including Strasbourg, Dublin, Amsterdam, Berlin, Athens, Leeds, Blackpool, Rome, Milan, Cologne, Geneva, Naples, Barcelona, Thessaloniki, Prague, Vilnius, Riga, Budapest.
Esperia provides charter flight services inside the European Union and to Eastern European countries. You can make reservations and book tickets online, from the departure airport ticket desk or through your local travel agency, after 10.10.2006.)

No coach service from London Bridge
But also an Esperia TV channel on Hot Bird which will promote the Airline ?.

[Jes]

Snarfel posted this a few weeks back

"It seems that MK has been granted a UK AOC and that it could so resume flights to North America, after US authorities had lifted flights for Ghana-registered aircraft following the MK Halifax crash of October 2004. This should be a perfect opportunity for MK to cut back on flights to Ostend and to concentrate on Manston. At present 25 percent of MK movements within Europe are shorter than 200 miles (Manston-Ostend, 65 miles and Ostend-Luxemburg, 180 miles). This is an utmost waste of time and money. Recently MK has signed a Memorandum of Understanding with the Ostend authority, intending to intensify substantially as a ‘preferential partner’ its freight activities, however promising to schedule all operations during day time. Such intentions could also be held in Manston, provided MK be treated as a preferential partner. In the view of Manston in a pressing need for expansion, efforts to get much more MK flights might result in its survival, which at present doesn’t seem so evident."

MK have been running 4 flights a week recently, but this week (Sun-Sat) it will be 5 after today's lands. Given that loads are down because of the English growing season, can anyone throw any light on this increased activity?

[Jes]

8th September
New on Esperia web site
(Fly with Esperia, a low cost carrier to all U.K and E.U flights from £10. From 1st December 2006, daily flights with a fleet of three airplanes MD83, to a variety of destinations including Strasbourg, Dublin, Amsterdam, Berlin, Athens, Leeds, Blackpool, Rome, Milan, Cologne, Geneva, Naples, Barcelona, Thessaloniki, Prague, Vilnius, Riga, Budapest.
Esperia provides charter flight services inside the European Union and to Eastern European countries. You can make reservations and book tickets online, from the departure airport ticket desk or through your local travel agency, after 10.10.2006.)
No coach service from London Bridge
But also an Esperia TV channel on Hot Bird which will promote the Airline ?.
11th September
"a variety of destinations including Leeds, Athens, Budapest, Cologne, Thessaloniki, Toulouse, Amsterdam, Manston Kent, Berlin, Rome, Milan, Geneva, Barcelona, Prague, Riga."
So Strasbourg, Dublin, Blackpool, Naples and Vilnius have all disappeared in 3 days, and Toulouse has been added. I'd love to be a fly on the wall at today's meeting.

[Rupert369]

I'm afraid there is just no way that I can see Esperia working out - their website looks like it was designed for a school project and is written in pigeon English.
If they ever did get off the ground they would be flying to 16 destinations with 3 ageing aircraft, which would leave them in a fairly precarious situation if any tech issues were to arise. All of these factors (apart from the website issues) ring a bell with me - the last thing Manston needs is another EUJet.

[bacardi walla]

What MSE needs is NOW Airlines being ressurected. People said the NOW business plan wouldn't work. I think maybe they are being proved wrong. NOW were going to fly low cost to the Canaries. Who has just announced low cost to the Canaries :confused:

I was going to be part of the NOW team from the start, and it's a shame the plug was pulled.....

[Manston Airport]

bacardi walla


Was NOW ment to be flying from Luton? And is there any news off Ryanair flying from MSE?

james

[Herne Bay]

New on the web site esperia site
Cologne is the HUB !

Esperia, is a UK company, based in Manston Kent , CT125BP, UK. Fly with Esperia, from Cologne, to a variety of destinations, including: Manston Kent,
Athens, Budapest, Cologne, Thessaloniki, Toulouse, Amsterdam, Berlin, Rome, Milan,
Geneva, Barcelona, Prague, Riga.
Esperia provides charter flight services inside the European Union and to Eastern
European countries.
Things change day by day.
An Easyjet airbus was doing touch and go's for most of thusday, nice to see
..
I noticed the name Esperia on the old Eujet hut at Manston last Friday, but car park empty.
The cargo traffic seems to be picking up, I noticed a DAS being loaded with cargo and later in the week two planes being unloaded at the same time an Egypt Air and a MK 747.

[bacardi walla]

bacardi walla
Was NOW ment to be flying from Luton? And is there any news off Ryanair flying from MSE?
james

Yes, Luton was the HQ for NOW but like I said, the plug was pulled just before they got going.

I'm not sure MSE has the ability to make any based airline a success. The number of punters just isn't there :confused:

Maybe W patterns through MSE would work though !

[Manston Airport]

Yes, Luton was the HQ for NOW but like I said, the plug was pulled just before they got going.

I'm not sure MSE has the ability to make any based airline a success. The number of punters just isn't there :confused:

Maybe W patterns through MSE would work though !


Whats W patterns? Manston does have the punters its just the routes you have to do homework if you wanna base an airline there.When EUjet went it had over 5500 people stuck aborad and it was coming up to its busiest time

RIP EUjet :{ :D

James

[Cyrano]

What MSE needs is NOW Airlines being ressurected. People said the NOW business plan wouldn't work. I think maybe they are being proved wrong.
BW: as I recall, there were two aspects of the NOW business plan which elicited most scepticism. One was the decision to set up at LTN in direct competition to EZY. OK, so MSE doesn't have this competition. Whether it has the catchment area is another question. But the second questionable aspect of the NOW plan was to have flat fares, ie every seat on every flight from LTN to point X would cost the same. This flew completely in the face of every successful LCC's revenue management strategy, and was a recipe for disaster (the only would-be LCC that had a flat fares policy - Helvetic - gave it up a year or two back).

I think the idea of an LCC flying to the Canaries is a good one, but I think the LTN base and flat fares were a more fundamental part of NOW's business plan than the Canaries route was, so the fact that someone else is thinking of a Canaries route is hardly an endorsement of NOW's overall business plan.

[deedave]

No James,

Manston does not have the punters, otherwise EUjet would still be running, and Seguro would have full aircraft, and there would be more than 9 cars in the car park.

Even by giving away tens of thousands of seats, Eujet only achieved average 37% loading.

[Andy_S]

Whats W patterns? Manston does have the punters its just the routes you have to do homework if you wanna base an airline there.When EUjet went it had over 5500 people stuck aborad and it was coming up to its busiest time

James,

I can't help but smile when I read your confident statements about how to run an airline alongside your query about what a 'W' pattern is.........

You seem to have this touching belief that EUjet was actually a big success. I think you need to ask yourself:

- Why it went out of business?
- Why no one purchased it as a going concern?
- Why no one else has come in to take over EUjet's routes?

BTW - please spare me the MAG comments. I'm not. I actually think MSE can be succesful, but like Bacardi Walla I'm sceptical as to whether a based airline could ever be viable.

[catflaps]

Q "Why it went out of business?"

A EUjet was losing money hand over fist. Manston Airport was losing money hand over fist. The parent company (Planestation), which owned both of them didn't have any money and was in hock to the banks. The bank pulled the plug. Period.

Q "Why no one purchased it as a going concern?"

A I thought Infratil HAD purchased the airport as a going concern. They bought it from the administrator for a reported £17million. There were other (non-airport) bids for the site but I was told that Infratil bid the most.

Q "Why no one else has come in to take over EUjet's routes?"

A See answer to question 1.

[tilewood]

Whats W patterns? Manston does have the punters its just the routes you have to do homework if you wanna base an airline there.When EUjet went it had over 5500 people stuck aborad and it was coming up to its busiest time

RIP EUjet :{ :D

James

James

It's great to be enthused about your local airport, and so you should be
at 19. But unfortunately your enthusiasm is based on emotion and not fact, and without wishing to rain on your parade, as has been said time without number Manston has severe structural and catchment area limitations.

Just ask yourself why airlines are not fighting to operate scheduled
services, where are Ryanair, Easyjet, and Flybe?

They are not there because it does not make commercial sense for them to be there. One day maybe, when there are roads, railways, and large centres of population. But currently Manston is not a high frequency short haul loco airport.


Be enthusiastic, but temper it with a degree of realism otherwise you are going to be very disappointed.

[Iainh]

Why does everyone insist that Manston does not have the catchment area? EUjet were on target to carry 400,000 passengers in their first year of operation. Southampton Airport handled 600,000 pax in their second year in the new terminal with incidentally 5 airlines operating!

EUjet made a wrong desision with their choice of aircraft, 108 seats were too difficult to fill but again all very easy with hindsight.

Manston was not purchased as a going concern because the airport was effectively closed due to the insurance not being paid, therfore not operating therefore not a very "going concern"

Unless one of you are personally involved with route development for Infratil how do you know what discussions are going on between Infratil and airlines. As I posted previously Infratils management stated that before they allowed a schedule operator to use the airport they wanted to ensure that the strucure and facilities were actually capable of handling both the aircraft and the passengers.

I dont want to cry over spilt milk but Planestation raised just under £30M which it was said would keep the operation going for 2 years at least. Why then within 2 months was the money gone? Answer, to fund all of the other hairbrained schemes that they were involved in. Infratil are not stupid and whilst Manston will not be another Stansted it should be a viable regional airport.

[daz211]

Just ask yourself why airlines are not fighting to operate scheduled services, where are Ryanair, Easyjet, and Flybe?

Dont speak to soon, you never know whats around the corner!:rolleyes:

[Iainh]

Daz

Do you know whats around the corner??

[daz211]

Lets put it this way, It would not suprise me in 2007 for a loco announcement, might not be a huge announcement but a start.
I have it on good athority that a loco is mulling over the idea.
but it all depend on other options falling through, thats all I can say.

[Manston Airport]

Manston is the same as Bournemouth Airport with no big roads ,no rail link or bus service. Manston can do LCC to the right places,I flew with EUjet 10 times some was to spain and faro which where 80% full all the flights I went on none where below 30%

Just ask yourself why airlines are not fighting to operate scheduled services, where are Ryanair, Easyjet, and Flybe?


Easyjet are happy at LGW,Flybe dont want a base in the SE or starting routes from the SE and know one knows if Ryanair are going to fly from MSE there was the saying that FR would move there routes from LGW to MSE who knows lets wait and see :ok: :D

James

[tilewood]

Just ask yourself why airlines are not fighting to operate scheduled services, where are Ryanair, Easyjet, and Flybe? Dont speak to soon, you never know whats around the corner!:rolleyes:


"Don't speak too soon!" How many years do you want?!! :hmm:

[Twitcher]

Do you know how hard it is for people 'in the know' to keep schtum:uhoh:
Next season will be very interesting:ooh:

I'll sit back and wait for Dave 'doom and gloom' D, Catflaps and co. to mock me now. :ugh:

Oh, I'm compiling a list of the the 'it'll never happen' and 'not in a million years' style posts to quote back to you all after next years news :)

[daz211]

I understand every word you are saying mate :ok:

[Jimbo_P]

I think MSE has potential, it just needs the right company to come in, armed with realistic expectations.

It's never going to rival Stansted/Luton overnight, but with the effort that's going in to the surrounding areas (Pfizer's expansion; Ramsgate's rejuvenation, etc) who knows what the future may hold.

I'd have to agree with the many postings about the transport links, over two hours to London by rail isn't good enough.

I for one hold optimism that the A319 in the circuit last Thursday becomes a regular sight in the not-too-distant future.

[Manston Airport]

Jimbo_P

I was told that EZY were quite happy with the service provided for last week's training:ok: hope they return

James

[Iainh]

How much wishfull thinking and how much fact?!!

Everyone in Thanet saw the EZY tail and are now talking about an announcement!!

[Iainh]

I'd have to agree with the many postings about the transport links, over two hours to London by rail isn't good enough

Why do you all surmise that everyone wants to go go to LONDON????
It's a toilet!!!!

[Herne Bay]

A promotion company is looking for girls at the Airport for Sat and Sun 30th 1st Oct
for some big promotion.
Anyone know what for ?

[tilewood]

Herne Bay

The construction of the new housing estate?!! :p

[Iainh]

Open day to meet Cosmos and Seguero

[Herne Bay]

There are plans to build over 1000 new home neer the new Shopping Complex at Westwood a few miles away.
The Thanet plan shows only an Airport at Manston with a rail link by 2012

[deedave]

I think the promotion is Seguro AKA Kent escapes.

This is the second time they have done this.

As most of us know, selling pax tickets at MSE is very difficult (see CAA website), and Seguro is no exception, so they are running "open days" to try and get some "bums on seats".

I wonder why it is "girls" they are looking for?

Strippers perhaps?

[deedave]

Incidentally.......

Fact check.

1) EZY, BA, Virgin, and many others have been using MSE for training bumps on an occasional basis for many years now.

It's nothing new.

2) We already have a loco announcement,(Esperia), albeit non-based.

3) The bulk of EUjet pax were on promo or freebies. They went bust because all loco relies on the last minute full price tickets to stay afloat.
Unfortunately, when my fellow Thanetians are asked to pay full price for travel, they don't wanna know. That's why Seguro are unable to fill a plane, even though they only run once a week.

4) Manston was Planestation's biggest loss maker, not other "hair-brained schemes". Compared to Manston, activities such as Lahr, Liverpool Festival Gardens, and EUjet at SNN could be regarded as runaway successes.
More details available on ADVFN for anyone who's interested.

[Jimbo_P]

I'd have to agree with the many postings about the transport links, over two hours to London by rail isn't good enough

Why do you all surmise that everyone wants to go go to LONDON????
It's a toilet!!!!

As opposed to the tourism haven that is Thanet??? :p

[Manston Airport]

There are plans to build over 1000 new home neer the new Shopping Complex at Westwood a few miles away.
The Thanet plan shows only an Airport at Manston with a rail link by 2012


My Dad works at Westwood cross he manager off Argos :D

James

[tilewood]

I'd have to agree with the many postings about the transport links, over two hours to London by rail isn't good enough
Why do you all surmise that everyone wants to go go to LONDON????
It's a toilet!!!!


It's strange that Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted, Luton,
London City and Southend, all serve that 'toilet,' and all with good
surface access. Obviously several million people want to fly to and from there every year.

Somehow I don't think your colourful argument would hold much sway
in airline boardrooms!!

[Rupert369]

2) We already have a loco announcement,(Esperia), albeit non-based.

The last thing we want is another loco who will have to spend thousands establishing themselves from scratch, prove unreliable with their small, overstretched fleet, last 12 months (at a push) and then once again leave the people of Thanet with the feeling that Manston cannot work.
This Esperia loco venture is simply not good for Manston. Easyjet / Ryanair / Flybe / Air Berlin / Sky Europe etc. on the other hand probably could run succesful services from the airport, starting off with one destination and building up from there. That is what I will be hoping for, and I hope also for the reputation and future of the airport tha Esperia stays firmly on the ground.

[Manston Airport]

Rupert369

Thank you Rupert :D Those Airlines could get Manston going or Cosmos does more charter routes from Manston ,EUjet was just in Beginners hands :ok:

James

[Iainh]

Apologies to all, just got carried away with the toilet comment.

I do still feel that not everyone wants or needs to go to London. A great deal of the EUjet passengers were from Kent and were not inbound visitors from from abroad hell bent on getting to London.

I agree that the infrastructure is not yet in place but there is something happening with road improvements in the near future.

I dont think Esperia will happen in December!!!

Iain

[tilewood]

Thank you Rupert :D Those Airlines could get Manston going or Cosmos does more charter routes from Manston ,EUjet was just in Beginners hands :ok:

James


James you are so unpredictable! Just a few posts back you were bemoaning
the fact that EUJet had 5500 pax stranded abroad, and it was coming up
to it's busy time, and....... and !!! It was never given a
chance.......and now you say it 'was just in Beginner's hands!'

Now where do you stand?!!" ;)

[Manston Airport]

tilewood

:ugh: It was coming up to its busy time and they did have 5500 stranded abroad I had a flight booked to go to Alicante the following week I am still with EUjet it could off worked all I was saying it was in Beginner's hands!' (Crapy hands more like):* any ideas on how the Virginia Holidays are going?

James

[EUAir]

James,

Beginners Hands??? Amazing mate, but I will defo differ on that. PJ might not have the greatest rep in the business but he certainly has shed loads of money from this business and plenty of experience, he would do at 64 years of age and having worked in this business all his life. EUjet were my third airline, and not my first start up, and I have had one more airline since then and now 'retired', but still receiving offers. Everybody I knew in the management structure of EUjet has so much experience in the business it was criminal that we failed!! Two of the Revenue Managers for EUjet are now Heads of Revenue at other airlines, a number of the Operations side of the business are all Heads Of Operation at other carriers, One former EUjet employes is Deputy Chief Executive of a profit making LCC, I can go on! Experience and drive and knowledge was not the issue at EUjet, it was overcompensating for a poor Planestation Management, from an unproven airport, with an airline whose overheads and aircraft choice were already set out way before a scheduled service started! and it had nothing to do with being beginners- if he want to look at beginners look at Esperia, but again I do wish them beginners luck!

[Manston Airport]

EUAir

Thats what I mean from Beginners Hands was Planestation Management, not PJ

James

[Iainh]

EUAir

Did you use another name prior to this?

Iain

[deedave]

Steady on now chaps!

Manston Fan Club members need to sing from the same hymn sheet!

You are flying dangerously close to saying "EUjet was OK and did well at SNN. The management team are all doing well elsewhere. The only problem is Manston's poor location".

Incidentally, only 2 cars in passenger car park now. Can this poor performance be blamed on Planestation also?
Methinks not.
I wouldn't mind betting Seguro are doing OK at PIK, and it's only the Manston leg thats a no-go.

[deedave]

Incidentally.......

I personally don't think it matters too much whether there is another failed loco at MSE.

What will really make a difference is a successful start at LYX.

Either way Manston ends up with egg on it's face.

[EUAir]

I had one or two names before this but I always forget my log ons!

[Herne Bay]

(Kent International Airport is hosting a holiday show at the end of this month to promote the services which will operate in 2007.
The event, which is open to all, takes place on Saturday September 30 and Sunday October 1 from 11am until 4pm on both days.
An estimated 3,000 people packed into the terminal during a sunny Sunday afternoon in May – the last time Kent International hosted a holiday show.
Organisers are hoping to surpass that total this time round as the event is taking place over two days.
As well as being a fantastic day out, the show will be useful for anyone with questions about the flight-only and package holiday services available next year.
Representatives from both Kent Escapes and Cosmos Holidays will be on hand to offer advice and information.
There is no admittance fee and free parking will be provided. What’s more, there are special offers and giveaways if you book up on the day and, if you’re lucky, you could win a holiday and other great prizes.
To keep the children amused there will be a magician, balloons, face painting and lollies, while a DJ will provide the soundtrack. Entertainment is provided throughout the day and light refreshments will be made available too.
Wendy Pollock, Sales Manager for Seguro Holidays, said: “We were involved in a similar event at Kent International back in May and it was a fantastic success. We are looking forward to seeing the people of Kent again.
“It’s a great opportunity for them to find out about the great choice of holidays we are offering in 2007 and our highly experienced sales staff will answer any travel queries and take reservations on the day.”
Andy Washington, Sales Director for Cosmos Holidays, commented: “Since the launch of our Virginia brochure featuring direct flights from Kent International, we've had a great deal of interest from people living in the Kent area.
“The holiday show will give local residents a great opportunity to pick up a brochure and hear more about the fantastic range of attractions and events happening in the Virginia area next year - all easily accessible from their local airport.”
Phill Vann, General Manager of Kent International Airport, added: “The last holiday show was a huge success and demonstrated the level of interest this airport generates in the community.
“We would urge all the people who made it down last time to come again, and to those who didn’t – come and see what we are all about, and find out about the great services on offer in 2007.”
Kent Escapes, which is part of the Seguro Travel Group, will operate flights to Faro in the popular Portugese Algarve region after a successful first season this year.
For 2007, they have added Spanish destinations Palma (Majorca) and Alicante (Benidorm) to their schedule, which will run from May until October.
With a strong reputation among holidaymakers and travel agents alike, Seguro Holidays currently fly thousands of sun seekers out of Glasgow Prestwick Airport every year, making it the airport’s largest tour operator with a high volume of repeat customers.
The company offers a wide range of 7 and 14 day packages, with accommodation in the two star to five star range)
Things are not as bad as some say, new destns for passenger flights and a lot more freight traffic.
things are on the up.:D

[deedave]

With DAS (temporary?) and Egypt air, freight landings are up a bit compared to 2 months ago, but nowhere near the double daily that MK were doing in 2003.

I make no claims to know about freight, but the impression I get over the past eight years is that operators use Manston for a bit, and then they go elsewhere.

MK have been a bit more consistent.

I suppose if I were a freight operator I would look at it in pretty much the same way as a pax flight -

Why fly for six hours, only to have to truck the cargo for another six, when I could use a nearer airport and cut my road time?

Therefore, if my tomatoes are heading for East Kent, Manston makes sense, but for anywhere else there are better airports.

And East Kent is not a densely populated region.

Overall LHR and LGW would seem to make more sense.

[EGMH]

Infratil's August KIA-M report.
At Kent International Airport, freight has continued to grow with August being a record month with 1,959,082 kg going through the airport. A number of carriers are now regular users of KIA and this provides a good signal that both the facility and the quality of service are competitive.

[Barnaby the Bear]

Sounds promising. Freight doe's seem the best way forward for somewhere like Manston. Good to see some positive. . . Any news on Radar coming back?
:}

[Iainh]

P
Would In the air and on the ground be on the right tracks??
I

[blazing_air]

With DAS (temporary?) and Egypt air, freight landings are up a bit compared to 2 months ago, but nowhere near the double daily that MK were doing in 2003.

I make no claims to know about freight, but the impression I get over the past eight years is that operators use Manston for a bit, and then they go elsewhere.

MK have been a bit more consistent.

I suppose if I were a freight operator I would look at it in pretty much the same way as a pax flight -

Why fly for six hours, only to have to truck the cargo for another six, when I could use a nearer airport and cut my road time?

Therefore, if my tomatoes are heading for East Kent, Manston makes sense, but for anywhere else there are better airports.

And East Kent is not a densely populated region.

Overall LHR and LGW would seem to make more sense.


Why indeed?
Is it because that when freight operators use large passenger airports, they have to sit and wait, sometimes for hours on end before anyone go's near their aircraft to unload it?
Is it because when they use mse they can get a better service, faster turn-around and their cargo on the road within hours of landing?
Is that why Egypt Air have started to use mse over Stansted, because they do actually get a better service and faster turn-around?
.........well their cargo manager seems to think, this is why mse makes sense and lgw and lhr don't.
Point made, off my soap box now.;)

[blazing_air]

Sounds promising. Freight doe's seem the best way forward for somewhere like Manston. Good to see some positive. . . Any news on Radar coming back?
:}

December was the last i heard...

[Dont tell um pike]

December was the last i heard...

Dear Santa..............................................:rolleyes :

[ChrisGr31]

Firstly I'll say that I am not a pilot and not in an aviation job. Have an interest in Manston purely from having driven past it a fair few times.

Do other European countries have low-cost carriers like us? Equally do they have passengers demanding to go to London? After all some of the low cost carriers flying out of the UK dump you at an airport which is miles away from the place you actually thought you were going to.

So surely all that needs to be done is to persuade another countries low cost carrier that Manston is in fact London, and they'll fly lots of people in! Whilst thats arranged I'll go and set up a taxi service from Manston to London!

[Andy_S]

So surely all that needs to be done is to persuade another countries low cost carrier that Manston is in fact London, and they'll fly lots of people in! Whilst thats arranged I'll go and set up a taxi service from Manston to London!

It's been tried already. Didn't work!!

[catflaps]

Sounds suspiciously like Esperia's marketing strategy to me. A short coach journey into London etc. etc.

[deedave]

Infratil's August KIA-M report.


I am convinced there is a disease called "Manstonitis"......


Any senior management who works there catches it, and loses the ability to tell the truth within 6 months.

August was not a "record" month for freight tonnage, as anybody who looks back over the CAA records will tell you.

Manston freight is way past its peak, and a little under 2000 metric tonnes is hardly impressive after eight f***ing years.


I also notice their "report" makes no mention of the lousy pax figures.

[deedave]

Incidentally.......

I am willing to believe there are delays offloading cargo at major airports, although I suspect it is often overstated, as are LHR passenger delays.

However...


I am constrained to point out that the big airports have cargo managers who will get sacked if they lose business to places like MSE.

LHR, LGW, and STN are superbly located airports, and all they have to do to cure delays is hire a few more staff and fork lifts.

Manston, on the other hand, can do nothing to cure it's edge-of-the-world location.

[Manston Airport]

Dear Santa..............................................:rolleyes :


Saying off Santa is there flights to lapland this year?
BTW Dave CAA are not always right:ok: And Dave Im going to call you Victor as you always say Manston is a bad airport and can never work etc which is complete b*llocks

James

[undiemole]

The major factor operating cargo flights into major airports like Lhr/Lgw is the high Landing/handling fees, so therefore much better buisness sense to utilise smaller regional airports such as East Midlands.

Manston is ok for inbound cargo loads, but runway too short for decent outbound revenue loads, so major operators will steer clear.

:rolleyes:

[Herne Bay]

quote
(Manston is ok for inbound cargo loads, but runway too short for decent outbound revenue loads, so major operators will steer clear.)
What length should a runway be for decent load ?

[deedave]

Undiemole-

East Midlands - yes - superb location and huge population centres.

But Manston??????



James -

As a veteran of bulletin boards I have noticed there is a certain class of member who, in the absence of facts or a decent hypothesis to back up their position, resorts to personal attacks.

You would appear to be such a person.


Disappointing.

[Herne Bay]

quote ddave

James -

As a veteran of bulletin boards I have noticed there is a certain class of member who, in the absence of facts or a decent hypothesis to back up their position, resorts to personal attacks.

You would appear to be such a person.


Disappointing.
DDAVE
I find some of the words you use pretty bad such as words starting with F and S
this is not the sort of venue for words like.
I joined this thinking I could read info about what going on at airports ect. which
is not the case, as you and others just want the airport closed.
maybe it will or maybe not, but perhaps you should find some other venue to fight your cause, and let see posting about Airports and goings on at Manston.

[deedave]

Herne Bay-

It is fairly common practice on pprune to allude to bad language to emphasise a point, without actually using it.

Similar techniques are used in most daily papers.

I am sure that open swearing would not be allowed on pprune, and therefore people use asterisks, myself included.

I am afraid this is the everyday language of many people, and is Anglo Saxon in origin.
If you find "asterisk swearing" offensive, you must be a very sensitive soul indeed!!



Similarly, if you join a forum about a particular airport, you will find arguments on both sides, and they may not always be to your liking.

I can assure you that I personally will not stand by and allow the proliferation of innacuracies or blatant lies regarding Manston - the people of Thanet have had too much of that.

Perhaps you should form a new thread and call it-

"People saying lovely things about MSE"!!!


(incidentally, I don't recall using a rude word beginning with "s")

PS why didn't you tell James off for his "b" word?

[Dont tell um pike]

ooh-somebodies tired :zzz:

[blazing_air]

deedave
You need to calm down and let this thread return to discussion about the airport, whether for or against, as herne bay say's there is no need to start abusing other ppruners.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and should be free to voice it without being, shouted down by you.
Manston has it's supporters and haters and i believe you are the later.
But try to stick to the facts and not your own twisted view of them.
You mention the last 8 years, but in truth, Manston was actually taken over in September 1999, which by my crude maths, makes it 7 years.
Infratil (Infratil Airports Europe) have only been owners of the airport for just over a year and can't be blamed for what has happened in the past.
There are lots of reasons why it has failed before, which has been raked up time and time again through this forum.
Manston does have a future as a regional airport in the south east and that's not just my opinion, why else would a mulit million pound company buy it, run it and invest in it's future?
They are not the amatures of the past but a company with a proven track record in aviation globally.
I'm sure you will come back at me with some derisery comment, but i really don't care as fortunatley you don't control my life or the future business at Manston.
:D

[Evileyes]

To clarify forum policy, "asterisk swearing" is at best highly frowned upon. That sort of language is inappropriate in professional interaction.

The mods probably won't pull a poster up for a one-off but anyone who cannot seem to communicate without using them will find themselves unable to access the forum.

Bottom line, if you need to spill off some anger before posting go stand outside your home shouting obscenities, with asterisks if you prefer. ;)

Cheers,
The Mods

[deedave]

Mods-

Thank you for clarifying this.



blazing_air-

I have never "shouted down" other members of this board, nor have I made personal attacks.

My comments are based on facts, or viable hypotheses.


By contrast, anyone who cares to look back over this board will see that yourself, EUair and James have insulted me personally.

As it happens, I can handle any number of personal insults, but I draw attention to them because they often seem to be the last resort of the increasingly desperate "Manston fan club" when they have run out of facts to support the belief that this airport is viable.

[deedave]

PS The MOD handed the airport over to Wiggins 7 years and 7 months ago.

[Jes]

deedave's first posting on pp was on 24th July. Since then he has made 37, all on Manston - nothing else: a single issue sort of person!

He lost money on Wiggins. OK, but isn't it time to move on?

This is an aviation rumour board, not a knock your local airport one.

A few facts:

Faro flight yesterday disgorged 100+ at Manston. Three Seguro routes will run next year and are selling now.

Freight is running at 20,000 tons p.a. on a three monthly moving average

Major works are in progress to upgrade taxiway lighting and the radar

Cosmos is putting a major effort into the Norfolk flights

The airport is unwilling to take on some traffic before the infrastructure is improved: this is a 3-4 year turn-round, so there are 2-3 years left to get it making a profit

DAS has renovated the old MJSC hangar, and is awaiting CAA approval: a lot of investment there for a temporary move! All of the stores are moving down from Gatwick. Many of their flights now carry cargo, in and out. With 7 aircraft they were handling 60,000 tons a year at Gatwick. There will obviously be quite a bit of traffic for Manston with the four remaining aircraft.

Rumours

2 more freight carriers by Christmas

2 airlines to run scheduled flights next year

Esperia still unclear

New tower to be built next year

Extra hangar for TG

[deedave]

Frankly Jes, your reply is very welcome.

Makes a change to get some proper, detailed facts from the "fan club"


As I said before, I know nothing about freight and I look forward to checking out your information.

As for pax, based on Manston's history and my own considerable experience as a business flyer, I remain unconvinced that any future plans will succeed.

[Herne Bay]

Thanks to all. This is much better talking about Topics about airport, routes and airline business.
That's what the forums for, Why I joined thanks.

[catflaps]

You don't have to swap spit with each other to have a decent debate.

Here's how to analyze the situation. Infratil took over a year ago. Fitzgerald said that he wouldn't be surprised if it was as big as Prestwick within 5 years. A year on and how have they done? Are they on target ? What were their targets? The truth is that they didn't go public with any targets and so, you can't accuse them of failing. All you can do is look at the pathetic levels of current business and speculate about how rapid the growth is going to need to be in future years to bring them up to the size of Prestwick.

As the years go by with nothing happening we will all be able to see how unrealistic the original statements were. So it was with Wiggins and so it is with Infratil.

As for the line about wanting to get the infrastrucure in place before pursuing new business, I don't buy it. If they could get any new business they would. In any case, I can't see and new infrastructure being put in place. Same old terminal, same old runway, same old control tower.

No doubt some bright spark will pop up and tell me that great things are going to happen next year. To that I say, wake up and smell the coffee. People are booking their holidays now. If the new flights aren't being advertized they are missing the boat. Anyone who was seriously thinking of making money next year would, by now have their plans in place.

[foamer]

Mmmmmmm.......................
Pathetic levels of business???
I can’t remember the last day of work that I haven’t busted a gut with all the cargo coming in.
Or do we only bother ourselves with the walking cargo??
:rolleyes:

[catflaps]

You say you're busting a gut with all the cargo you have coming in. As I understand it the cargo is currently running at 20,000 tonnes per annum. By my calculations that makes about 60 tonnes a day. It barely equates to one plane per day. What are you doing to be busting a gut; unloading it by hand? And what do you do for the rest of the day?

If you're feeling stressed with this pathetic amount of cargo you aren't really geared up to handle cargo, are you?

[function]

Sounds like you are the one busting a gut.......chill

I for one am extremley grateful for being in full employment at Manston, Infratil are in it for the long run, no one is going to wave a magic wand so it turns into Stanstead overnight, I appreciate that it's a complex matter and will take time, occaisionally I'll have a have a whinge about staffing levels and conditions, but I prefer to be an optimist and think of the future.
When the airport expands there will be a lot more residents of Thanet grateful for the employment directly and indirectly and the opportunity to travel from an airport on their doorstep.
At there moment in Thanet, there is more apathy than hostility to the airport, but again when it expands a lot of people will be more interested in looking for a job than worrying whether KCC has put any money in to it.......or what has happened in the past.

[deedave]

Catflaps-

Looks like you've got the "firecrew-doubling-as-cargo-crew" on your case mate.

Guess they haven't got much else to do.

[Manston Airport]

The major factor operating cargo flights into major airports like Lhr/Lgw is the high Landing/handling fees, so therefore much better buisness sense to utilise smaller regional airports such as East Midlands.

Manston is ok for inbound cargo loads, but runway too short for decent outbound revenue loads, so major operators will steer clear.

:rolleyes:

Do you not know how long Manston runway is ? Dave it was a joke and I was taking the mick as you dont ever say anything good about Manston := Another thing is Daily papers just talk trash they make half of the stories up ;) There was a BA A319 in MSE today due to bad weather at LHR the crew were very happy with the service given to them. Thank you Jes thats brilliant news made my day :D hope the 2 airlines do turn up? As Esperia have gone quiet

James

[blazing_air]

Manston Airport

James
The runway length is 2752 metres, and it's not a bad thing that Esperia have gone quiet, in my opinion, as i have said before, the last thing kia needs right now is another start-up airline.
It's going just fine at the moment with a slow and steady increase in freight services and a few more destinations next year from seguro.
Yes it would be nice for a major loco to sign, but that will come i'm sure of it and if there's one thing i've learn't in the aviation world is the time it takes for these things to happen.
Infratil are investing into some major infrastrucure at the moment, which can only be a good thing.
catflaps and deedave thrive on pouring scorn on anything and everyone involved with the airport, but take what they say with a pinch of salt, they don't work in aviation and would rather see a housing estate out there.

[Evileyes]

To all: Play the ball and not the player(s) please. Otherwise this thread gets closed for a while to cool off.

[Manston Airport]

blazing_air

Which is 9,029FT longer then Bristol ,Birmingham International Airport, Leeds Bradford International Airport and Newcastle :p I want Esperia to work cant wait to see MD-83 at MSE just its gone quiet at moment thats all:suspect:

James

[deedave]

Evileyes-

Thank you for your intervention.

While I do not have a problem with personal jibes, they are interfering with intelligent debate.

Also, starting each post with "calm down" or "chill" is becoming a bit of tired gag.

[Herne Bay]

When you start to thing about the long term future of Airports, Rail travel will have a major inpact on short haul with the high speed lines being built over Europe. A lot of this traffic will move to rail over the next 5 to 20 years I am sure as air travel will be more expensive and higher taxed.
As for Manston it's not all about catchment area, Passengers travel 100's of miles to get to Heathrow, Gatwick to get the flight to the place they want .
I find Heathrow is a nightmare to get to, to get in, to get out.
Stanstead and Luton made it work by offering the right product.
Stanstead had a rail link built.
Manston needs to offer the right product and service at the right price, for passenger or freight. Being a small airport overheads are a lot less and a better service can be offered.
I live close to the flight path for runway 10 and noticed a lot more large jets landing in the last few weeks.
I think the new owners are in it to make money, and they are investing in the airports infrastucture.
We will have to wait and see, past performance is not a guide to the future as any investor knows.

[Barnaby the Bear]

At the end of the day, with the right routes and the right marketing. There is no reason why manston can't operate successfully with pax. I have talked about the lack of catchment on this thread before, but I think Herne Bay has a point.
I don't believe Manston will ever compete with the larger London airports, but with the right management it will probably have a future.
Maybe the management should look at trying to woe the A380 cargo operators that won't be able to use EGSS in the future! :ok:

[deedave]

OK-
No-one knows the future, nothing is impossible and MSE might survive.
But it probably won't.
With that in mind I would like to introduce a NEW TOPIC!!!

"MANSTON'S IMPACT ON GENERAL AVIATION"

Environmental issues are high profile at the moment. Aviation is right at the centre of the debate, and is being closely scrutinised.
For those of us who rely on a credible air travel sector for our livelihoods, it is essential that aviation runs a tight ship (if you'll pardon the mixed metaphor)
Politicians, journalists, and schoolchildren are all talking about "saving the planet". Schoolchildren in particular have more environmental awareness in their short lives, than I have ever had in my 50 plus years - and children are the potential aviation customers of the future.
It is essential that aviation acts responsibly, and does not develop a negative public image.

So where does an airport like Manston fit in?

Not very well I'm afraid.

Airlines and aiports will need to demontrate that they are self-supporting and necessary, and that there is a realistic demand for their services.
An airport such as STN obviously has that credibility - it is bursting at the seams and needs to expand.
Manston, on the other hand is wasting a huge amount of private and public money trying, and failing, to create a demand where none exists. There is only a skeleton demand for freight, and the pax demographic is too fragmented to be viable. The environmental PR error is compounded by the suggestion that people and freight should travel hundreds of miles by road to reach MSE. In doing these things, Manston could threaten the reputation of the whole industry. This is not the carefree 1980's - and I do not believe aviation's reputation can afford a "wayward child" like MSE in 2006.

Imagine a company and a local coucil persuading people to use their cars for extra journeys they were not interested in making - and financing it as well! The media outcry would be colossal, yet this is essentially what goes on at MSE.

Politicians are extremely media concious, and it only takes a handful of journalists to put the microscope on such goings-on to cause the usual Westminster over-reaction - Draconian laws and restrictions threatening huge numbers of aviation careers.

Unfortunately, the competitive market economy works against the industry in this situation, because the most intelligent approach would be for companies to co-operate in working out which airports are go, and which are no-go.

Once LYX gets going (a more credible pax airport), the mixture of over-capacity in this region and bad PR could be a nightmare, and could have far reaching consequences.
There IS scope for expansion in aviation, but reckless over-expansion could be a disaster. These are uncertain times, and the industry needs to be careful.

Manston is already a joke among business travellers.

If people are not careful, it could turn out to be aviation's Nemesis.

[Jes]

nemesis 
[nem-uh-sis]
1. something that a person cannot conquer, achieve, etc.: The performance test proved to be my nemesis.
2. an opponent or rival whom a person cannot best or overcome.
3. (initial capital letter) Classical Mythology. the goddess of divine retribution.
4. an agent or act of retribution or punishment.

—Synonyms 1. Waterloo. 4. downfall, undoing, ruin, Waterloo.

I'm sure that deedave isn't referring to 1, 2 or 3 (despite the capital letter), but 4 and its synonyms.

So the truth is out....Manston is going to bring down aviation in Britain.

Just wait for the announcements............

[Jes]

Lydd's Runway: 1505m / 4936ft Manston's Runway: 2751m / 9025ft

On May 16th 2003 the Queen of Denmark visited Lydd to inspect troops. She had to fly into Manston (in a Challenger) because Lydd is not an approved airport for RDAF use.

I'm sure the locals will enthusiastically support the extension of Lydd's runway, as we seem to have all the oppositionists living in Thanet.

[Rupert369]

Deedave,
You proclaim your love of intelligent debate, and then produce a post so far removed from facts and reality as to be preposterous. So, in the interests of the informed argument which you crave, a few points...

So where does an airport like Manston fit in?
Not very well I'm afraid.
Airlines and aiports will need to demontrate that they are self-supporting and necessary, and that there is a realistic demand for their services.
An airport such as STN obviously has that credibility - it is bursting at the seams and needs to expand.

Let us not forget that Stansted was, for many years, a vastly underused airport. It was well planned in that it offered capacity for a predicted growth in air traffic. Manston is currently also vastly underused, but where as you see the "bursting at the seams" of the London airports as an argument against Manston, I see it as an argument for it. The increased use of Manston will become a necessity in years to come.

Manston, on the other hand is wasting a huge amount of private and public money

To my knowledge, only the Eujet failure and the flights to Norfolk Virginia were / are funded by KCC. These are specific airline / operator ventures from the airport, and not subsidies for the airport itself. Your claim is not justified.

The environmental PR error is compounded by the suggestion that people and freight should travel hundreds of miles by road to reach MSE.

Much of the freight that MSE attracts would otherwise be flown to Ostend, and then driven to the UK. This represents an environmental advantage. Furthermore, for many of the citizens of Kent, driving to Manston is a shorter journey than driving to a London airport.

Imagine a company and a local coucil persuading people to use their cars for extra journeys they were not interested in making - and financing it as well! The media outcry would be colossal, yet this is essentially what goes on at MSE.

As I have demonstrated above, this is untrue

Once LYX gets going (a more credible pax airport), the mixture of over-capacity in this region and bad PR could be a nightmare, and could have far reaching consequences.

What over-capacity? There is currently only ONE daily flight serving Kent, which has a population of 1,600,000 people, the Lyddair service to Le Touquet. Compared to almost every other region in the country, there is a phenomenal lack of provision for passenger flights leaving Kent. In time, I am sure that MSE will attract the standard Ryanair flights to Dublin / Derry etc. and grow from there, and its capacity will become important. We may see more and more freight flights flying into Manston in order free up slots for passenger traffic elsewhere.

If people are not careful, it could turn out to be aviation's Nemesis.
Jes has already pointed out your interesting use of the word "Nemesis." I believe that rising fuel costs and taxation, increased awareness of the impact on the environment on cheap flights, and, above all, congestion will prove to be aviation's nemeses. Manston can ease the latter of these factors, and could prove to be an important link in the aviation growth we will see in the next ten years.
Rupert

[Jes]

"What are the short term financial prospects for KIA?
Because of KIA's administration, it has no current freight or passenger business. It will take some time for these markets to be developed. Infratil has a long term view on KIA and is prepared to absorb operating losses for 3 to 4 years."
Infratil, in August 2005.
Let's just leave them to get on with it. Rumours and news are fine, but I'm really tired of the same old stuff being constantly trotted out.

[Herne Bay]

Passing MSE today noticed the old Jet suport hanger has been branded DAS Air Cargo.
Someones moved in ? who's next ?

[Manston Airport]

OK-

Once LYX gets going (a more credible pax airport), the mixture of over-capacity in this region and bad PR could be a nightmare, and could have far reaching consequences.
There IS scope for expansion in aviation, but reckless over-expansion could be a disaster. These are uncertain times, and the industry needs to be careful.

Manston is already a joke among business travellers.

If people are not careful, it could turn out to be aviation's Nemesis.


You talking about Lydd airport lol:) how can that be a pax airport and what with birds from the brilliant marsh's? Good to have DAS Air Cargo back at Manston :ok:

James

[airhumberside]

Manston Airport

It can be a pax airport very easily. It has daily passenger flights and although only a small operation seems to do well. And this isn't a MSE-bashing comment but it does have more passenger flights than MSE

[Herne Bay]

I find this forum has posts from people who clearly don't want an Airport at Manston, And suporters of an Airport. and some make post about whats going on at Manston.
But is this the right forum for a close Manston down forum, is this not a rumour network ?.
If you think that the place should be closed so be it, but perhaps your case which is your right to make, Would be better vented elsewere.
As I causes bad feeling as has been shown in the replys.
I joined to know whats going on.

[Jes]

"As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, to elicit certain reactions."
.
.
Well said, HB. I am an avid reader of this forum, and make contributions to some threads. The Manston ones seem to be unique in that there is always a group of posters whose aim is to undermine the financial basis of the airport; they are constantly telling us how it is going to fail. No other airport gets this treatment, and I don't see why we should put up with it.

I suggest that any posting exhibiting these characteristics be ignored - completely. MAG is a spent force in Thanet, so let's not give it any credence here.

[Rupert369]

The Manston ones seem to be unique in that there is always a group of posters whose aim is to undermine the financial basis of the airport; they are constantly telling us how it is going to fail. No other airport gets this treatment, and I don't see why we should put up with it.
I suggest that any posting exhibiting these characteristics be ignored - completely.

I agree, absolutely

[Herne Bay]

Thanks for your support.:D

[deedave]

The nature of the airport dictates the nature of the discussion!

Herne Bay - Looking through other airport threads, I can understand your frustration. If someone posted "is it going to close" questions on the LHR board it would be ridiculous.

However, Manston has had a unique, and very public recent history, and frankly, from an industry perspective, topics relating to whether it can, or should survive are more important than spotter stuff about aircraft types etc.

Before EUjet, I understand there was no Manston thread as there was very little activity.

The catastrophic collapse of the venture last year has returned MSE to its pre-EUjet levels of inactivity, but it still attracts huge levels of pprune interest because people want to know if it can, or perhaps even should, continue.

If you have an elephant in your living room, you can't just ignore it!

[Manston Airport]

Manston Airport

It can be a pax airport very easily. It has daily passenger flights and although only a small operation seems to do well. And this isn't a MSE-bashing comment but it does have more passenger flights than MSE


Yeah at the moment with Lyddair Manston will have more routes next year ;) If you have an elephant in your living room, you can't just ignore it! yeah I would I love all animals.

James

[Dont tell um pike]

Footprints in the Butter Ta Boom Tish (or am i thinking of Elephants in the fridge):confused:

[airhumberside]

Yeah at the moment with Lyddair Manston will have more routes next year ;) If you have an elephant in your living room, you can't just ignore it! yeah I would I love all animals.

James
Hopefully in the future Kent can have two successful airports with Lydd remaining in the niche role it does best and MSE catering for more 'mass market' destinations for the local Kent market and the greater London freight market

[Iainh]

deedave

You sound like someone who doesn't want an operational airport too close to you. Lydd sounds ideal.

Lydd however does have one outbound and one inbound passenger flight per day at 09:30 and 17:00. Each Trislander can accomodate 16 pax (in comfort!!!!) have you ever flown on a trislander?? Comfort and Trilander are rarely seen in the same sentence. How can this compare with two Airbus A 320's albeit only on Thursdays with a total capacity of 4 times 138 pax. I know you will retort with it depends on the load factor but with 552 seats avaliable compared to 224, Seguro/Kent Escapes/LTE could operate at 40% loads and still carry more pax than Lydd Air.

Icidentally the Trislanders are up for sale!!!

MSE have two exec departures on Friday with 24 pax on board and this will be more profitable than LyddAir.

This is not Lydd bashing or defending MSE but facts. Kent Escapes have dropped BCN next year but are trying Alicante and Malaga, two routes which worked well for EUjet. There would appear to be many who have hindsight crystal balls and are very happy to pipe up after something goes wrong. How many EUjet bashers have actually run an airline? Answers on the back of a postage stamp I presume.

I feel that I am beginning to bore now so I will conclude.

Lydd have an agressive programme ahead and they may be successful. MSE has proved that it can handle 400,000 passengers and with steady managed growth will carry pax again in the near future. Someone commented on an earlier post that Infratil had no plan. I have seen two presentations confirming a plan to carry 700,00 pax by 2009. Not earth shattering but probably achievable; 2 Million at Lydd by 2014 sounds a bit optimistic but who knows.

Lydd could learn a little from MSE. Everyone stated that no Airport ever diversified into owning an Airline. Lydd already own the golf course and a hotel on the site,does this happen at other airports??

What will be will be but I think Infratil have a better track record with Airports than the FAL group but perhaps the aviation fuel will be cheaper!!



IH

[airhumberside]

This is not Lydd bashing or defending MSE but facts. Kent Escapes have dropped BCN next year but are trying Alicante and Malaga, two routes which worked well for EUjet.
Minor point but the 3rd route is Palma, not Malaga

Someone commented on an earlier post that Infratil had no plan. I have seen two presentations confirming a plan to carry 700,00 pax by 2009. Not earth shattering but probably achievable;
Is than 70 000 or 700 000?

2 Million at Lydd by 2014 sounds a bit optimistic but who knows.
Just a bit optimistic. I would be shocked if that happenned. Lydd perhaps need to be a bit more realistic and perhaps try and get a 2nd scheduled destination such as Jersey

[Manston Airport]

I went on all three of them routes with EUjet to Alicante,Malaga and Palma and they where over 50% full when I was on them so lets hope they do even better.

James

[niknak]

How much longer can Manston survive?
Who is paying the daily bills?
Where is the income coming from?
How much money do they make?

The truth appears to be, that the aircraft movements at Manston are not sufficient to pay the bills.

I'm not a gambling man, but if I had £1000 to blow away, I'd bet it on Manston Airport not being open in 12 months time.

[Iainh]

airhumberside

Sorry about the inaccuracy of the routes.
Pax target is 700,000

niknak

The owners Infratil are paying the daily bills of course.
If you looked at their presentation on their website it did actually say when they would return a profit and from memory it was about 3 years into the project so 2 more to wait.

IH

[Andy_S]

I'm not a gambling man, but if I had £1000 to blow away, I'd bet it on Manston Airport not being open in 12 months time.
You should visit the Infratil website and download the investment presentation for Manston (I think this is the presentation that IanH refers to). I don't know whether MSE will turn out to be a wise investment in the fullness of time, and personally I have little patience for some of the more far fetched boasts made by MSE fans. But one thing should be crystal clear from the presentation - Infratil are in it for the long haul. They knew when they acquired Manston that it would take several years to bring it to profitability, and they are willing and able to support the airport during this time. You'll also note, if you read this presentation, that unlike the headbangers who ran Planestation, Infratil have an extremely balanced view of MSE - they understand that MSE faces challenges and has a number of shortcomings and constraints. Nevertheless, they still felt it was worthwhile not just to acquire, but to support it long term.
Manston will still be here in 12 months. And more.

[deedave]

Ianh-
Quote - "deedave, you sound like someone who doesn't want an operational airport too close to you"

Not true.
But what I want is not relevant here.
What is good for Thanet might be.
What is good for commercial aviation certainly is.

The comparison between the public image of MSE and STN is a useful one (ibid), for while there may be similarities, the differences are more significant, and chronology is the most relevant factor.
Archive press shows both airports being flagged as new London airports in the 1980s. STN succeeded due to location and demand. MSE did not.

Back then, environmental concerns were seen as the province of tree huggers, beardies and loonies.
Not so now.
Environmental damage is big news, aviation is implicated, and as I said before, the environmental awareness of schoolchildren - the next generation of aviation customers - cannot be overemphasised.
In 2006, any airport expansion can be tricky, but STN can make a good case due to obvious demand and good location.
By contrast, the sight of MSE turning cartwheels to persuade people to fly is embarrasing and damaging, the pax potential continues to be overstated - and the amount of money being wasted is scary.
I understand a total of £100 million was consumed from 1999 to 2005, from a variety of sources - EU grants, private investment, corporate investment (pensions!) and Kent council subsidising a Manston based airline.
The losses continue, and Infratil's losses affect the wider industry.

On a crude level, one could even suggest that PIK staff are currently subsidising MSE staff!

Is any of this Infratil's fault?

Nope.

The 3-4 year operating loss promise from last year suggests Thanet council have insisted any owners make a vigorous and genuine attempt to run MSE as an airport for a total of 10 years (to April 2009), after which they will entertain other options for the site.
At boardroom level, Infratil would be insane if they didn't want to close MSE immediately - they would make a killing on redevelopment. Unfortunately they must wait on the dimwits in Margate civic centre and their slavish addiction to the "local plan".
.
.

[Iainh]

"I understand a total of £100 million was consumed from 1999 to 2005, from a variety of sources - EU grants, private investment, corporate investment (pensions!) and Kent council subsidising a Manston based airline.
The losses continue, and Infratil's losses affect the wider industry."

I agree £100 million may have been poured down the drain but this was when the airport was in the hands of Planestation, who, it is generally agreed, were not the best. However from what I have seen of Infratil we are talking about chalk and cheese.

You will notice that Infratil did not get all excited and make any announcements about Esperia. They will not comment or leak any info until a deal is done. They do not talk the place up in order to manipulate the share price, why, because they don't need to! They have the funding and to put things into proportion, Infratil could be fined 100 million NZ$ for a deal they were trying to pull off in New Zealand. Planestation were constantly going to their bankers and shareholders for a few million here and a few million there. Things were tight and therefore the money raised was not invested in the infrastructure of the airport.

If Infratil were not serious about running Manston as an airport, they would just drag their heels for a few years and then re develop. After all Thanet Council would never know any different.

Your argument regarding environmental issues is very relevant and I am not in a position to comment as I don't know enough about the impact.

IH

[catflaps]

"The 3-4 year operating loss promise from last year suggests Thanet council have insisted any owners make a vigorous and genuine attempt to run MSE as an airport for a total of 10 years (to April 2009), after which they will entertain other options for the site."

This board gets more ridiculous by the day. Thanet District Council does not have any say over what Infratil does with the site. They have put it in the local plan but they did that years ago, long before Planestation went bust and Infratil took over. Infratil can close it down as and when they wish and can pursue more profitable development options. They can do this because it is losing money hand over fist and they can easily demonstrate that it is a no-goer. Thanet District Council can object to their hearts content but they cannot afford to take Infratil on in the courts. This would be the only route by which they could fight any alternative development that Infratil proposed. I agree with niknak. The end is nigh.

[Iainh]

catflaps.

If the end is nigh why then have Infratil spent over £7 Million on improvements and are still spending. Surely if your argument holds water they would simply do nothing to the fabric of the airport and in 12 months time say it hasn't worked. If they do this they would be at least £7 Million better off, it just doesn't make any sense.

The successful development of the airport is not just about routes, cargo tonnage and passenger numbers. Infratil want to attract aviation based companies to rent or lease land from them, although not Infratil land Avia have just built a new facility on the industrial park and I am sure more companies like this will be attracted to the area. It is a two pronged project. Passengers will bring aviation support business; aviation support will bring the passengers by offering a complete package.

I want Manston to work but I am not blinkered in any way, if it doesn't I won't lose any sleep.

IH

[Jes]

Please read message 142.
Those who ignored it are enabling the knockers to carry on with their ludicrous assertions. The Flat Earth Society makes more sense. Please ignore them, and let those that are committed to aviation discuss Manston in a positive manner.
.
Facts:
600 tons of cargo handled this week (Sun - Sat)
Faro flight arrived at Manston full on Thursday
Upgraded radar to be installed by December

[blazing_air]

Jes

I agree Jes.
Fellow ppruners stop rising to the rantings of those that having nothing else to do, but pour scorn on anthying and anyone to do with the Airport and they will stop, it's as simple as that.
Just like you would a naughty school boy ranting, if you ignore him he will stop ranting. It's the attention they seek, so don't give it to them !:ugh:

[niknak]

So Jes, if we all stop saying horrible things about Manston, it will become an overnight success will it?

For the sake of the people who earn a living at Manston, I hope it can become a success, but the facts as you state them hardly reflect a positive long term prognosis for the business:

One full flight, good news but how many full flights and what passenger numbers go through the place each day?

Considering the discounts that the airport owners have to give on landing fees to attract freight operators, then handling costs of disgorging and loading 600 tonnes of cargo - how much revenue did that earn? I am sure you have the facts at your finger tips.

Upgraded radar to be installed by the end of the year - is that the same upgraded radar which was going to be up and running by the end of the year, every year, for the past 30 months?

One hard fact I can give you is that key staff (ATCOs) are leaving Manston to utilise their skills at airports that have aircraft movements and will still be there in the imminent future. Additionally, no one with any experience wants to go to Manston because, despite reasonable wage scales, they can see what is around the corner.

Speaking to staff who work there and looking at the facts of the operation at Manston, I can only assume that Infratil are paying the bills from the Company's Group resources, not the "income" at Manston. The one thing they have on their side is that the sum they paid for Manston and anything theyve since spent, will be easily dwarfed by the money they get for selling the airport for building land when they finally pull the plug.

I note from your profile that you are a "Director", you're not a relative of King Canute as well are you?

[Iainh]

"I am sure you have the facts at your finger tips."

niknak- If YOU have the facts please share them!

Staff are leaving! Yea they probably are, and probably because the airport is not busy enough for them. That is their choice but if they live locally they will probably be back when business picks up.

I am not sure if you understand business but if Infratil are admitting that they are making a loss at present and this is within the long term plan then for once you are correct. Infratil are paying the bills from the Company's Group resources, not the "income" at Manston. Well done :D

Following on from the comments from evileyes, try to play the game not the man.

IH

[blazing_air]

[QUOTE=niknak;2895227]Upgraded radar to be installed by the end of the year - is that the same upgraded radar which was going to be up and running by the end of the year, every year, for the past 30 months?
There has never been a plan to upgrade the radar for the past 30 months.
The Radar has needed upgrading for a long time now, but no plan was put into place.
The reason it is being upgraded now, is because of the lightning strike earlier in the year, which rendered it completely useless as appose to better than nothing !, which has put it to the top of the list of "things to be done"

[Jes]

A couple of stories from Oostende Airport's site, explaining how it's good for English importers. EgyptAir are, of course, now using Manston as well.
On Thursday March 23rd, the company Tulpin Airmarketing has imported its first shipment of Egyptian peaches, produce of the new season, in Ostend. The peaches were transported by a freighter of Egypt Air and arrived in Ostend approximately 2 weeks earlier than last year.
For the Belgian, Dutch and English importers of Egyptian agricultural produce, Ostend-Bruges International Airport remains the place to be thanks to the short handling procedure and short transit times. Ostend Airport is very flexible as far as handling of agricultural produce is concerned, contrary to larger airports where there are often considerable transit times.
Egyptian Grapes season takes-off at Ostend Airport
The first Egyptian grapes have arrived in Ostend on an Egyptairflight from Cairo on Wednesday May 24th. Logistics provider Tulpin Airmarketing received the first shipment of 16.000 kg. on this sunny afternoon.
Alain TULPIN, manager of Tulpin Airmarketing, explains that Egyptian exporters choose more and more for the services of his company at Ostend Airport : "Our services do go much further than those of a standard customs agent, as we control the whole logistics chain from the departure hour out of Egypt until the delivery to the depots of English customers. Defra inspection and customs clearance are performed in Ostend, as well as preparing orders and planning the deliveries for the English supermarkets. Grapes arrive faster in the depots of English customers via Ostend Airport, than when the same grapes should land at London Heathrow. A small regional airport such as Ostend , has a lot of advantages for fresh fruits and vegetables, such as shorter distances from the aircraft to the coldstores, easy procedures on documents, punctual DEFRA services and no delay in customs procedures, as big airports suffer in these topics. Lorries are loaded in a short time and the Channel Tunnel is hardly 60 miles from Ostend. After quality control and pre-cooling at Ostend Airport, the grapes were loaded on a refrigerated lorry and offloaded during the night in South-England, where the next morning they will be delivered into the distribution."

[Iainh]

Egypt Air Cargo departing MSE today at 14:05 Local time

[catflaps]

"If the end is nigh why then have Infratil spent over £7 Million on improvements and are still spending."

Ianh. I drive through Manston regularly, and I can see no evidence of £7 million being spent on the infrastructure by Infratil. Since you quoted this figure, perhaps you could give a breakdown of exactly what this money has been spent on?

I suspect you are actually referring to the costs of running the airport. With no business to speak of passing through the airport it is easy to see how losses for the year could have reached the figure you quote (i.e. the operating costs). However, this is is not money that has been invested in the infrastructure, but money that has effectively disappeared down the toilet.

[Iainh]

catflaps

I dont have a breakdown as I dont actually work for Infratil however I was at a presentation by a senior member of the infratil team and he is not one to bulls**t. I know for a fact that the runway ends have been repaired and that a full asbestos survey has been carried out. I know you will say that this has not cost £7 million but these are the only 2 projects I know as fact. You will find that I only speak of what I know and not of guesswork or conjecture. There is probably a great deal of "invisible" work going on that we are not aware of.

You must understand that I am neither talking MSE up nor down, only facts and what I am told.

I have had dealings with the new owners and am suitably impressed with their strategy, honesty and integrity.

Some posters may not like what they hear, or are understandably sceptical, however I think Infratil will deliver a successful regional airport within 5 years.

IH

[Dont tell um pike]

CF

you need to drive slower old bean !

DTUP

[EUAir]

I don't come on this forum that much anymore as I am tired of listening to people who believe that they have knowledge as they take regular flights on business!?! And also believe that they are being 'personally' attacked by people on this forum. I for one have only ever written against somebody based on their views, which are based on opinion, rather than facts and industry knowledge, to an extent where if they believe they write alot people will believe that they are right!
Regional airports have a place, if run like a regional airport. EUjet were trying to do this in the end, with some medium haul holiday flights, hence the management buy out. Certain regional routes can make very good money with low load factors! EDI was one for MSE.
I know which airlines were also interested in the extension of MSE to a non-centralised international hub- i.e flights that don't really need to go to LHR but just 'close' to London. Also the rates that were on offer- a little more than a packet of crisps and bottle of coke, which included landing and handling. And these rates covered costs!
People never know what goes on behind the scenes, and as I have stated already at the time the airport was so close to having more than a daily transatlantic service!

[Jes]

I've been told that the following are under way:

The apron on the Northern grass is to be let (car co?). This is now completely clear, except for the AFX 747, whose days are numbered.

An above-ground fuel farm is to be constructed on the site of the lorry park at the cross-roads. This would be accessible from both land and air sides.

[monchi]

Hi,
Here a little greetings from the (ex)sister airport Lahr/Germany....

Heads up Boys, MSE will be running next year :ok:
Send us flights to the entertainment park in our area...i´ts perfect for MSE and LHA..
Sorry for my bad english.

Best Regards

Monchi

[catflaps]

"An above-ground fuel farm is to be constructed on the site of the lorry park at the cross-roads."

In your dreams, perhaps. It would never get planning permission.

[Iainh]

Catflaps

Why would it never get planning? Does this conflict with your housing estate theory?:ouch:

IH

[blazing_air]

"An above-ground fuel farm is to be constructed on the site of the lorry park at the cross-roads."

In your dreams, perhaps. It would never get planning permission.

I seem to remember this plan coming up a few years ago, and i know that it is desperately needed.
Catflaps i think you will find that above ground bunded fuel installations are seen as the norm now, as appose to underground storage tanks especially as the location of MSE right on top of the water table.

[catflaps]

Three reasons why it won't get planning permission:
1) It's right next to a busy main road and a very important road junction.
2) It's 100metres from a residential housing estate
3) It's right on top of Thanet's aquifer

There is a fourth reason, which will have influenced those who have to decide on the most appropriate site to store highly flammable liquids: Bunsfield.

[blazing_air]

lets wait and see shall we, but i'm pretty sure, given the right plan it will go ahead if that is what is being proposed.

[Manston Airport]

Well said EUAir


Yeah well said EUair :D

James

[Manston Airport]

Whats happening are EZY coming to MSE :D

james

[Twitcher]

anyway.........
Catflaps
have you driven through the airfield this week? Whatever speed you were doing you cannot have failed to notice all the civil engineering work in progress.
Fenrose are the contractor, diggers, dumpers, landrovers, men in hiviz jackets, piles of earth...............
Lots going on :p

[Manston Airport]

Just found out what MSE needs is for Bath travel to come to the southeast and have one off the Palmair A/C to be based at MSE :O I know it knever happen but it is a good idea they do brilliant hoildays and great flights:ok:

James

[deedave]

Catflaps-
You disagree with the idea that there is a "timetable" for MSE closure. Fair enough, but I offer this clarification.
Infratil say they "expect" an operating surplus within 3-4 years. Indeed, the operating performance they "expect" has data running to March 2009 - Manston's 10 year civilian anniversary. Coincidence? - I doubt it.

This word "expect" could refer to joyful anticipation, or it could be something quite different.

A deadline.

After 10 years of losses, they can go to TDC and make a cast-iron case for redevelopment without all the aggro of court cases etc, and it would only have cost them a few million in losses - chicken feed compared to to non-aviation profits on the site.

In the meantime, they MUST run MSE properly of course, and I have no doubt that the local management will run the airport to the best of their ability - including spending their allocated budget on the fabric of the place (much to the glee of various visitors to this board !). A few operators will come and go, but the much-needed profit is unlikely to materialise.

However......
Playing devil's advocate, during the dying days of EUjet, many of us on ADVFN reckoned it would last till April 06 (apart from the huge crowd of numpties who said it would last forever). Only one, lone, visionary voice said it would die in July 05 - and he was right!!

Catflaps - perhaps you also possess this vision !

[Iainh]

INFRATIL stands for INFRAstructure and uTILities. This what they do, not housing development. There will with any luck be construction on the site but I am sure it will be Aviation related and not high density housing. After all by 2009 two jags Prescott and his housing plan for the South East will be long gone!

IH

[blazing_air]

Heads up for the morning... a couple of 747's and a 767 all full of pax, diverting into mse in the morning....maybe more

[daz211]

Why the diverts and where from yyy-yyy-mse ?

[deedave]

Ianh-

Agreed on housing.

MSE might be lousey, but I don't fancy a big estate either.

Big movie studio maybe !

Could do a remake of "Dambusters"

[deedave]

OK - I don't understand this.

How do DAS air cargo operate at MSE despite being an EEC banned airline?

[Twitcher]

EEC banned?

[deedave]

Have a look at: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=247758

The EEC document is dated today.

Maybe it's a new thing.

[Jes]

BA
.
What happened to the diversions?
.
This saddo had Daisy on at 05.50, and the tower was active, so something was going on.
.
Please do tell.

[Herne Bay]

The DAS Air operating in Britain is not on the EU list, and Ppruners should be wary of the libel laws.

[blazing_air]

BA
.
What happened to the diversions?
.
This saddo had Daisy on at 05.50, and the tower was active, so something was going on.
.
Please do tell.

pre-empted weather diversions, that didn't eventually divert.:ugh:

[Twitcher]

JN121L ORLANDO SANFORD SFB Flight Cancelled
RR3211 ASCE SFB Flight Cancelled

oh well, at least they tried :)

[Manston Airport]

Hi all just heard from someone that Ryanair might fly from MSE next year is this true?


James

[Jes]

Hi all just heard from someone that Ryanair might fly from MSE next year is this true?
James
This is kite-flying in the extreme.
.
No, it is not true, as the two parties have failed to come to an agreement.

[pug]

No, it is not true, as the two parties have failed to come to an agreement.

Is this because they wouldnt re brand as Amsterdam West airport?

Seriously though MSE could have been a domestic haven for FR, airports like MME, HUY etc which could be seen too close to STN could have been considered?

[daz211]

I hear what you are all saying but dont rule it out, Mark my words.

[Manston Airport]

Ok lets wait and see :ok: is this true that DAS Air Cargo are banned from Europe? have failed to come to an agreement.
Jes do you know what that agreement was?

James

[airhumberside]

This is kite-flying in the extreme.
.
No, it is not true, as the two parties have failed to come to an agreement.
I hope this is nothing to do with the problems with PIK management at the moment. On another forum there is a long list of problems and issues with the PIK management that is seriously holding back growth there. Hopefully those problems will not also affect MSE

[Manston Airport]

I hope this is nothing to do with the problems with PIK management at the moment. On another forum there is a long list of problems and issues with the PIK management that is seriously holding back growth there. Hopefully those problems will not also affect MSE

:uhoh: Hope they dont affect Manston.

James

[Jes]

I hope this is nothing to do with the problems with PIK management at the moment. On another forum there is a long list of problems and issues with the PIK management that is seriously holding back growth there. Hopefully those problems will not also affect MSE

I guessed you meant Taxiway Alpha, so I've had a good read.
.
I have a business relationship with Infratil, and would agree that they can be difficult to deal with at times, but let's not carried away here.
.
We know that Ryanair charges for flights, and the deal put together for Manston did, I'm sure, follow that policy. With Lübeck and Prestwick dominated by Ryanair, would you welcome them with open arms at Manston? The Prestwick - Eindhoven route would have severely damaged Transavia's Prestwick - Amsterdam, so shouldn't we be pleased it fell through?
.
I know of two airlines, neither of which is Ryanair, that are in serious negotiation over Manston routes. Let's welcome the spreading of risk that Infratil are engineering.

[Manston Airport]

I guessed you meant Taxiway Alpha, so I've had a good read.
.
I have a business relationship with Infratil, and would agree that they can be difficult to deal with at times, but let's not carried away here.
.
We know that Ryanair charges for flights, and the deal put together for Manston did, I'm sure, follow that policy. With Lübeck and Prestwick dominated by Ryanair, would you welcome them with open arms at Manston? The Prestwick - Eindhoven route would have severely damaged Transavia's Prestwick - Amsterdam, so shouldn't we be pleased it fell through?
.
I know of two airlines, neither of which is Ryanair, that are in serious negotiation over Manston routes. Let's welcome the spreading of risk that Infratil are engineering.


I guess you know what i am going to say :O Do you know what the two airlines are?Yeah I would open my arms to Ryanair even if they do a :mad: service I would open my arms to any airline who wants to fly from Manston.

JAmes

[Jes]

I guess you know what i am going to say :O Do you know what the two airlines are?Yeah I would open my arms to Ryanair even if they do a :mad: service I would open my arms to any airline who wants to fly from Manston.

JAmes

Yes, but I'm not saying.
.
You're not running a business.

[Manston Airport]

Yes, but I'm not saying.
.
You're not running a business.

Bugger :ugh: :O No but I am intrested in the goings on at Manston :D

James

[Wellington Bomber]

Seriously though MSE could have been a domestic haven for FR, airports like MME, HUY etc which could be seen too close to STN could have been considered?[/quote]

3hrs by road is quite close to Humberside, NOT!

[Manston Airport]

Seriously though MSE could have been a domestic haven for FR, airports like MME, HUY etc which could be seen too close to STN could have been considered?

3hrs by road is quite close to Humberside, NOT![/quote]


3hrs you sure how about 5hrs. Is there any more news on that airline that was ment to start from MSE?

James

[pug]

3hrs by road is quite close to Humberside, NOT!

It would be about 30 mins in the air to STN, plus the trains serve the same side of London.

If a London flight was to work it would be best to the south, as i suggested MSE is in an ok place, the type of place FR would take over and call 'London Manston' or something.

[Herne Bay]

With the new dommestic high speed trains which start in a few years time from Ramsgate a Rail Link would give a transit time of about an hour to London, less to the new stations at Stratford and Ebbsfleet.
Worth thinking about ?.
There are a lot of rumours about new airlines, I parked for a while this morning at MSE and heard some. lets wait and see.
I do think the airports done well to get back MK and get DAS in and Egypt Air Cargo in, we should see a lot more flights in the run up to xmas.

[catflaps]

"There are a lot of rumours about new airlines, I parked for a while this morning at MSE and heard some. "

Having passed through the airport myself today I can well believe that you all stood round swopping "rumours." There certainly wasn't anything else to day because there was nothing using the airport.

Interesting "information" obtained directly from a representative who was present at this week's airport consultative committee. When the Airport Director was asked about the "rumour" about a fuel farm he told the questioner that he shouldn't listen to rumours. Looks like someone has been using Pprune to post porkies. Was it the same person who posted the porkie that Easyjet were coming to Manston? I think we should be told.

[Twitcher]

Having passed through the airport myself today I can well believe that you all stood round swopping "rumours." There certainly wasn't anything else to day because there was nothing using the airport.
Not strictly true, there were two cargo arrivals today. Agreed not a busy day but I feel I must nitpick as it seems that is all you do.

[frostbite]

Well, I heard a rumour they are going to turn it into a theme park.

[Manston Airport]

I hear a EAF 732 my favorite Airline is coming into MSE on sunday hope its a good time then I can go there by train.

James

[Herne Bay]

The Esperia web site seems to coming back to life again saying flights from Dec 2006.
anyone know whats going on ?
I know the web site has never been much good. But the old EUJET building has a Esperia logo in a window, the Airport must know whats going on.

[HZ123]

The airport can surely only stagnate further. Despite all the rumours the field is still and will remain to far from London. I could not understand anyway why you are going to come out of London with 4 major airports to travel from - to Ramsgate to go where exactly. EUjet tried and it was clear to all that the catchment area is not large enough or interested enough to travel from there. Lets hope that I am entirely incorrect.

[Manston Airport]

Does anyone know how pax the EAF 737-200 was today?
James

[Herne Bay]

THANKS Will not reply to any more

[MDIS]

Just to put the record straight, Infratil are talking to Easyjet and Flybe, but that doesn't mean anything will come of it.

Esperia website is far from alive, maybe something up and running for Summer schedule 2007.

HZ 123. 400,000 pax flew with EUjet. Southampton started with 300,000. There are enough pax who would use MSE if the routes and schedule are right.

[Manston Airport]

THANKS Will not reply to any more


? what no more for manston or CF & DD:confused: :uhoh:

James

[HZ123]

MDIS I cannot see your point SOU has been going ever since and has operated pax services for the last 40 years. Manston does not enjoy that distinction and has only ever been a bit part player.

[MDIS]

HZ123

I worked at SOU when the new terminal was completed. MSE has proved that 400,000 pax would use the airport in the first year. My point is that SOU only had 300,000 in its first year at the new terminal which is far smarter than MSE.

If MSE can attract 400,000 in year one with only basic facilities there should be a future as a regional airport handling 1 Million pax.

MDIS

[Manston Airport]

MDIS I cannot see your point SOU has been going ever since and has operated pax services for the last 40 years. Manston does not enjoy that distinction and has only ever been a bit part player.

But am I not right that a few airlines have pulled out off SOU and gone to BOH Air Berlin and a few charters?

Easyjet at MSE :hmm: Thought they would foces more on LGW?

James

[deedave]

LYX have pulled a PR coup over MSE.

TDC and MSE have constantly refused an Environmental Impact Assessment.

LYX actively commissioned one and have passed with flying colours, according to local rag. Guess they can now market themselves as the "environmentally friendlier airport". Bird strikes no problem, runway extension ok etc.

In same rag - Tony Freudmann (Norfolk Virginia consultant) telling tourism types that MSE-Norfolk will bring bring £20m tourism revenue to Kent.
Nice enough chap, but I do remember attending public meetings when he was at Wiggins, when he predicted something like 3m pax at MSE by 2005!

Also....
1) Can't comment on SOU, but EUjet acheived pax figures through promo and freebies. For a clearer idea of PAX potential at MSE, look at Seguro load factors since spring 2006 - not good.

2) Actually, 2 cargo landings IS a busy day at MSE!

[luvinit]

2) Actually, 2 cargo landings IS a busy day at MSE!

Crikey, do my eyes deceive me.......DD admits Manston was busy :ok:

[MDIS]

DD

SOU started at new terminal with the following:

Air UK F27s to and from Guernsey and Jersey
Aurigny with trislanders to Alderney
Air France Express to CDG
KLM Cityhopper to AMS
Manx ( British Regional) BA Express with J41 jetstreams 29 seats and £300 return to EDI, GLA, BRU, MAN,. Then moved up to 50 seat Embraers.

A LOCO with the right routes and the the right aircraft could do well at MSE.

MDIS

[Manston Airport]

2 cargo landings IS a busy day at MSE!


And there was a Passager flight by my favorite airline EAF:ok:

James

[daz211]

And there was a Passager flight by my favorite airline EAF:ok:

James

How can EAF be anyones favorite airline, do they still fly 737-200's and
1-11's, they sometimes filled in for RYR at STN a few years back and they looked rought then.

[blazing_air]

daz211

Have to agree with you there daz211, when it came in the other day, thought it was a kick back to the seventies.
The engines are tiny compared to modern 738's and the ground crew couldn't even find a ground pin to fit !!

[Manston Airport]

How can EAF be anyones favorite airline, do they still fly 737-200's and
1-11's, they sometimes filled in for RYR at STN a few years back and they looked rought then.


Any airline can be someones favorite I.e Cargo ,Charter, LCC :ok: no there 1-11 went back in 2002 due some cr*ppy EU law. The Old girl you saw blazing_air (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=112112) AH is there oldest 737 200 but still in very good flying condtion.

James

[EGMH]

Infratil's September report.
Kent International handled over 2 million kilos of freight in September, the highest amount since acquisition. The 2,052,000kg compares favourably with August's 1,959,082kg, which was also a record. Most of the freight was carried on scheduled services by MK Airlines and Egypt Air, with the throughput of both carriers increasing.
No mention of the Kent Escape holidays...

[Jes]

CAA website shows the following pax in August, which had 10 flights, so divide by 10 for mean pax load.
.
Barcelona 220
Faro 1047

[catflaps]

"Kent International handled over 2 million kilos of freight in September"

Most proper airports measure their throughput in tonnes. 2 million kilos equates to 2000 tonnes. If you can get 100 tonnes on a 747, this equates to 20 plane-loads. Presumably, the planes come in full of one thing and go out full of something else. I make that 10 in and 10 out. "30 days hath September." - I make that one plane every three days.

What does the guy who unloads them by hand do on the other two days? With throughput like that you don't just need someone to scare birds off the runways.....you need someone to clear their nests away as well. Let's hear it for the guano-man.

[Herne Bay]

Reading the last post.
How do you get 100 tonns of soft fruit and Veg into a 747

[Dont tell um pike]

very carefully..............

At least the figures are going in the right direction and that should continue on the run up to Christmas.

DTUP

[deedave]

Not surprisingly, I consider myself an MSE pessemist these days.
However I confess, I did expect that with such a low capacity on offer, demand for Faro would exceed supply in August.
I am surprised it didn't.
Even when being conciously pessimistic about MSE, I end up being a naive optimist!

[blazing_air]

Reading the last post.
How do you get 100 tonns of soft fruit and Veg into a 747

Herne Bay
Cargo aircraft are configured to carry large aircraft pallets or Unit Load Devices (ULD'S). This will normally take up all of the main deck, where you would normally be seated in a passenger a/c and also the front and rear belly holds.
100 tonnes is a normal load for a/c such as the 747 - 200 and 300 series that you see coming in and out of manston.
They will be built from floor to ceiling to fit the contour of the aircraft, so no space is wasted.
The presumption that catflaps makes is not strictly true in that up until recently mk have brought loads in, but ferried out, but in the last couple of weeks they have picked up more business and at least one flight a week goes back out with a load.
Hope this answers your question :)

[deedave]

OK, I'm not the brightest bloke in the world, and there has been a lot of conflicting information.

Please will an (intelligent) person confirm.

Are DAS air cargo banned from flying in and out of Manston or not?

[Manston Airport]

OK, I'm not the brightest bloke in the world, and there has been a lot of conflicting information.

Please will an (intelligent) person confirm.

Are DAS air cargo banned from flying in and out of Manston or not?

DAS Air are using two Gemini DC-10 aircraft in Europe and the remaining DAS fleet are flying in Africa until the ban is lifted.

James

[deedave]

Are the DC-10's part of DAS regular fleet or are they using another carrier?

[Manston Airport]

Are the DC-10's part of DAS regular fleet or are they using another carrier?


No they are not part off teh Das fleet the airline is called Gemini Air Cargo

James

[Jes]

Saw this on another board:

"Did anyone read the interview with one of their managers talking about the potential of the Kent deal? Basically reiterating the point that, given the value of airports servicing London, long term upside potential is massive, making it a good punt. My feeling is that in years to come there's a good chance that we could be looking back asking how they managed to buy such a strategic asset for basically next to nothing."

Does any ppruner know which interview this was?

[catflaps]

It was an interview with a guy who doesn't realize what is going to happen to the price of oil when the Yanks pull out of Iraq (not long now).

[deedave]

Had a look at DAS shed today. Presumably not operating while DAS A/C barred from Europe.

Suddenly realised I had forgotten all about Air Atlanta - Whatever happened to them? Did they quit when Planestation went bust? Their old shed looks derelict.

Also, does anyone know anything about this rumour that MK are under investigation?

[EGMH]

There's a DAS DC-10 inside the hanger which I presume they're working on. The ban came in one day after it arrived. Not sure what they'll do with it?

Air Atlanta periodically work at Manston. Earlier in the year(Feb-July 06) all their 747-200's came in for their interior service. Same every year. Activity for 6 months and then it'll go quiet for 6.

[catflaps]

Are you sure it's in the shed? I heard it flew out after the ban came into effect.......something about this being allowed because it wasn't a "commercial" flight. Didn't make a lot of sense to me at the time. Either there are safety concerns or there aren't.

[EGMH]

5X-JOE was still at MSE last weekend was the information I received so unless it's departed since then?

[MDIS]

Deedave

Air Atlanta moved out of their two sites in Ramsgate and Manston and moved into the new Avia building on the Industrial Park next to Cummins Diesel. They also took over the old EUjet engineers unit airside at MSE and still use it as a line maintenance base when aircraft come in for servicing and a clean up. Usually following the Haj.

MDIS

[Jes]

CAA website shows the following pax in August, which had 10 flights, so divide by 10 for mean pax load.
.
Barcelona 220
Faro 1047
September provisional figures show, for 8 flights, the following -
Barcelona...278, so mean rises from 22 to 35
Faro..........986, so mean rises from 105 to 123
These figures might have been polluted (i.e. increased) by bizjet charters to/from Faro.

[undiemole]

Also, does anyone know anything about this rumour that MK are under investigation?

Can anyone clarify this ??

[deedave]

If you're referring to the original post in "Rumours and News", it's still there under "MK Cargo".

[blazing_air]

5X-JOE was still at MSE last weekend was the information I received so unless it's departed since then?

Nope it's still there, in fact it was towed out of the hangar today to carry out engine runs and a compass swing.:uhoh:
It's good news for Egypt and MK though as they seem to be picking up the extra DAS freight for the time being.

[thrax]

Gents,

With DAS in trouble, MK Airlines AOC and the new partnership with a well known UK forwarder (not ANA) - things are about to become a whole lot brighter for MSE. The question is ' Are they up for it?'. MK Airlines are on the verge of increasing exports by 300%.

[berrs003]

any news on pax airlines that are in discussion with Infratil ??

i heard korean air cargo could be making a move from stansted to manston?

thanks :ooh:

[blazing_air]

berrs003

Haven't heard that one before, but it would be great to see another operator transferring from STN like Egypt Air. Obviously doin something right.

[daz211]

Not sure if im right and im might well be wrong !
but I thought Korean air cargo were banned from STN
after the crash a few years ago.
please forgive me if im wrong but im 70% sure:bored: .

[Jes]

Berrs003

Are you a pal of James?

My research shows that Korean operates from LHR.