Dodgy Netjets contract/paying arrangements is bringing NJE pilots in deep trouble

[hawkerpilot]

I have allways been affraid to post things before but what has happened to me and a number of other pilots has to be known to collegues and to those who want to join.

Currently I am under investigation by the tax department for what they say is a unauthorized workagreement contruction.

Most Netjets pilots have a Isle of Man contract even though the company is registered in Portugal. This to avoid paying social benefits.
Most pilots are being payed via the cayman Islands, this is also done to hide traces.

However, myself and collegues in other European countries are getting more and more into trouble and having to hire lawyers to start defending themselves.
As no tax is being paid on the Isle of Man, and the pilot is living in the EU, and there are no traces of social benefits being paid, several departments are trying to raise those taxes in the country where the pilots is living.
However it should be Netjets paying these benefits and not the employee.

Therefore we are investigating the possiblillities to start a lawcase against Netjets to get a legal European Contract with social benefits paid and with a pension arrangement and medical insurance. Everything by the book.

We will also be questioning Unions in Europe to assist.

In the meantime we advise newcomers Not to join until there is certainty about being able to get a legal contract that is not bringing you into trouble.

For myself I have decided to leave and am looking for another job, because I don't want to be involved anymore with this kind of a operation.
Sadly I will leave many fine collegues behind.

[netjets]

You have to pay tax somewhere...

When I worked for Netjets I classed as a self employed contractor for tax reasons. I declared my earnings and after some deductions for running my 'business' I paid my tax and social security. All above board and very tax efficient, I made less money when they bought in the PAYE.

The problem is that some people don't even try to pay tax and then they get caught out. Hawkerpilot, I think someone at interview or indoc told you that your tax affairs were yours to sort out, we all have to pay some tax and I don't think your lawyers will get Netjets to pay your tax and social contributions for you.

Good luck with the job hunt...

[EatMyShorts!]

Hi netjets,

it is not about tax, but only about social benefits. Luckily I am living in a country where I do not need to pay social insurance etc. but only tax. These systems don't work anymore anyways and I rather use that money for my own future.

[CL300]

I do not know where you are living, however,

you are not a little kid income taxes HAVE to be paid somewhere ! ) :=

This is what everybody knows now I will suggest that you should continue this discussion in the Netjets private forum, since even if you are angry about things, these should not be brought into public forums.

On top of this you are leaving the company, it is sellfish and irresponsible to throw this in public.. Glad that you are leaving, Team spirit is not with you or it is highly egocentric. :mad:

[south coast]

why shouldnt it be discussed in the open...?

the point is, if you deduct tax off the nje salary, it is pretty average in comparison to other operators in the industry.

i know there are only 2 things for sure in this life, we die and we have to pay taxes, and mine our taken at source, so no problem for me.

[EatMyShorts!]

Hello???? Did ANYONE here get the point????? It is about the social security stuff, this is NOT any part of a tax!
Of course everyone is paying the normal income tax, that is clear to "hawkerpilot", too. And no-one should pay more than income tax, the social security stuff should be voluntary.

[Smeagel]

This is what everybody knows now I will suggest that you should continue this discussion in the Netjets private forum, since even if you are angry about things, these should not be brought into public forums.
On top of this you are leaving the company, it is sellfish and irresponsible to throw this in public.. Glad that you are leaving, Team spirit is not with you or it is highly egocentric. :mad:


Oh puurrlleeeaaase.

The private crew forum is the best thing that ever happened to NJE mangement. If the public could see some of the things written in there their hair would curl.

CL300. Why should this not be discussed in public? Are you saying that anyone thinking of joining the company should not be allowed to know about this? Why? What is your motive?

Nobody would dispute that we all must pay our taxes somewhere but as EatMyShorts says this is not about tax. As you have mentioned it though what are your feelings toward an employer who gladly releases information to a tax department about an employee without that employees knowledge and when the company were not legally obliged to do so? This should tell you (again) how much NJE cares about it's crew and their wellbeing.

If indeed you are a NJE employee I can only assume that you are relatively new there. Let's see how you feel in a year after you have been on the receiving end for a while.

On the other hand if you do not work for NJE I would suggest you know little about the subject.

[hawkerpilot]

Eat my Shorts got the point CL300!! I know I have to pay income tax and that is what I do.The Point made by the various tax departments is (and my collegues from different countries have had similar reactions) is the social security stuff. As Netjets does not contribute to social security/benefits it is a illegal contract , being based in a European country. The only solution would be if we all register as independant company and send an declaration. But that is not happening and THAT is the point. Netjets do as if they give you a normal employercontract but the whole thing is a scam. The taxdepartment say that IF you have an employercontract, working in the EU for a EU based company, you have tp pay social benefits within the EU. The employee pays a part and the Employer pays another part. The return to you is social security, pension and PROTECTION.
Because we pilots have accepted an illegal contract(you are supposed to know the law right?) we are also being accused and under investigation. That is the problem.
Netjets should give us a normal emplyeecontract and yes, it is going to cost them money but then he they fly european aircraft and have their offices in europe so they have to follow the european rules.

[hawkerpilot]

I would like to make a correction on my first quote"Sadly I leave many fine collegues behind".
I should be "sadly I leave many fine collegues behind except the Cl300 and the people like him.

So if I understand it correctly CL300 we should keep al these things hidden from the public? And by discussing this we are "egocentric" ?
This is not the 18th century any more.
We want to discuss things to get things improved, and we should do it in a constructive discussion with pro's and contra's. Everybody is entitled to participate but don't start your first reaction accussing someone you don't even know.
I never spoke up. Now I do and many will follow. I am not afraid anymore about being fired because I will be going soon, though if they change things I might decide to say, but I doubt it being allready in this company for a few years and knowing their promises...

[CL300]

Oh puurrlleeeaaase.
The private crew forum is the best thing that ever happened to NJE mangement. If the public could see some of the things written in there their hair would curl.
CL300. Why should this not be discussed in public? Are you saying that anyone thinking of joining the company should not be allowed to know about this? Why? What is your motive?
Nobody would dispute that we all must pay our taxes somewhere but as EatMyShorts says this is not about tax. As you have mentioned it though what are your feelings toward an employer who gladly releases information to a tax department about an employee without that employees knowledge and when the company were not legally obliged to do so? This should tell you (again) how much NJE cares about it's crew and their wellbeing.
If indeed you are a NJE employee I can only assume that you are relatively new there. Let's see how you feel in a year after you have been on the receiving end for a while.
On the other hand if you do not work for NJE I would suggest you know little about the subject.

LoL....

The contract is ****, yes, It is legal only under the british juridiction under the legal ground of "External services". For all the other countries it is not. Well then you have the option to walk away after you had it in your hands after the indoc no ?
You chose to sign this contract for the good and the worse, it is an adhesion contract, which is legal in some countries, not quite in others.
I did work for a lot of companies during my career, most of the anglo-american operator are indeed using this type of contract and sometimes with no social coverage like BUPA or the likes and guess what ? It is still legal....
The Netjets contract as it is may not suits everybody; and I will tell more even a full European contract with all the protections would not suit everybody either.. All these retired people from big airlines and some armed forces whom are using netjets pay as pocket money ?
Today's Netjets contract is the best because :
first it is not going to change soon except if something major occurs (look in jetblasters what it is said about it),
second in case of a dispute the so called 'employee' will win win hands down at least in 5 countries in Europe. ( I'm sorry my previous pilots where coming only from those countries and I do not know the specifics of the other 20 europeans countries).

I hope that you are having fun where you are now, I hope that people whom are dupping **** on their actual company in public wil leave soon; because all what is written in pprune should be told face to face with the management. ANYONE with such a concern should not fly before everything is clarified for them and that they accepted it or resigned from their position.
If those people do not have the courage to speak up their problems have an easy go in poluting the atmosphere, and even if crew representation is necessary, it is designed to be a buffer between all the discussion and especially this one.

FYI, I know Netjets for more than 10 years and not only NTA, I was (my company) a shareholder of Netjets, and now guess what ? I'm flying in Europe for NTA !! I know both sides, the 'customer' contract, the pilot contract both sides, a 'touch' of management in LIS and the like, I have my opinion and my analysis of the last 25 years of corporate flying :{ :}

The door is wide open for people who do not want to stay, for the others, fight and express your opinion within the company and not in a public and/or private forum which is read only by an handfull of people and not the proper ones regularly.

Fly safe.

[Smeagel]

LoL.... You think this is funny?

The contract is ****, yes, Further down in this post you say "because all what is written in pprune should be told face to face with the management". So when did you tell them the contract is ****? How many times in your ten year association with them did you say this?

Well then you have the option to walk away after you had it in your hands after the indoc no ? You know full well that nobody gets to see their contract before indoc. To go on the indoc course they must have resigned their last position. So what choice do they have when they see the contract?

You chose to sign this contract for the good and the worse, So did you but now you say it is "****".

Today's Netjets contract is the best because...... ....because it is ****?

first it is not going to change soon except if something major occurs How do you think things will change if NJE management are allowed to mistreat their staff in secret? The Teamsters at NJA shamed the company into reforming by putting up large advertisments outside fbo's and picketing shareholder meetings. Would that company have changed its ways without publicity?

because all what is written in pprune should be told face to face with the management. Please look at the point above. How many times in 10 years have you told management your contract is "****"? You must have told them, everything written in PPRuNe must be said "face to face", no?

even if crew representation is necessary, it is designed to be a buffer between all the discussion and especially this one. Crew representation is the LAST thing management wants. At the moment they divide and rule. When the representation comes will you stand up and say "I do not want a pay rise/better vacation/better conditions. I signed my **** contract and I told everyone to shut up therefore I do not deserve what they have earned for me"? Of course you will.

Who are you to tell people where they can and cannot discuss these issues? May I suggest that if you dislike the subject simply ignore it.

[CL300]

Dear smeagel,

when quoting me , you highlighted the essence of Netjets contract : it is the best because it is worthless, ****ty with no grounds for someone ex-UK or ex-portugal. This is where this company is outstanding.

If you are a kind of old timer ex-BA , cathay, airfrance or the like, that you have 5 years to kill while flying, why would you bother ? AN "illegal" contract is beautiful.

If you are 1500 hours PA34 low timer with a lot of debt to clear after having paid you CPL/IR/ME etc.. Why would you bother after you had reach the minimum total for selections at the above mentionned airlines ?

If you are an ex-Airforce guy with pension and benefits why would you bother either ?

Let's face it, people with some experience, wife and kids at school are bothered and this is human being, but for a start they should not had a go for Netjets if so bothered, or turn 180° and do something else, you have 6 months probation in your contract, use it ! even so the previous contract were 3 years contract use the term if you are not happy ! If one's stays it is because he/she is happy full stop !

I did not sign the "deed of variation" because that was not why I chose Netjets for, nethertheless I have material to defend myself if **** happens. They know it, I know it and everybody lives together happily :O

I am an IPA member, and I did update my position to tell them I was working for NTA/NETJETS/ whatever. This is not the point, the social part of the contract could be better or far worse, I have dozen of friend working on contracts for various operators who do not have the advantages that Netjets can provide, nethertheless there is room for improvement and I'm daily working towards this, and I still say that a public forum is not the best place to deal with it. The best hidden secrets are sometimes the one's that work best ! ;)

Cheers !

[susoal]

not in a public and/or private forum which is read only by an handfull of people and not the proper ones regularly.
Fly safe.[/QUOTE]


REALLY....and I am assuming you consider yourself a proper one, ehh!!!!

I would recommend you no to talk about people you do not know, and I am sure you do not now many poeple on this forum....We all have different backgrounds and much to your surprise, A lot of people here might be more qualified to talk than you are.....:\

[erikv]

I was told during my interview that I would have to sort my own tax and social contributions. This was 2 Months before I resigned my previous position and 3 1/2 before Indoc. From someone who joined in January, I know that NJE now send the contract for review before Indoc. Nothing hidden or secretive there.
Yes, the salary comes from the Cayman Islands, but the moment it arrives in your bank account it is visible. No real traces to hide there, don't you think?

Here in NL, you are still required to pay tax but you are exempt of social security. However, you can choose to contribute and be covered. Like eatmyshorts I prefer to use the money for myself. I know of colleagues who state that they are taxed in the IOM. As social contributions are paid with tax, they are not covered and can be caught out. The company has made it very clear when I joined that we are responsible for paying taxes and social contributions ourselves. I have no problem with that, but do agree that this way the overall package is not the best in the world. Fortunately this seems to be getting some attention from management.

I'm disappointed to see this on a public forum. Not for legal reasons, but it is an open invitation to a journalist looking for sensation. A cover page article in a national news paper would not benefit any of us.

Erik.

[CL300]

not in a public and/or private forum which is read only by an handfull of people and not the proper ones regularly.
Fly safe
REALLY....and I am assuming you consider yourself a proper one, ehh!!!!
I would recommend you no to talk about people you do not know, and I am sure you do not now many poeple on this forum....We all have different backgrounds and much to your surprise, A lot of people here might be more qualified to talk than you are.....:\

To clarify, I was talking about the Jetblasters forum not pprune..

[CL300]

I was told during my interview that I would have to sort my own tax and social contributions. This was 2 Months before I resigned my previous position and 3 1/2 before Indoc. From someone who joined in January, I know that NJE now send the contract for review before Indoc. Nothing hidden or secretive there.
Yes, the salary comes from the Cayman Islands, but the moment it arrives in your bank account it is visible. No real traces to hide there, don't you think?
Here in NL, you are still required to pay tax but you are exempt of social security. However, you can choose to contribute and be covered. Like eatmyshorts I prefer to use the money for myself. I know of colleagues who state that they are taxed in the IOM. As social contributions are paid with tax, they are not covered and can be caught out. The company has made it very clear when I joined that we are responsible for paying taxes and social contributions ourselves. I have no problem with that, but do agree that this way the overall package is not the best in the world. Fortunately this seems to be getting some attention from management.
I'm disappointed to see this on a public forum. Not for legal reasons, but it is an open invitation to a journalist looking for sensation. A cover page article in a national news paper would not benefit any of us.
Erik.

well, he is a new comer and it makes sense... another wording but as accurate as it can be....
Do completely agree with you.

[hawkerpilot]

Ok guys, found this stuff from a pprune discussion in 2004(see below) Basicly we are re-discussing things brought up in the past.That is a sad conclusion. Things WILL NOT CHANGE.They will keep throwing cookies at us to keep the folks reasonable happy. But in the meantime they keep on filling their pockets. It will be take it or leave it in this job. I have made up my mind and will soon hand in my resignation.

FRom feb2004:
I meet Net Jet crews from the left side of the pond on just about a weekly basis. The two major threads running here are baffling to them. Other than the griping legally required to maintain a current licence they like the place, the equipment and most of the work practices.

The problem facing all the NJE cheerleaders here is their resolute refusal page after page after page to answer any question in a straight forward manner. This is actually a polite way of saying ducking, diving and consistently, pointedly and egregiously obscuring the truth.

Earlier this week I spoke face to face with a PPRuNer and asked for the most concise and brutal analysis of the issues being purposely obscured - the ones most important to those considering employment. The reason? PPRuNe is for the benefit of pilots and not companies.

The post by Kelly Hopper was the response I received. Note that the regular suspects have not refered to it, refuted a single word or rebutted any point whether historically or in terms of current arrangements. Digs and sneering are a semantic null - devoid of meaning and discounted totally here at the Towers.

The Air Luxor AOC and standard FTL's are a fact.

Generic Portugese FTL's are a fact.

The utterly err, unique NJE ummm, arrangement is a fact and a particularly interesting one in the light of the Crossair Jumbolina report. Something that would prove very interesting tested in employment, civil or criminal law. Something the legal section of the Portugese authorities should be looking at pretty sharpish to cover their own arses.

Let's sum it up. NJE got out of the FTL's required by all other AOC operators in extremely mysterious circumstances. Working for NJE is actually a contract job with no employment law comeback.

Any sane, experienced aviator would be a fool to take the blandishments offered by supposed Net Jet employees as anything other than rose tinted honeymoon whisperings or the ravings of the terminally ambitious.

We've had vast amounts of wasted bandwidth while the two most critical issues for pro's have been intentionally avoided time after time. FTL's and the contract.

Anyone caring to rebut that point will discover the joys of cut and paste thrown back in their face. They will aslo have counter the findings of the Swiss accident investigation insisting on culmulative timing including transport and other duties undertaken prior to flight.

Finally, we at the Towers have to make it utterly clear the NJE are facing contract disputes taken to law at a rate a magnitude greater than we have ever seen at any airline.

Caveat Emptor

Regards

Followed by:

PPRuNe Towers
Dep Chief PPRuNe Pilot
(IC Lavs & Dunnies)
posted 7th February 2004 22:55
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Flight time limitations are a matter of record.

No NJE employee has every given an answer on these limitations. Re read the threads if you have any doubts.

The Crossair report has made extremely clear the JAR/Europs views on cumulative hours.

The UK CAA has had the drafts for many months due to the aircraft type involved in the accident. New methods of auditing all hours of duty including travel and between companies are flying around the various authorities.

Balpa are running a database due to the numbers now involved in litigation.

Let's see those who actually believe any of their writing regarding improving things. Tell pilots reading these threads straight:

Who employs you - the legal, responsible and answerable entity detailed in your contract.

Until that question can be answered reliably anyone considering applying to NJE is gaining less employment protection than a contract pilot out in the third world.

Best pilots in the world or simply the dumbest??

The history of this site is littered with 10 page threads on employment at companies. The one's on the Britannia's, the Monarchs and many others die out in a couple of days. Have a look at the ones that go on and on and on for weeks and months. There are five at the moment and many more from the past.

8 years of running this place tells me this: Smoke + fire = 10 page plus topics.

FTL's as I said at the outset are a matter of public record. They and the contracts are the dirty little secret missing from all these months of enquiries.

It really makes you wonder at the hostility consistently bandied around at those that left the company. I strongly suggest those considering applying take an hour our so to reread every single word published in the last 6 months. Not one word has been edited and the lack of honesty from NJE employees is breathtaking.

I am disgusted at the attacks on pilots who have left NJE from employees who have spent a cumulative 14 pages avoiding answering any question on contracts or flight time limitations.

Regards to all
Rob

PS A private forum should be running out around Easter.

Are you the journalist or an unfortunate pilot with a 3rd world contract?
http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.pprune.org/forums/report.php?p=1186112)

[morescalps]

Big Posters at the FBO...

If there is nothing wrong with the contract etc why does it always come up?

Corporate Manslaughter is an interesting concept-

[CL300]

Big Posters at the FBO...

If there is nothing wrong with the contract etc why does it always come up?

Corporate Manslaughter is an interesting concept-


Because people want in a GA world an airline type contract.....

[erikv]

Our FTLs state a maximum of 55 hrs per week, the UK CAA's state a maximum of 60 hrs. This is offset by some things that are less luxurious. Give and take.

BTW, did you know that the 30 mins closing time after duty is not a legal requirement? But we do get them.

It's all give and take. As CL300 said, it is not an airline. If you're unhappy then maybe you should leave indeed. I'm happy, and I am confident that things are improving. It is a slow process, but it is there.

Erik

[EatMyShorts!]

Hi Erik,

we'll talk again in 1 year when you are exhausted :ouch:

Look, we are not asking for golden contracts, we are asking for decent and competetive contracts that will constantly attract competent pilots and not just 1500TT-buddies. Don't misunderstand me, they are fine people, but they have such a hard time to cope with our rythm of life and with our operation that sometimes you are alone on the flightdeck!
Regarding the average pilot experience in this company there's a significant discrepency between what NJE posts on its website and what the reality is. We are still on the safe side but eventually we are getting into dangerously shallow waters where this ship might not be able to swim anymore.
If you want to have experienced people in this company you need to offer a non-dodgy contract and show and actively live a respectful treatment of your colleagues. At the moment it seems that middle and lower management do not tell the truth to upper management about what is going on on a daily basis. It is exhausting to keep on fighting against various departments, the flow of communication is bad.

To put it into one sentence: Basically I like this company, but to make it a company to stay for a while (or even forever) many things need to be changed radically, it is a question of mentality - this could be such a great company!!!

[netjets]

Just had lunch with a mate of mine who has just started with Netjets, it suits him well and he will gain some great experience there. He is happy.

BUT.............nothing has really changed since I joined 7 years ago. All this hope is quite touching really.

Netjets is run by bean counters and they know the cost of everything but the value of NOTHING. Never have, never will.

Good luck to you poor souls.

[Smeagel]

erik.

The problem with the regulations is that they are written with airlines in mind. Crew show up 45 minutes before daparture, aircraft is fuelled and warmed up by ground crew, paperwork completed, ready to go. Now tell us how your day starts?

Proper airlines would count your travel on day one. Those five hours difference between 55-60 ar easily eaten up on day one in NJE. Have a look at a split duty day with no rest accomodation, duty finishing on blocks and starting again at departure time (no ground crew remember). Suddenly the sunny picture you paint has a few clouds in it.

As EatMyShorts says, see you in a year when you've been consistently rostered with a 1500 hour newbie who has had minimal training and you have had minimal rest for six months. I tell you my friend, everybody changes their view once the honeymoon period is over.

[erikv]

I'm not wearing pink glasses and I'm not saying everything is perfect. But for those who like a little more adventure than shuttling between the same few destinations, the downsides may just be part of the package.

There is definitely room for improvement in terms of an onshore contract, payscale and FTLs. But I see that this is getting attention in Lisbon and I also appreciate that we don't have the same people in management compared to three years ago. They have realised that there is a need for improvement, but things don't change overnight. Communications are improving and a dialogue is starting with the W.O. project.

While we are waiting for this to materialise, I think we should maintain a balanced picture to the world. The first few posts on this thread are not going to help bring in sufficient newhires, which in turn is reducing the chances of getting 6/5 in the future.

Erik

[hawkerpilot]

"The first few posts on this thread are not going to help bring in sufficient newhires, which in turn is reducing the chances of getting 6/5 in the future. "

Erik

So Erik,
We should lure these new pilots into our sh*t ,unknown to them, so that you can have your 6/5, the company will be laughing with remarks like these, better said, you are pretty selfish.
No, if you want to get the best, you must first accept to go through the worst.
Only when they get really short on pilots will they realise that things will have to change.If they don't have a problem why should they care?
You are either still a youngster in this company or have hit your head against a bedpost when you got waken up by opearations for a very early wake up call......

[FormerFlake]

There is no real difference for the people on the ground in Lisbon.

You give up your life in whatever country and move over without seeing a contract. Maybe 4-6 weeks later you finally see your contract, what are you going to do if it sucks? You have sold your house etc, you are pretty much comitted. So you stick with it while recieving ZERO training (this is begining to change in some departments) only to find out all is not straight forward.

You first contract is valid for 7 months and they can let you go at any point until 15 day before the renewal date. Not sure how that works when you receive no training, have vague Terms of Reference, there are no SOPs to follow and no formal performance interview proccess. After you first 7 months you then sign another temporary 7 month contract (no one tells you this, you have to ask the right people) where the same rules apply.

So for 14 months you are in limbo and it would be unwise to fully commit to life in Portugal until you have your permannet contract. This is no way to treat employees. Hopefully this will improve with the new head of HR and the CEOs efforts to improve things.

[erikv]

Hawkerpilot,

I don't think we're in sh.t. Is it the company or your tax situation that has made you this bitter? Because I think it's not bad at all, I am quite happy to encourage others to join (note that I WILL tell them it is NOT perfect).

Things have started to change, so there is no need to put a whole lot of pressure on management. The message has come through clear. Increasing the pressure artificially by deterring newhires will hurt us, our hardworking colleagues in the office and our management. My message to those who consider joining is this: if you'd be happy with the current package, you will like it even more in the future. As FormerFlake ackowledges, there are efforts to improve.

Erik.

[hawkerpilot]

Things have started to change, so there is no need to put a whole lot of pressure on management. The message has come through clear.

Dear Erik,
I have believed that for years, I wanted this to get better because I liked the job. Every now and then when people were completely fed up (again), they would throw us a few cookies to keep us happy again: The 1st of july this will change, the 1st of jan we will pay you a bit extra; Now were are going to have a safetycomitee, THAT will change for you, you can speak up now..(we all know what a farce that has become, people report less then before due to the fact that who speaks up, get's punished)..etc. etc...... the grey beards amongst us have seen it come and go, some lost a significant part of their salary because they "suddenly"got another contract.others were forced to leave because they were to critical, others were accused of things they had not done, no trial no discussion, you are out. We lost some really nice collegues.And these were no gossipstories , this was firsthand because it were our friends. You know there was a time in Netjets, before you joined that we were just a small group of people, so we knew what was happening. Many accepted the sh.t because most of us were layed off or fired due to bankruptcy of established companies.That was the reason netjets could grow, there was plenty of experience out there.
You erik have not been here long enough to remember when they had send us a new contract (which was allready effective 2 months earlier), changing our 6-5 into 18 months, their was no discussion :you sign it or go.
I can go on and on but you will see that all these little thing will add up to the big picture and it suddenly strikes you what years you wasted...
Now aviation is booming you should grab your chances. Get yourself a proper job before it all goes downhill again , I have seen that happen allrady a few times being in this stuff for allmost two decades.
Netjets offers no future, no long term plan (10 year max) no decent arrangements when you are to old and sick or fed up to fly.
well, fill in the rest yourself. as long as people know what they are getting into and still join ,fine, at least they are better informed then what I was years ago......and then this whole discussion makes a lot of sense and saves other from making a big mistake.

[winkle]

when i was in the process of leaving i used to tell the pax i was leaving and also if i knew the pax, the reasons why i was leaving. i didnt whinge to them or make a drama i just told them i felt myself going down hill in terms of culminative fatigue. that is to say 18 days or more a month on the road with totally inadequate leave is not a player. i have seen nj pilots around the bazzars and they look knackered. i for one would not like to have spent a HUGE amount of dosh on a share and then be flown by people who were suffering the hidden effects of long term culminative fatigue. even when i was leaving some of the sales people i had on board would say the pilots worked 6/5 i made it my business to let them know the truth. i really wanted nj to do well and be part of that team but to take advantage of pilots like they did was off side. look around you its a pilots market.